Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Razor_Typhoon]

Remove all block piercing enemy projectiles from the Dungeon.
No one likes these, they add nothing to balance, they just ramp the difficulty up to obscene levels for absolutely no reason. You have ZERO options to deal with any of this until hardmode, it baffles me to think anyone thought this was a good idea.

Tight corridors, traps everywhere, an almost endless river of enemies, false walls you have to slowly dig through, and ON TOP of all that an enemy that shoots projectiles through walls and teleports all over the place.
The ONLY options to deal with these kinds of enemies are the Death Sickle, Solar Eruption, or Zenith. If you are NOT melee and are NOT in hardmode, you have ZERO options for dealing with them besides hoping they teleport somewhere you can get to quickly.
Let me repeat that, if you are NOT melee, you will NEVER have an option to deal with them.

And then eventually they add three new types of this enemy that can either A) Kill you instantly or B) Blind you.

Making this plea for mercy with whatever development power you have because I'm currently trying to get a single item from the dungeon, you always forget how bad it is after a while of not being in there, then when you're pre-hardmode and it's time to go get some dungeon loot you remember what an absolute frustrating mess the dungeon is.

While I hate the diabolist to death, I don't think removing it would be the solution, instead a nerf would fix them (along with ragged casters and necromancers) by either making them deal
less damage, give them a longer cooldown before firing or even outright making them not teleport the moment you hit them.

 

[MasterworkStone]

While I hate the diabolist to death, I don't think removing it would be the solution, instead a nerf would fix them (along with ragged casters and necromancers) by either making them deal
less damage, give them a longer cooldown before firing or even outright making them not teleport the moment you hit them.

That doesn't fix the problem at all, you still have zero options to hurt them at their usual range through walls until after you take out the solar pillar.
The projectiles of Dark Casters, Diablolist, and Ragged Casters should NOT pierce walls. This is LITERAL CHEATING on the game's part.

Lets count all the enemies in Terraria with projectiles that piece blocks and are NOT part of an event or boss fight:

1. Dark Casters (Very common)
2. Fire Imp (Common)
3. Tim (Rare)
4. Giant Fungai Bulb (Common)
5. Desert Spirit (Uncommon)
6. Rune Wizard (Rare)
7. Diabolist (Very common)
8. Ragged Caster (Very common)

There are EIGHT enemies like this in the game, FIVE of them don't actively try to make you hate the game, and the ONLY THREE that do are ALL found in the dungeon and are VERY COMMON.

This needs to be changed, their projectiles should not pierce blocks, there is no argument you can make in favor of keeping something this bad the same.

Made this post in blind rage over a game mechanic instead of thinking about it, feel free to ignore this post.

 

[Alfieboris🌳]

Here are some random ideas plus QoL suggestions.

Spoiler: Brain of Confusion

Brain of Confusion

Apparently it says on the wiki it does not only add 10% crit chance but it even adds 10% summon damage so it would be nice if the tooltip mentioned it.
Like this:
Temporarily increases critical chance and summon damage after a dodge.

Spoiler: Hive Pack

Hive Pack
- extends the Honey buff by 50% (both on going into honey and on the effect of honey comb)
- decresed damage taken by hornets/bees by 40%

Spoiler: Volatile Gelatin

Volatile Gelatin
- now shoots every 40 ticks insted of every 50 ticks
- now splashes and hits nearby enemies when it hits an enemy and when it hits a tile it bounces (explosion over pierce)

This accessory isn't very good and if the bone helm would get some buffs it would be better than this.

Spoiler: Lunar Portal Staff

Lunar Portal Staff
- now drops from Lunatic Cultist (something like 25-50% or could even be a 100% drop)

Wait listen, let me explain. I have seen some people mention that the cultist should get the gravity globe as an expert accessory and a treasure bag and it isn't a bad idea and atleast it makes that he drops something. Plus this weapon as a ML drop isn't very great so instead if cultist dropped it would atleast help you with the enemies from pillars. Stat wise this weapon is perfect for this tier. Perhaps some damage balancing would needed to be done.

 

[mathbrush]

That doesn't fix the problem at all, you still have zero options to hurt them at their usual range through walls until after you take out the solar pillar.
The projectiles of Dark Casters, Diablolist, and Ragged Casters should NOT pierce walls. This is LITERAL CHEATING on the game's part.

Lets count all the enemies in Terraria with projectiles that piece blocks and are NOT part of an event or boss fight:

1. Dark Casters (Very common)
2. Fire Imp (Common)
3. Tim (Rare)
4. Giant Fungai Bulb (Common)
5. Desert Spirit (Uncommon)
6. Rune Wizard (Rare)
7. Diabolist (Very common)
8. Ragged Caster (Very common)

There are EIGHT enemies like this in the game, FIVE of them don't actively try to make you hate the game, and the ONLY THREE that do are ALL found in the dungeon and are VERY COMMON.

This needs to be changed, their projectiles should not pierce blocks, there is no argument you can make in favor of keeping something this bad the same.

You can summon sentries and minions to attack them. Explosive traps work great. I do think the casters are pretty tough though!

 

[apple8404]

Remove all block piercing enemy projectiles from the Dungeon.

yes please
while i do think that some of them aren't really that bad, they still add an obscene amount of pressure to an environment already under a hydraulic press.

if they could only attack while they have a line of sight, i think it'd improve the dungeon-diving experience by a lot. then, any time they can hurt you, you can hurt them just as easily.

you have to spend a lot of time in the dungeon to get the items you want from it, especially if you're trying to get all the mage equipment that was thrown down there. i don't think reducing the extent of the suffering a player has to endure just a little bit would hurt the game at all.

 

[Dr. Flavin]

Ah yes, the casters.

Dark Casters, not too bad on their own.
On their own, with the veritable flood of Angry Bones they become rather bothersome to say the least, they're still manageable though, at least on lower difficulties.

The same cannot be said for post-Plantera casters.
While Dark Casters can throw projectiles through walls, they still have a about a half second before they attack, the projectiles can be destroyed, and if you do corner them they are dead bones.
Post-Plantera casters decide that isn't their style apparently,
Necromancers are easily the worst offender in this regard, even though their projectile doesn't pierce, it's instant and it's bouncy, you have like 17 frames to react to them popping up out of nowhere and tagging you with their slowing beams, probably even less! They can also just decide they don't feel like dying today and teleport away, granted this doesn't work all the time, they usually just end up still in range and getting murked anyway but when it does work it's annoying!
Dishonorable mention also goes to Giant Cursed Skull who can hide inside walls and leave you perma-cursed if you don't dodge it's projectile.
Honestly I turn autopause on when I go Dungeon diving, just so I can have a second to breathe when I loot the chests or grind for gear.

What would I do to change it?
Well nerfing pre-hardmode spawn rates would help quite a bit, it's not like Angry bones or Dark Casters drop anything that you won't get like three copies of after one looting trip,
Dungeon Slimes are common enough for Gold Keys to not be an issue, and Cursed Skulls? ...They are the best way to farm the Nazar, which... Is kinda sad.

Nearby Cracked Dungeon Bricks having a much greater chance to break when mined or stepped on would be nice to cut down on those times where you have to flip back and forth to defend yourself constantly from waves of enemies just so you can get into the next room,
it would also make hidden spike pits slightly less terrible at actually catching someone off guard.

And as for the other casters, give them the same initial down time before attacking like, literally every other Caster AI enemy.
They can keep the annoying teleport, and even the phasing projectiles. I can take just one small victory.

As for big curse boy, make the projectile not phase through walls, I don't care if that makes them not threatening or whatever, having an enemy with a projectile curse that can just hide in a wall is not fun. It very much is not.

Despite all this, I still like the Dungeon, I'd just like it more if it didn't have all these annoying things in it.

 

[Flubman]

On the off chance that you weren't aware, Star Wrath has some iframe issues: Star Wrath's Global Iframes

 

[Shyguymask]

Use the Blade Staff against the post-Plantera mages for hilarious results.

You have ZERO options to deal with any of this until hardmode, it baffles me to think anyone thought this was a good idea.

Good thing that before post-Plantera there is only a single caster that doesn't teleport when hit, has a delay before firing and has slow predictable projectile that is destroyable anyway. Dark Casters are absolutely nothing compared to the post-Plantera guys and with the way you worded this you're saying that you DO have options to deal with them when the time comes.

you still have zero options to hurt them at their usual range through walls until after you take out the solar pillar.

Rainbow Rod and to a lesser extent Yoyos.

 

[coffeetab]

Here's my suggestions :

• Show the number of boss and players health bar, even also for use time of weapons. Numbers are so important for accessories set up, prepare, and fight.
• While melee class doesn't have enough choice for weapons in early hardmode, the Night's Edge and Excalibur are kinda weakness. In the other hand, Ture Nights Edge and Ture Excaliber are too much similar. Maybe they don't need to be crafted so early and upgrade at the same time. In my opinion, the Night's Edge would be available in early hardmode, crafting with Soul of Night/ Light, and even with hm ore swords, add in the former list. It will take the place of Ture Nights Edge, fires no piercing projectile in a high rate and lower damage. Players can use it to fight the Mech Bosses with Shadowflame Knife. And we can get the Excalibur at pre-Plantera crafting with hallow bar and soul of Mech Bosses or chloropye. It should be more powerful for fighting plantera and solar eclipse with piercing projectile. After obtained the broken sword, the Terra Blade is finally craftable.
• Maybe the Mana Flower should combine with the Celestial Emblem, and make the Celestial Magnet easier to get .
• There would be an accessory for guns like Magic Quiver. Melee and magic class can get their own accessory just after Mech Bosses, but ranger has to wait until defeating Golem.

Really hope you can see these, I wish it would make the playthrough more interesting and balance.

 

[MasterworkStone]

Good thing that before post-Plantera there is only a single caster that doesn't teleport when hit, has a delay before firing and has slow predictable projectile that is destroyable anyway.

You're forgetting that there are other enemies in the room with you, if not also multiple casters. One caster alone is nothing to worry about.

Dark Casters are absolutely nothing compared to the post-Plantera guys and with the way you worded this you're saying that you DO have options to deal with them when the time comes.

As mathbrush reminded me, you can use minions and sentries to subvert walls, so if you're using a summoner build you have an okayish way to deal with them.
But again that's exclusive to one damage type, in hardmode you get the Death Sickle for melee builds, neither magic nor ranged have any options.

Rainbow Rod and to a lesser extent Yoyos.

Neither of those go through walls, only around them if you're fast enough to hit the casters and if there's an opening for you to go through.

 

[Dr. Flavin]

There's options.
Melee's got Pali's Hammer, a bit low on range but still okay. Death Sickle as stated before, little underpowered at this stage of the game but it works. The Chlorophyte Saber and Partisan
are options for wall phasing projectiles as well, bad options but options none the less.

Magic's got it pretty good, nettle burst is great, Magnet Sphere is... Not great, Resonance Scepter is fantastic, heck even Blood Thorn, Nimbus Rod or Clinger Staff can work if you're desperate.

Ranged has just Daedalus really, which is starting to show it's age a bit at this point in the game, not to mention how it doesn't play nice indoors.

Summoner Blade Staff kinda nutty tbh, it basically stun locks everything that gets anywhere near you, Sanguine also good.

As you can see there are a few good options for hitting things through walls. However.
Even a weapon that phases through walls won't save you from Necromancer pot shots, human reaction time and all.
I can't possibly count the number of times I've been got by a Necromancer because my projectiles or whatever just straight up can't hit them in time to interrupt the attack.
And then there's Giant Cursed Skulls, which like hanging out inside walls, not being hittable with most weapons, taking shots at you with 100% curse chance.
I No like that.

 

[Shyguymask]

You're forgetting that there are other enemies in the room with you, if not also multiple casters. One caster alone is nothing to worry about.

Even if there was seven of them shooting at me at once I hardly have anything to worry about. They are slow, predictable and I can just destroy/block their projectiles with my weapons.

Neither of those go through walls, only around them if you're fast enough to hit the casters and if there's an opening for you to go through.

Then don't farm in a area where rooms have no openings connecting them.

 

[MasterworkStone]

Even if there was seven of them shooting at me at once I hardly have anything to worry about. They are slow, predictable and I can just destroy/block their projectiles with my weapons.

It all sounds correct on paper, but in practice this is all wrong.

Then don't farm in a area where rooms have no openings connecting them.

Who said anything about farming?

 

[Shyguymask]

It all sounds correct on paper, but in practice this is all wrong.

Uh, no? I do this regularly. It's neither hard on paper or in practice. A Muramasa alone can pretty much block all dark caster projectiles thrown at you.

Who said anything about farming?

Besides unlocking biome chests, what else is there to do in the Post-Plantera dungeon besides farming for items?

 

[Xurkitree1]

People are complaining about Necromancer s? They can't shoot through all angles you know, sometimes the reflects simply can't line up due to your hitbox being unilluminable. I am frankly relieved when the farming space spawns Necros.

On the othe hand god curse the diabolist, stupid things have both wall piercing and lingering AoE, cutting off areas to move in an already tight space.

 

[Dr. Flavin]

Dark Caster's aren't the problem really,
It's the swarm of Angry Bones, you often can see yourself flooded with up to seven of them at a time.
On Classic? This is fine, with HP Maxing out at 120 they aren't too bad.
Then Expert rolls around, and things start getting nasty.
Doubling the numbers and the HP average goes from 85 to 171, these former trash mobs can now quickly overwhelm the player, even with the gold chest equipment the Dungeon provides.
At Master Mode, with 256 HP on average it's not even worth taking out candles anymore, your best bet is to just run from room to room and block off all passageways you came from.
It's easier just to get a Hellstone Pick and mine into the gold chest rooms from outside at this point, or fish.
On Expert Mode they have better HP and defense on average than a Classic Mode Demon, the strongest variant has 240 HP and 14 defense on Expert Mode. Quite a bit for a pre-hardmode enemy.

Eh, whatever.

 

[AngryNimbus]

I think we can all agree that True melee swords in Hardmode need a buff.

Leinfors has repeatedly said that if one of these swords gets a buff, then ALL others would fall behind, so all the swords would have to be buffed at once. This means that significant buffs to these swords are unlikely, as the number crunching alone would take a solid amount of time.

That said... i took the time to compile almost all Hardmode broadswords and propose stat buffs to all of them. With these buffs all these swords should at least become usable.

Note that some of these are a little more drastic than others I may have proposed doubled DPS for a pair of them

These are amazing suggestions, all of these swords are underpowered and need buffs or partial reworks.
Couple of additions:
I think Psycho Knife should have slightly less melee speed penalties, in facetanking scenarios (only) it should be not much less powerful than Terra Blade.
Phasesabers may also recieve recipe cost reduction (it is 50 crystals now, for a disappointing broadsword)

Seedler's sword (not projectile) can be buffed too
It now has only 1/4 of Terra Blade's DPS. Seedler absolutely should not compete with Terra Blade, but having only 25% of power compared to the weapon obtained (almost) at the same stage is a bit low.
I think 60-70% would be cool.

Suggestions:
Base damage: 50 ->80, UT 23 -> 19
Projectiles are already powerful enough and do not need any buffs.
Interesting fact: true swords are a lot stronger than Seedler in terms of sword stats, and are obtained earlier.

Spoiler: Old

The Horseman's Blade.
If I understood correctly, only base damage increase was suggested.
This won't work as Stake launcher's buff (almost 2x dps increase). The HB will be still just a (powerful, considering 140 base dmg) true melee sword.
Which will still limit its use scenarios to farms or tank-able enemies. In my opinion, we need to add 1-3 Pumpkins per swing without direct hits from the blade.
Possible positive effects:
a)The HB will become a somewhat decent alternative to the Flying Dragon
b) Pumpkins are naturally homing (despite being slow), which will make this sword really useful on Pillar Enemies

 

[MasterworkStone]

I'd like to take back my earlier posts, Dark Casters not as bad as previously stated, but they can be extremely annoying.
They're so annoying that they inspire temporary blinding rage that might make you go onto the forums to complain about them instead of thinking about how to deal with them properly.

That said, Diabolist fireballs should be able to be broken, maybe have them leave their lingering AoE appear where they were broken.

 

[Patrik2569]

Real QoL would be a way to spawn the plantera and not rely on RNG with the bulb. Waiting for plantera is annoying for any player.

To solve this, I listed a few options/ideas:

1) Make a summon
-this could be done in a way that would make sense and wouldn't feel odd. We are talking about plantera, a huge plant, so what I suggest is to make a craftable or easily obtainable item that would be some kind of plantera seed which you can plant on jungle grass (something like a pumpkin seed). In some time it could grow into a functional plantera bulb which summons it after breaking.
- the crafting components could include drops from all mechs to make sure you can't skip them and break the sequence of bosses.

2) Make bulbs more common
- might seem like a lazy solution, but it gets the job done. Just tweak the numbers to make bulbs spawn 5-10 times faster
- many players would appreciate that they wouldn't have to wait around for hours to get a bulb close to their arena
- also makes refighting plantera for your favorite drop a lot faster and easier


3) Make at least one guaranteed bulb after mechs
- it would make sense to be able to find a bulb right after the message "jungle grows restless" which appears after defeating all mechanical bosses. If a new player sees a message like that, they might want to check how is jungle changed. Usually now even after you are done mining chlorophyte, you still need to wait until the bulb spawns and that's just not fun.
-even though this spawn would be randomly located, this change wouldn't hurt anybody, and it would be a great quality of life improvement!

 

[Dr. Flavin]

Y'know speaking of Plantera, Could it be so that Plantera won't despawn until there's no players left in the Jungle Biome? Or as long as Plantera itself is in the Jungle Biome?
Whichever one works better.
It's pretty frequent that I have to travel a good distance to get to my arena, as such I have to lead Plantera to said arena for a while, making sure not to go too fast or too far offscreen.
The amount of times I have gone too fast and had Plantera despawn on me is... Embarrassing.
Maybe add a catchup mechanic too when Plantera is off screen? Plantera is surprisingly easy to outpace in the small pathways of the Jungle, and less waiting is always nice.