Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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People complain about it because it's easy to obtain, if you give it the obscene challenge of killing EoL during the day, then people would complain less because it'll become a rarity to see.
Making Soaring Insignia her daytime drop not only makes Insignia an actual challenge to obtain, but it would be worth that challenge. I don't care how powerful you make Terraprisma, it is not a worthwhile reward for defeating daytime Empress.

The way I see it is that (difficulty-wise), eol is the penultimate boss of the game, second only to moon lord. It only makes sense that soaring insignia is stupid powerful.

Beating the Empress during the day is not as difficult as you're making it out to be. It's a suitable challenge for an endgame player that can be completed slightly earlier by especially skilled players. If anything I'd make it harder tbh.

Oddly enough, I agree here, and I even believe that daytime eol would be a good contender for a post ml boss. And it's one of the few fights that are actually easier on expert and (maybe) master then on normal, as you lose access to expert drops such as brain of confusion, the fishron mount, soaring insignia itself, and celestial starboard on normal mode. For daytime eol to be a greater challenge on these difficulties, you have to purposely not use the advantages that playing on expert gives you.
 
Oddly enough, I agree here, and I even believe that daytime eol would be a good contender for a post ml boss. And it's one of the few fights that are actually easier on expert and (maybe) master then on normal, as you lose access to expert drops such as brain of confusion, the fishron mount, soaring insignia itself, and celestial starboard on normal mode. For daytime eol to be a greater challenge on these difficulties, you have to purposely not use the advantages that playing on expert gives you.
Right, but daytime EoL is (at least in my opinion) not worth doing if the reward you get is intended for other players, though I might just be biased because I usually like to stick to one class. Although, Soaring Insignia is easily one of the strongest accessories in the game, and I think it's a more worthwhile reward for daytime Empress than Terraprisma is, so I think there's at least some merit to her dropping that during the daytime instead of as an Expert item
 
Right, but daytime EoL is (at least in my opinion) not worth doing if the reward you get is intended for other players, though I might just be biased because I usually like to stick to one class. Although, Soaring Insignia is easily one of the strongest accessories in the game, and I think it's a more worthwhile reward for daytime Empress than Terraprisma is, so I think there's at least some merit to her dropping that during the daytime instead of as an Expert item
The main reason I disagree with moving soaring insignia to daytime Empress is because of my belief that she is supposed to be a "superboss" in a way, and most superboss drops are supposed to be little more then a trophy, considering they are often more powerful then the final boss.

Gating a very useful (I mean, I would say it is the absolute strongest accessory in the game) behind what I consider the final challenge after moon lord doesn't sit right with me.

Although, taking what cellar said up above as well, it seems like Daytime eol can be stupid easy, or stupid hard, and there is no inbetween, apparently.
 
The main reason I disagree with moving soaring insignia to daytime Empress is because of my belief that she is supposed to be a "superboss" in a way, and most superboss drops are supposed to be little more then a trophy, considering they are often more powerful then the final boss.

Gating a very useful (I mean, I would say it is the absolute strongest accessory in the game) behind what I consider the final challenge after moon lord doesn't sit right with me.

Although, taking what cellar said up above as well, it seems like Daytime eol can be stupid easy, or stupid hard, and there is no inbetween, apparently.
Personally, I’d say that’s even more of a reason to make Insignia her daytime drop. If she’s “the final challenge”, why shouldn’t she drop arguably the best item in the game as a reward? Players should be rewarded for going out of their way to do a difficult challenge, and Terraprisma just doesn’t feel like an “ultimate reward” to me. Soaring Insignia, however, does.
Something as powerful as Insignia should not simply be handed to players. They should have to work for it, at least in my opinion.
 
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Personally, I’d say that’s even more of a reason to make Insignia her daytime drop. If she’s “the final challenge”, why shouldn’t she drop arguably the best item in the game as a reward? Players should be rewarded for going out of their way to do a difficult challenge, and Terraprisma just doesn’t feel like an “ultimate reward” to me. Soaring Insignia, however, does.
Except that after the final challenge, what would you actually use it on? You've already conquered all others.

Take final fantasy for example, in 7, the original release only had ultimate weapon (diamond weapon is considered a superboss, but 1) you're forced to fight it, and 2) it is weaker then the final boss of 7) and the only thing he dropped was a characters aptly named "ultimate weapon". in the international release, they added 2 far more powerful bosses, emerald and Ruby weapon, which gave (comparative to ultimate weapon) lesser rewards (ruby weapons reward pretty much was only useful for acquiring a particular item that emerald, by proxy, already gave you, and Ruby is widely considered far harder then emerald)

Same thing happened in 12, after defeating the 2 ultimate superbosses, yiazmat and omega mark 13 (I might have that last name wrong), and completing a certain sidequest, you get another ultimate weapon. In the zodiac age remaster, trial mode was added, which served as a sort of boss rush with you fighting nearly every enemy that is in the game over 100 rounds, with both yiazmat and omega mark 13 appearing near the end.

(There are probably even more examples that I don't know about)

If soaring insignia gets added to Daytime eol, there would have to be a finaler challenge that makes it almost necessary to have, and it's been stated time and time again that moon Lord is the end.

Tprisma sits in a strange position where it needs a buff, but can't get one because of where it sits in progression.
 
Except that after the final challenge, what would you actually use it on? You've already conquered all others.
Who ever said there needed to be a use for the daytime Empress reward? Think of it like Moon Lord’s drops in 1.3; there was no daytime EoL to fight, so were ML’s drops useless in 1.3? Or what about 1.2 Golem/Fishron? Prior to Moon Lord’s existence, those two were the final bosses. There was nothing to use their loot to fight, so by your logic those bosses’ items are useless.
Sometimes it’s just fun to gain access to a cool, powerful item just because you can.
Besides, it’s not like the current Soaring Insignia gets much more use than it was if it was post-daytime Empress. Regular EoL is usually fought around post-Plantera/Golem tier, so you could use it against (at the earliest) Golem, Fishron, Moon Lord, and daytime Empress. That still isn’t that many bosses. And it’s not that good for Golem because of the limited space you fight him in, which effectively just leaves Fishron, ML, and daytime EoL.
Also, consider the fact that daytime EoL can be fought as early as normal EoL. A skilled player (which I’ll admit I am not) can probably kill daytime EoL post-Plant, just like people can kill Fishron pre-mechs. And keep in mind that Soaring Insignia is theoretically obtainable in classic mode now, even if you’ll have less options for daytime EoL that way.
 
Who ever said there needed to be a use for the daytime Empress reward?

That's kind of the point, most rewards for defeating a superboss don't, and the ones that do usually have an extra challenge added after that. Tprisma is a "bragging right" item that actually has a use, even though it's widely not considered an ultimate weapon.

Think of it like Moon Lord’s drops in 1.3; there was no daytime EoL to fight, so were ML’s drops useless in 1.3? Or what about 1.2 Golem/Fishron? Prior to Moon Lord’s existence, those two were the final bosses. There was nothing to use their loot to fight, so by your logic those bosses’ items are useless.

Okay, that was stupid, I'll give you that. I guess I'm a bit too used to the final boss wrapping up a story.

Besides, it’s not like the current Soaring Insignia gets much more use than it was if it was post-daytime Empress. Regular EoL is usually fought around post-Plantera/Golem tier, so you could use it against (at the earliest) Golem, Fishron, Moon Lord, and daytime Empress. That still isn’t that many bosses.

While I would probably never think of this outside of my master mode playthrough, but there are alot more things to use soaring insignia against if you got it at pre-golem. There's the tier 3 old one's Army (which I'm not proud to admit the fact that soaring insignia is probably the only reason I ever beat that in mm), martian madness and both the pumpkin and frost moon. I guess you could also use it against the solar eclipse, what with the new enemies introduced after plantera.

Also, consider the fact that daytime EoL can be fought as early as normal EoL. A skilled player (which I’ll admit I am not) can probably kill daytime EoL post-Plant, just like people can kill Fishron pre-mechs. And keep in mind that Soaring Insignia is theoretically obtainable in classic mode now, even if you’ll have less options for daytime EoL that way.

(Don't worry, I'm not that good either)

Another reason i think that soaring insignia should remain an expert exclusive is the fact that it "shakes things up", so to speak. Most of the expert drops have some sort of gimmick to them that makes them stand out (worm scarf, while it is undoubtedly good, is the most boring out of them), and soaring insignia does that perfectly.
 
What's with the hateboner towards the Insignia? People have been asking for endgame Infinite flight for a long time, and locking such great utility behind a massive difficulty spike is going to piss off so many people, atleast on the order of magnitude of the torch luck debacle. I use the Insignia with Empress Wings to fight Master ML without needing an Asphalt cheese arena because it just doesn't fit on screen and i can be hypermobile instead. I also fight Daytime Empress using Soaring Insignia so that arena size is irrelevant and i dont necessarily need to abuse Hallowed Armor. It's a style of fighting, something I'd have to relearn for a non infinite flight build that has to be general purpose all-class, easy to obtain and can be implemented post-Plantera in a pinch. And doing Empress for the 1st time took 200+ tries. If anyrhing it'll encourage cheesing her just to be done with it, as opposed to sticking to principles and beating her as intended.

Balance for the sake of balance is just going to anger and annoy people. Atleast Infinite Flight requires actual keyboard dexterity to get some use out of it, you can automate moonlord with a Minecart track if you wanted too. Terraria is supposed to be fun, and Infinite Flight is very much that. So is the Terraprisma, since it appropriately dunks on the game.
 
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Add a Bonus buff for Angler Armor

Also Sanguine Staff should have Blood Squids instead of bats, like Tempest Staff with Sharkrons
 
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Can we stop talking about Insignia when not only is it not really an issue worth getting heated about, but there are far more important and interesting balance changes to talk about?

I don't even think most of the people here arguing about Terraprisma even know the real reason it's not all that worth it to obtain. It's not because EoL Daytime is way too hard, it's because Dragon is better against Moon Lord thanks to higher aggro range and also being a better side minion when using weapons from other classes. Both Stardust minions on an offensive Whip build can kill Master Mode Daytime Empress in under 30 seconds, yet someone like me doing that would still only use Terraprisma against the pillars and then switch to Dragon for Moon Lord. Also a nitpick but a post said that Stardust Cell is "lower damage" even though in a Whip build its damage output in practice is on par with Dragon while having a more consistent AI against Empress & Pillar enemies. In general I wish we would stop arguing about Terraprisma and Soaring Insignia when again there's no real problem & we don't seem to know what we want at all.
 
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I think debuffs inflicted on enemies need to be rebalanced. I'll make a list for comparison. (player-only debuffs and visual ones are not listed here)

Poisoned: 2 HP/s. Source: dart, flask, Spore Sac, some weapons like Snapthorn, Hornet, Poison Staff, Toxikarp

Penetrated: 3~18 HP/s. Source: Bone Javelin, can be stacked

On Fire: 4 HP/s. Source: Hellstone tools, arrow, flask, some weapons like Imp, Firecracker, Flamelash, Phantom Phoenix

Frostburn: 8 HP/s. Source: arrow, Frost armor, Amarok, Cool Whip, Flower of Frost

Hellfire: 15 HP/s. Source: Fire Gauntlet, Magma Stone

Shadowflame: 15 HP/s. Source: Shadowflame Knife/Bow/Hex Doll dropped from Goblin Summoner

Cursed Inferno: 24 HP/s. Source: arrow, bullet, flask, dart, Cursed Flames, Clinger Staff

Oiled: 25 HP/s if inflicted with fire debuffs. Source: Explosive Trap

Acid Venom: 30 HP/s. Source: arrow, bullet, flask, Spider Staff, Queen Spider, Pygmy

Dryad's Blessing: 6~16 HP/s on expert mode. Source: Dryad

Celled: I'm not sure how this works. Source: Stardust Cell

Daybroken: 25~200 HP/s from Daybreak, can be stacked; 25 HP/s from Solar Eruption


That's the main subject I'm talking about here. These damage values could be fine on pre-Hardmode, but once Hardmode arrives, Ichor becomes better than them unless you are using a rather slow weapon. Some of them, including Poisoned, On Fire, and Frostburn, are exceptionally weak here, although they can be inflicted by some HM weapons/flasks. Also speaking of Cursed Inferno and Acid Venom, I believe many people will pick Ichor instead, due to its high potential.

Ichor: -15 defense. Source: golden shower, bullet, arrow, flask, dart, blade tongue

Betsy's Curse: -40 defense. Source: Betsy's Wrath


I'm okay about their current status. For Ichor, it's +7.5 damage per hit. Take rangers as an example, if you attack with Megashark/Tsunami/Chain Gun without a speed boost against a single target, 64/94/113 extra damage per second will be dealt. With a Rapid Chain Gun, it's 150 per second. You can use some minions for extra damage.

Confused: drives enemies away. 70% of enemies and all bosses are immune according to the wiki. Source: Brain of Confusion, a few weapons, bullet, flask

Midas: gives 10-49% more coins. I've never tried it, but I suppose it could be used to give the final blow to enemies. Sounds kinda unnecessary though. Source: flask, bullet


I'm not experienced with these two debuffs, but they don't seem to be useful for combat.

In conclusion, many DoT debuffs need to be buffed here. For Poisoned, On Fire, Frostburn, and Shadowflame, I'll suggest increasing their base damage to 15/20/25/30 in Hardmode. For Hellfire, Cursed Inferno, and Acid Venom, maybe 35/30/40?
In addition, make enemies take more damage from debuffs as you progress. For example, a multiplier of 1/1.5/2 can be applied to Normal/Expert/Master Mode for enemies, and an extra multiplier of 1/2/3 for pre-HM/HM/post-plantera, just like how expert mode enemies scale.

Edit: the above multiplier should not be applied to Celled or Daybroken as they are inflicted by a specific weapon and can already deal significant damage.
 
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I think debuffs inflicted on enemies need to be rebalanced. I'll make a list for comparison. (player-only debuffs and visual ones are not listed here)

Poisoned: 2 HP/s. Source: dart, flask, Spore Sac, some weapons like Snapthorn, Hornet, Poison Staff, Toxikarp

Penetrated: 3~18 HP/s. Source: Bone Javelin, can be stacked

On Fire: 4 HP/s. Source: Hellstone tools, arrow, flask, Fire Gauntlet, some weapons like Imp, Firecracker, Flamelash, Phantom Phoenix

Frostburn: 8 HP/s. Source: arrow, Frost armor, Amarok, Cool Whip, Flower of Frost

Shadowflame: 15 HP/s. Source: Shadowflame Knife/Bow/Hex Doll dropped from Goblin Summoner

Cursed Inferno: 24 HP/s. Source: arrow, bullet, flask, dart, Cursed Flames, Clinger Staff

Oiled: 25 HP/s if inflicted with fire debuffs. Source: Explosive Trap

Acid Venom: 30 HP/s. Source: arrow, bullet, flask, Spider Staff, Queen Spider, Pygmy

Dryad's Blessing: 6~16 HP/s on expert mode. Source: Dryad

Celled: I'm not sure how this works. Source: Stardust Cell

Daybroken: 25-200 HP/s from Daybreak, can be stacked; 25HP/s from Solar Eruption


That's the main subject I'm talking about here. These damage values could be fine on pre-Hardmode, but once Hardmode arrives, Ichor becomes better than them unless you are using a rather slow weapon. Poisoned, On Fire, and Frostburn are exceptionally weak here, although they can be inflicted by some HM weapons/flasks. Also speaking of Cursed Inferno and Acid Venom, I believe many people will pick Ichor instead, due to its high potential.

Ichor: -15 defense. Source: golden shower, bullet, arrow, flask, dart, blade tongue

Betsy's Curse: -40 defense. Source: Betsy's Wrath


I'm okay about their current status. For Ichor, it's +7.5 damage per hit. Take rangers as an example, if you attack with Megashark/Tsunami/Chain Gun without a speed boost against a single target, 64/94/113 extra damage per second will be dealt. With a Rapid Chain Gun, it's 150 per second. You can use some minions for extra damage.

Confused: drives enemies away. 70% of enemies and all bosses are immune according to the wiki, so it's probably not very useful. Source: BoC, a few weapons, nano bullet, flask

Midas: gives 10-49% more coins. I've never tried it, but I suppose it could be used to give the final blow to enemies. Sounds kinda unnecessary though. Source: flask, golden bullet


I'm not experienced with these two debuffs, but they don't seem to be useful for combat.

In conclusion, many DoT debuffs need to be buffed here. For Poisoned, On Fire, Frostburn, and Shadowflame, I'll suggest increasing their base damage to 15/15/20/25 in Hardmode. For Cursed Inferno and Acid Venom, maybe 30/35?
In addition, make enemies take more damage as you progress. For example, a multiplier of 1/1.5/2 can be applied to Normal/Expert/Master Mode for enemies, and an extra multiplier of 1/2/2.25 for pre-HM/HM/post-plantera, just like how expert mode enemies scale.

Reminds me of when I thought they would add Frostburn and Shadowflame equivalents to the Magma Stone after the Oiled debuff was introduced. Mostly because the idea of stacking these damaging debuffs on bosses seemed so cool at the time.

Of course with Oiled changed to give a flat 25 dmg/sec instead of per flame effect the combination idea kinda died. Well, the combining of flames idea died, the oiled debuff is actually stronger now as it was difficult to get its extra damage so high.

Anyway, the point being that any buff to flame debuffs must consider the fact that oiled will increase its damage per second by 25.
 
Worm scarf - increase the reduction of damage taken from 17% to 20%.

Slight change, mainly improving the visual element of the description, but also making it easier to calculate blocked damage and more fitting the expert item than the random 17%.
 
I think debuffs inflicted on enemies need to be rebalanced. I'll make a list for comparison. (player-only debuffs and visual ones are not listed here)

Poisoned: 2 HP/s. Source: dart, flask, Spore Sac, some weapons like Snapthorn, Hornet, Poison Staff, Toxikarp

Penetrated: 3~18 HP/s. Source: Bone Javelin, can be stacked

On Fire: 4 HP/s. Source: Hellstone tools, arrow, flask, some weapons like Imp, Firecracker, Flamelash, Phantom Phoenix

Frostburn: 8 HP/s. Source: arrow, Frost armor, Amarok, Cool Whip, Flower of Frost

Hellfire: 15 HP/s. Source: Fire Gauntlet, Magma Stone

Shadowflame: 15 HP/s. Source: Shadowflame Knife/Bow/Hex Doll dropped from Goblin Summoner

Cursed Inferno: 24 HP/s. Source: arrow, bullet, flask, dart, Cursed Flames, Clinger Staff

Oiled: 25 HP/s if inflicted with fire debuffs. Source: Explosive Trap

Acid Venom: 30 HP/s. Source: arrow, bullet, flask, Spider Staff, Queen Spider, Pygmy

Dryad's Blessing: 6~16 HP/s on expert mode. Source: Dryad

Celled: I'm not sure how this works. Source: Stardust Cell

Daybroken: 25~200 HP/s from Daybreak, can be stacked; 25 HP/s from Solar Eruption


That's the main subject I'm talking about here. These damage values could be fine on pre-Hardmode, but once Hardmode arrives, Ichor becomes better than them unless you are using a rather slow weapon. Some of them, including Poisoned, On Fire, and Frostburn, are exceptionally weak here, although they can be inflicted by some HM weapons/flasks. Also speaking of Cursed Inferno and Acid Venom, I believe many people will pick Ichor instead, due to its high potential.

Ichor: -15 defense. Source: golden shower, bullet, arrow, flask, dart, blade tongue

Betsy's Curse: -40 defense. Source: Betsy's Wrath


I'm okay about their current status. For Ichor, it's +7.5 damage per hit. Take rangers as an example, if you attack with Megashark/Tsunami/Chain Gun without a speed boost against a single target, 64/94/113 extra damage per second will be dealt. With a Rapid Chain Gun, it's 150 per second. You can use some minions for extra damage.

Confused: drives enemies away. 70% of enemies and all bosses are immune according to the wiki. Source: Brain of Confusion, a few weapons, bullet, flask

Midas: gives 10-49% more coins. I've never tried it, but I suppose it could be used to give the final blow to enemies. Sounds kinda unnecessary though. Source: flask, bullet


I'm not experienced with these two debuffs, but they don't seem to be useful for combat.

In conclusion, many DoT debuffs need to be buffed here. For Poisoned, On Fire, Frostburn, and Shadowflame, I'll suggest increasing their base damage to 15/20/25/30 in Hardmode. For Hellfire, Cursed Inferno, and Acid Venom, maybe 35/30/40?
In addition, make enemies take more damage from debuffs as you progress. For example, a multiplier of 1/1.5/2 can be applied to Normal/Expert/Master Mode for enemies, and an extra multiplier of 1/2/3 for pre-HM/HM/post-plantera, just like how expert mode enemies scale.

Edit: the above multiplier should not be applied to Celled or Daybroken as they are inflicted by a specific weapon and can already deal significant damage.
How about making the dot debuff's act like mana sickness? The longer its remaining time is increases its damage and it gradually decreases but you can bump its time higher by re-inflicting the debuff. If that's out of the scope of the patch then ignore me.
 
I'd still argue that Yoyo's have way more utility than most melee weapons have, just alone the controllable range at distance makes it very stong.

Unless you want to encourage yoyo's cheesing further, I find the damage reduction behind walls valid enough
 
How about the Nimbus Rod's projectiles being able to go through grates?
That's an idea for the future that I don't think Lenfors could do on his own.
Grates allowing projectiles to go through them, it would require some new coding for sure, being the now first block that prevents entities from passing but liquids and projectiles can.
 
Both of the Beetle Armor hints speak of "helping beetles," but only the Shell summons the little beetles to "help."
Is it possible to change the description of the second breastplate, or add a reinforcement visualization in the form of beetles?
 
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