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Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

Castled

Terrarian
How are Beenades supposed to be balanced? They have been changed over the years for Queen Bee to drop less, but even then, they are still pretty much an "Instant Win" button for any Pre-Hardmode boss (Especially the last one), only requiring a few dozen of them. I think the only way to balance them is either decrease the number of bees spawned, or make them yet again harder to obtain.
 

Mine®

Skeletron
I didn't read whole comments to see if anyone had told this or not (it was 70 pages), But I gonna tell it:
The most upset thing in 1.4 for classes other than melee is that they didn't got a brand new weapon upgrade like zenith. Zenith is OP and cool. But it doesn't mean that there can't be an end-game item for magic users, rangers, or summoners. There could be a complex crafting tree for every class, like a last prism upgrade for magic users, S.D.M.G upgrade for randers, and a more powerful sentry (or minion) for summoners.
This way, everyone could enjoy new weapons in 1.4 without changing class :) .
 

SsIras

Terrarian
I didn't read whole comments to see if anyone had told this or not (it was 70 pages), But I gonna tell it:
The most upset thing in 1.4 for classes other than melee is that they didn't got a brand new weapon upgrade like zenith. Zenith is OP and cool. But it doesn't mean that there can't be an end-game item for magic users, rangers, or summoners. There could be a complex crafting tree for every class, like a last prism upgrade for magic users, S.D.M.G upgrade for randers, and a more powerful sentry (or minion) for summoners.
This way, everyone could enjoy new weapons in 1.4 without changing class :) .
There was a very big talk about this a few pages ago, I recommend reading it. You can search for "Zenith" in the forum if you're having trouble finding them.
 
Now I've posted in this thread about having an Endless Rocket 1 variant for a couple times but never fully gave an explanation so here it is:

Using launchers are (at least for me), very intimidating. Intimidating because you would always run out of ammo. Yes, I know that it's supposed to be the most damaging, expensive, and risky ranged subclass, but I think rockets need an endless variant. Imagine using a launcher against a boss/group of enemies, when suddenly, you run out of good rockets, without any basic ones to spare, unlike with guns or bows, through the musket pouch and quiver. And they aren't cheap. With the new happiness system, rocket 1's are cheaper, true, but getting good damage on a launcher requires special ammo, which is either: 1. Still expensive; or 2. Really hard to farm.

I was actually looking forward to this before 1.4 came out, seeing that more types of rockets were to be added in the game. But I can't say I'm disappointed, as it's still ok.

Reasons to add Endless Rocket 1 (Pouch? Idk)
  • As a means to use launchers when good rockets run out, because launcher-using rangers would aim for Rocket III's/Mini Nukes/Cluster Missiles anyway, which wouldn't ruin the classic ranger drawback of having to farm/buy to get ammo.
  • Most launchers have no chance not to consume ammo, and even with armor and/or buffs they can still use up a lot of rockets anyway.
  • Celebration Mk II in the endgame has an insanely fast fire rate which would ruin your mini nuke supply (because it's the endgame and there's no reason to not endlessly use it, since you need to constantly fire to hit targets anyway, but this issue is not as big of a deal compared to the first launchers you obtain).
  • Rocket 1's aren't that strong compared to other rockets and are like the wooden arrows or musket balls of guns and bows.
  • You can still damage yourself anyway, so it doesn't take away the riskiness from launchers and probably increase the risk from using them, which is kinda fun.
I know this thread is about item rebalancing and stat changes, and you specifically said that the creation of new items aren't likely to make it into the game, but with all due respect, an endless rocket variant probably isn't too complicated to add into the game, since rocket 1's already exist.

And if you think it's too drastic of a buff/change in general, here are some suggestions:
  • It would be craftable with a Post-Plantera crafting station, like the Autohammer instead of the Crystal Ball, to as far as the Ancient Manipulator, so it wouldn't be accessible right off the bat.
  • Or purchased from the Cyborg for a really expensive price after an event is completed (like the Martian Madness), to make it harder to obtain.
I hope this can solve the problem with launchers, make them less intimidating, and more usable in general. Thank you very much.
 
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Isil`Zha

Terrarian
however the underground desert is much more difficult than the underground tundra.
The issue I have here is not only is it more difficult than the underground tundra; as an area, it is the most difficult area. It's less hassle going through the post-planetra dungeon or jungle temple. Underworld isn't as bad either - plenty of space to maneuver around in.
 

Zario777

Terrarian
The issue I have here is not only is it more difficult than the underground tundra; as an area, it is the most difficult area. It's less hassle going through the post-planetra dungeon or jungle temple. Underworld isn't as bad either - plenty of space to maneuver around in.
I disagree. It's a tough challenge, but once you get the hang of not disturbing rolling cacti or antlion nests, it's much easier to deal with. The Hardmode Dungeon has enemies that can take you out in 2 hits before you even know where they are coming from (Sniper, Rocket Launcher, most of the mages, etc). Even if the cacti can kill you in one hit in Master Mode isn't enough to warrant a nerf to the Underground Desert. A buff to the items to compensate would be fine IMO
 

CrabBar

Official Terrarian
I disagree. It's a tough challenge, but once you get the hang of not disturbing rolling cacti or antlion nests, it's much easier to deal with. The Hardmode Dungeon has enemies that can take you out in 2 hits before you even know where they are coming from (Sniper, Rocket Launcher, most of the mages, etc). Even if the cacti can kill you in one hit in Master Mode isn't enough to warrant a nerf to the Underground Desert. A buff to the items to compensate would be fine IMO
Buff to the items will be a complete 180 to what was done in 1.4 (which, I guess, isn't too bad, just a tad of wasted resources), yet it won't solve underground desert being a complete chore to go through. Sure, you can somehow stealth through, use phasing weapons to clean it once and forever, or simply die two dozen times with spinose structure/antlion mandible/sand up one place. It won't cancel the fact that in current form underground desert is more trapped place than jungle temple which was supposed to be actual trap boogaloo, and harsher than any pre-hm biome in comparison (evil biomes, jungle, dungeon, underworld) which are supposedly later in progression.

Just, nerf stats of everything to Snow tier and make cactuses less of a game over. That's it, pretty much. Underground desert is extremely invasive for something with such characteristics, it should either be hard to avoid but low punishment, or easy to avoid but huge deal if not managed properly, not both.

And to repeat the point, yeah, a player can avoid all desert's hazards if they want to, including tomb crawlers, but it's not fun process at all, even if the rewards would have been considerably better than they are right now.
 
Buff to the items will be a complete 180 to what was done in 1.4 (which, I guess, isn't too bad, just a tad of wasted resources), yet it won't solve underground desert being a complete chore to go through...underground desert is more trapped place than jungle temple which was supposed to be actual trap boogaloo, and harsher than any pre-hm biome in comparison (evil biomes, jungle, dungeon, underworld) which are supposedly later in progression.
I've said this before but, the Underground Desert is only as difficult as the player allows & if you submit to the gimmicks, it'll certainly be frustrating. However, a person playing on Master Mode who isn't Metagaming shouldn't have an opinion that effects progression or assumes anything to be a reflection on an issue that needs to be fixed. If you're a player on Master Mode, you should be Metagaming, period. Also, it's important to note that the Cat Statues are in the UG, which I think justifies it's difficulty spike even more.

Side Note: Most the traps in Underground Desert can be disarmed with bombs, which isn't the case in Jungle Temple, it's a false equivalent.

Just, nerf stats of everything to Snow tier and make cactuses less of a game over. That's it, pretty much. Underground desert is extremely invasive for something with such characteristics, it should either be hard to avoid but low punishment, or easy to avoid but huge deal if not managed properly, not both.
The Cactuses in Underground Desert are extremely easy to avoid. As another player said already, they can even be used to your advantage, which adds a layer to strategy that didn't exist in Terraria before. I don't want features like this stripped away, because some players are allowing their frustration to cloud their judgement. This entire area is a giant puzzle, something quite special added to Terraria, it needs to be left alone, for the most part. Slightly buffing the subpar Weapons should be more than enough, the area itself shouldn't be nerfed. 🙅‍♂️🍹

And to repeat the point, yeah, a player can avoid all desert's hazards if they want to, including tomb crawlers, but it's not fun process at all, even if the rewards would have been considerably better than they are right now.
I personally enjoyed solving this puzzle, it's an area in the game that requires you to think about your tools & your options. I know that this kind of game-play isn't for everyone, but, Underground Desert is an optional area, if I recall correctly, you don't need to come here to progress the game forward, unless you're a Summoner (it's still very much optional though).
 
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ppowersteef

Paladin
I know that this kind of game-play isn't for everyone, but, Underground Desert is an optional area, if I recall correctly, you don't need to come here to progress the game forward, unless you're a Summoner (it's still very much optional though).
What would a summoner need from the Underground Desert more than other classes? I don't recall any item dropped there been summoning related.
 
What would a summoner need from the Underground Desert more than other classes? I don't recall any item dropped there been summoning related.
@ppowersteef & @SsIras (since I see you liked the post), If we're Metagaming here, a Summoner will likely find the Cat Statue useful & the Magic Conch. It can be argued that they are essential Master Mode tools, in addition to getting Tomb Crawler banners as early as possible. 🙄🍹
 

SsIras

Terrarian
@ppowersteef & @SsIras (since I see you liked the post), If we're Metagaming here, a Summoner will likely find the Cat Statue useful & the Magic Conch. It can be argued that they are essential Master Mode tools, in addition to getting Tomb Crawler banners as early as possible. 🙄🍹
I dunno, I get that Summoners have low defense and Bast Statue is a way to fix that, but both these items are good for all classes. Well, I get it anyway.
 
I dunno, I get that Summoners have low defense and Bast Statue is a way to fix that, but both these items are good for all classes. Well, I get it anyway.
I only point it out because a lot of common complaints in the game are easily fixed with already existing items; especially for Summoner Class, which arguably has the easiest time of all other Classes in the UD. Being able to warp to the Ocean Biome, on command, for a Summoner is also invaluable. Every Class can benefit, yes, but who benefits the most... is a topic I rarely see discussed here enough. Which leads me to believe that most of the suggestions are shortsighted, even if it sounds offensive to some people.
 

CrabBar

Official Terrarian
I've said this before but, the Underground Desert is only as difficult as the player allows & if you submit to the gimmicks, it'll certainly be frustrating. However, a person playing on Master Mode who isn't Metagaming shouldn't have an opinion that effects progression or assumes anything to be a reflection on an issue that needs to be fixed. If you're a player on Master Mode, you should be Metagaming, period. Also, it's important to note that the Cat Statues are in the UG, which I think justifies it's difficulty spike even more.

Side Note: Most the traps in Underground Desert can be disarmed with bombs, which isn't the case in Jungle Temple, it's a false equivalent.
Most areas in the game are as difficult as the player allows them to, some to the extreme degree block phasing enemy for crimson to make getting hearts risky when. That doesn't really have an effect on how pleasant it is to explore through the area (and sometimes even is used to justify unfair quirks, since you can just play around them).
Master Mode being meta only? Well, not disagreeing with that I guess. The first half left me mildly confused though, what are you trying to imply there?
So-called Cat Statues sure are nice and all, but I feel like you over-dramatize the effect of 1.25 Warding or 0.625 Ironskin Potions. Regen from campfire is more beneficial, much easier to get in sufficient quantities yet is not considered that vital either.

Also, if we are going to literally compare Temple to UG Desert point by point, you can't cut down rolling cacti by Grand Design, which is arguably a lil more convenient and has more range than bombs.

The Cactuses in Underground Desert are extremely easy to avoid. As another player said already, they can even be used to your advantage, which adds a layer to strategy that didn't exist in Terraria before. I don't want features like this stripped away, because some players are allowing their frustration to cloud their judgement. This entire area is a giant puzzle, something quite special added to Terraria, it needs to be left alone, for the most part. Slightly buffing the subpar Weapons should be more than enough, the area itself shouldn't be nerfed. 🙅‍♂️🍹
They are easy to avoid. Almost every trap is easy to avoid. It's about how much of player's thought is dedicated to a single task of avoiding that hazard (which is a tad too high given the tendency of oneshots if you move through the area faster than careful snail). Also yes, cactuses do have a redeeming quality as they can cleave through the enemies as well. Except it's not the entirely unique layer of strategy, lava exists. A bit different to manipulate, less interactive but more persistent, and most importantly, it doesn't drastically scale with difficulty modes. Cactus can be nerfed without losing that quirk.

I personally enjoyed solving this puzzle, it's an area in the game that requires you to think about your tools & your options. I know that this kind of game-play isn't for everyone, but, Underground Desert is an optional area, if I recall correctly, you don't need to come here to progress the game forward, unless you're a Summoner (it's still very much optional though).

I guess it is a fine puzzle by itself, it just needs to be less punishing honestly. Just to not discourage an average player too quickly.
Optional area isn't an excuse, however. You only ever need Underworld and Jungle to finish the game (unless you count Temple in order to get altar and Dungeon's entrance to summon cultists). Does that mean other dozen of biomes can be as nerve-wrecking as they want?

Also a nitpick about Summoner: it may be, just may be, that the biome assisting Summoner the most is actually a reflection of how lacking Summoner's content is, to the point where every bit helps immensely, as opposed to other classes that can shrug off chunks of content with little to no impact.
 
Most areas in the game are as difficult as the player allows them to, some to the extreme degree block phasing enemy for crimson to make getting hearts risky when. That doesn't really have an effect on how pleasant it is to explore through the area (and sometimes even is used to justify unfair quirks, since you can just play around them).
Master Mode being meta only?
An area/ location having its identity is much more important than a players opinion on how it can be done better, especially if their previous takes on the same game were severely misguided. At a certain point, a person should be humble enough to admit that they should probably give much more though to their opinions before suggesting a massive change. You're literally going into the Lions Den with this area, that's also very optional. Because this section is very opinion based, I'll give some classic opinion myself. There's an area in Dark Souls 1 called the New Londo Ruins, it's notoriously known for it's early-game difficulty. Wanna know the funny part about this area? It's an area, years ago, that many new players cried about, saying it needs to be nerfed. Wanna know what happened a few months later? They figured out the gimmick behind the place, only to discover that the difficulty was an illusion. Dark Souls 1 is considered a classic because it sticks to its identity & doesn't cave to a players knee-jerk ego-based responses. You need to learn the game, period.

Why should you be Metagaming if you're gonna play Master Mode? You know... the fact that you even asked me this let's me know that your suggestions to game balance are dangerous to the health of the game, but, because I know that the people who like your posts are gonna try to use~ me not answering this as ammunition, here's a simple response... "any time you increase the danger & difficulty of a game, resource management becomes that much more prevalent". If you're intentionally turning the dial up to "kill me please", but you aren't even aware of your common resources, how can you possibly be taken seriously if you start talking about nerfs to difficulty? 🙄🍹

Well, not disagreeing with that I guess. The first half left me mildly confused though, what are you trying to imply there?
So-called Cat Statues sure are nice and all, but I feel like you over-dramatize the effect of 1.25 Warding or 0.625 Ironskin Potions. Regen from campfire is more beneficial, much easier to get in sufficient quantities yet is not considered that vital either.

It's not about what I think, it's about the fact the people are complaining about dying too fast, when they have resources that'll increase their survival rate that they aren't using. You can't claim that an area is too hard, when you're not even putting forth the small effort it takes to counter it. This is why the Metagaming question you asked earlier is absurd. You want the game to be harder, without addressing any of the obvious new threats you'll be facing. At the very least, take some of the bite out of your mistakes when they happen, it doesn't make any sense not to do that...

They are easy to avoid. Almost every trap is easy to avoid. It's about how much of player's thought is dedicated to a single task of avoiding that hazard (which is a tad too high given the tendency of oneshots if you move through the area faster than careful snail). Also yes, cactuses do have a redeeming quality as they can cleave through the enemies as well. Except it's not the entirely unique layer of strategy, lava exists. A bit different to manipulate, less interactive but more persistent, and most importantly, it doesn't drastically scale with difficulty modes. Cactus can be nerfed without losing that quirk.
It doesn't take much thought to blast your way directly down into an abandoned Sand House, loot the items & repeat, with your biggest worry possibly being Tomb Crawlers or Dune Splicers. Most areas have ways to deal with the gimmicks, if you choose to play into them, that's a choice, it has nothing to do with game balance.

I guess it is a fine puzzle by itself, it just needs to be less punishing honestly. Just to not discourage an average player too quickly.
Optional area isn't an excuse, however. You only ever need Underworld and Jungle to finish the game (unless you count Temple in order to get altar and Dungeon's entrance to summon cultists). Does that mean other dozen of biomes can be as nerve-wrecking as they want?
I'm not suggesting it's an excuse, you are. I think the area is just fine & at most could use for a slight boost in the Weapons you find there. Once you raid the Underground Desert, there's very little reason to return unless you want something very specific, namely Summoners. I'm not going to play into comparing this area to others, because most of the suggestions I see are attempts to strip the game of it's identity in many ways, which I'm 100% against. The area is fine as is, just slightly buff the Weapons is my stance, if anything.

Also a nitpick about Summoner: it may be, just may be, that the biome assisting Summoner the most is actually a reflection of how lacking Summoner's content is, to the point where every bit helps immensely, as opposed to other classes that can shrug off chunks of content with little to no impact.
I mean, if you're gonna Metagame, then Metagame... it doesn't make sense to compare normal progression to the numbers game. Again, the fact that a good number of you are in agreement that this... somehow makes sense, is exactly why I feel your suggestions should be overlooked. If the problem with a Class is it's durability, which can easily be addressed, "but I don't feel like it~ so please nerf", is the common attitude, I want no parts of it in Terraria. Everyone's gonna suffer in the long run if shortsighted suggestions like these are taken seriously, so I'm obligated to be the voice of reason I feel...
 
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Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
It's not about what I think, it's about the fact the people are complaining about dying too fast, when they have resources that'll increase their survival rate that they aren't using. You can't claim that an area is too hard, when you're not even putting forth the small effort it takes to counter it.
... I want to make sure I fully understand what you're saying here. Because I find it all very confusing.

"People" are complaining about Summoners dying too easily in the early game. You are saying that there are resources that they can put to use to extend their survivability, but they're not using it. And your example of this are from the Underground Desert, specifically... the Bast Statue?

For the purposes of this conversation, I am going to pretend that the 5 defense from the Bast Statue is a legitimately game-changing amount of defense (despite the fact that, especially in Master Mode, it totally is not). Instead, I'm going to focus on the fact that taking advantage of that particular item leads to poor gameplay.

90% of Terraria is spent on the move. You're going somewhere, exploring a cavernous network, digging through an area, ect.

The Bast Statue is a piece of furniture; it only gains its powers when it is sitting in a location. It's got a fairly large area of effect, but you don't have to go too far before you leave its reach.

Therefore, if that 5 defense genuinely is game-changing, if that defense is truly going to be the difference between life and death, then here's what the player has to do to keep that buff up.

They have to move in some direction (which may be downwards) until they're at the edge of the statue's AoE. Then they place a second statue. Then they go back to the first one (which may be upwards) to pick it up. Then they go back to the statue they just placed and move forward again. Rinse and repeat.

This... is not compelling gameplay. This is not fun or interesting. It's busywork. It basically doubles your exploration time by making you constantly backtrack.

Now, maybe you'll say that you should just get more Bast Statues. Except that they're not a renewable resource; you only get so many in a world. Of course, you might then remind us that you can fish them up. But even that would require spending lots of time fishing up Oasis crates. Which is tedious beyond description.

This is the epitome of "git gud" thinking: that it is perfectly legitimate gameplay for a game to force you to play in a way that you find to be profoundly un-fun. And if you don't like it, then you shouldn't ask for the gameplay to change; you merely ought to play something else.

No, thank you.

An area/ location having its identity is much more important than a players opinion on how it can be done better, especially if their previous takes on the same game were severely misguided.
I'm not sure I understand this point.

The "identity" of the Underground Desert would, to me, be defined by having traps and enemy spawners scattered everywhere on your first entry to the area. Nobody is suggesting it shouldn't have these; they're saying that it has too much of it. The goal isn't to make the area just like everywhere else; it's to make the level of its threat more in-line with other areas of the game.

Because this section is very opinion based, I'll give some classic opinion myself. There's an area in Dark Souls 1 called the New Londo Ruins, it's notoriously known for it's early-game difficulty. Wanna know the funny part about this area? It's an area, years ago, that many new players cried about, saying it needs to be nerfed. Wanna know what happened a few months later? They figured out the gimmick behind the place, only to discover that the difficulty was an illusion. Dark Souls 1 is considered a classic because it sticks to its identity & doesn't cave to a players knee-jerk ego-based responses. You need to learn the game, period.
The "identity" of Dark Souls is to be a brutally unfair game that is technically beatable. That is not the "identity" of any part of Terraria, so by that logic, the Underground Desert should be changed because its current status doesn't match the "identity" of Terraria.
 
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CrabBar

Official Terrarian
Why should you be Metagaming if you're gonna play Master Mode? You know... the fact that you even asked me this let's me know that your suggestions to game balance are dangerous to the health of the game, but, because I know that the people who like your posts are gonna try to use~ me not answering this as ammunition, here's a simple response... "any time you increase the danger & difficulty of a game, resource management becomes that much more prevalent". If you're intentionally turning the dial up to "kill me please", but you aren't even aware of your common resources, how can you possibly be taken seriously if you start talking about nerfs to difficulty? 🙄🍹
Y'know, I was about to write a constructive reply, but seems like that part hinted something crucial.

So, let's go over the list:
  1. "Why should you be Metagaming if you're gonna play Master Mode?... the fact that you even asked me this"
    I didn't ask you about this. I have genuinely agreed with that statement.
    Master Mode being meta only? Well, not disagreeing with that I guess.
    I asked you about this
    The first half left me mildly confused though, what are you trying to imply there?
    which is, supposedly:
    However, a person playing on Master Mode who isn't Metagaming shouldn't have an opinion that effects progression or assumes anything to be a reflection on an issue that needs to be fixed.
  2. Alright, let's assume it was weird on my part not quoting the exact phrase. You haven't elaborated on that regardless, at all.
  3. Yet, you had the audacity to point out my incompetence based on the question. Very mature thing to do in a discussion. Instead of pointing out where I was wrong and let me improve my vision on the game design, you decided to capitalize on your "superior" view (which, I'm sorry to ruin that, is still subjective, and as valuable as everyone's here) with cheeky response. Whatever floats the boat, I guess.
  4. Deliberately ignored my quotes about UG Desert being generally manageable (granted throwing fun out of the window, because of inflated stats) and pretend like "mad cuz bad". No. I can clear UG Desert deathless easily if I need. I don't want to because it's complete chore.
These aren't all issues, but it's enough for me to halt on arguing with you personally until a resolve is found. Consider that as your win if you want, after all, it does seem like that was the entire purpose. Peace.

Edit: It turned out to be an unintentional situation, so I'd like to apologize for disturbing the topic and hopefully continue discussing the balance without going personal. :)
 
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... I want to make sure I fully understand what you're saying here. Because I find it all very confusing.
I'm just replying to let you all know that I'm not ignoring you, but I'll be severely watering down my responses. I'll be leaving the conversation afterward. 🤔🍹

"People" are complaining about Summoners dying too easily in the early game. You are saying that there are resources that they can put to use to extend their survivability, but they're not using it. And your example of this are from the Underground Desert, specifically... the Bast Statue?
No, there's quite a number of things, but I'm not going to go over them in this thread, I already made a somewhat guide here.

For the purposes of this conversation, I am going to pretend that the 5 defense from the Bast Statue is a legitimately game-changing amount of defense (despite the fact that, especially in Master Mode, it totally is not). Instead, I'm going to focus on the fact that taking advantage of that particular item leads to poor gameplay.
You're allowed to have that opinion.

90% of Terraria is spent on the move. You're going somewhere, exploring a cavernous network, digging through an area, ect.
Changing to games pacing gives the game personality & charm, I think that's something that should be preserved. If in the the end, you all agree, then fine. I'll just forewarn you all that you'll regret it later. All I can do is hope the developers don't agree.

The Bast Statue is a piece of furniture; it only gains its powers when it is sitting in a location. It's got a fairly large area of effect, but you don't have to go too far before you leave its reach.
This is true, but I feel the response is so obvious, I'll just leave you to answer it yourself. I'll leave a hint... arena.

Therefore, if that 5 defense genuinely is game-changing, if that defense is truly going to be the difference between life and death, then here's what the player has to do to keep that buff up.
I'd just like to point out that 5 defense in early-game is considered a newer Armor tier in a lot of cases, but... if we're gonna downplay it, I'll go with it.

They have to move in some direction (which may be downwards) until they're at the edge of the statue's AoE. Then they place a second statue. Then they go back to the first one (which may be upwards) to pick it up. Then they go back to the statue they just placed and move forward again. Rinse and repeat.
That seems like a very limited way to Metagame but, okay. If that's how you see it, I won't bother changing your mind. I think, if you sit on your general analysis, you'll see the flaw in your own logic.

This... is not compelling gameplay. This is not fun or interesting. It's busywork. It basically doubles your exploration time by making you constantly backtrack.
You're allowed to see it that way.

Now, maybe you'll say that you should just get more Bast Statues. Except that they're not a renewable resource; you only get so many in a world. Of course, you might then remind us that you can fish them up. But even that would require spending lots of time fishing up Oasis crates. Which is tedious beyond description.
You're allowed to see it that way.

This is the epitome of "git gud" thinking: that it is perfectly legitimate gameplay for a game to force you to play in a way that you find to be profoundly un-fun. And if you don't like it, then you shouldn't ask for the gameplay to change; you merely ought to play something else.

No, thank you.
I mean... you're playing Master Mode though... if you all agree, I don't think there's anything else left to say. I'm almost done beating the game anyway. I'll just move on to something else if it gets dumbed-down. I'm not selfish enough to think that one persons opinion is more valuable than the 20 who are saying otherwise. I hope the developers stick to their vision, but if not, I'll just have to accept it. 🤷‍♂️🍹

I'm not sure I understand this point.

The "identity" of the Underground Desert would, to me, be defined by having traps and enemy spawners scattered everywhere on your first entry to the area. Nobody is suggesting it shouldn't have these; they're saying that it has too much of it. The goal isn't to make the area just like everywhere else; it's to make the level of its threat more in-line with other areas of the game.
You're allowed to see it that way.

The "identity" of Dark Souls is to be a brutally unfair game that is technically beatable. That is not the "identity" of any part of Terraria, so by that logic, the Underground Desert should be changed because its current status doesn't match the "identity" of Terraria.
No, it's punishing but fair... that's the Dark Souls identity. Who am I to say, if all 20 of you want the UD nerfed, maybe you have a point. I just don't agree. Enjoy everyone. *exit*
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
How are Beenades supposed to be balanced? They have been changed over the years for Queen Bee to drop less, but even then, they are still pretty much an "Instant Win" button for any Pre-Hardmode boss (Especially the last one), only requiring a few dozen of them. I think the only way to balance them is either decrease the number of bees spawned, or make them yet again harder to obtain.
Something I've said before (regarding the old Reaver Shark): If something is OP, then making it rarer is solving the wrong problem. You need either a nerf, or a higher gate.

Buff to the items will be a complete 180 to what was done in 1.4 (which, I guess, isn't too bad, just a tad of wasted resources), yet it won't solve underground desert being a complete chore to go through. Sure, you can somehow stealth through, use phasing weapons to clean it once and forever, or simply die two dozen times with spinose structure/antlion mandible/sand up one place. It won't cancel the fact that in current form underground desert is more trapped place than jungle temple which was supposed to be actual trap boogaloo, and harsher than any pre-hm biome in comparison (evil biomes, jungle, dungeon, underworld) which are supposedly later i
...
I'll agree it's difficult, but it's certainly not unreasonably so. I'm wrapping up pre-Hardmode, but once I got into the swing of it I've found dealing with the traps pretty routine. Hook+whip does for cactuses, same+minion for larva eggs (it's fun turning one against the other), and the sand traps fall to the Grand Design. ("Ooh, free actuators and sand!" :happy:) I expect the Hardmode enemies will be rougher, but unless they've been buffed hard they still won't be as dangerous as, say, Medusa, or some of the Dungeon casters.

ETA: Also, the UD has rewards to suit it's dangers, notably Desert Fossil (love them Scarab Bombs), and amber. I suspect the chest weapons could be stronger given the hazards (I was fairly late to go in seriously), but the tools are certainly handy.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
the sand traps fall to the Grand Design. ("Ooh, free actuators and sand!" :happy:)
In order to have the Grand Design, you'd have to have rescued the Mechanic. Which means you've entered the Dungeon without being murdered by Dungeon Guardians. So you're post-Skeletron.

Yes, the Underground Desert isn't too difficulty if you're post-Skeletron. But it has almost nothing useful for a post-Skeletron player, even though it's available pre-Skeletron.
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
Also to Nicol Bolas: Anything you can fish up is renewable by definition, and even after the big nerfs (crate stockpiling, Reaver Shark), fishing is effing powerful once you get serious about it, especially with Biome Crates bypassing some of the really rare chests. Some highlights:
  • Early minion long before QB (Vampire Frog)
  • Early double-jump + fall protection until you get a better version
  • Falcon Blade's still pretty good
  • Lava fishing (+ Ocean)-->Terraspark Boots (getting the Magma Stone is pretty grindy, but way better than prowling the lava caverns) which let you own the Underworld, plus lava handling -- and you can chain up from Hellbait to the Lavaproof Fishing Hook.
  • Oasis gets you those lovely tools like the Snake Charmer's Flute, plus Oysters for pearls and multiple sources for Plenty Satisfied
  • Almost all the potions you want, and Exquisitely Stuffed from the surplus catch.

In order to have the Grand Design, you'd have to have rescued the Mechanic. Which means you've entered the Dungeon without being murdered by Dungeon Guardians. So you're post-Skeletron.

Yes, the Underground Desert isn't too difficulty if you're post-Skeletron. But it has almost nothing useful for a post-Skeletron player, even though it's available pre-Skeletron.
You can do almost as well carrying a pressure plate or dart trap -- you can't ransack the wires and actuators yet, but you can clear out the sand. But yeah, if you're pre-skeletron you should at least have gotten some Jungle loot. And those Scarab Bombs are seriously useful at any stage of the game. Frankly, if you're pre-Skeletron, the monsters are still more of an issue than the traps, but if you are pre-Skeletron you can get a bunch of stuff that's really useful pre-Skeletron. (Thunder Spear!)

Also, something that took me a long time to get straight on: Dying occasionally is not a huge deal in this game, unless you're going for Mediumcore or Hardcore. You lose some coins (and you really should have a Money Trough by now), but you do keep all the loot you've picked up, which you can use on your way back in. (Even when I tried Mediumcore, it was manageable. Annoying as heck, but manageable, especially once I got a Void Bag+Vault. ETA: Yeah, post-Skeletron again.)

Pushing your way into areas that are difficult for your current equipment is exactly how you get new equipment that's well ahead of where you are.
 
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