• For issues you find with the Switch and Console releases, please follow this link and give as much detail as possible. This is the speediest way to get info to Pipeworks and get a hotfix in the works.
  • 1.4 will bring many changes to the PC version. We strongly advise making plans to back up your worlds and players prior to updating your game. More details here.
  • Begin your search for Journey's End information here and here. Please report bugs and issues for Journey's End here.
  • For issues you find with the Mobile 1.3 update, please follow this link and give as much detail as possible. This is the speediest way to get info to DR Studios to look at your issue. Also, some troubleshooting hints here.

Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

a31337

Terrarian
πŸ‘‰πŸ™„ πŸ‘‰ Click Here!


β˜πŸ™„β˜


  • The Stardust Dragon has a frequent habit of attacking off-screen enemies. Keep that in mind in case you are searching for a specific rare item drop. [source]
Alright fine. You have a point. However, you cannot consistently deal damage with your minions to off-screen enemies, because most of the time they will come back to you instead of attacking them. Whips should make your minions attack these enemies consistently, by disregarding their distance to you, and instead focusing their attacks on the enemy you tagged, than other enemies that are closer to you. Plus, the sentry summons don't have the best DPS, and you're relying on a gimmick to deal damage rather than an actual feature.
 
Alright fine. You have a point. However, you cannot consistently deal damage with your minions to off-screen enemies, because most of the time they will come back to you instead of attacking them.
I disagree, but I also think that'd be particularly bad for a Summoner if they had no leash control over Minions & they had a tendency to abandon you at the worst times. I don't care enough about this myth to debunk it, because it'd be a bad feature if you purposely kitted yourself out this way.

Whips should make your minions attack these enemies consistently, by disregarding their distance to you, and instead focusing their attacks on the enemy you tagged, than other enemies that are closer to you. Plus, the sentry summons don't have the best DPS, and you're relying on a gimmick to deal damage rather than an actual feature.
There's quite a few ways to command your Minions & their behavior (it's up to you to learn them), but most of it depends on which Minions you're using at the time, as some have bigger priorities to do one thing, over another. For example, Blade Staff Minions will almost always act much like Infinity Rush/ Autonomous Fist (DBZ) when in use; if that's the kind of Minion Support you want. However, if it isn't & you want Minions that take priority in rushing enemies, off-screen or as soon as they are visible, you'd pick something closer to Twins Staff or Deadly Spheres Staff.

Question though, let's say I equip the Huntress Shield, right along with a Full Set of Spooky Armor, Wrath Potions & an Icor Buffed Scourge of the Corruptor? At what point does my passive DPS start being a legitimate build & stop being a gimmick? πŸ€”πŸΉ
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
Question though, let's say I equip the Huntress Shield, right along with a Full Set of Spooky Armor, Wrath Potions & an Icor Buffed Scourge of the Corruptor? At what point does my passive DPS start being a legitimate build & stop being a gimmick? πŸ€”πŸΉ
Yes, this. Even playing primarily melee, I've consistently found that having even one or two minions is a major thing, and for large parts of the game they'll be killing off a lot of enemies before they even get into range of my melee attacks. Seriously buffing and multiplying them and adding sentries makes them a serious threat even to more powerful opponents. But the thing is, being a summoner is going to require more patience. You can't expect them to kill off the stronger enemies as fast as concerted attack from the main character -- but they just keep going, and after they clear out the riffraff, they will be backing you up against the sturdier opponents.
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
Looking into debuff inconsistency today. This stuff is a hot mess. :p

That is all, I think there's a lot of good to be done here. :)
This is the spreadsheet I created of enemy immunities, along with my suggestions. There are separate pages for Hardmode and pre-Hardmode, as well as for each event. My intention with these suggestions is to resolve inconsistencies, render certain debuffs more viable by removing immunities, balance other debuffs by adding immunities to them, and add immunities to enemies which should realistically have them.

(This was created using information from the Wiki, so I can't personally attest that it is thoroughly accurate, but I trust the judgement of the Wiki editors.)

Some major alterations:
– There are no longer any enemies with universal debuff immunity, which fixes the issue with summon tag damage. Some of these enemies now have few immunities, while others have extensive but carefully-selected lists.
– Most enemies (with the exception of Underworld enemies and spirits) have lost immunity to Cursed Inferno and Shadowflame.
– Spirit enemies have gained immunity to Frostburn and Ichor.
– Crimson enemies immune to Poison/Venom now have Ichor immunity instead.
– Many Jungle enemies have lost Poison/Venom immunity (and so have spider enemies).
– Many Ice biome enemies now have immunity to Frostburn (and so do Frost Legion enemies and several Frost Moon enemies).
– Many fighters and flyers are no longer immune to Confused.
– Pirate Invasion enemies have lost Poison/Venom immunity.
– Numerous Solar Eclipse and Martian Madness enemies have lost Confused immunity.
– All Solar Pillar enemies now have immunity to On Fire, with several also losing immunity to Confused.
– Several mechanical enemies have gained immunity to Poison/Venom and On Fire, most notably the Twins.
– The Empress of Light has gained immunity to Poison/Venom and On Fire, reflecting her ethereal nature.
– Duke Fishron and the Lunatic Cultist have lost their immunities to Poison/Venom and On Fire.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
Question though, let's say I equip the Huntress Shield, right along with a Full Set of Spooky Armor, Wrath Potions & an Icor Buffed Scourge of the Corruptor? At what point does my passive DPS start being a legitimate build & stop being a gimmick?
I'm not sure I understand the question. All of the permanent items you've listed in that build are buffs for summons (or are agnostic); the only part of that build that isn't summoner gear is the weapon. Therefore, it's a summoner build.

However, it is not a pure-summoner build, because you're using a melee weapon. And discussions about the weakness of summoner builds is primarily focused on pure-summoner builds (nobody has said that summon builds don't work if you add melee/magic/ranged weapons to them). So this is kind of a non-sequitur in such conversations.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
– Duke Fishron and the Lunatic Cultist have lost their immunities to Poison/Venom and On Fire.
I think it makes sense for duke fishron to be immune to fire, you fished him strait out of the ocean and he's probably still wet and constantly spraying water attacks everywhere.
 

JohannSimm

Retinazer
I think it makes sense for duke fishron to be immune to fire, you fished him strait out of the ocean and he's probably still wet and constantly spraying water attacks everywhere.
Maybe. I was thinking of it in terms of him being susceptible to being burnt. But I see your point.

I retained his immunity to Frostburn. At first it didn't make sense to me as to why he would have it. But then I realized that he comes from the cold ocean depths, and it's implied that he's related to the Pigron, an Ice biome enemy. So I gave the Pigron Frostburn immunity to match.
 

Ilmarinen

Terrarian
How are Beenades supposed to be balanced? They have been changed over the years for Queen Bee to drop less, but even then, they are still pretty much an "Instant Win" button for any Pre-Hardmode boss (Especially the last one), only requiring a few dozen of them. I think the only way to balance them is either decrease the number of bees spawned, or make them yet again harder to obtain.
Make the bees do summon damage. Give em a penalty without summon armor and accessories but a boost with summon equipment.
 
I'm not sure I understand the question...
...probably because it wasn't addressed to you. I was responding to what @a31337 said, a totally open-ended question. At what point do you accept that you're just not using your available tools & realize that these things you think are impossible, simply aren't?

However, it is not a pure-summoner build, because you're using a melee weapon. And discussions about the weakness of summoner builds is primarily focused on pure-summoner builds (nobody has said that summon builds don't work if you add melee/magic/ranged weapons to them). So this is kind of a non-sequitur in such conversations.
I'm not interested in having this purist debate again. I was simply dispelling common myths I keep seeing, over & over again, that's it. πŸ™…β€β™‚οΈπŸΉ
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
I'm not interested in having this purist debate again. I was simply dispelling common myths I keep seeing, over & over again, that's it. πŸ™…β€β™‚οΈπŸΉ
Yeah, purism is a personal challenge -- having a "summoner build" doesn't mean you can't use any non-summoning weapon at all, it just means that your buffs and bonuses are mostly directed towards the summons, likely to the detriment of your "personal" weapon. And an Scourge with Ichor flask would be a great weapon for supporting a swarm of summons!
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
I'm not interested in having this purist debate again. I was simply dispelling common myths I keep seeing, over & over again, that's it. πŸ™…β€β™‚οΈπŸΉ
But said "common myth" was talked about in the context of a pure-summoner build. If someone's started a conversation about problems with pure-summoner builds, and you come in with solutions that involve not doing pure-summoner builds... that's not helpful.
 
Enough with the condescension, you've been removed from posting in this thread
No, were not doing this again. Enough with the amnesia games. πŸ™…β€β™‚οΈπŸΉ

Wasn't the thing you're replying to the fact that summoners can't attack enemies "off screen"? I don't see any off-screen enemies being attacked in your picture.
πŸ‘‰πŸ™„ πŸ‘‰ Click Here!

Now personally, I think it's fine (and rather necessary) to give summons a not-exactly-long range limit. But you're trying to argue that the range limit isn't there. When it clearly is.
β˜πŸ™„β˜

Can a summon fire a projectile that happens to hit a target off-screen? Yes. But that's different from saying that the summon was actually attacking that target. Which it wasn't.
  • The Stardust Dragon has a frequent habit of attacking off-screen enemies. Keep that in mind in case you are searching for a specific rare item drop. [source]
 

ConfidentlyGrim

Terrarian
I think the main problem with range with summoner class are whips. For the class with the lowest defense they don't have effective range to deal with problems. We don't even need to discuss the summoner class, they just don't have adequate range as a weapon type.
 

Ilmarinen

Terrarian
I think the main problem with range with summoner class are whips. For the class with the lowest defense they don't have effective range to deal with problems. We don't even need to discuss the summoner class, they just don't have adequate range as a weapon type.
I do think that the later game whips should have a longer and longer range. The final whip should have a range that's at least close to the solar eruption, I think.
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
This is the spreadsheet I created of enemy immunities, along with my suggestions. There are separate pages for Hardmode and pre-Hardmode, as well as for each event. My intention with these suggestions is to resolve inconsistencies, render certain debuffs more viable by removing immunities, balance other debuffs by adding immunities to them, and add immunities to enemies which should realistically have them.

(This was created using information from the Wiki, so I can't personally attest that it is thoroughly accurate, but I trust the judgement of the Wiki editors.)

Some major alterations:
...
Generally agree with these, and approve of theme-based consistency. Regarding Confusion I agree that bosses shouldn't get Confused in general. And yes, most arthropods should certainly be vulnerable to Poison/Venom, IRL insects and spiders certainly use poison on each other! Good to see that Cursed Inferno is getting (back to?) a workhorse status where it "mostly just works" (but not on most Hellspawn ;)), along with the rare and exotic Shadowflame. You don't seem to list Critters, but the Hellbait should probably be incidentally immune to fire debuffs too. Personally I'd think slimes should be easy to confuse (except boss minions), but it's arguable either way.

I do think that the later game whips should have a longer and longer range. The final whip should have a range that's at least close to the solar eruption, I think.
Right now there isn't really a "final whip"... there's EoL, late Dungeon, and Pumpkin Moon whips. But there probably should be a Stardust or Moon Lord whip....
 
Last edited:

00Banshee00

Skeletron
Right now there isn't really a "final whip"... there's EoL, late Dungeon, and Pumpkin Moon whips. But there probably should be a Stardust or Moon Lord whip....
IMO, if a final whip is to be added to the game, it should be a Moon Lord drop, since having it as a stardust weapon breaks the balance of two weapons per pillar. Also, I feel it would be better suited if the Rainbow Crystal Staff was dropped by the Empress of Light instead, it matches her theme and would make her a more summoner oriented boss.
 

a31337

Terrarian
IMO, if a final whip is to be added to the game, it should be a Moon Lord drop, since having it as a stardust weapon breaks the balance of two weapons per pillar. Also, I feel it would be better suited if the Rainbow Crystal Staff was dropped by the Empress of Light instead, it matches her theme and would make her a more summoner oriented boss.
Alternatively, make it so you can obtain 3 weapons per pillar. There was a thread going on that the Vortex Pillar should have a rocket themed weapon, a black hole launcher, and a binary star flail for the Solar pillar, although I think it should be a sword that has an ability to reflect projectiles with cooldown, like selenians do, and maybe fire a projectile or two. Plus you can already craft every single weapon that can be obtained from a single pillar defeat, on expert mode and higher. A third option would force you to choose just two weapons
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
This is the spreadsheet I created of enemy immunities, along with my suggestions. There are separate pages for Hardmode and pre-Hardmode, as well as for each event. My intention with these suggestions is to resolve inconsistencies, render certain debuffs more viable by removing immunities, balance other debuffs by adding immunities to them, and add immunities to enemies which should realistically have them.
I have my own working spreadsheet and changes planned. However, one note: some of the enemies you removed Confusion immunity for are not necessarily "Confusion supported".

The big problem with Confusion, as I've mentioned before, is that it is an AI impacting Debuff that requires manual code support for each new AI type added to it. You can't just "turn off their immunity and now Confusion works on them". I mean, you could, but they wouldn't behave any differently. They would just have the debuff and behave normally.

So part of the task with Confusion is that I need to look into which enemies HAVE that code support, and extend it to as many as possible. Ultimately, unless there are some really easy ones to expand the code to, re-coding more AI support for Confusion is not likely to happen, because its significantly more time consuming than just changing immunity flags (which is something I can do myself).
 

Mental Mouse

Terrarian
So part of the task with Confusion is that I need to look into which enemies HAVE that code support, and extend it to as many as possible. Ultimately, unless there are some really easy ones to expand the code to, re-coding more AI support for Confusion is not likely to happen, because its significantly more time consuming than just changing immunity flags (which is something I can do myself).
I get this, but I would like to note that confused flyers (including bats, bees, etc) would be vastly amusing. ETA: So would "friendly fire" incidents among confused enemies.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom