Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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About luck: this new system is nice to have. I don't mind it for biome torches, and gnomes are fun.

I also understand that since luck gives a positive boost, a negative effect is needed somewhere to balance things out.

I'd just prefer that negative effect not be with regular standard torches (and especially not if this information is hidden, I discovered it from this forum thread), the solution is to craft ice torches in the inventory when in ice biome, that seems just pointless inventory management that doesn't add much to the game imho.

If the negative effect were something you could remove in an interesting way (e.g. remove misplaced negative luck-bringers the world auto-generates here and there or gradually build up something more interesting than boring inventory management is), then I think it would be nice.

So in conclusion:
luck system = nice
negative side effect = understandable
affecting regular torches without information = not nice
solution to luck being a boring form of more inventory management = not nice


EDIT: thanks so much for the 1.4.0.3 change! I like it, you can play normally when doing regular adventuring, and you can still fiddle with torches when planning and preparing for something serious, which is fun :)
 
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If they do the same damage perhaps that's not a good thing. A rolling cactus would do serious damage but not a rolling boulder type damage.

I think the rolling cactus should be tweaked to do lower damage. Not a whole lot less but noticably less than a boulder. They don't need to do equal damage and they aren't equally implemented or encountered as often as each other.
Agreed, one of those things killed me in 1 HIT at FULL health... with as common as they are they should not do that much damage
 
After player 1.4, I had to put it down. The changes just didn't sit right with me, and here are a few topics that frustrated me. These might be repeating some of the other posts, but I'm not going to read 200 of them to decide whether or not to post this.

-The new trees feel out of place. They look good, but the area surrounding them just doesn't fit with them.
-Graves take 20 years to break now, and its a real nusiance considering how ugly they look.
-We can't break sand under cactus anymore. Chopping cacti is a boring experience, and you've stopped a way around it instead of addressing why people don't want to hold click for 6 seconds per cactus.
 
I think the spawn rate on the prismatic lacewings needs to be increased. A night is 9 minutes long and in my water candled hallow I get about 0-2 per night averageing about 1 per night. If I go to my undergroun mushroom biome in 9 minutes I can easily get over a dozen truffle worms.

By the way here is a visual representation of how much time I've spent in the hallow farming these things... most of that gel came from the hallow's gastropods.
1589992392031.png
 
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why won't blood moon happen ever?!

Probably bad (or is it good?) luck. I got one my like 5th night in my playthrough, and even an item that lets me manually summon one.

Regards to torch luck and NPC Happiness, these would be immediately improved if you remove the negative modifiers of both mechanics. That way it is a bonus at best, but you don't get punished if you don't feel like going for them.

I didn't like that I moved my merchant to an underground mushroom biome, but it didn't count as "underground" for his happiness. Made my efforts for an underground mushroom town feel like a waste of time.
 
About luck and happiness.

The solution to the luck issue would be the same as with the happiness issue:

Reward interesting playstyle, but don't punish the player playing the same way as pre-1.4

Get a (smaller) luck buff from using the correct torches, and better prices building neat towns for the NPCs. And simply no debuffs from doing the opposite.

This way the devs incentivize playing the way they want, but ultimatelly put the choice in the hands of the players.
 
Zenith is a tricky one, at one side, it's a post-endgame sword that's well-deserved to be more powerful than other Moon Lord drops like the Last Prism.
But on the other. Seeing this weapon been so strong that it's even trivialising Master Mode bosses and events, it makes me think that endgame gets stale really fast.

Difficult to say an opinion about, even if it's DPS would be nerved around other ML drops, it would still be the weapon with the most utility to use.

Perhaps it's just that I'm not used to the "infinity sword" trope.
I'd personally wouldn't like a weapon that breaks through all balance logic, even if it's post-game. But each is on their own.

Visual wise, the Zenith is perfect. Perhaps the best I could've wanted from the Sword of all swords.
 
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Snip; about QoL concerning shortcuts and UI of Journey

Concur'd; would prefer any mention or love towards shortcuts of any kind in standard Terraria play. Most people complain plenty on the UI and these things service to help with the freebase linear/mouse-centric control. Not sure if this is still in your jurisdiction, but if you're cleaning house, this is most definitely a good place to start to keep things fresh on the move-out.

As for more balance-centric stuff:

Conversation with Vanilla Rebalance Dude; talks concerning Razorblade

First things firsts: weapon usability/popularity shouldn't be too much a deciding factor in how you look towards "nerfing" something. I get that you're doing the best here to please the crowd, but the end result is that Duke's still got phenomenal stuff even on class set-ups that don't even properly multi-spec. The key note here is that you should focus on core balance towards any massive outliers, and considering your agreement and reservations, you know just as well that it's more an outlier than the likes of every other one of Duke's weapons. There's no discrediting his loot pool by a reassessment of something like Razor when everything else is similarly - if not just as - critical as it. Don't be afraid to make changes. Even if it homogenizes Duke's to single target prioritization, it's better than strictly adhering to the meta status quo.
Healing back-and-forth concerning Valhalla/Squire stuff.

It still has plenty capable regenerative abilities. The core behind the reservation is the fact that free-healing is a detriment to commitment principles already present in the game, which service to add complexity to the simple nature of an always-active hurtbox game. Notice "always-active hurtbox" and you get a clear picture as to why free-healing is already a problem: there's no incentive not to do it. Passive play is a part of the process and encouraged by the time-to-kill-centric nature of the enemy design, so the second you can play it safe is the second you're getting rewarded immensely and invalidating a lot of other compromises such as the dichotomy between Philosopher's/Accessory Availability, risk assessment vs future proofing, and even the most egregious of them: offensive versus defensive, which is already a weighed scale because "time-to-kill-centric" gameplay already heavily incentivizes active engagement to begin with. Occam's Razor comes into picture here, and let me tell you, it's not a pretty painting on Defenses' part. This is the problem behind the regeneration itself and why building around it is a lot more of a problem than the "heavy amount of regen" that was just an addendum/supplement to something that was already problematic to begin with.

That being said, I really wouldn't discredit the suggestion that health regeneration on part of getting struck would be a bad thing. It's a good upend on crisis assessment and keeping your cool and can help to build good habits on suppressing panic, not to mention even on Normal mode, getting hit by most anything is a disadvantageous state to begin with. The most I could think of in terms of it becoming a problem is players willingly hurting themselves on lower-end enemies to gain such a boost with a low net-cost, but that's already a core component of the Panic Necklace to begin with and is rewarding of a player who's able to use ingenuity, not to mention I doubt health regen off of honey could even be used in i-frame machines.

On that note, saying that Panic Necklace is "archaic" when it services a bridge of gap on distancing on hit is honestly extreme. I can see the statement applying fine to Star Cloak and its kin, but Panic Necklace is still perfectly serviceable and is only really held back by in-engine movement speed caps or the like in a context where versatility is usually a fair bit more important than damage. Even on essential three for Pre-Hardmode end-game (Obsidian Shield; Frostspark; Monster Tooth), you've still got more than enough reason to run Panic Necklace, especially in cases where overlapping hitbox = bad. Hardmode already gets a lead-in with a boss specifically built to test you on this and its sub-mechanics as a result, so even if you are running it into hardmode, it's a perfect case of taking off the the crutches, which a player deserves to get punished by. If you really wanted to stick to your guns on it being archaic as a result of the getting hit portion, the best case of rebalance would be per @slendyproject's suggestion just a bit up (though rip the engineers using XNA).

Debuff-centric stuff; bringing up Ichor and the likes

Ichor's the backlash component because it services a direct point of defense-formula counterplay which every other debuff has to abide by - with static numbers on top of that no less. I'm not really sure if this has come up within balance discussions between you and the team (probably more times than I can count) but you could make things either centric towards max HP as to have things still be usable within later levels or you could just omit debuffs from the defense formula all-together in order to help them service better along on player component and while still having potential player-based scaling towards the 500 HP max. Practicality, it could be asking for a lot, and the Max HP suggestion is already more than enough an undertaking for not only the QA but engineers especially this late into cycle, but if anything, I'd recommend the distancing from defense to help service itself against the ichor norm.

As for the comments relative to the "shakeup" stuff, again: refer to my comments above on meta status quo. Don't be afraid of us, dude. You do your job, and we'll still love Re-Logic (and you!) even despite that.

Frost Armor; Boomerang; whatever's brought up below etc etc.

Frost Armor has got some solid crit/damage fine-tuners on Chest and Helmet (with helmet being one of the better hybrid damage-ups in the game, especially for full-generalist plays) but has a deadweight on the leggings that's better serviced by others with a set bonus that also doesn't help with commitment.

Boomerangs are wack, but they're servicable target select "get off me's" and if there were a thing to use for buffing them while not giving them Hatchet diversity, it'd probably just be a use speed buff for quicker swaps between weapons or make it so that you can swap inbetween uses of the boomerang to help with prioritization as well as individualized action. That's practically mostly their use already, and skimming the fat to make them more specialized in that facet probably wouldn't take too much - it's probably something to commit some thought into in terms of this cleaning-house balance stuff since the passive-melee stuff you guys did before is now more or less perfected by way of the yoyo.

Towards Crystal Assassin set: You really have to play careful with classless sets, since typically that's more of an ingenuity prospect rather than something of a strict doctrine. The crit/damage average is a hell of a thing to maintain, but the Assassin deal has to more or less give the practicality of a full on set (not to mention there really ISN'T a lot of ways to diversify at the moment in terms of when it's typically available progression-wise) for those that don't got a scope of this sort of thing, which means introducing damage elements instead of giving the identity of something that seems useless on paper but has more efficient usages. Even despite this, the armor itself is "okay" at this more than enough, but it at least services to introduce the concept that crit/damage averages together are usually a better picture than extremist cases on either or (unless you're doing pvp in which case, it's damage or nothing). Numbers wouldn't lie either; TtK would be shaved off a little bit, but it'd still be there (old: 27.5% shaved off avg; new: 23.4% or something like that; assuming comparison with set bonus on old) and that's even players giving it a shot to begin with.

tl;dr: it's better to give the introductory lesson of "crit and damage averages are best when grouped together" that the base armor in the game already give that gets taken for granted to let people bridge the gap and start diversifying themselves later on as a supplement of their experience. Even despite the fact that it's lacking in malleability on the later bends, it's still a serviceable generalist piece that can hold up up until you get a more structured hybrid/classed set going for whatever you're venturing towards, which gives it malleability on the frontend. I wouldn't call it a bad armor piece at all, especially when we're talking a 15%+ (which is kept towards emblems at this point) towards generalized damage on the start of hardmode when stuff like damage values start to really begin to be important.

I'd go on for more points, but at this point, I'm exhausted because I've no sleep, so take with what I've given what you will.

EDIT: as for the Zenith thing and putting in two cents: it's sincerely meant to be classless. The sword thing is more or less just a celebration of the Journey - it's a literal symbolic venture. I'm not really sure how else to put it. It's not a showcase of favoritism, it's a showcase of iconicism. It really shouldn't be such a big vocal point, and I'm honestly surprised that it's up there along with the likes of Torch luck, which is a much more sincere problem on the fundamentals of freedom towards Terraria's design.
 
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About luck and happiness.

The solution to the luck issue would be the same as with the happiness issue:

Reward interesting playstyle, but don't punish the player playing the same way as pre-1.4

Get a (smaller) luck buff from using the correct torches, and better prices building neat towns for the NPCs. And simply no debuffs from doing the opposite.

This way the devs incentivize playing the way they want, but ultimatelly put the choice in the hands of the players.
Finally someone else with sense and a basic knowledge of psychology.
 
Curse Inferno is weak enough you want to nerf it even more? what a sham. I don't think those enemies should be immune to cursed inferno debuff as it's already very weak by nerfing it from a logical standpoint it would overall go from a C tier hard-mode weapon to a D tier one. There are reasons why those enemies aren't immune to cursed inferno. Infact I think more enemies should be susceptible to the cursed inferno debuff compared to ichor it's so underwhelming those immunities are there to offset this but that's not even enough. By removing these immunities balance becomes even more tipped in the Golden Showers favour compared to the Cursed Flames book which should have similar power levels. Golden shower should be only slightly better not twice as good.
I think that the distribution of immunities among enemies should be more consistent. Right now, an enemy that is immune to one type of burning damage tends to be immune to all of them. If Cursed Flames has to be buffed, it should be buffed.

But possibly some enemies could have their immunities to Cursed Flames and Shadowflame removed. This means more enemies would be like the Hell Armored Bones and Granite Golem, and have only basic fire immunity. This could increase the viability of Cursed Flames against certain enemies. Also, some enemies which are already immune to Cursed Flames should be made immune to Ichor.

The number of enemies that are currently immune to Ichor is extremely few and arbitrary, and right now only includes a few bosses and some event enemies. (Why do half the Pumpkin Moon enemies need universal immunity?) I think more enemies should be immune to Ichor, but different ones. All incorporeal enemies should be immune for one – Wraiths, Reapers, and Floaty Grosses are currently not immune to Ichor, and probably should be.
 
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I think there might be a way to completely solve the Zenith issue, and funnily enough, the solution comes from the king and queen of content mods, Calamity and Thorium: change its damage to untyped. If it is meant to be the final weapon any Warrior, Ranger, Mage, or Summoner crafts at the end of the journey, then there should be no bias to its damage - it should deal "True" damage, as Fabsol and Diverman Sam have called it. This not only gives it a minor nerf in that only the Destroyer and Avenger Emblems can boost its damage, but it removes the widespread melee bias everyone is decrying it for. This also makes it a true endgame weapon for full hybrid builds that don't conform to a single class, and gives everyone a reason to consider the Destroyer/Avenger Emblem in their gear setup. Dampen the bias anger, slightly lower the damage, and make it a true weapon for all Terrarians, all in a single change. In fairness, I do realize I'm grossly underplaying the mechanical process this would require, it's quite possible someone higher on the food chain has long ago said "NO" to true damage in a vanilla weapon, and there's likely some other factor I missed. But hey, I can only offer the idea. Everyone can just tear it apart if it's bad.
 
I understand why people are disappointed the other classes didn't get a new ultimate weapon, but it is what it is. Saying melee should have Zenith nerfed to death for that just seems spiteful.

Zenith shouldn't be nerfed in the slightest. I agree with you. Games, in my opinion, need a Bragging Rights Reward. An Infinity +1 Sword. I love having a final upgrade that solidifies your accomplishments.

...But where are the other three? Why is it that only Zenith gets to be all cool and godlike while the other three classes don't get anything even remotely as strong? If you have an Infinity +1 Sword in a game with class choice, there should also be an Infinity +1 Gun, Infinity +1 Staff, and an Infinity +1 Rod. It's simply unfair to all non-melee characters.
 
About the Biome Torches, I think the system would be fine and even pretty cool if it just rewarded you for using biome torches and had regular torches be luck-neutral. This would be MORE than enough to encourage people to use the other torches without penalizing them (even if its only slightly) for using regular torches out of habit or convenience.
Especially since AFAIK holding Shift to quick swap still prioritizes Regular torches over Biome torches if any are in your inventory.

NPC happiness is also a thing that needs some fine-tuning. The feedback is too vague and it's annoying that NPCs that aren't vendors won't give you a Pylon if you max their happiness out so, even though the Angler loves the ocean, his happiness is basically "wasted" because he won't sell you a pylon no matter what. It can be incredibly trying a NPC combination that ends up not working and having to run all the way back and forth between towns to shuffle your NPCs around and hope that its still night time so you can try another combination. It'd help if you could maybe reassign NPCs to houses via the map screen, and they would move into new houses during the daytime too. Also, maybe just have a simple happiness meter?

Finally, I don't agree with the decision to make meteors immune to explosives. It's enough that Meteors have already been locked behind EoW/BoC to keep you from leapfrogging progression. After your first or second time mining a meteor you kinda just wanna get it over with. It's not like mining meteorite is particularly fun or challenging.
 
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For the current magic build, mana star drop rate from enemies is being nerfed in 1.4 for no good reason, i think

if you want to ban the use of last prism without magic sickness, just make last prism won't take mana star.

Now for last prism battle arena we have to dig the whole map for star statue. which is (not) fun.
 
Zenith shouldn't be nerfed in the slightest. I agree with you. Games, in my opinion, need a Bragging Rights Reward. An Infinity +1 Sword. I love having a final upgrade that solidifies your accomplishments.

...But where are the other three? Why is it that only Zenith gets to be all cool and godlike while the other three classes don't get anything even remotely as strong? If you have an Infinity +1 Sword in a game with class choice, there should also be an Infinity +1 Gun, Infinity +1 Staff, and an Infinity +1 Rod. It's simply unfair to all non-melee characters.

At the same time, it is a useless weapon just like the rest of the post Moon Lord drops. After you defeat Moon Lord, the game is basically over. So I don't see the issue.
 
For the current magic build, mana star drop rate from enemies is being nerfed in 1.4 for no good reason, i think

if you want to ban the use of last prism without magic sickness, just make last prism won't take mana star.

Now for last prism battle arena we have to dig the whole map for star statue. which is (not) fun.
I've been confused about this too, and wondering why nobody else has noticed it.
 
Honestly about the whole happiness system, it's a bit like the luck system: I like the overall idea, not so much the end design.

It's neat to be rewarded with teleporting abilities for building towns all around the world. But it ends up being a min-maxing mess of "where should I put this NPC ? Here it's is favorite biome, ah but this NPC doesn't like X, but he does like Y", etc. On top of that unless you math it all the way (which most player won't) it's pretty unclear what should be the most important: the biomes ? The identity of neighbouring NPCs ? The number of neighbours ? (It seems to be the latter).

I'm also not a fan of the "Happiness" option for NPC. The dialog offered is pretty unrealistic, with NPCs simply offering a line about their current biome and a line about their neighbours, which end up making a convoluted dialog making no sense. On top of that, it also conveys information very badly, since you only have 1-2 sentences to understand why your NPC is happy or unhappy. IMO simply making the dialog option show the numerical price modifiers currently applying to the NPC and their reason would convey information more clearly.
Something like:
Active price modifiers:
+150% - dislike current biome !
-90% - likes X NPC (X being nearby)
-95% - low number of neighbours
It's pretty unrealistic to have the NPC tell you that, granted, but no less realistic than the two totally unrelated sentences they currently utter, while giving the player all the information he needs to understand what's going on
 
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