Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Terrablade101]

Just to throw a cent here. Nerfing a weapon does not take away the pool of options, in fact, most nerfed weapons in the latest version are still really good, but what nerfing can do is make players be able to explore other alternatives.
Nerfing Tsunami is a good idea because it is one of the few weapons that can beat everything else in its tier, it wouldn't be a good idea if you had to nerf a lot of weapons along with it.
This doesn't cut the fact that some weapons from that tier should be buffed, since we're trying to bring them to the same tier as a (nerfed) Tsunami.
With most balance changes already in testing stage now, I can say we probably will get justifiable changes that we can agree it, regardless if it's just a nerf to a few Fishron drops or a more broad set of changes to post-golem weapons.

I agree. Needing Tsunami should definitely happen. It would give more options to other ranged weapons, such as eventide.

 

[Pigman Δ]

This would be a fun little gimmick for the Tsunami...
How about, instead of firing 4 arrows, it fires a literal tsunami? It could be an 'easy to aim' kind of bow.
The tsunami would pierce 3 times and take the effect of whatever arrow you used for it. It would also not be affected by gravity.
Certain arrow types (holy?) would cause it to pierce less.
Just a little idea I had.

 

[Terrablade101]

This would be a fun little gimmick for the Tsunami...
How about, instead of firing 4 arrows, it fires a literal tsunami? It could be an 'easy to aim' kind of bow.
The tsunami would pierce 3 times and take the effect of whatever arrow you used for it. It would also not be affected by gravity.
Certain arrow types (holy?) would cause it to pierce less.
Just a little idea I had.

Absolutely LOVE the idea, although as much as we all hate to admit it, the most the devs are gonna do now is most likely just balance changes, as it’s time for them to move on, and changes like that would require extra sprites, etc which aren’t most likely making the cut. Still a great idea for a mod tho!

 

[Terrablade101]

Absolutely LOVE the idea, although as much as we all hate to admit it, the most the devs are gonna do now is most likely just balance changes, as it’s time for them to move on, and changes like that would require extra sprites, etc which aren’t most likely making the cut. Still a great idea for a mod tho!

Theres a bunch of stuff I wish made it into the game too. I really wanted a rick and morty reference in the game maybe in a new weapon but oh well.

 

[Leinfors]

I'll be honest: I wish the anti-Tsunami bloc had been a little more vocal at any time in the last year. I've seen occasional mentions, but never such consistent push in favor of nerfing it.

Unfortunately, all of my changes are already approved and I don't think I'm going to be getting any more in. However, as I don't have time to research it right now, if the opportunity DOES arise, what sort of nerf do most users thing appropriate?

Simple usetime or damage reductions can work wonders if the DPS is just a little too high, I'm just not sure the scale of it. Tsunami is a bit of a blind spot for me.

 

[Terrablade101]

I'll be honest: I wish the anti-Tsunami bloc had been a little more vocal at any time in the last year. I've seen occasional mentions, but never such consistent push in favor of nerfing it.

Unfortunately, all of my changes are already approved and I don't think I'm going to be getting any more in. However, as I don't have time to research it right now, if the opportunity DOES arise, what sort of nerf do most users thing appropriate?

Simple usetime or damage reductions can work wonders if the DPS is just a little too high, I'm just not sure the scale of it. Tsunami is a bit of a blind spot for me.

Honestly, from my last playthrough as a ranger in 1.4, it’s gotta just be the damage that needs nerfing. In my PERSONAL opinion, I feel like dropping the damage from 60 to 45 would be a balanced nerf. Like I’ve said before, empress is definitely harder than duke, with more health and faster moving, and the fact that she can’t be taken on till post plantera while duke is all of hardmode. Empress’ eventide drop does 50 damage, and that’s why I think the tsunami should be 45 so that it is lower, fixing the progression there. However, the tsunami does have a faster use time at fast, while the eventide is average, so if there was a way to balance that by moving the eventide up or the tsunami down while reducing the tsunami’s damage that would definitely balance things out.

 

[CrabBar]

Tsunami nerf gang? I see, I see.
Although, to put my own 2 cents, there seems to be an internal balance between 4 bows at this stage of the game:
Tsunami, Eventide, Aerial Bane, Phantasm.
While Tsunami is the most straight-forward type of powerful and probably easiest to obtain bow out of this squad, each other pick has its' own advantages as well (shortly put: Eventide has high default ammo efficiency and insane CC; Aerial Bane excels at melting airborne targets (bosses); Phantasm is the most consistent to obtain and dominates continuous damage output), and personally I don't believe any of these is more imbalanced than the others. If Tsunami takes a hit, others will also have to, or the players' attention will simply switch to remaining options. (except maybe Aerial Bane, but that's the OOA grinding issues)

 

[Terrablade101]

Tsunami nerf gang? I see, I see.
Although, to put my own 2 cents, there seems to be an internal balance between 4 bows at this stage of the game:
Tsunami, Eventide, Aerial Bane, Phantasm.
While Tsunami is the most straight-forward type of powerful and probably easiest to obtain bow out of this squad, each other pick has its' own advantages as well (shortly put: Eventide has high default ammo efficiency and insane CC; Aerial Bane excels at melting airborne targets (bosses); Phantasm is the most consistent to obtain and dominates continuous damage output), and personally I don't believe any of these is more imbalanced than the others. If Tsunami takes a hit, others will also have to, or the players' attention will simply switch to remaining options. (except maybe Aerial Bane, but that's the OOA grinding issues)

From what I’ve seen, the tsunami is better than the eventide or the aerial bane in literally every way except for the fact of piercing with the eventide, which can easily not be a problem with better arrows like holy arrows which can rain down on a crowd. The fact that the tsunami is the easiest to get and the best is a problem. I used the tsunami to kill the empress in my last playthrough, and after getting the eventide, which is from a harder boss, I was disappointed that it wasn’t as good dps wise as the eventide. It was considerably worse.

 

[J Bame]

Unfortunately, all of my changes are already approved and I don't think I'm going to be getting any more in. However, as I don't have time to research it right now, if the opportunity DOES arise, what sort of nerf do most users thing appropriate?

It really just needs DPS nerfs, the issue is just that it's extremely powerful. I have two ideas:

1- Increase Use time from 24 to 29-31 (DPS nerf, and the slow speed declones it a bit from Eventide and such)
2- Make it fire 4 arrows instead of 5 (and lower Phantasm to 3 now that we are at it)

 

[Terrablade101]

It really just needs DPS nerfs, the issue is just that it's extremely powerful. I have two ideas:

1- Increase Use time from 24 to 29-31 (DPS nerf, and the slow speed declones it a bit from Eventide and such)
2- Make it fire 4 arrows instead of 5 (and lower Phantasm to 3 now that we are at it)

I’m definitely for the slower use time, but with the tsunami if you use it now, most of the time the bottom arrow hits the ground if you fire horizontally, however it’s dps still beats the eventide. Therefore I don’t know if making it fire 4 instead of 5 would do a ton, but a dps nerf would, and I think it would be easier for the devs to do if they did get the chance.

 

[CrabBar]

I’m definitely for the slower use time, but with the tsunami if you use it now, most of the time the bottom arrow hits the ground if you fire horizontally, however it’s dps still beats the eventide. Therefore I don’t know if making it fire 4 instead of 5 would do a ton, but a dps nerf would, and I think it would be easier for the devs to do if they did get the chance.

4 arrows instead of 5 is 20% DPS nerf, so it would do a fair amount of job. Besides, It is not too common to touch surface in Hardmode.

It really just needs DPS nerfs, the issue is just that it's extremely powerful. I have two ideas:

1- Increase Use time from 24 to 29-31 (DPS nerf, and the slow speed declones it a bit from Eventide and such)
2- Make it fire 4 arrows instead of 5 (and lower Phantasm to 3 now that we are at it)

Eventide is currently slower than Tsunami, so slowing Tsunami down will actually make them closer in mechanics. Although it is still an effective way to cut its' potential.
Phantasm to 3 arrows sounds pretty big of a move tbh, unless some of base damage nerfs are reverted? It does deserve a nerf, but not a potentially killing blow.

 

[J Bame]

Eventide is currently slower than Tsunami, so slowing Tsunami down will actually make them closer in mechanics. Although it is still an effective way to cut its' potential.

There would still be a difference with Eventide since that fires its arrows over 30 frames instead of every 30 frames but you are right, I thought their use time was the same before I checked. If we still want to make Tsunami "the slow one" we could increase Use Time all the way up to 40~ with some compensation on the base damage, but we are getting into rework territory there.

Phantasm to 3 arrows sounds pretty big of a move tbh, unless some of base damage nerfs are reverted? It does deserve a nerf, but not a potentially killing blow.

If Tsunami losing 20% DPS is fine, the stronger version of it losing 25% shouldn't be a problem either. Plus, as you said it can get some more base damage if it turns out to be a gutting nerf.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Tsunami- Lower damage to 40, this will put it roughly on par with the xenopopper, I'm assuming that martian madness and duke fishron are supposed to be rougly the same tier.

Aerial bane- I think this is fine, its damage output against flying enemies is comparable to the tsunami when NOT using holy arrows (which is still high). It's somewhat awkward firing pattern and needing to hit flying targets means it's a lot more limited than the tsunami.

Eventide- It can do crowd control well when using wooden arrows, since it will convert all of them into those special piercing shots. It's single target damage output is still really good however, although weaker than than the tsunami, it is comparable to the nebula blaze when using ichor arrows, and obviously if it's a slow target it will leave the blaze in the dust with holy arrows. I'm not sure if Empress weapons are supposed to be on a higher tier, or the same tier as duke/martian weapons.
I would remove the ammo variance from it and have it always shoot its special projectiles, then maybe remove the 2x damage multiplier on the central one. This would also greatly distinguish it from the other bows.

Phantasm-I feel like the reason this weapon is so strong is because it has to one up the tsunami which is already stronger than most other fragment weapons. Like this is roughly 50% stronger than the tsunami. I think this weapon should be roughly as strong as the tsunami is now. To achieve that it should alternate between shooting 2 and 3 arrows. The phantasm needs roughly a 33% dps nerf.

 

[qwerty3.14]

While we're talking about overpowered bows, I think it's worth talking about the archery potion. It's a cheap potion that gives 20% arrow damage, it's definitely something that should be taken into account when balancing bows.

The archery potions could also get a nerf, if it were reduced to 10% arrow damage I'd be a bit more conservative with my tsunami and phantasm nerfs.
After said nerf, I would drop the tsunami to 45 damage, and I would drop the phantasm to shooting 3 arrows.

 

[SsIras]

I'll be honest: I wish the anti-Tsunami bloc had been a little more vocal at any time in the last year. I've seen occasional mentions, but never such consistent push in favor of nerfing it.

Unfortunately, all of my changes are already approved and I don't think I'm going to be getting any more in. However, as I don't have time to research it right now, if the opportunity DOES arise, what sort of nerf do most users thing appropriate?

Simple usetime or damage reductions can work wonders if the DPS is just a little too high, I'm just not sure the scale of it. Tsunami is a bit of a blind spot for me.

I don't know if you can/will answer, but since a lot of the concerns with Tsunami are related to other bows, can you tell if your list of changes include Eventide, Aerial Bane and Phantasm? Regardless the consensus is that Phantasm should take the same blow as Tsunami and Eventide and Aerial Bane to be either superiors or equals to Tsunami.

 

[Pigman Δ]

Tsunami power showcase (Holy Arrows, Normal Mode, Pumpkin Moon, 0 ranged equipment, one or two universal damage equipment)
Video file
(you may have to wait a bit as it is quite high quality and is taking a while to download)
EDIT changed the link as it wasn't working

 

[GoldenTerrabyte]

I'll be honest: I wish the anti-Tsunami bloc had been a little more vocal at any time in the last year. I've seen occasional mentions, but never such consistent push in favor of nerfing it.

Unfortunately, all of my changes are already approved and I don't think I'm going to be getting any more in. However, as I don't have time to research it right now, if the opportunity DOES arise, what sort of nerf do most users thing appropriate?

Simple usetime or damage reductions can work wonders if the DPS is just a little too high, I'm just not sure the scale of it. Tsunami is a bit of a blind spot for me.

If we absolutely had to nerf the Tsunami, I would take the damage down to about 50, as I think any lower than that is taking it a little far. It should still be a weapon that's powerful to use. And in turn, I think the Eventide could have its firing rate moved up slightly. The Aerial Bane could be given something like the Rocket Launcher got, where the direct hits do extra damage.

And as for Archery potions, I'd rather stay as they are. If a nerf had to happen, I'd rather it came in the form of a recipe change.

 

[Terrablade101]

If we absolutely had to nerf the Tsunami, I would take the damage down to about 50, as I think any lower than that is taking it a little far. It should still be a weapon that's powerful to use. And in turn, I think the Eventide could have its firing rate moved up slightly. The Aerial Bane could be given something like the Rocket Launcher got, where the direct hits do extra damage.

And as for Archery potions, I'd rather stay as they are. If a nerf had to happen, I'd rather it came in the form of a recipe change.

Yeah, this works, I just wish the eventide was just slightly better in damage than the tsunami, maybe at 55. If the damage for the tsunami is the same as the eventide, I still feel like the motive to actually go after the eventide won’t really be there, despite its piercing and condensed firing capabilities

 

[GoldenTerrabyte]

Yeah, this works, I just wish the eventide was just slightly better in damage than the tsunami, maybe at 55. If the damage for the tsunami is the same as the eventide, I still feel like the motive to actually go after the eventide won’t really be there, despite its piercing and condensed firing capabilities

It's worth mentioning that one of the Eventide bolts does double damage, so with both at the same, the Eventide does do slightly more. A bump to its rate of fire, and a slight boost up to 55, would probably be perfect, I think.

 

[a31337]

Just to throw a cent here. Nerfing a weapon does not take away the pool of options, in fact, most nerfed weapons in the latest version are still really good, but what nerfing can do is make players be able to explore other alternatives.
Nerfing Tsunami is a good idea because it is one of the few weapons that can beat everything else in its tier, it wouldn't be a good idea if you had to nerf a lot of weapons along with it.
This doesn't cut the fact that some weapons from that tier should be buffed, since we're trying to bring them to the same tier as a (nerfed) Tsunami.
With most balance changes already in testing stage now, I can say we probably will get justifiable changes that we can agree it, regardless if it's just a nerf to a few Fishron drops or a more broad set of changes to post-golem weapons.

while we're at it, can we nerf master mode so that we aren't forced to cheese every single encounter with crutch tactics and weapons, adding more diversity in our weapon selection?