Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Talerax]

but unlike other NPCs they won't leave our town if conditions are unsatisfactory. Yes, leaving.

I think the idea of making NPCs leaving might be too punishing and it will make this happiness matter become an urgent issue that need to deal with asap, as oppose to current inflation that only matter when we actually need to buy something. And as far as I know, there currently no optimal combinations for all NPC pairing, i.e. Goblin and Mechanic love each other but doesn't share their loved biome. So, depending on how much happiness needed to make NPCs stay, there might be someone who will never stay. This might further messing up Pylon network too.

It also bring more questions like, what is the condition for them to spawn again? do we have to go find Mechanic in the dungeon again, or she going to move in once we set up the perfect house with pefect neighbor for her, or she just periodically spawn and decide to permanently stay if she satisfied?

I actually like the idea of having an option to make everyone stay by being rich, my only complain is that it make eveyone look greedy though lol.
Having a NPC that bring a global happiness is also a good idea.

Just to add more on this NPC happiness, I think that we should be able to work around NPC's biome preferences with the furniture choices, so they can feel at home. And when every single NPC, especially Party Girl, don't like a lot of people, it just feel weird. How come there is absolutely no one who like being with more people. Party Girl should be the one who can connect everyone through party and make them stay together, bypass the limitation of nearby NPC number. Maybe leave a few exception that absolutely want to be with few people.

 

[Chnapy]

First of all, I just want to say thank you for all the work you've done for terraria. I tend to be more interested in balance changes than new features, and I think pretty much everything that got me the most excited in 1.4 came from you. Thanks a whole dang lot, leinfors.

Now on the topic of item rebalance :

I'm glad reaver shark lost its sequence breaking capabilities, but much like the molten pickaxe, it paid for its high mining power with a low tool speed. Now it has low speed and low power, making it strictly worse than even a gold pickaxe. You've mentioned upthread thoughts about making it less rare or faster, and I want to speak against that first option. The ocean already has plenty of nonstacking items fished in it, making inventory management while fishing in the ocean pretty tedious.

Instead, the reaver shark could be made better by boosting it's speed so that it would almost be able to compete with the molten pickaxe in a stone-rich environment (10 or 11 tool speed), which would mean it's significantly faster when digging through dirt or mud. Tool speed 10 might be harder to pull off, since that would make it the fastest pickaxe from pre-hm, whereas tool speed 11 would make it a bone pickaxe that can mine Ebonite. Either way it'd be a useful tool to protect your jungle with trenches before going into hardmode, at which point faster pickaxes become the norm.

Another point of contention for me is the phaseblades. They've always been the step-headed red-children of the meteorite family, but the new meteorite-spawning mechanic has pushed it to an absurd level. They're a side grade to lights bane at best, and strictly worse than the blood butcherer, despite being much harder to obtain. "Manual swing melee weapon with no side effect" is a bit of a crowded niche in pre-hm though, so I dunno that just giving them fitting damage would solve the problem. Maybe giving them a parry effect similar to the brand of the inferno, but that would reflect projectiles? It's thematic, but I imagine balance issues might arise if it's too easy to use. Or it could reduce the armour of the target , like some weaker, melee ichor. Or just give it more damage and an autoswing, making it a solid weapon for people who can't get a muramasa? I dunno, just spitballing here. Phasesabers have the same issue, but they're really in the same boat as NE/BB/ore swords, so I think they can be written off already.

I haven't played through the 1.4 hardmode yet (building takes so much time whyyyyy é_è), so my thoughts pretty much stop here. I'll be sure to swing by again if anything else catches my attention, provided we haven't run you out of your own thread with our whining =D

Anyways thanks again for all of your work, as far as I'm concerned, you're the MVP of 1.4

 

[NLZ]

Then we wouldn't have a Dutchman Master drop and we'd be back to the drawing board for making a new one. Don't think that is going to happen.

The Black Spot is way too strong for early Hardmode, it's speed should be nerfed or something.
It provides permanent flight and really high speed, making some bosses like the Twins trivial.

 

[Leinfors]

Maybe giving them a parry effect similar to the brand of the inferno, but that would reflect projectiles? It's thematic, but I imagine balance issues might arise if it's too easy to use.

That's hundreds of hours of testing and bug fixing work, I can tell you right now Not a good fit when a simple damage buff would suffice.

 

[ShadowOfDarkness]

So, I will say, I'm not too far in 1.4 yet, only up to Skeletron, my friend and I are taking this slowly and taking in everything we can.

One thing I don't like so far is just how small the enemies in the Underground Desert got. Only the Giant Antlion Chargers and Antlions are "normal" size. I kinda agree that everything was a bit large before, but now they're so small, they're so hard to hit with pretty much anything pre-hardmode. That coupled with the speed of Antlion Chargers (and now Antlion Larva) makes them genuinely infuriating. They've been a majority of my deaths so far because I swear I should be able to survive there, and yet.. it's really difficult.

Overall, I think the tomb crawlers, antlion chargers/swarmers/larva could stand to be just a tad larger.

 

[Tripoli]

I think the idea of making NPCs leaving might be too punishing and it will make this happiness matter become an urgent issue that need to deal with asap

Yes, and this is exactly why i've outlined list of bro NPCs who will never leave under any circumstances. Just to ensure that Player has a leg to stay before he will face this issue.

>there currently no optimal combinations for all NPC pairing
Yep, this has to be patched somehow, as some aspects of preferences lack internal logic

>what is the condition for them to spawn again?
I think mechanic just spawns in your base, if there is good housing. Or maybe periodically. There might be some better way to make it, but i don't know for now.

>my only complain is that it make eveyone look greedy though lol
Well, it kind of how cities operate IRL. Additionally, existence of some NPCs doesn't make sense to me within the ramifications of "small hamlets" system, as they clearly are townfolk. Take Painter for example.

>I think that we should be able to work around NPC's biome preferences with the furniture choices
That's exactly the thing i warned against. What if i want to build some thematic base, and everybody would have honey furniture as a result? I think something like that is better be ignored and left in the hands of Player.

>especially Party Girl, don't like a lot of people
Yep, exactly. Now let's recall for a second that in 1.3 everyone was throwing Parties. Now they want to be separated.

>Maybe leave a few exception that absolutely want to be with few people.
That's how i see it actually. Some NPCs who would have lore-wise reason to stay alone.

 

[Talerax]

>my only complain is that it make eveyone look greedy though lol
Well, it kind of how cities operate IRL. Additionally, existence of some NPCs doesn't make sense to me within the ramifications of "small hamlets" system, as they clearly are townfolk. Take Painter for example.

I am not seriously complain about that, just that it is too real LOL

>I think that we should be able to work around NPC's biome preferences with the furniture choices
That's exactly the thing i warned against. What if i want to build some thematic base, and everybody would have honey furniture as a result? I think something like that is better be ignored and left in the hands of Player.

In this aspect, it should be able to cancel out with other conditions. So maybe we have choices among: spread them out to their biomes, use furnitures, or have a special NPC that can keep them together no matter how much each of them hate their houses. But now I think about it, why bother with furnitures if I can have that special NPC, it is a lot easier solution for large base without messing with thematic choices.

 

[slendyproject]

What if there was a small "sidequest" system to convince NPCs about biomes they might not like?

Like you could find some rare painting material, in a biome that painter doesnt like, bring it to him and from that point onwards he wont mind living there because he wants to find more of it or something. So basically show something to every NPC that they might appreciate from biomes they dont like. It could be an ongoing side thing throughout the game and it would make them feel more "alive". That way slowly but surely more options would be available to house different groups at different biomes. I think fixing their problems with biomes could be an interesting expansion on the disliked biome side of the system.

 

[Rocketjay]

I think the idea of making NPCs leaving might be too punishing and it will make this happiness matter become an urgent issue that need to deal with asap, as oppose to current inflation that only matter when we actually need to buy something. And as far as I know, there currently no optimal combinations for all NPC pairing, i.e. Goblin and Mechanic love each other but doesn't share their loved biome. So, depending on how much happiness needed to make NPCs stay, there might be someone who will never stay. This might further messing up Pylon network too.

It also bring more questions like, what is the condition for them to spawn again? do we have to go find Mechanic in the dungeon again, or she going to move in once we set up the perfect house with pefect neighbor for her, or she just periodically spawn and decide to permanently stay if she satisfied?

I actually like the idea of having an option to make everyone stay by being rich, my only complain is that it make eveyone look greedy though lol.
Having a NPC that bring a global happiness is also a good idea.

Just to add more on this NPC happiness, I think that we should be able to work around NPC's biome preferences with the furniture choices, so they can feel at home. And when every single NPC, especially Party Girl, don't like a lot of people, it just feel weird. How come there is absolutely no one who like being with more people. Party Girl should be the one who can connect everyone through party and make them stay together, bypass the limitation of nearby NPC number. Maybe leave a few exception that absolutely want to be with few people.

Yeah that's really out of character for her to not like a lot of people.

Especially when she was Inspired after freaking Pinkie Pie.

It really does show that maybe the happiness system isn't as well thought out as it should.

 

[Melt in the Sun]

I can't find the post now, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere @Leinfors said they were looking at Enchanted Sword Shrine rarity.

I've generated a few hundred LARGE, CRIMSON, MASTER worlds over the past couple days (looking for the "perfect" multiplayer world) and here's what I saw: 40% of worlds have no enchanted sword shrine, and the average shrines/world is 0.83. Given that they also don't have the little shaft above them most of the time, IMO that's too rare for an item that you need to make the final sword.

Also, only 25% of worlds now contain a pyramid, and the average pyramids/world is 0.32. Not sure why the nerf on these, they were fun even if only the Sandstorm Bottle was good.

Have any of you spawned directly inside the crimson/corruption when generating a world w/out a seed you found online? I want the chances of spawning in those biomes to increase.

In 300+ worlds I never saw this. I'd say it's probably not possible.

It also seems to be impossible to spawn on a floating island.

 

[YourLocalTerrarian]

I don’t think npc happiness should raise prices above 100%. Punishing players for building the way they like to do is a horrible thing to do. I know that they said they want players to build out into the world, and this is a way to “motivate that”. Well first of all why? Who cares just let people build the way they want to build, either way this is not a motivation this is a punishment, not only to people who prefer mega bases but what about new players? How are they gonna feel when the game has the npcs tell them the way like to build is wrong. The price increase is completely unnecessary, Pylons and price discounts are more than enough motivation to spread out your builds, that way if you prefer big builds you don’t get benefits, but at the same time you don’t get punished and it ends up being the same as it was before.
I know the devs worked hard making the pylons and happiness system, and I don’t think it needs to be removed, I just think prices shouldn’t exceed what they normally are (100%).

 

[Ardhanarishvara]

Instead, the reaver shark could be made better by boosting it's speed so that it would almost be able to compete with the molten pickaxe in a stone-rich environment (10 or 11 tool speed), which would mean it's significantly faster when digging through dirt or mud. Tool speed 10 might be harder to pull off, since that would make it the fastest pickaxe from pre-hm, whereas tool speed 11 would make it a bone pickaxe that can mine Ebonite. Either way it'd be a useful tool to protect your jungle with trenches before going into hardmode, at which point faster pickaxes become the norm.

Any discussion of making the Reaver Shark faster for 'soft' materials is essentially moot because the graveyard shovels exist. Keep in mind those things dig 3x3 snow, sand, mud, dirt, silt, and slush at an amazing pace, and the game is honestly better for them existing when they do, as they do. If the Reaver Shark was only viable for stone at the same pace that a Molten Pick did it, there'd still be little to no point in it, since one could just go down and get the molten pick. Unless it is faster, unless it is better, the amount of effort that it takes to get a reaver shark on any non-small, non-classic world would make it worth too little to actually bother with, and the time between getting a molten pick and getting a cobalt pick is so short that it being better than molten for stone alone but worse than cobalt would STILL be pointless. There is a little bit of room for it, if people decide to stall hardmode to build, but in my experience, that is not how the average player does things.

As far as I see it, there's roughly two avenues to give the Reaver Shark good usage again:

1. It can be combined with the Molten Pick to create something that can mine mythril, essentially skipping the cobalt pick. This is the worse option of the two by a significant margin, by my measurements.
   
   
2. It can be combined with something, or perhaps a couple somethings, from lava fishing, to make it once again skip the Evil pickaxe tier. It would still have its sequence-breaking potential, which is where its value initially came from, but it would take far more effort to acquire, as lingering in the Underworld for the extremely slow lava fishing in the early game in Expert and Master would in and of itself be a true test of patience, and harrowing to boot given that imps and bone serpents do not care what kind of cover you have to protect you.

 

[Coolqwerts]

I kno

I can't find the post now, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere @Leinfors said they were looking at Enchanted Sword Shrine rarity.

I've generated a few hundred LARGE, CRIMSON, MASTER worlds over the past couple days (looking for the "perfect" multiplayer world) and here's what I saw: 40% of worlds have no enchanted sword shrine, and the average shrines/world is 0.83. Given that they also don't have the little shaft above them most of the time, IMO that's too rare for an item that you need to make the final sword.

Also, only 25% of worlds now contain a pyramid, and the average pyramids/world is 0.32. Not sure why the nerf on these, they were fun even if only the Sandstorm Bottle was good.


In 300+ worlds I never saw this. I'd say it's probably not possible.

It also seems to be impossible to spawn on a floating island.

Oh no, it is possible it's just really rare (at least for corruption never seen someone spawn in a crimson).

 

[Melt in the Sun]

I kno
Oh no, it is possible it's just really rare (at least for corruption never seen someone spawn in a crimson).

In 1.4?

 

[plsfixresolution]

I think that the armor sets for the other classes that are used before fighting the moon lord should have more defense, because they seem really underwhelming when compared to the beetle armor, and there is armor sets like the spooky armor, which are not that much of an upgrade compared to the tiki armor, and is probably in need for a buff in my opinion.
Also make zoom on 720p screens the same as on 1080p screens or whatever please k thanks bye

 

[White_Shadow]

I think that the armor sets for the other classes that are used before fighting the moon lord should have more defense, because they seem really underwhelming when compared to the beetle armor, and there is armor sets like the spooky armor, which are nearly useless, because the tiki armor has more defense and a bonus set for more minions, while the spooky armor have a unsignificant amount of minion damage.
Also make zoom on 720p screens the same as on 1080p screens or whatever please k thanks bye

Spooky Armor gives the same amount of minions as Tiki, and it has a higher damage boost

 

[Coolqwerts]

In 1.4?

probably not I guess now that I think about it. World gen can be weird though.

 

[plsfixresolution]

Tiki armor has a set bonus that gives 1 more minion

Actually im trippin' just checked the wiki oops
Also something something resolution because i cannot make a comment without something without talking about zoom

 

[Talerax]

It can be combined with something, or perhaps a couple somethings, from lava fishing, to make it once again skip the Evil pickaxe tier. It would still have its sequence-breaking potential, which is where its value initially came from, but it would take far more effort to acquire, as lingering in the Underworld for the extremely slow lava fishing in the early game in Expert and Master would in and of itself be a true test of patience, and harrowing to boot given that imps and bone serpents do not care what kind of cover you have to protect you.

Wow, I really love this idea. But the problem is, you need lavaproof bug net to catch baits for lava fishing, and you need hellstone to craft lavaproof bug net. We will need to tweak some more things to make this works.

 

[NatsumiRin]

Wizard sacrifices defence in the extreme for equal parts power and economy - though with neither being as strong as either meteor or jungle, and ends up becoming a glass cannon that dies to

Wizard is actually better than both meteor and jungle. (ignore defence, it means nothing in expert and master)

Wizard hat + diamond robe gives 15% magic damage, 10% magic crit, 80+ mana, and -15% mana usage. Then you still have the leg slot, which you can use for jungle 20+ mana/4% crit or meteor 7% damage (giving the total set 22% damage, higher than meteor and 3 other stats).