Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Nicol Bolas said:
1)Hellstone weapons are intended to be higher tier than Jungle weapons.



2)Flamelash penetrates, MM does not.



3)Sky chest equipment is supposed to be better than something you can find in a random cave on the ground.
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1)You are right. What I'm saying would imply making bee gear better or comparable to hellstone crafts, which would look weird for progression. I thought about this because I find it easier to rush hellstone than to kill the bee first, but that would mean changing game balance a lot, and I'm pretty sure the devs don't intend to do that.

2) Your point is good, and I think piercing makes the 10 dps difference worth it . However, before the homing was added, flamelash could generally have better dps than magic missile, and if we use the bluemoon->sunfury or handgun->phoenix blaster improvement as a guideline, -10dps + pierce does not sound like a great deal, it is acceptable though.

3) Golf club makes finding islands super easy. This might be due to my personal experience, but finding the 4 islands in a small world feels easier than finding the 0 , 1, or 2 shrines. Also, the difference in dps is enormous.


I think Johann raises a good point. If you don't want players to play hybrid armors you should make sure set bonuses are useful. This was done pretty well with the turtle set and the new melee chlorophyte set. It might be worth considering doing something similar with shroomite armor, adamantite and others.

PS: Ghastly glaive is bad. Calamity gave it a 100% boost for a reason.
 
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draeken said:
I think Johann raises a good point. If you don't want players to play hybrid armors you should make sure set bonuses are useful. This was done pretty well with the turtle set and the new melee chlorophyte set. It might be worth considering doing something similar with shroomite armor, adamantite and others.
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I don't want to take away players' ability to hybridize, but I think that the viability of armor sets needs to be preserved foremost. Hybridization should be something that is viable in addition, not a straight-up improvement. It's no fun to have people telling you that you shouldn't wear the full armor set because its set bonus isn't worth it.
 
draeken said:
3) Golf club makes finding islands super easy. This might be due to my personal experience, but finding the 4 islands in a small world feels easier than finding the 0 , 1, or 2 shrines. Also, the difference in dps is enormous.
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It's important to remember that Terraria has to work for people who have never played Terraria before. Those people are far more likely to find shrines than floating islands. Shrines, when they spawn, tend to have a small tube to the surface that basically says "explore here". Floating islands are something you either accidentally stumble across at some point or you read about them on the Wiki.

If you stumble across one, and take the time to search for the rest, then you should get more of a reward than you get from a hole in the ground ;)
 
The Grand Design doesn't actually let you turn off the ability to see wires, it just dimms it. Can we fix that please? Sometimes it is hard to see the elegance of a contraption when most of it is covered by wires, and I would like to not have to go to the trouble of getting it out of my research menu every time I want to use it.
Also, in the Duplication Menu, it groups furniture by type, like all the chairs, then all the doors, but can we instead have it organized by furniture SET instead? When I'm building a house it is rather inconvenient to go and hunt down the right furniture for that type. Also put the background walls by the furniture, please. They are in a way different section and it would be nice not to go hunt those down as well, when there are thousands of items.
 
draeken said:
3) Golf club makes finding islands super easy. This might be due to my personal experience, but finding the 4 islands in a small world feels easier than finding the 0 , 1, or 2 shrines. Also, the difference in dps is enormous.
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Sure, but to get the golf club, you have to venture into the Underground Desert, which is hardly a place for freshly created characters. At this point I'd rather go into the Underground Jungle than the Desert. If you can survive down there and get the Golfer, you earned yourself the Floating Islands.




Speaking of the Desert:
When I look at the weapons you can get from the Desert, I have to say that they are only good if you find them from a fishing crate, rather than from an actual chest.

The Underground Desert now features some of the most damaging enemies of all of pre-HM, tons of rolling cacti that can shred you in a moment and endless larvas to pester you while you try to avoid the other enemies.
In contrast to that, the equipment you get is all still scaled to the times when it was a lot easier down there and isn't even adequate to deal with the very enemies you need to kill in order to get them.
By the time you can get these items, they're already obsolete and should be buffed to a level comparable to Jungle weapons.

Fossil Armor is really tricky to deal with, though. Its stats are now woefully inadequate for an armor set that challenging to get, but if you buff it to the level of Jungle Armor, you'd basically end up with Necro Armor, but as it is, it's weaker than Ninja Armor and only gives its ammo conservation and a tiny bit of defense over Pumpkin Armor. Even a simple Gi purchased from the Travelling Merchant will manage to match this armor set.
The only things I could think of is either making this set a side-grade to Necro armor like Meteor Armor is to Jungle Armor, possibly granting a boost to projectile velocity instead of ammo conservation?
Or maybe turn this into a ranger/summoner hybrid with +10% damage, 1 minion slot and 13 defense.

If rangers should really have a dedicated set that can be acquired before the dungeon, I suggest the appropriately named and looking Obsidian Outlaw set, which could easily fill that role with some minor tweaks.
 
It's a bit odd that only the finch summon persists when dying or exiting and reentering the world. When I first noticed that, I thought it was a universal change to minions, but it's just that one that does it... was that intentional or an oversight? It'd be a massive quality of life change if every minion functioned like that, but I understand if that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Also, is there a dedicated place for bug reports, or should we just post those here as well? The latest update bugged capes and wings, now if you wear a cape and wings, the wings no longer show, the cape just stays.
 
JamesDNaux said:
It's a bit odd that only the finch summon persists when dying or exiting and reentering the world. When I first noticed that, I thought it was a universal change to minions, but it's just that one that does it... was that intentional or an oversight? It'd be a massive quality of life change if every minion functioned like that, but I understand if that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Also, is there a dedicated place for bug reports, or should we just post those here as well? The latest update bugged capes and wings, now if you wear a cape and wings, the wings no longer show, the cape just stays.
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I think that was intentional, as your finch would need to be active upon generating a new Journey world
 
Summoners suffer for early game gear, but there's a wealth of it in hardmode. At the beginning of hardmode, the Blade and Spider Staffs become available from normal enemies, as well as the Pirate, Optic, and Sanguine Staffs from bosses and events. After Plantera, the Pygmy, Desert Tiger, Deadly Sphere, and Raven Staffs (as well as Terraprisma, for the ambitious) are available in pretty rapid succession.

A wild idea (but one that doesn't involve making whole new items) might be to move the entire Pygmy collection of items to prehardmode and make it craftable from Jungle ingredients. The necklace (which could perhaps require bones from the Dungeon or even a dropped Skull) would give prehardmode summoners a non-armor boost, Pygmy Armor crafted out of jungle ingredients (and obviously, suitably nerfed for its new place) would give summoners an option for multiple summons before Queen Bee, who is quite tedious to beat with only a single minion. (Perhaps it could give an extra minion over Bee Armor, but with a much smaller damage buff and less defense, similar to its current relationship with Spooky Armor.) The Pygmy staff could be craftable, meaning that unlucky summoners won't have to go straight to hell.

...Like I said, maybe too drastic of a change. The other summoner stuff, I think, is tied too hard to specific enemies that drop them to think about moving them, though. There's just a flood of stuff at that particular part of the game that probably doesn't see a lot of use, and a drought at the beginning where other classes have a lot of options.

Also, just to throw my hat into another argument: I love Zenith.
 
The change to Vanity accessory slots was a big indirect nerf to Shiny Stone; in 1.3 you simply kept it in vanity and quickly swapped to it when needed, but now that can't be done because Shiny Stone doesn't have a visual on the character and thus can't be left in vanity. Making a sprite for it when equipped will fix this issue and it shouldn't take very long.

EDIT: Actually, you can still use it from the inventory, since right click always puts it at the top, so this isn't a big issue

Speaking of "using from vanity", Charm of Myths should inflict Potion Sickness for 5 seconds when first equipped; using it from a vanity slot (quickswap to it when you drink the Healing potion, you get the reduced cooldown without needing to use up a slot) is extremely easy and it's essentially like having an extra accessory slot.
 
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Hello!
I believe that Terraprisma is unbalanced. It is stronger than Stardust Cell Staff and Stardust Dragon Staff. I understand that it is very difficult to get it, but it is still quite realistic to do it before Lunar Events. This means that Stardust Cell Staff and Stardust Dragon Staff are useless. I may be wrong, but so far it looks like this.
P.S. I used Google translate, so there may be errors in the text.
 
Evgeniy1998 said:
Hello!
I believe that Terraprisma is unbalanced. It is stronger than Stardust Cell Staff and Stardust Dragon Staff. I understand that it is very difficult to get it, but it is still quite realistic to do it before Lunar Events. This means that Stardust Cell Staff and Stardust Dragon Staff are useless. I may be wrong, but so far it looks like this.
P.S. I used Google translate, so there may be errors in the text.
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Yeah, of course it's broken. It's the hardest boss battle in the game, you better get something good out of it.
 
Jota Bame said:
The change to Vanity accessory slots was a big indirect nerf to Shiny Stone; in 1.3 you simply kept it in vanity and quickly swapped to it when needed, but now that can't be done because Shiny Stone doesn't have a visual on the character and thus can't be left in vanity. Making a sprite for it when equipped will fix this issue and it shouldn't take very long.

Speaking of "using from vanity", Charm of Myths should inflict Potion Sickness for 5 seconds when first equipped; using it from a vanity slot (quickswap to it when you drink the Healing potion, you get the reduced cooldown without really needing to use the slot) is extremely easy and it's essentially like having an extra accessory slot.
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I don't see an issue with quick swapping the Charm of Myths. The way it is now if you quick swap it to heal it's taking an action that normally is just "press H" and adding a bit more of a skill ceiling to it. People who put in the extra effort to quick swap it in the heat of battle should be rewarded for putting in the extra effort, not punished and encouraged to use it in the obvious, easy way.
 
Knotw said:
I don't see an issue with quick swapping the Charm of Myths. The way it is now if you quick swap it to heal it's taking an action that normally is just "press H" and adding a bit more of a skill ceiling to it. People who put in the extra effort to quick swap it in the heat of battle should be rewarded for putting in the extra effort, not punished and encouraged to use it in the obvious, easy way.
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You said it yourself, it's "a bit more skill" for a free accessory. My proposal doesn't remove it from the game either, you just have to wait a couple more seconds or equip it a short time before your natural Potion Sickness ends to abuse it.

I like micromanaging with it, but the way it is right now it takes way too little effort to get a pretty big reward.
 
Jota Bame said:
The change to Vanity accessory slots was a big indirect nerf to Shiny Stone; in 1.3 you simply kept it in vanity and quickly swapped to it when needed, but now that can't be done because Shiny Stone doesn't have a visual on the character and thus can't be left in vanity. Making a sprite for it when equipped will fix this issue and it shouldn't take very long.
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It can still be done by rightclicking from inventory. 1.4 changed it so that it always swaps out the top accessoire, rather than randomly going through all slots.
With this, the only thing that's lost is deciding which accessoire it needs to swap out. As this makes the top accessoire more important for swapping out than other slots.
 
Jota Bame said:
You said it yourself, it's "a bit more skill" for a free accessory. My proposal doesn't remove it from the game either, you just have to wait a couple more seconds or equip it a short time before your natural Potion Sickness ends to abuse it.

I like micromanaging with it, but the way it is right now it takes way too little effort to get a pretty big reward.
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It's still quintupling the amount of inputs needed to heal vs just leaving it equipped and on top of that by using it in this way you are trading the passive regen for whatever accessory you're swapping it for. Also you lose the benefit of whatever accessory got swapped for however long it takes you to do this on top of the dps loss from having to move your cursor away from whatever you're fighting.

To maximize the benefit from quick swapping the charm of myths you have to pay closer attention to the potion sickness timer to time it properly on top of performing a comparatively much more complex input very quickly. If your timing is off or you're not performing the quick swap quickly enough then you're invisibly reducing the potion sickness reduction by a few seconds vs leaving it equipped and just mashing the H key. Adding an unavoidable extra 5 seconds of potion sickness to the effective 1-3 you add from the time it takes to actually perform the quick swap is a massive nerf to a strategy that's far more interesting than the obvious use of just leaving the Charm of Myths equipped and mashing H to get the heal as quickly as possible.
 
The Reaver Shark could be retooled as a Gravedigger's Shovel, but for hard blocks, while retaining its current nerfed pickaxe power.

Also I think the Dark Lance and Gungnir should be granted an after-image that deals constant damage equal to 50% and 75% of the spear's power respectively so that they can have more of a use in comparison to other Melee weapons.

Finally, I think the Venus Magnum needs:
(Light change) To have its use time lowered even more so fast fingers can achieve a high DPS
OR
(Heavy change) To automatically covert bullets into Chlorophyte Bullets (sans damage) instead of High-Velocity bullets
 
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So, I have another concern that I think should be addressed in an update.

1.4 Promised that the update would be buffing Golem, which everyone agreed was a good change. Golem was a complete pushover relative to the gear you can get before him. To clarify, this is what defeating Plantera opens up:

- Frost Moon
- Pumpkin Moon
- Empress of Light
- Hardmode Dungeon

You can likely beat Golem with the loot you have after beating Plantera, but this makes progression very strange. It would make sense to grind in the Hardmode Dungeon, Moon Events, and maybe even battle the Empress of Light if you think you can handle it to grab loot to power up for the fight against Golem. But you don't have to do this, as Golem is such a pushover that you can just kill him and unlock Martian Madness, getting you even more powerful loot. 1.4 made Golem harder to cheese (which is a good change) but even if you fight him in the temple as intended the boss is still extremely easy. Golem is a boss that is a main part of progression. He shouldn't be as insane as optional challenges, but he should definitely be way harder than Plantera, and make it worthwhile to grind for gear. Aside from giving him new attacks, buffing his HP and Damage even more would be a positive change, which brings me onto my next point.

Lunatic Cultist is also a complete pushover for being a main progression boss, and the penultimate boss of the game. Perhaps the point was that the Pillars and Moon Lord are the main challenge, which I can understand, but Lunatic Cultist is so easy that along with golem being easy, it raises problems in the games progression. Heres an example of what I mean.

So, you've defeated Plantera, which as stated before unlocks a load of new events and areas to grind for more powerful gear and loot in. You try to fight Golem but you are completely undergeared for the boss with Pre-Plantera loot. So, a player will go to the hardmode dungeon to get gear, and maybe even the pumpkin and frost moon to get incredibly strong weapons. If a player is good enough, they could grab a weapon from Empress or Fishron to help them with the fight. So now geared up, the player goes back to Golem, and its much more do-able, but still a challenging fight, even with proper gear. The boss should still be a threat, even after you gear up with all of the post-plantera. After defeating Golem, let's say a player tries to rush Lunatic. They get stomped, so they go to gear up even more by fighting Martian Madness, Old Ones T3, and Empress or Fishron if they have not done so already. Now, with their new-found gear, they are able to defeat Lunatic, and start the lunar event, which allows them to get the best items in the game. This is how progression could look if Golem and Lunatic Cultist were buffed, I believe it would fix the problem with the 6 or so post plantera events that all vary in terms of challenge and loot. Here's an example of how progression could look currently, without the bosses buffs.

You defeat Plantera and rush the Temple. Because of Golem being an easy fight, you kill him and unlock the cultists. The Cultist isn't too hard either, and even with gear from Golem/Hardmode Dungeon, you can easily take him out. Now you can rush a pillar and get the best weapon for each class in the game pre-Moon Lord, and invalidate all other events.

Now, I don't want to force players to progress in a certain way with this change. There would still be options, and you wouldn't be forced to do all of the events and bosses that are available post-Plantera to defeat Golem, but I do think that buffing these two bosses would give people motivation to do these events and gear up, without forcing them to play a certain way. Post-Plantera progression has been pretty jank in general, and hopefully buffing Golem and Cultist could help fix this problem.

(Also to clarify, my problem isn't that you can go from Plantera right to Golem right to Lunatic, my problem is that with how Golem and Lunatic currently are, its way too easy)
 
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