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Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

Jota Bame

Terrarian
Hallowed hood is a prime example of this with a staggering one defense.
...and literally the best set bonus in the game for defensive purposes. Bad example there, but I see your point.

I don't think Whips are meant to be safe or used as main weapons all the time, though. The way I see it, you either get the tag on the boss/enemy with Durendal/Cool Whip and then get back away, or get a massive burst of damage with Firecracker/Dark Harvest when you see the chance. Whips are very powerful when you set them off, so I think that risk is what balances them out.

Just attack with a Repeater or whatever long-ranged weapon you have until it's safe to get up close with a Whip, I believe that was the intention behind them.
 
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Mental Mouse

Terrarian
So, why was "unreliable" part mentioned? Because caves contain wildly varying amount of Life Crystals to begin with. To be fair, new Mushroom biome layouts help immensely: they are almost guaranteed to spawn a few hearts. Other than that, one could explore underground for an hour and find 0-30 crystals. A bit too over the place for #1 vital item IMHO.
That's when you break out the spelunker potions. ;-) A lot of hearts are hidden away in isolated or cut-off caves. The new fairies also provide a good deal of help, and can lead you to hearts that are well off-screen.

I don't think Whips are meant to be safe or used as main weapons all the time, though. The way I see it, you either get the tag on the boss/enemy with Durendal/Cool Whip and then get back away, or get a massive burst of damage with Firecracker/Dark Harvest when you see the chance. Whips are very powerful when you set them off, so I think that risk is what balances them out.

Just attack with a Repeater or whatever long-ranged weapon you have until it's safe to get up close with a Whip, I believe that was the intention behind them.
They're also good flyswatters against "Goddamn Bats" (including bees, demon eyes and such), killing the weakest and tagging the others for your minions. And even the earliest are great for clearing thorns or gathering vine ropes.
 
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FLUX2226

Terrarian
Just attack with a Repeater or whatever long-ranged weapon you have until it's safe to get up close with a Whip, I believe that was the intention behind them.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik the tag bonus from whips only applies while you're still holding it in your hand (doesn't matter that much for things like the Firecracker, but still). So to me it feels like whips were in fact supposed to be a main weapon for a class that has no main weapon yet. Giving summoners something that they can use in combat without having to dip into different classes.
 

Derpling Ω

Plantera
Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik the tag bonus from whips only applies while you're still holding it in your hand (doesn't matter that much for things like the Firecracker, but still). So to me it feels like whips were in fact supposed to be a main weapon for a class that has no main weapon yet. Giving summoners something that they can use in combat without having to dip into different classes.
That's definitely not true. I just tested with the kaleidoscope and the blade staff and there is absolutely no way the blade staff's damage was getting into the 30s without tag damage when I switched weapons.
 

Jota Bame

Terrarian
Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik the tag bonus from whips only applies while you're still holding it in your hand (doesn't matter that much for things like the Firecracker, but still). So to me it feels like whips were in fact supposed to be a main weapon for a class that has no main weapon yet. Giving summoners something that they can use in combat without having to dip into different classes.
Only the "locked on" visual disappears, not the tag bonus itself. Even if you were right, my point about Whips being meant to be greedy/risky options that you use when you have the chance would still stand.
 

a31337

Terrarian
Someone's probably mentioned this, but whose idea was it to give whips such low range? For a class that's supposed to be focused on dodging, requiring players to get so close makes no sense at all. One could argue that that extra damage has to come at some risk, but summoner is already risky enough when most of its sets have such low defense to begin with. Hallowed hood is a prime example of this with a staggering one defense.
Not only that, but the tag time is at an incredibly short 4 seconds, meaning you have to actively stay within melee range for your minions to attack the enemy, thereby exposing you even more to unnecessary damage. And the tag effect doesn't allow your minions to attack enemies out of range, either: you have to see enemies for your summons to be able to attack them, which in my opinion is bull:red: because ranged and mage classes both have the ability to attack off-screen enemies, and even melee with specific loadouts.
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
This idea's basically a QoL nerf, but I'd kinda like to see the recipes for stained glass and Gemspark Blocks moved to the Glass Kiln, possibly even the recipes for bottles and glass walls. The one is "conceptually complicated" and a major moneymaker, the other is a particularly spectacular light source.... it feels "off" to just whip them up at the workbench. The bottles and glass walls just because IRL they are historically fairly skilled work that really did require glassblowing chops.
 

VDragunov

Terrarian
Oh boi, summoners are back to being a topic!

Time to bring back some suggestions about the optic staff…!

It just came to me that something that got fixed and before felt like a feature (spider minions counting as 0.75 instead of one whole minion) could work in favor of the optic staff… if done in reverse. Sure, their other stats would have to be buffed to compensate, but you're solving the iframe issue in a whole new way now: can't have that much of an iframe issue if there's less summons causing them.

It sounds simple to have half the minions with twice as much stats, but uh… I honestly don't know how that would work in practice, also, 1.5 seems like a better number (as non-summoners could have 2 summons with no accessory investment).

Doesn't solve the fact that the minions are still a bit unreliable. But it would at least make the iframe issue a bit less severe.
 

SsIras

Terrarian
Though I might agree summoner might require several adjustments, I think we are starting to get saturated with this topic, nearly every summoner weapon has been brought up multiple times, I don't think repeating those arguments will contribute anymore. We're free to make any suggestions we want, but these suggestions are getting old.
 

a31337

Terrarian
Oh boi, summoners are back to being a topic!

Time to bring back some suggestions about the optic staff…!

It just came to me that something that got fixed and before felt like a feature (spider minions counting as 0.75 instead of one whole minion) could work in favor of the optic staff… if done in reverse. Sure, their other stats would have to be buffed to compensate, but you're solving the iframe issue in a whole new way now: can't have that much of an iframe issue if there's less summons causing them.

It sounds simple to have half the minions with twice as much stats, but uh… I honestly don't know how that would work in practice, also, 1.5 seems like a better number (as non-summoners could have 2 summons with no accessory investment).

Doesn't solve the fact that the minions are still a bit unreliable. But it would at least make the iframe issue a bit less severe.
Why not rework the piercing system entirely? More and more weapons seem to be working around the usual 10 tick piercing iframes (Blade Staff is one example, Zenith as well, Razorblade Typhoon only triggers piercing iframes for 6 ticks, Last Prism triggers it for 5 ticks).
Here's my idealistic approach to a reform. There are two types of piercing projectiles: those that linger (e.g. summons, Razorblade Typhoon, Last Prism), that I will hereby call the 1st type of piercing, and those that don't. (Jester Arrows fired off a bow, Retinazer summon's lasers, Meteor shots for the first hit), that I will call the 2nd type of piercing.

The 1st type of piercing should trigger iframes of a default of 10 for the single projectile that hit it. E.g. for the optic staff, 2 Spazmatisms are ramming into the enemy. The first one bites it; iframes of 10 ticks are triggered for it. The second bites it 5 ticks after the 1st one, but its damage still counts because the iframes only counted for the 1st spazmatism.

The 2nd type of piercing should completely forget about iframes, and instead make the entities it hits register 1 single hit, similarly to Luminite bullets, then be ignored by them forever. E.g. for the optic staff again, 2 Retinazers are firing at an enemy. The 1st one hits it, the projectile deals damage to the enemy for 1 tick, and no more registers are made after that. The 2nd retinazer hits it 5 ticks after the 1st, and its hit is registered in a similar manner. For a better example, let's pick the Meteor shot bullet. If you use it with the SDMG you're going to be able to hit one enemy a maximum of 6 times, despite its firing rate allowing a much higher output.

I'm pretty sure the Binding of Isaac works with piercing bullets that way. It feels more appropriate, too. 1.4 already made minions' attacks not block your own shots, why not generalize the situation?

tl;dr iframes shouldn't apply to every single type of damage
 
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Mental Mouse

Terrarian
Why not rework the piercing system entirely? More and more weapons seem to be working around the usual 10 tick piercing iframes (Blade Staff is one example, Zenith as well, Razorblade Typhoon only triggers piercing iframes for 6 ticks, Last Prism triggers it for 5 ticks).
Here's my idealistic approach to a reform. There are two types of piercing projectiles: those that linger (e.g. summons, Razorblade Typhoon, Last Prism), that I will hereby call the 1st type of piercing, and those that don't. (Jester Arrows fired off a bow, Retinazer summon's lasers, Meteor shots for the first hit), that I will call the 2nd type of piercing.

The 1st type of piercing should trigger iframes of a default of 10 for the single projectile that hit it. E.g. for the optic staff, 2 Spazmatisms are ramming into the enemy. The first one bites it; iframes of 10 ticks are triggered for it. The second bites it 5 ticks after the 1st one, but its damage still counts because the iframes only counted for the 1st spazmatism.

The 2nd type of piercing should completely forget about iframes, and instead make the entities it hits register 1 single hit, similarly to Luminite bullets, then be ignored by them forever. E.g. for the optic staff again, 2 Retinazers are firing at an enemy. The 1st one hits it, the projectile deals damage to the enemy for 1 tick, and no more registers are made after that. The 2nd retinazer hits it 5 ticks after the 1st, and its hit is registered in a similar manner. For a better example, let's pick the Meteor shot bullet. If you use it with the SDMG you're going to be able to hit one enemy a maximum of 6 times, despite its firing rate allowing a much higher output.

I'm pretty sure the Binding of Isaac works with piercing bullets that way. It feels more appropriate, too. 1.4 already made minions' attacks not block your own shots, why not generalize the situation?

tl;dr iframes shouldn't apply to every single type of damage
It sounds to me like you want to split between damage from "multiple shots" and damage from "a single shot". But should the two Spazmaminis really be able to double-team the same opponent, given they're coming from the same weapon? That said, if they can't do so, then they should try to avoid targeting the same opponent, or at least time their rushes to avoid interfering with each other.
 

a31337

Terrarian
It sounds to me like you want to split between damage from "multiple shots" and damage from "a single shot". But should the two Spazmaminis really be able to double-team the same opponent, given they're coming from the same weapon? That said, if they can't do so, then they should try to avoid targeting the same opponent, or at least time their rushes to avoid interfering with each other.
What's the point in summoning more than 1 pair of eyeballs then, if that won't be the case? Blade staff can double-team on enemies already, but not the optic staff for some reason.
 
Not only that, but the tag time is at an incredibly short 4 seconds, meaning you have to actively stay within melee range for your minions to attack the enemy, thereby exposing you even more to unnecessary damage. And the tag effect doesn't allow your minions to attack enemies out of range, either: you have to see enemies for your summons to be able to attack them, which in my opinion is bull---- because ranged and mage classes both have the ability to attack off-screen enemies, and even melee with specific loadouts.
20200628211545_1a.jpg
20200628205523_1a.jpg


I'm sorry, I wasn't going to say anything, but this myth needs to die. I have no idea why it keeps coming up, no matter how many times I've posted my somewhat Summoner Class guide on this forum. This is simply, NOT true. Summoner Class can literally do everything every other Class can, but better, at the sacrifice of durability.
 

a31337

Terrarian
View attachment 281302 View attachment 281303

I'm sorry, I wasn't going to say anything, but this myth needs to die. I have no idea why it keeps coming up, no matter how many times I've posted my somewhat Summoner Class guide on this forum. This is simply, NOT true. Summoner Class can literally do everything every other Class can, but better, at the sacrifice of durability.
Yeah, so basically they can fight enemies that are at the very edge of your screen, maybe a little further than that. Ranged and mage classes can fight enemies that are 2 screens away from the player. What I'm saying is Summoner should be able to do that too.
 
Yeah, so basically they can fight enemies that are at the very edge of your screen, maybe a little further than that. Ranged and mage classes can fight enemies that are 2 screens away from the player. What I'm saying is Summoner should be able to do that too.
20200628205523_1a.jpg


Perhaps I didn't make the picture big enough? 🤷‍♂️🍹
 

FLUX2226

Terrarian
I'm sorry, I wasn't going to say anything, but this myth needs to die. I have no idea why it keeps coming up, no matter how many times I've posted my somewhat Summoner Class guide on this forum. This is simply, NOT true. Summoner Class can literally do everything every other Class can, but better, at the sacrifice of durability.
That still doesn't make whips more usable tho', which was the initial point. You're still better off using a ranged/magic weapon as a summoner.
 
That still doesn't make whips more usable tho', which was the initial point. You're still better off using a ranged/magic weapon as a summoner.
You're describing the Class in it's entirety though, as if it's a negative? Unless you're using Endgame - S. Tier items, you're always gonna be better off with one load-out or another. Yeah, sometimes using a Whip isn't in your best interest (or your most optimal option), or even using a certain Minion; on the other hand, both the same Whip & Minion combo might tear right through a certain Boss or enemy type... in a matter of seconds. I keep posting this for a reason, it's like people are trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole & I can't for-the-life-of-me, understand why. 🤔🍹
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
Perhaps I didn't make the picture big enough? 🤷‍♂️🍹
Wasn't the thing you're replying to the fact that summoners can't attack enemies "off screen"? I don't see any off-screen enemies being attacked in your picture.

Now personally, I think it's fine (and rather necessary) to give summons a not-exactly-long range limit. But you're trying to argue that the range limit isn't there. When it clearly is.

Can a summon fire a projectile that happens to hit a target off-screen? Yes. But that's different from saying that the summon was actually attacking that target. Which it wasn't.
 
Wasn't the thing you're replying to the fact that summoners can't attack enemies "off screen"? I don't see any off-screen enemies being attacked in your picture.
👉🙄 👉 Click Here!

Now personally, I think it's fine (and rather necessary) to give summons a not-exactly-long range limit. But you're trying to argue that the range limit isn't there. When it clearly is.
☝🙄☝

Can a summon fire a projectile that happens to hit a target off-screen? Yes. But that's different from saying that the summon was actually attacking that target. Which it wasn't.
  • The Stardust Dragon has a frequent habit of attacking off-screen enemies. Keep that in mind in case you are searching for a specific rare item drop. [source]
 
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