Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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A quick solution for Defender Medals is that one can access any available tier of invasion.

Say you use 1 Crystal to initiate Tier 1, 3 for Tier 2 and 5 for Tier 3. This would not only help alleviate the problem of taking on a harder tier without proper sentries due to accidentally skipping the period its available, but also allows players to take on the previous tiers if grinding in the current one is too hard without having to create a new world.

Dont really like the solution of @DeDZahar because it gives free, unearned Medals to get the higher tier weapons for free (in comparison to another player that DID grind for the medals), effectively rewarding the player for skipping the content altogether.
 
A quick solution for Defender Medals is that one can access any available tier of invasion.

Say you use 1 Crystal to initiate Tier 1, 3 for Tier 2 and 5 for Tier 3. This would not only help alleviate the problem of taking on a harder tier without proper sentries due to accidentally skipping the period its available, but also allows players to take on the previous tiers if grinding in the current one is too hard without having to create a new world.

Dont really like the solution of @DeDZahar because it gives free, unearned Medals to get the higher tier weapons for free (in comparison to another player that DID grind for the medals), effectively rewarding the player for skipping the content altogether.
While I like this idea, a problem I see with it is the price ramping of the crystals. While 3 gold (1 gold x 3 crystals) for tier 2 ooa doesn't sound so bad, 20 gold (4 gold x 5 crystals) for the tier 3 version sounds quite excessive, especially if you fail the event alot.

And I can speak from experience, having failed the tier 3 version alone almost 20 times in my master mode playthrough.
 
A quick solution for Defender Medals is that one can access any available tier of invasion.

Say you use 1 Crystal to initiate Tier 1, 3 for Tier 2 and 5 for Tier 3. This would not only help alleviate the problem of taking on a harder tier without proper sentries due to accidentally skipping the period its available, but also allows players to take on the previous tiers if grinding in the current one is too hard without having to create a new world.

Dont really like the solution of @DeDZahar because it gives free, unearned Medals to get the higher tier weapons for free (in comparison to another player that DID grind for the medals), effectively rewarding the player for skipping the content altogether.
No, no no. No free medals. As I wrote it:
The player will receive currency only if he did no invasion event before or lost his money and there is no presence of it in storages. (for avoiding accident where you lost money/free medals farming the game will check player's personal storages and inventory for it ( not chests cause checking every chest can kill the game ) and if there will be no medals tavernkeeper will give you them again. I'M REPEAT: only if he was not spoken before or the player did no invasion/lost his money and there is no currency in player's inventory/personal storage. In exchange of abillity to keep em' in usual chests but it sounds not too dramatic
 
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Most players found Golem not that much harder than King Slime (not counting bad rng when lizard dungeon or altar's room are small) so what if You could make his fists be immune to knockback (he is The Golem, post Plantera boss by the way) and maybe somewhat buff his stats?! Or add\speed some attack for second phase (personally I see that tricky flame trap as that attack (it's range is nice enough for it's place (so people will build block shield against him again)))
The Golem's fists already are immune to knockback... But only after the head reaches half HP. Maybe that could be made into a permanent change, meaning the fists never take knockback? I feel like that would make the first phase a bit harder, but not by much since you could still dodge the hands fairly easily.
Stat buffs might help though, since Golem's current stats are actually almost identical to Plantera. Here is what I think could work for stat buffs in Classic Mode, with explanations for why I chose the numbers I did:
Max HP: 39,000 > 45,000
This increased health would put Golem just below Fishron (50k) and EoL (70k) in terms of health, which should be pretty fair balancing-wise.
Fist Contact Damage: 50 > 80
Golem's fists, as stated above, are not immune to knockback until the head reaches half HP. Why not make it so that the fists are extremely deadly to make up for them being pretty easy to counteract? After all, getting hit by a giant stone fist at high speeds has got to hurt. Besides, Fishron does 100 damage on contact, and EoL does 80 (120 when dashing), so Golem's Fists dealing around that much should be fair.
Head Contact Damage: 64 (Unchanged)
The head's damage is primarily meant to come from the projectiles it shoots, rather than direct contact. As such, I didn't think this needed to change much since it keeps the contact damage marginally weaker than its projectiles, without making it too weak that one could just run into the head without risking any damage.
Eye Beam Damage: 56 > 66
Fishron and EoL's projectiles all deal around 80-100 damage, and I wanted to keep Golem a little weaker than them. This should buff the eye beams to be more of a threat without making them too devastating.
Fireball Damage: 36-58 (scales with head HP) > 70 (flat)
I don't really understand why the fireballs' damage needs to scale with Golem's HP. Personally, I think they should just have a flat amount of damage to keep them consistent with Golem's other attacks and to make him a bit more of a challenge.
As for Expert and Master Mode (no explanations since all I did was apply the same scale Golem uses currently to my buffed version,):
Max HP: 58,500 > 74,700
Fist Contact Damage: 94 > 122
Head Contact Damage: 102 (Unchanged)
Eye Beam Damage: 112 > 132
Fireball Damage: 72-116 (scaling) > 140 (flat)
Max HP: 74,586 > 132,966
Fist Contact Damage: 141 > 203
Head Contact Damage: 153 (Unchanged)
Eye Beam Damage: 168 > 198
Fireball Damage: 108-174 (scaling) > 210 (flat)
Obviously, I don't fully expect Golem to get a stat buff in the next balancing update, or at all really. But I think that making his stats stick closer to Duke Fishron and Empress of Light rather than Plantera would be a step in the right direction into making him a more formidable foe at the tier he's intended to be in. This shouldn't make Golem too strong, since it has no effect on his AI and his stats are still lower than Fishron and EoL (except max HP in Master Mode, presumably because EoL has less health scaling than Golem), but if these stats are too strong feel free to tone them down!
 
For OOA, why not just make each tier only unlock if the previous tier has been completed, on top of the current requirements? So to unlock tier 2 you have to have beaten a mech boss AND completed tier 1, and to unlock tier 3 you have to have beaten Golem AND completed tier 2. This guarantees you'll have always earned enough medals to buy a decent turret by the time you get to each tier.
 
For OOA, why not just make each tier only unlock if the previous tier has been completed, on top of the current requirements? So to unlock tier 2 you have to have beaten a mech boss AND completed tier 1, and to unlock tier 3 you have to have beaten Golem AND completed tier 2. This guarantees you'll have always earned enough medals to buy a decent turret by the time you get to each tier.
One issue is that just a single time through tier 2 isn't enough to buy a good sentry for tier 3.

If the goal is to make sure the player has an appropriate sentry, why not just check if they are carrying the sentry of the appropriate level in their inventory? No sentry or level 1 sentry = Tier 1, level 2 sentry + mech boss defeated = tier 2, level 3 sentry + golem defeated = tier 3.

But I think all of this might fall into 'changing mechanics' territory, which we're not supposed to cross over to...
 
One issue is that just a single time through tier 2 isn't enough to buy a good sentry for tier 3.

If the goal is to make sure the player has an appropriate sentry, why not just check if they are carrying the sentry of the appropriate level in their inventory? No sentry or level 1 sentry = Tier 1, level 2 sentry + mech boss defeated = tier 2, level 3 sentry + golem defeated = tier 3.

But I think all of this might fall into 'changing mechanics' territory, which we're not supposed to cross over to...
You get 25 medals total for completing tier 2, which is enough to buy a tier 2 sentry. The tier 2 sentries are decent enough to get you far enough through tier 3 to get more medals. You're not really supposed to have a tier 3 sentry your first time doing tier 3.
 
What needs to be tested is how far you can get through tier 3 with a tier 1 sentry. There are many players who simply ignore OOA for most of the game, not realizing that the event's difficulty will be upgraded without their knowledge. Which means that this is a common position people will find themselves in, and therefore worth investigating.

Currently, if the average player cannot clear wave 5 of t3 with a t1 sentry and typical post-golem gear, it means you would have to clear wave 1-4 a total of seven times to get a T2 sentry, and that's just way too much.

For OOA, why not just make each tier only unlock if the previous tier has been completed, on top of the current requirements? So to unlock tier 2 you have to have beaten a mech boss AND completed tier 1, and to unlock tier 3 you have to have beaten Golem AND completed tier 2. This guarantees you'll have always earned enough medals to buy a decent turret by the time you get to each tier.
This can work as long as partial completion of the current tier usually awards more medals than full completion of the previous tier. A post-golem player can only complete t2 once before it upgrades to t3, so there should be no incentive for them to go back to t2.
 
No, no no. No free medals. As I wrote it:
The player will receive currency only if he did no invasion event before or lost his money and there is no presence of it in storages. (for avoiding accident where you lost money/free medals farming the game will check player's personal storages and inventory for it ( not chests cause checking every chest can kill the game ) and if there will be no medals tavernkeeper will give you them again. I'M REPEAT: only if he was not spoken before or the player did no invasion/lost his money and there is no currency in player's inventory/personal storage. In exchange of abillity to keep em' in usual chests but it sounds not too dramatic

Thats why i say free medal. You PURPOSEDLY avoid doing tier 1 and 2 and not speak to the tavernkeep and get a free increases medals for a tier 2 or 3 sentry in exchange without doing a single wave. Meanwhile another will have to grind for the weapon upgrade (effectively punishing you for having participated before by getting less medals).
 
Are you suggesting that the terraprisma be eols expert drop?
Honestly sounds like a good idea, the Terraprisma is a joke at this point because who in their right mind would fight Enraged EoL for a summon that is at best a side-grade?
The Soaring Insignia is useful to all classes and incredibly powerful to some people, it would be a more worthwhile drop to get instead of a one-class weapon.
 
You get 25 medals total for completing tier 2, which is enough to buy a tier 2 sentry. The tier 2 sentries are decent enough to get you far enough through tier 3 to get more medals. You're not really supposed to have a tier 3 sentry your first time doing tier 3.
I didn't know that was what was intended; I always farm tier 1 for enough medals for a tier 2 sentry, and then beat tier 2 seven times to get the Tavernkeep armor and to save up for tier 3. I had honestly thought that was intended behavior!
 
I didn't know that was what was intended; I always farm tier 1 for enough medals for a tier 2 sentry, and then beat tier 2 seven times to get the Tavernkeep armor and to save up for tier 3. I had honestly thought that was intended behavior!

When you think about it from someone who doesnt know of the higher tiers, it makes sense. How would they know how much to save up for the next tier’s items?

A newbie would farm enough to but 1-2 sentry and 1 armor set, unless they collect all items at tier 2 at most. Tier 1 he may farm to test out all 4 weapons, but likely not much after that.
 
Honestly sounds like a good idea, the Terraprisma is a joke at this point because who in their right mind would fight Enraged EoL for a summon that is at best a side-grade?
The Soaring Insignia is useful to all classes and incredibly powerful to some people, it would be a more worthwhile drop to get instead of a one-class weapon.
Personally, I'm not sure about that. Terraprisma is definitely good, sure, but I don't think it's necessarily worthy of being an Expert item. Besides, no other expert item in the game currently is a weapon, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to me that EoL would break that trend. I think if we have to modify her drops, here would be my propositions:
1) Make Terraprisma a normal weapon drop. This means EoL would have five weapons, which would be mutually exclusive. This keeps EoL consistent with all other bosses and with her existing drops
2) Move Soaring Insignia to daytime EoL's unique drop. As MasterworkStone mentioned, it's very powerful and useful to all classes, so it's a worthy reward for a difficult challenge!
3) Make Empress' Wings EoL's Expert drop. Because EoL's former expert drop is now her daytime drop, she needs a new expert drop to make up for it. While Empress' Wings probably aren't the best option for an expert drop, they're the only fitting option since we can't have a new item made, and Empress' Wings aren't specific to an individual class like Terraprisma is. If it's really necessary, the wings could get a slight buff, but I don't think that's needed
 
Probably a stupid idea: Nerfing Terraprisma and making the Insignia daytime Empress' drop?
As a summoner, we already have Desert Tiger, Raven, Xeno Staff, and maybe Tempest Staff as usable post-plantera minions, and there are also unreliable ones like Pygmy and Deadly Sphere. On the other hand, only 3 options exist for endgame summon. The Dragon's AI is kinda bad, the Cell's damage is lower, and Terraprisma serves as a quite good alternative.
Changing the tier of Terraprisma is just bad. You could change the daytime Empress to additionally drop Soaring Insignia, or just remain as it is.
 
Probably a stupid idea: Nerfing Terraprisma and making the Insignia daytime Empress' drop?

Honestly sounds like a good idea, the Terraprisma is a joke at this point because who in their right mind would fight Enraged EoL for a summon that is at best a side-grade?
The Soaring Insignia is useful to all classes and incredibly powerful to some people, it would be a more worthwhile drop to get instead of a one-class weapon.

Personally, I'm not sure about that. Terraprisma is definitely good, sure, but I don't think it's necessarily worthy of being an Expert item. Besides, no other expert item in the game currently is a weapon, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to me that EoL would break that trend. I think if we have to modify her drops, here would be my propositions:
1) Make Terraprisma a normal weapon drop. This means EoL would have five weapons, which would be mutually exclusive. This keeps EoL consistent with all other bosses and with her existing drops
2) Move Soaring Insignia to daytime EoL's unique drop. As MasterworkStone mentioned, it's very powerful and useful to all classes, so it's a worthy reward for a difficult challenge!
3) Make Empress' Wings EoL's Expert drop. Because EoL's former expert drop is now her daytime drop, she needs a new expert drop to make up for it. While Empress' Wings probably aren't the best option for an expert drop, they're the only fitting option since we can't have a new item made, and Empress' Wings aren't specific to an individual class like Terraprisma is. If it's really necessary, the wings could get a slight buff, but I don't think that's needed
This is the worst idea in the story of balance.
Firstly, a nerf to the best and coolest Summoner weapon in the game.
Second, it will make Expert Drop Normal when people are complaining about it anyway, which will end up breaking the Solar Insignia.
Third, making regular wings an expert drop when soon there are better wings and Moon Lord drops the best wings in the game as an expert drop.

A hopeless idea and may it never end up in the game.
 
Personally, I'm not sure about that. Terraprisma is definitely good, sure, but I don't think it's necessarily worthy of being an Expert item. Besides, no other expert item in the game currently is a weapon, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to me that EoL would break that trend. I think if we have to modify her drops, here would be my propositions:
1) Make Terraprisma a normal weapon drop. This means EoL would have five weapons, which would be mutually exclusive. This keeps EoL consistent with all other bosses and with her existing drops
2) Move Soaring Insignia to daytime EoL's unique drop. As MasterworkStone mentioned, it's very powerful and useful to all classes, so it's a worthy reward for a difficult challenge!
3) Make Empress' Wings EoL's Expert drop. Because EoL's former expert drop is now her daytime drop, she needs a new expert drop to make up for it. While Empress' Wings probably aren't the best option for an expert drop, they're the only fitting option since we can't have a new item made, and Empress' Wings aren't specific to an individual class like Terraprisma is. If it's really necessary, the wings could get a slight buff, but I don't think that's needed
Sounds better.

This is the worst idea in the story of balance.
Firstly, a nerf to the best and coolest Summoner weapon in the game.
"The coolest summoner weapon in the game" is a joke weapon because of how it's implemented, it's up there with the Star Cannon and Super Star Shooter, no one uses them because their ammo is completely impractical, and no one uses the Terraprisim unless they're going for some kind of challenge run because the effort required to obtain it is obscene.
Second, it will make Expert Drop Normal when people are complaining about it anyway, which will end up breaking the Solar Insignia.
People complain about it because it's easy to obtain, if you give it the obscene challenge of killing EoL during the day, then people would complain less because it'll become a rarity to see.
Third, making regular wings an expert drop when soon there are better wings and Moon Lord drops the best wings in the game as an expert drop.
The only reason it's suggested is because Leinfors can't do much on is own outside of small coding, such as what is suggested. There is no better item to replace her expert drop with that wouldn't require adding an entirely new item to the game.
 
This is the worst idea in the story of balance.
Firstly, a nerf to the best and coolest Summoner weapon in the game.
Second, it will make Expert Drop Normal when people are complaining about it anyway, which will end up breaking the Solar Insignia.
Third, making regular wings an expert drop when soon there are better wings and Moon Lord drops the best wings in the game as an expert drop.

A hopeless idea and may it never end up in the game.
Basically what MasterworkStone said. Also, I never suggested to nerf Terraprisma (and honestly I missed that in the initial suggestion- I personally think Terraprisma does not need a nerf, and making it a regular drop is a straight buff because it makes it obtainable normally).
"The coolest summoner weapon in the game" is a joke weapon because of how it's implemented, it's up there with the Star Cannon and Super Star Shooter, no one uses them because their ammo is completely impractical, and no one uses the Terraprisim unless they're going for some kind of challenge run because the effort required to obtain it is obscene.
This, but also the fact that EoL's current daytime drop is useless to anyone who is not using summoner weapons. Making Soaring Insignia her daytime drop not only makes Insignia an actual challenge to obtain, but it would be worth that challenge. I don't care how powerful you make Terraprisma, it is not a worthwhile reward for defeating daytime Empress.
People complain about it because it's easy to obtain, if you give it the obscene challenge of killing EoL during the day, then people would complain less because it'll become a rarity to see.
Yeah! And also see what I stated above; moving Soaring Insignia to a daytime drop gives all classes a reason to fight daytime EoL. It also gives an indirect nerf to Soaring Insignia without reducing its usefulness. Honestly, it's probably the best way to nerf the accessory imo.
The only reason it's suggested is because Leinfors can't do much on is own outside of small coding, such as what is suggested. There is no better item to replace her expert drop with that wouldn't require adding an entirely new item to the game.
Exactly. If it was up to me, I would add a brand new Expert item. But we can't do that, and since the only other alternatives are weapons (which would break consistency with every other expert drop and be useless to any player who isn't using that particular class) or vanity items (which I think you can see why those are a terrible choice for the expert drop), there isn't anything better to fit the role of an expert drop than Empress' Wings. If the wings really aren't good enough to be an Expert drop, then just buff them slightly or something. But I don't think that's necessary here.
 
Beating the Empress during the day is not as difficult as you're making it out to be. It's a suitable challenge for an endgame player that can be completed slightly earlier by especially skilled players. If anything I'd make it harder tbh.

Also the Terraprisma is a useful reward for any player because any player can use summon weapons. Even if you don't invest in summoning stats it will still be a huge boost.
 
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