Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Oh Leinfors, you poor dude.

I just found the post, too.
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Red, put your own personal preferences aside for, like, two seconds and realize that your opinion isn't the only one that matters, here; everyone plays games their own way.
 
Just gonna be up front with you guys-

Almost everything that was discussed in the past 20 hours is outside of the scope of what I have any authority to impact. I'm not really going to be able to impact full game systems, and definitely not things like "overhauling UI quality", which is entirely outside of my skills.

Feedback is fine and all, but I'm here to have conversations within a fairly limited scope (that scope being what I've been entrusted with the authority to make changes on), and I'm not likely to chime in on overhauling systems, since there isn't too much I can do there. So with my time being limited as it is with high priority bug review, I'm likely to only be responding to stuff within that scope (which is to say, mostly items).
 
It's cool, Lein. I think most of us know the rock you're trapped under in this situation. But I fear the stink of that quote from Red is gonna linger in this thread for a while.

Forgive my insistence, but are you able to weigh in at all on my suggestion for Zenith? In retrospect I realize it may skirt the edge of what you're allowed to do, but converting it to untyped damage would almost completely settle the melee bias accusations being leveled at it.
 
This thread is about game balance and this mechanic is a terrible new addition. It punishes people with reduced item and health drops. This mechanic is never mentioned anywhere in the game as far as I can tell and it affects a lot. It's a brand new addition to the game too, and feels like a slap in the face as someone who has been playing and supporting the game since 1.1. The overwhelming majority of players are going to go with regular torches for all of their lighting because they are the simplest and easiest to get, and now the game actively punishes them for it. That's really ridiculous.
 
Learning the reasons behind the torch luck really makes everything about the luck system as a whole so much worse. Its the only 'old' thing that affects luck (aka thing that wasn't added this update) and it seems clear that all other things that affect luck (ladybugs, luck potions, gnomes) were mostly added to cover up the torch luck as if it was a proper mechanic, while in reality its just Red showing off that his aesthetic opinion is only valid one.
 
TheLonelyParadox said:
This thread is about game balance and this mechanic is a terrible new addition. It punishes people with reduced item and health drops. This mechanic is never mentioned anywhere in the game as far as I can tell and it affects a lot. It's a brand new addition to the game too, and feels like a slap in the face as someone who has been playing and supporting the game since 1.1. The overwhelming majority of players are going to go with regular torches for all of their lighting because they are the simplest and easiest to get, and now the game actively punishes them for it. That's really ridiculous.
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It is technically mentioned in game by the Wizard, but guess what? Luck affects the Bound Wizard's spawn rate, so if you don't know what luck is and have the audacity to use regular torches, you probably won't find him soon after beating the WoF.
 
Leinfors has no autority over stuff like Torch Luck and weapon redesigns. I understand that it's a dumb mechanic and the reasoning for it is even worse, but this thread is exclusively for feedback on item balancing.

Please stay on topic in this thread, there is no way in hell that it's not getting changed soon with all the controversy it's causing, and ranting about it more in here hoping Leinfors removes it as if he could just do that isn't helping a lot.
 
The Zenith question is one more of game design approach than balance.

Most of the questions about Zenith being discussed here are more about "its unfair to me and my class" than specific item balance. And adding ultimate weapons of other classes is not something that I will be able to approve or not.

I'm not going to chime in with my personal philosophy on the matter, because A) It'll be taken as the entire team's opinion and B) this thread's attitude towards personal philosophy's coloring game design doesn't seem too welcoming right now. Would rather just maintain my best efforts at neutrality.
 
Leinfors said:
Just gonna be up front with you guys-

Almost everything that was discussed in the past 20 hours is outside of the scope of what I have any authority to impact. I'm not really going to be able to impact full game systems, and definitely not things like "overhauling UI quality", which is entirely outside of my skills.

Feedback is fine and all, but I'm here to have conversations within a fairly limited scope (that scope being what I've been entrusted with the authority to make changes on), and I'm not likely to chime in on overhauling systems, since there isn't too much I can do there. So with my time being limited as it is with high priority bug review, I'm likely to only be responding to stuff within that scope (which is to say, mostly items).
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Can you please tell me and the rest of the people who are complaining about things like Torch luck which thread to post our criticisms?
 
WatcherCCG said:
This is likely some troll's bad idea of a photoshop joke meant to derail the discussion. (Not accusing you of making this, mind you.) Let's not get wrapped up in what is likely an attempt to kill this thread, friends.
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I saw this somewhere else, not just here. I'm pretty sure it's real.
 
Rocketjay8 said:
Can you please tell me and the rest of the people who are complaining about things like Torch luck which thread to post our criticisms?
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There is no need for a dedicated place for Torch luck criticism. It has completely dominated reddit, twitter, forum, and Discord discussion. Its showing up in bug reports, its taken over half of this thread. It doesn't need a special home because its already everywhere, and trying to give it a place to stay won't be respected.
 
Let's talk about something else, maybe?

Checking through Discord, it looks like some people view "The Black Spot" (Master mode, Flying Dutchman) as a bit too powerful. Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. Its maneuverability is way too poor for most combat purposes, but it excels at kiting, and makes a world of difference against Expert mode Skeletron Prime (note: not Master mode Skeletron Prime... Expert mode Skeletron Prime).

For now, I think The Black Spot should be moved to Expert mode rather than Master mode, since the Master mode Skeletron Prime fight is ironically easier than the Expert mode fight when the mount is taken into consideration.
 
Leinfors said:
Just gonna be up front with you guys-

Almost everything that was discussed in the past 20 hours is outside of the scope of what I have any authority to impact. I'm not really going to be able to impact full game systems, and definitely not things like "overhauling UI quality", which is entirely outside of my skills.

Feedback is fine and all, but I'm here to have conversations within a fairly limited scope (that scope being what I've been entrusted with the authority to make changes on), and I'm not likely to chime in on overhauling systems, since there isn't too much I can do there. So with my time being limited as it is with high priority bug review, I'm likely to only be responding to stuff within that scope (which is to say, mostly items).
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This is less balance and more 'natural progression' thing, but it feels weird that second NPC you can get in the game is actually a Zoologist and not a Merchant, depending on how many variations of zombies/eyes you kill (since they have so many bestiary entries). Its very easy to reach 10% early on. I feel like this should be changed, so that Zoologist also requires, say, at least 3 other NPCs to be around or something before she can show up, since Merchant is supposed to be your second NPC.
 
Leinfors said:
There is no need for a dedicated place for Torch luck criticism. It has completely dominated reddit, twitter, forum, and Discord discussion. Its showing up in bug reports, its taken over half of this thread. It doesn't need a special home because its already everywhere, and trying to give it a place to stay won't be respected.
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I appreciate the acknowledgement. I hope we can get this thread back on track!
 
Baconfry said:
Let's talk about something else, maybe?

Checking through Discord, it looks like some people view "The Black Spot" (Master mode, Flying Dutchman) as a bit too powerful. Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. Its maneuverability is way too poor for most combat purposes, but it excels at kiting, and makes a world of difference against Expert mode Skeletron Prime (note: not Master mode Skeletron Prime... Expert mode Skeletron Prime).

For now, I think The Black Spot should be moved to Expert mode rather than Master mode, since the Master mode Skeletron Prime fight is ironically easier than the Expert mode fight when the mount is taken into consideration.
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Then we wouldn't have a Dutchman Master drop and we'd be back to the drawing board for making a new one. Don't think that is going to happen.

Heroman3003 said:
This is less balance and more 'natural progression' thing, but it feels weird that second NPC you can get in the game is actually a Zoologist and not a Merchant, depending on how many variations of zombies/eyes you kill (since they have so many bestiary entries). Its very easy to reach 10% early on. I feel like this should be changed, so that Zoologist also requires, say, at least 3 other NPCs to be around or something before she can show up, since Merchant is supposed to be your second NPC.
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I've been getting 2nd NPCs that aren't the Merchant for years, really depends on how you play. That 10% comes really fast in MP, I've noticed, but that's just the nature of MP play where people explore different things.
 
Leinfors said:
The Zenith question is one more of game design approach than balance.

Most of the questions about Zenith being discussed here are more about "its unfair to me and my class" than specific item balance. And adding ultimate weapons of other classes is not something that I will be able to approve or not.
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Fair enough, thank you. Perhaps toss a suggestion up the food chain, if you're able.

Baconfry said:
Checking through Discord, it looks like some people view "The Black Spot" (Master mode, Flying Dutchman) as a bit too powerful. Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. Its maneuverability is way too poor for most combat purposes, but it excels at kiting, and makes a world of difference against Expert mode Skeletron Prime (note: not Master mode Skeletron Prime... Expert mode Skeletron Prime).
Click to expand...

I tried using it with a jousting lance against the Old One's Army. The inability to turn easily or change the lance's angle made that... difficult. But there is a reason I think it belongs in the master mode bag: anything that can outrun the Dungeon Guardian shouldn't be something you can just trip over and get by accident.
 
I regret that I haven't yet gotten far enough to test myself, so I'll ask here - are the buffs to the Crystal Vile Shard and the Nettle Burst "enough"? They don't look that big on paper, and those weapons were screaming for a BIG buff.
 
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