Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Leinfors]

Crimson things being better than Corrupt (on a one to one basis, even if there are exceptions) is an intended policy that Red has had since the beginning, just like Alt Ores being slightly better than Non-Alt Ore equipment. (To stave this off, Legacy Ore armors not having special perks is also non-negotiable, but I'm looking into raw stat bonuses as a potential improvement)

Sometimes things fail to meet that goal (Legacy BoC vs Worm Scarf), and sometimes the difference is too extreme (Cursed Flame/Ichor). But this is a core policy of his that I would need to work within the confines of, and isn't something I can abolish.

As for BoC 2.0 being too strong, I would say that the most likely adjustment would either be a reduction to the Dodge chance, or a reduction in the Crit potency. I don't see a flat removal of the Crit perk. Big changes work best with time to iterate, and I can definitely re-assess its current state for adjustment.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

The dodge chance, on its own, is fine. But getting 20% extra crit is kind of nuts. It's basically a reward for getting hit and not taking damage.. when the reward should be you got hit and didn't take the damage from the hit.

The critical chance going down to something like 10% would be fine in my eyes. It's less overbearingly powerful then.

Giving stuff like Adamantite higher raw stats without any gimmick would be fine, too. I'm a fan of utility vs unga bunga options as long as the options are actual options.

 

[Henrii]

Something that annoys me with character customization is that female characters don't get robes/togas. Like, dresses are fine I guess, but robes are cool too and I would like to be able to make a female char with a robe.

 

[Peasant]

EDIT: previous post had too many grammatical errors. Deleted and reposted:

Night's Edge deserves to be buffed and have its crafting cost increased to match its caliber.

Night's Edge was supposed to be THE pre-HM sword to rule them all, and yet it is stuck in the past. From the meele options currently avaliable, Sunfury is way better than NE. It deals more damage, has a long range, can hit twice, nas a 180° hitbox, sets enemies on fire and can work as a stationary spiky ball. NE is limited to the direction you're facing, doesn't have the large range of Fiery Greatsword, doesn't apply any debuffs like Fiery Greatsword's fire, doesn't light up darkness like Fiery Greatsword and doesn't have autoswing like Muramasa. If it wasn't for the higher damage, even Fiery Greatsword would outstand NE.

If Night's Edge is buffed, it doesn't make much sense to me for it to have such a simple and easy to get recipe. This iconic symbol of might combines the power of the world and each of its biomes: evil, jungle, dungeon and hell, a symbol of conquest of the land, and that doesn't mean much when it doesn't truly testify for your domination of all the biomes. The ones missing being desert, snow, space, mushroom, granite, marble and probably others I can't remember. Unfortunately, there are no swords from these places to add to the recipe, specially not swords that are guaranteed to be obtained by crafting (you might not get a Starfury, for example).

I believe this blade should come back to its former glory, that has been forgotten in the past, via a considerable enhancement of power and symbolism. I'd be willing to research further into the crafting recipe options and even damage numbers if this is of OP's interest.

 

[ReallyBadSuntan]

There’s a lot of posts here so I’m not sure if this has already been suggested, but can something be done about dashing being locked to double tapping the forward button? Like it’s impossible for me to use the shield of Cthulhu or the master ninja gear. It’s way too easy to dash by accident like this. I would really like if I could map dashing to a single button to fix this.

(just to make a little edit here) I would consider this option to not just be for quality of life, but also that it’s a buff in a way. And that’s solely because these items would be far more controllable by the player. I literally do not use them because the intended benefits are not worth the trouble of randomly dashing. It’s too much of an inconvenience to the point where I see these items as a downgrade.

 

[Melt in the Sun]

If I were you I'd close it. People seem to be unable to honor the boundaries of the thread.

 

[Alynia]

EDIT: previous post had too many grammatical errors. Deleted and reposted:

Night's Edge deserves to be buffed and have its crafting cost increased to match its caliber.

Night's Edge was supposed to be THE pre-HM sword to rule them all, and yet it is stuck in the past. From the meele options currently avaliable, Sunfury is way better than NE. It deals more damage, has a long range, can hit twice, nas a 180° hitbox, sets enemies on fire and can work as a stationary spiky ball. NE is limited to the direction you're facing, doesn't have the large range of Fiery Greatsword, doesn't apply any debuffs like Fiery Greatsword's fire, doesn't light up darkness like Fiery Greatsword and doesn't have autoswing like Muramasa. If it wasn't for the higher damage, even Fiery Greatsword would outstand NE.

If Night's Edge is buffed, it doesn't make much sense to me for it to have such a simple and easy to get recipe. This iconic symbol of might combines the power of the world and each of its biomes: evil, jungle, dungeon and hell, a symbol of conquest of the land, and that doesn't mean much when it doesn't truly testify for your domination of all the biomes. The ones missing being desert, snow, space, mushroom, granite, marble and probably others I can't remember. Unfortunately, there are no swords from these places to add to the recipe, specially not swords that are guaranteed to be obtained by crafting (you might not get a Starfury, for example).

I believe this blade should come back to its former glory, that has been forgotten in the past, via a considerable enhancement of power and symbolism. I'd be willing to research further into the crafting recipe options and even damage numbers if this is of OP's interest.

Night's Edge is, in my opinion, in one of the single most tricky to balance places in the game. I intend to revisit it. However, I feel somewhat hamstrung.

On one hand, it SHOULD be among the best pre-HM melee weapons, if not the best. However, the more I buff it, the more it infringes on Breaker Blade, which previously barely stood on its own two feet (its new buff offering something of value, though I don't fool myself into thinking Breaker is the new meta). The more I buff it, the more it impacts the ever-underutilized ore swords. I don't want to introduce a scenario where people make NE and then . . . everything in HM is a downgrade. But I also don't think it is strong enough. I've had a lot of discussions with Loki about it, and I hope to come to some sort of conclusion in the end, but I consider the NE/BB/Ore Sword trio to be very tricky to work with.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

The way I'd approach it is...

- Give Night's Edge a basic projectile so it has the niche of being a projectile sword before you get into the stronger ones available (and so that Enchanted Sword effectively has a pre-HM upgrade),

- Turn Breaker Blade into something that functions like a Jousting Lance (something you hold out but can't reposition) so that its larger size matters,

- Just don't worry about the HM Ore Swords because people aren't using those to begin with outside of filler beatsticks

 

[Peasant]

Would it be fair to say that Terraria's clusterduck of weapons (and tools) is a problem? Specially when it comes to balancing them...

Wouldn't removing some of those help the balance? What if you remove them mechanically, but keep them visualy, turning the removed ones into variants of the kept ones, with the exact same stats and functionality, just different names and sprites?

People will certainly complain about the removal of weapons, but I've been playing since 1.1 and I've hardly, if ever, touched the majority of them...

 

[Vintorez]

The Fire Gauntlet is still considered a downgrade from the Mechanical Glove it's crafted from. Simply matching the melee speed and damage increase will balance it easily, but it would be more interesting to give it a proper hardmode trait, like occasionally spawning a friendly fire/lava bat for a short time.

 

[WatcherCCG]

I've honestly been considering closing the thread until things have settled down and I'm in a better place to engage in the discourse that it deserves. I'm not sure if its better to leave it open and risk people feeling ignored, or close it with an explanation.

That might be for the best, so long as you leave assurances you'll reopen it or post a new thread once the hotfix phase is over with. True fans are patient and will wait until you can devote your full attention to their feedback.

 

[Leinfors]

Would it be fair to say that Terraria's clusterduck of weapons (and tools) is a problem? Specially when it comes to balancing them...

Wouldn't removing some of those help the balance? What if you remove them mechanically, but keep them visualy, turning the removed ones into variants of the kept ones, with the exact same stats and functionality, just different names and sprites?

People will certainly complain about the removal of weapons, but I've been playing since 1.1 and I've hardly, if ever, touched the majority of them...

Removing items to balance other items would be a worst case nightmare scenario that would result in a firestorm of backlash and negative response. Even turning them into identical clones of each other would probably cause that result. I'd rather have a permanent lack of balance on some items that cause that sort of controversy.

We still get frequent negative feedback about the removal of the effectively redundant Keymold items.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

I think items wouldn't need to be removed if we could just use one weapon's sprite as the default appearance for another weapon without having to mod it in. I adore Phasesabers, but they fall off. But if I could use one over my Terra Blade, that'd be slick.

We still get frequent negative feedback about the removal of the effectively redundant Keymold items.

The problem with the removal of Key Molds was because if you wanted another Piranha Gun, you couldn't just take a stashed Jungle Key Mold, turn it into a Jungle Key, and go ransack a new world from the start.

You had to make a new world, burn a Guide Voodoo Doll, wait until night to kill Skeletron, then all three Mechanical Bosses, then wait for a Plantera Bulb to spawn because Plantera still doesn't have a summoning item.

If Plantera had a dedicated summoning item, it wouldn't matter as much. It'd just be a little extra work instead of a lot of extra waiting followed by.. a lot of extra waiting.

 

[Linux_Forever (Yvanoff)]

But it really isn't that much harder. Not hard enough to warrant this level of disparity. Why does Crimson need to simply be better? It has a few stronger enemies and one boss that's slightly more annoying than Eater of Worlds is, yet its loot is leagues above the majority of what the Corruption offers. The only disadvantage to Crimson now is that you can't get Mana Regeneration Band/Magic Cuffs there, and that's an entirely different problem that needs addressing on its own.

Well, it is an old Terraria problem, and Leinfors's answer makes it clear that this is an intended policy from the lead developer, as baffling as it may be.
But you have at least the choice between "easy" corruption and "hard" crimson, which almost makes it fine.
I still can't figure out how anyone could think the alternate ore balance was right, when Palladium is absurdly better than Cobalt (who wants Cobalt in their world ? Seriously, who ?) and you end up with completely absurd situation such as having tungsten and gold in your world (meaning there's no reason to grind for gold seeing the minimal benefit from it, it's better to kill bosses with tungsten) or at the opposite end of the spectrum, having silver and platinum (where you NEED to upgrade because of the incredible gap between in gear quality between the two ores).

And you have no control over this. You will randomly have minimal difference between pre Hardmode ores, or huge gaps between them. You will randomly have a much easier or harder time surviving early hardmode. I can't think of many games where balance is left entirely to RNG.

 

[RuffeLazuli]

Something that I've had a huge problem with so far is the realization that summoner still feels like an off-class still, even with the adding of whips. This is especially apparent in Pre-Hardmode, where summoners are stuck with no accessories, 7 possible weapons, and a singular effective summoner armor set. While the inclusion of a Hallowed armor head piece for Summoner is a nice addition, I still am confused why the other hardmode ore sets lack a summoner head piece. It seems weird and backwards for summoners to miss out on chlorophyte and all the hardmode ores. And for them, there simply is not a reason to mine chlorophyte at all. You can't craft any summoner armor, weapons, or accessories from the stuff, which is unfair for the class.

Looking a the broad picture of things, It feels like even with the removal of the Throwing class, Summoner has adopted its place of being an off-class, and one that has gotten the short end of the stick even since 1.2. I feel like adding a few more minions and accessories to prehardmode and possibly hardmode, as well as giving summoner head pieces for chlorophyte and hardmode ore armor sets would help it compete with the other classes for being an effective and versatile class to play.

 

[CaesarBoi]

I hope this thread is the right place to show this minor thing(can't stress enough how minor it is) and this hasn't been asked yet. I really appreciated that the update changed rain color to match that of the biome the player's currently in. When I was making a custom hallow cloud island, I noticed that the effect produced by the rain cloud blocks didn't appear to change.

Spoiler: Example

I'd be stoked if the effect could change to pink/red/what have you, though if it isn't I won't be so disappointed as to imitate the legendary "orange torch campaign."

Spoiler: Obligatory crimson/corruption examples

Although, the corruption almost looks as if it does change the effect. Perhaps it's the background? Thanks for choosing to put extra work into following this thread btw, it's quite admirable.

 

[Alaron]

The candid answer is that we are extremely busy with high priority bug fixes right now, and its taking up 12-15 hours of my attention per day. I'm more or less completely overwhelmed by it and the dedicated attention time I need to even begin balance review is at least a week off. I've had, at most, time to skim the thread the past few days.

This is also impacted by the fact that 80% of the discussion in this thread is not within my scope of ability to change directly, despite my attempts to explain such, so I've had very little to say.

I've honestly been considering closing the thread until things have settled down and I'm in a better place to engage in the discourse that it deserves. I'm not sure if its better to leave it open and risk people feeling ignored, or close it with an explanation.

I think closing it for a bit is a good idea. It gives you time to catch up, and it gives us more time to experiment and consider what exactly we think needs to be changed and why.

For a few years now, people have been asking "What good is the original grappling hook anymore?"

Maybe that's the answer. Journey starter equipment!

I'd support this, lack of mobility/mining speed are my main reasons for wanting to skip prehardmode.

 

[base4]

I have some thoughts on the Night's Edge problem. The Night's Edge needs to not overshadow the Breaker Blade, and have less stats then the hardmode ore swords. I think, then, that the only real solution is to find a niche for the Night's Edge to fill that only applies to pre-hardmode specifically. However, arbitrarily buffing it for only pre-hardmode would be rather foolish - it can't just deal double damage only during pre-hardmode.

I have a proposal, then. Something that stands out a lot between hardmode and pre-hardmode is defense. Enemies have way more defense in hardmode - though this is not universal. The transition between hardmode defense and pre-hardmode defense is rather large across the board. If the Night's Edge had some additional damaging debuff or special effect that dealt additional damage to enemies with less defense - then it could be very useful in pre-hardmode, but not very useful in hardmode when enemy defenses are much higher.

I'd call the cutoff point about 18 or 20 defense. When attacking enemies with equal to or above that amount of defense, there's no special effect. Either that, or the effect scales directly with enemy defense, getting weaker as enemy defenses approach, say, 20. On the other hand, some enemies in hardmode don't have defense and would therefore get absolutely bodied by the NE.

Or it could simply "deal more damage to ""weak"" enemies", weak being pre-hardmode enemies and bosses - though that would be obscure and arbitrary if not explicitly stated to the player in some way.

I think that the point here is that the Night's Edge problem either has no solution, or a creative solution. But it's a very careful balancing act, given the intricacies of the transition between pre-hardmode and hardmode.

 

[Leinfors]

As I said at the time, this was NOT a balance change, but we tracked down the Mana Star dropping bug and fixed it. Should be in the next hotfix, stars will be back to their old drop rate from 1.3.5.3.

It looks like it was a casualty of some drop code related changes we did back when we restructured drops for Bestiary stuff. Stars were still dropping regularly, but significantly less frequently.

 

[Alliostra]

I think bone arrows deserve to be buffed further to not be useless in comparison to jester's arrows, my idea is to vastly increase their velocity to match the theme of the marrow, while buffing the damage to 10-12 damage, or perhaps adding some armor-ignoring capabilities while perhaps removing their piercing abilities.