Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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I can beat Duke Fishron as soon as I get a Stormbow. It is just as unfair to compare Moon events to EoL than it is to compare everything you can get after the mech-bosses to FIshron drops. If you're good, you can skip things.
Some players would prefer to take the slower progression route and slowly improve their gear instead of jumping in to fight EoL/Fishron.
And do anyone here thinks Fishron is much harder than EoL? Because if not, then it becomes pointless to accuse EoL of being the problem, and if Fishron IS stronger than EoL, then the latter might need a buff.
Regardless, I do think that the amount of options you have post-plantera/golem was designed so you have many ways of obtaining gear to fight the pillars, the problem here is that there is so much gear you can get, you probably won't need to do all the events/bosses, and you will just be fighting them for fun, unless you really need a slower progression, but even then, a lot of weapons are supposed to have the same strenght (Betsy loot, Fishron loot, EoL loot).

I have to disagree that those situations are comparable. The Moon events are locked behind progression, unlike Fishron, and require their gear to be appropriately powerful as a result.

The biggest issue I have with the Moon events, though, is their requirement to deal sufficient damage to get to the final waves. It makes it rather difficult for low DPS classes to even get the loot they want without first getting loot from bosses that offer better loot than the events themselves do.
With bosses and other events, you have enough time to beat them, even if your damage is low, so it's feasible to beat even a boss like Fishron with a fairly weak weapon. These events do not allow for this. Either you deal enough damage or the event will end with you pretty much empty handed because the amount of loot you get from the events scales up exponentially the further you get.

If we take melee as an example and consider all weapons you can acquire up to killing Plantera and exclude Fishron, you will find that there's barely any weapons that can deal with even just the Pumpkin Moon. I mean, your best shot at that point in time is probably the Terra Blade. I mean, what else are you going to use? The Flower Pow, maybe? Or a yoyo like the Eye of Cthulu? Besides those, I can't think of any other weapon that would even have the potential to work.
For comparison, any player can go kill Golem or head into the HM Dungeon for loot just fine. Both of those are post Plantera, just like the Moon events are. If the events are supposed to be harder to get loot from, the loot's power should reflect that.

If you were to try and beat the Frost Moon as a melee character with that kind of gear... well, good luck with that.
For melee players, these events pretty much demand you to have something like a Flairon, Influx Weaver or Starlight, but if you have one, you have no reason to do the events any more because they outclass the weapons from the events, which brings us to a perfectly valid reason to compare the loot from these events to the loot from Duke, EoL and Martian Madness.
 
I can beat Duke Fishron as soon as I get a Stormbow. It is just as unfair to compare Moon events to EoL than it is to compare everything you can get after the mech-bosses to FIshron drops. If you're good, you can skip things.
Some players would prefer to take the slower progression route and slowly improve their gear instead of jumping in to fight EoL/Fishron.
And do anyone here thinks Fishron is much harder than EoL? Because if not, then it becomes pointless to accuse EoL of being the problem, and if Fishron IS stronger than EoL, then the latter might need a buff.
Regardless, I do think that the amount of options you have post-plantera/golem was designed so you have many ways of obtaining gear to fight the pillars, the problem here is that there is so much gear you can get, you probably won't need to do all the events/bosses, and you will just be fighting them for fun, unless you really need a slower progression, but even then, a lot of weapons are supposed to have the same strenght (Betsy loot, Fishron loot, EoL loot).
True, one can definitely beat Fishron as soon as they get reasonable late Pre-HM mobility (single horseshoe balloon + spectre boots + dash works fairly well for me) and somewhat reliable weapon (which, in fact, can be pre-Hardmode as well! Molten Fury works wonders, although obviously grabbing a repeater is recommended), while Fishron's wares are a lot more beneficial than mechs. Compared to that, EoL is a lot more harsh, requiring you to have at very least decent wing pair, dash and mount, as well as post-Plantera weapon. There should be almost no disagreeing Fishron is an earlier boss to beat than Empress, and it's okay: Fishron opens up earlier (Any point of Hardmode) than the Empress (Post-Plantera)
However, there has to be a reminder: both bosses are practically post-Golem tier; even Fishron is often skipped as too hard until Golem/pillars by regular players. If you can beat them, you can beat anything following up (with sole exception of mechs WHILE having abysmally low damage output: night time limitation), so they both are kind of shortcuts you can take on but likely won't unless you know exactly what to do.

Now for the moons themselves. They seem to suffer from being both too harsh and too grindy (in fact, OOA seems to also join that definition, but that's a separate can of worms). Most of the time, if you can reliably get to later waves of them, you don't exactly need the gear they provide, as you already have insane damage to clear it in first place. This is a crucial detail that separates them from mentioned bosses: you cannot as effectively play them without "proper" damage output, due to time constraints. As much as I hate throwing that term around, this is a clear example of DPS check. Personally, the only way I was able to unironically utilize their drops is to bang a wall (dying several times from swarming enemies/bosses, spawn-camping grounded bosses) with underpowered character until something of value is obtained (Pumpkin Moon has Spooky Armor and Necromantic Scrolls, Frost Moon is a bit more generous with Elf Melter, Razorpine, Christmas Sword, Chain Gun, both have higher tier wings although Spooky are easier to obtain)

And there is another thing to consider, even side bosses (let alone side events) aren't that useful since there is a defined streamline progression: Plantera - > Golem - > Cultist - > first pillar of choice.
Everything past Plantera ended up being somehow easier than Plantera itself, so the recipe for the win is to simply ignore the secondary content and go forward to Celestial weapons (well, obviously one can first grab something from Dungeon if it helps).
I can't argue it's a bad quirk since base content should for the most part be easier than extra, but it certainly does gimper the variety at this part of progression, as for the most part it's unnecessarily loading yourself for even easier time on main bosses.
And, for obvious reasons, once you come to Frost Moon with Astral Arcanum, you hardly need that Razorpine or even Blizzard Staff; same stands for other classes.

Basically, either the timed principle of Moon events has to be reviewed (simple examples: you face much less bulky foes (damage stays generally the same or a bit lower) but if you die, it's over; the event is cumulative and happens each night until you opt out), or the rewards have to be massively rebalanced so it is more worthy to come to these with already decent weaponry. Or something else, as long as it makes events have a well-received place in current gameplay.
 
This is pretty much a basic problem: If a side boss or event (or even region) can be fought before fighting main boss #X, but gives better weapons, then it represents a potential sequence break. If the side boss is made harder to match, then it can't be fought before boss #X anymore.

I think the only real answer to this is, first, to accept some such breaks as inevitable, and part of the game's overall strategy; and second, to recognize and allow for different types of player to deal with such challenges differently. As an example of this, I'll point to Duke Fishron, as the game's most "successful" side boss.
True, one can definitely beat Fishron as soon as they get reasonable late Pre-HM mobility (single horseshoe balloon + spectre boots + dash works fairly well for me) and somewhat reliable weapon (which, in fact, can be pre-Hardmode as well! Molten Fury works wonders, although obviously grabbing a repeater is recommended), while Fishron's wares are a lot more beneficial than mechs.

The key thing here, is that the way to beat Duke Fishron early is skill. If you've got the skill, you can get better weapons than the mechs, before you take the mechs. Not so much skill, and you can maybe beat him after the mechs. Compare that to what CrabBar calls Pumpkin's "DPS check" -- skill won't help there, you need equipment. Heavy arena-building might help some, but you do need to beat Golem to get at those Jungle traps. (I do wonder if Boulder Statues might change that calculus....)

ETA: In general, I'd support allowing skill or heavy preparation to let a player "jump" one tier through a side-boss or event.
 
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Ok, peharps I didn't think better of this topic. Now I kinda do see a problem with the moon events, but I think EoL as well as the overall progression shold not be touched. The issue is how completing pumpkin/frost moon is not a worthwhile task.
To remedy that, here's what can I suggest:

1. Give more points per kill for moon enemies: expert doubles the amount of point, I don't think master triples it, this should be fixed.
2. Buff weapons so no drop is disapointing: Christmas Tree Sword, Elf Melter, Horseman's Blade, Jack O' Lantern Launcher and Raven Staff all seem like a slap im the face of those looking for something like a Razorpine, if you can only use one weapon, I don't see what's wrong with making all these drops equally as good as what's best in the event.

That way, even if you don't complete the event, you will always profit of trying it once.
 
To get better weapons to use against her? Are you implying that these bosses beat themselves? I could not beat Empress until I got a Blizzard Staff.
Uh... What? I must be some kind of MvP then, because I've beaten her without event weapons, and using a winged slime mount.
 
To get better weapons to use against her? Are you implying that these bosses beat themselves? I could not beat Empress until I got a Blizzard Staff.



On pumpkin Moon, Beetle Mail + Terra Blade + Keybrand + Cross Necklace + Frozen Shield for essential gear. Frost moon was just Spectre armor + Razorblade + Heat Ray/Spectre staff, then I swapped to a Razorpine from an Everscream. Then it was just a flat surface with ground of aasphalt and a platform. Traps are a hindrance and a waste of time since they deal practically 0 damage and also restrict your movement.

I can see that the problem here is your approach. You tried Facetanking and outDPSing bosses on a difficulty where enemies have 50% more HP and Damage than on Expert mode, of course that won't work so well. Flameburst sentries are weak and inaccurate, and they are even more useless here since Flameburst Sentries can't really aim up and Pumpkings are fought almost entirely in the air. And using something with short range (Stellar Tune) as your main weapon in a event where you are spammed by projectiles isn't a very good idea.
I've skipped the Pumpkin/Frost moons in literally every single one of my playthroughs, only completing them after defeating the Moon Lord. The weapons they drop just aren't worth it in my opinion, when better options are available. The weapons are balanced for Classic gameplay after all.
 
I've skipped the Pumpkin/Frost moons in literally every single one of my playthroughs, only completing them after defeating the Moon Lord. The weapons they drop just aren't worth it in my opinion, when better options are available. The weapons are balanced for Classic gameplay after all.

That... has nothing to do with what I said there.

The events are still easier than the Empress, and their weapons still shouldn't outclass those dropped by her. It is a real issue that these events are super skippable, but that's not something you are going to fix by just buffing the more underpowered weapons anyways.
 
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That... has nothing to do with what I said there.

The events are still easier than the Empress, and their weapons still shouldn't outclass those dropped by her. It is a real issue that these events are super skippable, but that's not something you are going to fix by just buffing the more underpowered weapons anyways.
Why not?
The issue with all of these events is that they are post-Plantera and a big chore to go through for minimal equipment improvements. The post-Plantera tier gets overshadowed very quickly by post-Golem gear, for what it's worth. Golem is an absolute cakewalk compared to Plantera, yet the gear you unlock after defeating Golem is extremely powerful, particularly from Fishron and the Martian event. In most of my playthroughs you will fight the Jungle Temple immediately after defeating Plantera anyway, not leaving any room for hardmode Dungeon exploration, nor the Pumpkin/Frost moon fighting. And before one of you announces that you beat Fishron with the copper shortsword (congratulations), the boss is meant to be fought after Golem. I can defeat him with pre-mech gear too, but that would be a sequence break. For this reason I classify him as post-Golem.

also my reply kind of does have to do something with what you said there, seeing how your comment is a reply of

Nakano15 said:
What's the point of doing the events, then? For one day of Halloween/Christmas?

I don't like explaining myself, but here we go. You claim that the event moons can help you fight the Empress of Light, and I claim I've never used gear from any of the event moons in my entire playthroughs.
 
Why not?
The issue with all of these events is that they are post-Plantera and a big chore to go through for minimal equipment improvements. The post-Plantera tier gets overshadowed very quickly by post-Golem gear, for what it's worth. Golem is an absolute cakewalk compared to Plantera, yet the gear you unlock after defeating Golem is extremely powerful, particularly from Fishron and the Martian event. In most of my playthroughs you will fight the Jungle Temple immediately after defeating Plantera anyway, not leaving any room for hardmode Dungeon exploration, nor the Pumpkin/Frost moon fighting. And before one of you announces that you beat Fishron with the copper shortsword (congratulations), the boss is meant to be fought after Golem. I can defeat him with pre-mech gear too, but that would be a sequence break. For this reason I classify him as post-Golem.

also my reply kind of does have to do something with what you said there, seeing how your comment is a reply of



I don't like explaining myself, but here we go. You claim that the event moons can help you fight the Empress of Light, and I claim I've never used gear from any of the event moons in my entire playthroughs.
You both seem to be agreeing and not realizing it. Jota said the event weapon can be used against EoL, that's true, they're better than most things you get from Plantera and should be regarded as an improvement (even if they are really minor improvements sometimes), fighting EoL WITH the Moon gear is better than fighter her WITHOUT it. What you both agree with is that you can skip these events since they do not provide many benefits.
 
To get better weapons to use against her? Are you implying that these bosses beat themselves? I could not beat Empress until I got a Blizzard Staff.

For night or day mode? Because at night you can wreck her with insert fast/flying mount/mechcart and a Possessed Hatchet with a few potions. The less lazy you are, the more you can wear something else than Beetle.

I'm about to do day mode, probably neither Hatchet nor Typhoon ain't gonna cut it.


I can see that the problem here is your approach. You tried Facetanking and outDPSing bosses on a difficulty where enemies have 50% more HP and Damage than on Expert mode, of course that won't work so well. Flameburst sentries are weak and inaccurate, and they are even more useless here since Flameburst Sentries can't really aim up and Pumpkings are fought almost entirely in the air. And using something with short range (Stellar Tune) as your main weapon in a event where you are spammed by projectiles isn't a very good idea.

Actually I laughed at how weak cannon is now for those "farms", so I just got into a regen station above the grinder, and with full Warding, Beetle (also tried Hallowed), BoC, Ninja, Necklace AND the nice new DPStarlight, still couldn't pull it off.

For the fun of it, got into Dark Artist + mage accessories, put sentries into the trap area, while I dealt with Pumpkings with Stellar Tune. It got me thru wave 15 on 1st try. Tune just wrecks weaker stuff (for mana stars and loot), and sentries keep clearing the trap area, even when you die, they can take on Mourning Woods and give you some progress. If I wasn't flying around to collect stuff not to reach 400 drops limit, it would probably be even better.

Just saying, it works, so far for Pumpkin Moon. Thing is, I did NOT expect it to work. I don't see how you do it with Terra Blade since your focus will either be Pumpkings or Mournings, which slows your progress, no? Plus Keybrand means really close range.

[Can only reach wave 13 of the Frost Moon before night ends]

It's a horde battle vs a no-hit battle, I don't think it's fair to compare them straight on.
 
[Can only reach wave 13 of the Frost Moon before night ends]

[Got up to Wave 18 on my first Master Mode try that wasn't even tryharded yet it took me 3 tries to beat empress with gear from Frost Moon while doing my best]

Anecdotes don't contribute much to a discussion.

The issue with all of these events is that they are post-Plantera and a big chore to go through for minimal equipment improvements. The post-Plantera tier gets overshadowed very quickly by post-Golem gear, for what it's worth. Golem is an absolute cakewalk compared to Plantera, yet the gear you unlock after defeating Golem is extremely powerful, particularly from Fishron and the Martian event. In most of my playthroughs you will fight the Jungle Temple immediately after defeating Plantera anyway, not leaving any room for hardmode Dungeon exploration, nor the Pumpkin/Frost moon fighting. And before one of you announces that you beat Fishron with the copper shortsword (congratulations), the boss is meant to be fought after Golem. I can defeat him with pre-mech gear too, but that would be a sequence break. For this reason I classify him as post-Golem.

Agreed with this. But I was not talking about this issue. I simply said that Frost Moon Gear should remain weaker than Empress' due to being an easier fight that doesn't even require much skill, and that the Events are not impossible at all on Master Mode.

I don't like explaining myself, but here we go. You claim that the event moons can help you fight the Empress of Light, and I claim I've never used gear from any of the event moons in my entire playthroughs.

So you've never used them. Cool, but you can't just claim that they don't help if you have 0 experience with them.

They are obviously not 100% necessary, but if she is proving to be too hard for you, this stuff is available.

I don't see how you do it with Terra Blade since your focus will either be Pumpkings or Mournings, which slows your progress, no? Plus Keybrand means really close range.

You get Pumpkings down to like, 60% health with Terra Blade and then do the rest with Keybrand. Wave 15 comes at around 1:30 AM every time. It's most likely worse than your Stellar Tune + OOA stuff approach, but that's to be expected since my setup is almost entirely post plantera while yours is late post golem.
 
I'd like to think of the moons as a sidegrade that you can pursue, so not much change is really needed. I was able to beat Golem with only Plantera gear and maybe some things from the Solar Eclipse (like the Eye of Cthulhu), and then I went straight to Fishron with Golem gear. I took on Empress after Fishron and I found that his gear was also strong enough to take on the Empress. I don't think it's really that necessary for the moon gear to be buffed since the progression above works naturally as well.

You also have Martian Madness, which can help take on the Empress or even Fishron.
 
I'd like to think of the moons as a sidegrade that you can pursue, so not much change is really needed. I was able to beat Golem with only Plantera gear and maybe some things from the Solar Eclipse (like the Eye of Cthulhu), and then I went straight to Fishron with Golem gear. I took on Empress after Fishron and I found that his gear was also strong enough to take on the Empress. I don't think it's really that necessary for the moon gear to be buffed since the progression above works naturally as well.

You also have Martian Madness, which can help take on the Empress or even Fishron.

Well, it's a sidegrade to Golem, so I wonder if you could have managed to do the events with the gear you used to kill Golem.
 
Well, it's a sidegrade to Golem, so I wonder if you could have managed to do the events with the gear you used to kill Golem.
Most likely, I just don't really bother with them since it doesn't really feel natural to incorporate a holiday event into gameplay progression. I can manage Golem just fine with the gear you can get before him without the moons and use that onward to take on some of the other things, like Fishron or Martian Madness.
 
I'd like to think of the moons as a sidegrade that you can pursue, so not much change is really needed. I was able to beat Golem with only Plantera gear and maybe some things from the Solar Eclipse (like the Eye of Cthulhu), and then I went straight to Fishron with Golem gear. I took on Empress after Fishron and I found that his gear was also strong enough to take on the Empress. I don't think it's really that necessary for the moon gear to be buffed since the progression above works naturally as well.

You also have Martian Madness, which can help take on the Empress or even Fishron.
Exactly. You don't need to bother with them if you don't want to. The only fixes I propose is to scale event progression to master mode and buff underpowered items among the events.
 
Most likely, I just don't really bother with them since it doesn't really feel natural to incorporate a holiday event into gameplay progression. I can manage Golem just fine with the gear you can get before him without the moons and use that onward to take on some of the other things, like Fishron or Martian Madness.

As I said before, bosses can be killed with massively underpowered gear. People could probably beat Golem with pre-HM gear if they had the patience.
That simply doesn't work with the moon events since you have to make a certain amount of progress in order to get loot from them.

I would really recommend you to play the events before sharing your opinion about them, though. You can't really know whether you can beat them if you don't bother playing them in the first place.
 
Agreed with this. But I was not talking about this issue. I simply said that Frost Moon Gear should remain weaker than Empress' due to being an easier fight that doesn't even require much skill, and that the Events are not impossible at all on Master Mode.
I wouldn't say EoL is a hard fight. Once you know how to beat her once, you know how to beat her every time.

So you've never used them. Cool, but you can't just claim that they don't help if you have 0 experience with them.
Should've mentioned that I never used it pre-Moon Lord. So I do know how they work. Still don't find them worth the hassle.
 
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