Other Mage early-game needs a fix.

[Yousef the H]

Mage is a generally beloved class by the community, a little more on the lesser side in comparison to other classes according to multiple polls i've seen online, but still a generally enjoyed class.
Why is it on the lesser side though? Well, a couple issues, I'll try going over them and hopefully give a good enough fix, or at least spark an idea. This'll be a long one.

I'll mark issues with colors along the way, RED being a big issue GREEN being an issue with no need to fix if red is fixed. blue is a not so severe issue but needs fixing. Yellow is a semi issue that doesn't need discussion, just a small buff or nerf usually is enough. Purple is a boon that might need a change if all of this is changed (small nerf, a little rework, etc)


Space gun.
space gun is a great weapon! Its stats are compareable to ...flintlock pistol... why.
space gun has:
17 damage, 17 usetime.
flintlock pistol has:
13 damage (+bullet damage, 20 with just musket balls), 16 usetime.
"space gun has 3 pierce!!!!" i'd like to see that pierce be useful when it has very little knockback, and is still lacking true DPS
"it costs no mana with full meteor armor!!!" and musket balls cost 7 copper
space gun would be a great early game weapon, if not for the fact it's completely locked behind eater of world/brain of cthulhu, heck it would actually be able to use its 3 pierce on those bosses much more effectively than others, but alas, locked behind them and... remind me why it got nerfed in 1.4.1?

"just get demon scythe or gray zapinator!!"
that's my second issue
Demon scythe:
demon scythe is a great weapon that can be gotten at pre boss with a little bit of harsh farming in the underworld, a little rough but it's possible, the weapon has a little lower accuracy because of its ability to pierce many times, and attack in a somewhat successive manner.
That seems good, why is it a problem? Demon scythe is the definitive best mage weapon in pre hardmode, which means let's say you got to post evil and decided to go to the underworld for hellstone not knowing/forgetting it's not useful for mage or wanting to sell it for quick and good money, you got a demon scythe and suddenly you don't even need to fight skeletron, your current gear is strong enough to completely beat WoF, infact you get almost no upgrades from the dungeon, just generally weapons that could rival the demon scythe, which in my opinion is not great design, you CAN not nerf the demon scythe, it staying as a pre-boss option available to those who are willing to grind, but the issue is that there are no available options to rival it in the post evil boss stage, i wonder why


Gray zapinator: good weapon, horrible obtainment method, but it's not that bad... why can i get a weapon with 42 base damage, 36 usetime but damage bonuses are multiplicative with base damage and it still gets the bonus from meteor armor's set bonus (0 mana) before space gun, it's like a slap to the face, why is that weapon so hated?

Gem staves.
gem staves are cool weapons, somewhat hard to get without a spelunker but still an easy find early game
No. They are not. Gem staves are horrible to get in the true early game phase without being lucky, getting a ruby/amber staff is an OK grind, could take a bit but is generally do-able, but man the diamond staff is horrible to get, diamond is super rare and platinum can frick you over and have you go fishing if you don't get it in your world the gem staves before emerald are generally terrible, while you can argue for worth, wand of frosting shouldn't be comparable to any of them, yet here we are.

Jungle armor has a really high base defense for being the first mage armor, currently i'm doing a mage playthrough (not the bees though) and jungle armor is really strong defensively, and slightly good offensively, with meteor armor's buff in 1.4.4, it actually makes this armor balanced, but i would also like to talk about how the gem robes exist and provide really good damage with a not so great amount of defense but you can use warding

The dungeon.
Dungeon is great for mage, you get water scepter, water bolt, access to flame lash... oh, you have demon scythe/gray zapi? well suddenly the dungeon weapons are underwhelming.
aside from water scepter, the other two aren't so great (i hear flame lash is pretty useful, but i personally don't find its mechanic all that cool/good)
of course, you can ignore demon scythe/gray zapi, and rely entirely on space gun/gem staves/idk book of skulls for skeletron/WoF, but you're still ignoring some of the best weapons for the class willingly to change around the playthrough, which leads me to my final problem.

Repetitiveness
Mage as a whole just sometimes feels repetitive, you might look at summoner but i'll cut it some slack, it got whips only 4 years ago, and seems to be getting a whole lot extra stuff in 1.4.5, so i'd like to focus a little more on the class that had many times to change
for me, mage is a single progess line with barely any options for different feeling for a run, aside from the post plantera stage which has 200 options for every class. The progression usually goes like this:
Wand of sparking -> wand of frosting/tier1/2 gem staff -> Gray zapi if lucky/Demon scythe grind if i feel like it/tier 3 gem staff -> actually get gray zapi/demon scythe because as discussed space gun is not worth, meteor armor is worth though -> laser gun if lucky/meteor staff/orange zapinator -> orange zapinator (for plantera this time) -> options. (usually razorblade until pillars)

 

[Asternove]

I remember getting bored in my first ever play through (mage) and making a new Summoner world and beating ML. I also did a hybrid expert run after, but I used Melee for ML because, let’s face it, Melee is overpowered post-Plantera.

I wonder why I can’t commit to a mage play through…

 

[Yousef the H]

I remember getting bored in my first ever play through (mage) and making a new Summoner world and beating ML. I also did a hybrid expert run after, but I used Melee for ML because, let’s face it, Melee is overpowered post-Plantera.

I wonder why I can’t commit to a mage play through…

later game mage is very nice, orange zapi is one of my favorite weapons in the whole game, it just has the roughest start out of any class which is generally why people would stop early on, if you were to keep through with it until mechs (which is unacceptable imo) you'll have equal or more fun than other classes, it's just that getting there is too much time to where it's nearly unjustified

 

[chewythebigblackdog]

I agree with this, though I definitely don't agree that mage as a whole is repetitive. My biggest gripe with mage early game is that all of the weapons feel the same (besides the evil biome weapons, which both aren't really designed to be used as a main weapon). Once skeletron is defeated variety opens up, which is nice. I kind of get your point about demon scythe outclassing dungeon weapons on the wall of flesh, but against normal enemies (especially in early hardmode) demon scythe is hard to use against anything that doesn't try to get close to you.

And then for pre-mech, there's a fair bit of weapon variety so it's not really the game's fault that you think it's repetitive here. Orange Zapinator might be a bit too good though (did not know that thing was the best mage option for plantera), but even though it's the best bossing weapon that doesn't mean it's your only option (especially with how annoying it is to get one). I personally think the meteor staff is pretty overrated, it's an average at best weapon for all 3 mechs. I do think that it's kind of a shame that most of the mage weapons that are good for twins play similarly (zapinator/crystal serpent/sky fracture), but again, bosses aren't everything and I'd much rather have something like cursed flames, life drain, nimbus rod, and/or clinger staff when fighting enemies/invasions. Pre-plantera you still can keep using all of your pre-mech weapons but you also have access to stuff like venom staff and rainbow rod.

I also did a hybrid expert run after, but I used Melee for ML because, let’s face it, Melee is overpowered post-Plantera.

I find it a little amusing that you say this in reference to mage, which is arguably even more overpowered post-plantera since spectre hood gives you lifesteal on everything.

 

[Asternove]

I find it a little amusing that you say this in reference to mage, which is arguably even more overpowered post-plantera since spectre hood gives you lifesteal on everything.

Moon bite

 

[chewythebigblackdog]

Moon bite

I did forget to mention moon lord, where melee is (imo) the best option due to just how good tank setups are for that fight (plus daybreak being a solid weapon for the fight). Mage can do just fine with hallowed armour or a valhalla knight hybrid set, though.

 

[J Bame]

Finding out Space Gun has less base DPS than Flintlock Pistol was depressing, but you also have to keep in mind that Mage has both Magic Power and Meteor armor which are already +47% DPS, Ranger only has fossil armor (+9% dps)

I also wouldnt shrug off the pierce as quickly as you did because its up to triple the base dps in the right conditions

I do think it needs a small buff but nothing too major

Making Demon Scythe strictly Post Skeletron implies that Hellstone should also be strictly Post Skeletron, and then you realize that the real issue there is that Hell's enemies are extremely undertuned and nothing can stop you from drinking and obsidian skin potion and diving into a Lava Lake.

In simpler terms, make Hell harder before you touch Demon Scythe and Hellstone's tiering

We really do need 3-4 new weapons in prehardmode before Skeletron, you end up using a Ruby/Diamond Staff for longer than you would think: Vilethorn is great but it has RNG and issues against flying bosses, Thunder Zapper is basically a diamond staff with a little higher single target, and crimson rod isnt even a main weapon

 

[LisanPaez05]

Okay, a few things

Both Wands (sparking and frosting) are insanely Op for the early game for their DOT, unless you're playing Master Mode, what is not the case for new players

The Space Gun is nerf nowadays, in previous versions you could get the Meteor Set before fighting EoW or BoC, and that Set was the best option for Mage against those 2 bosses

But have "infinite mana" is a OP feature because you won't suffer mana sickness, you have DPS

The Demon Scythe is a weapon planned to you to obtain it Post Skeletron, you are going straight to hell to obtain because you already know the game, is not the case for new players

You go to the Dungeon, defeat Skeletron and you obtain 3 different mage weapons

Water Bolt, what is great for small spaces, ergo, the Dungeon

Magic Missile, is a GREAT weapon

Water Scepter, isn't a good weapon, I give you a point in that, I did never use it in my 10 years playing Terraria

Gray Zapinator should be an early Hard Mode Weapon, you're right there, it breaks progression

If you argue that you get Gems Staff only by randomness, you're right, but you're forgetting that is the same for Melee and Ranger (Swords and Bows)

The only class that suffers do Skeletron with mineral items is Melee for the lack of range, isn't the case for both Ranger and Mage

And finally

Pre Boss: 10 weapons (2 wands, 8 gem staff, Evil magic weapon, Desert Magic weapon)

Post Deerclops: 1 weapon (I never used)

Post EoW: 1 weapon and a set easy to get (literally in the Surface)

Post Queen Bee: Bee Gun, great weapon to defeat Skeletron

Post Skeletron: 7 weapons (3 dungeon weapons, rare Skeletron drop, Demon Scythe, and 2 Shadow chest items)

Post WoF: 13 weapons (1 WoF drop, 2 Biome Mimics drops, Fishing Hallow Drop, 2 books, Spider drop, that desert item, light fragments item, Goblin Warlock drop, Medusa drop, 1 Mimic drop, Pixie item)

Post Mech: 5 weapons (2 mech item, 1 solar eclipse item, Lemon Staff upgrade, OOA Ogre drop)

Post Plantera: 9 weapons (4 dungeon weapons, 1 Plantera drop, 2 Frost Moon drop, 1 Pumpkin Moon drop, 1 Biome Chest

Post Golem/DF/EoL: 3 (2 golem drops, 1 EoL drop, 1 DF drop, 2 Martian madness drops)

2 Lunar Event weapons, and 2 ML drops


There are not repetitiveness, you are not longer a new player

 

[Yousef the H]

I agree with this, though I definitely don't agree that mage as a whole is repetitive. My biggest gripe with mage early game is that all of the weapons feel the same (besides the evil biome weapons, which both aren't really designed to be used as a main weapon). Once skeletron is defeated variety opens up, which is nice. I kind of get your point about demon scythe outclassing dungeon weapons on the wall of flesh, but against normal enemies (especially in early hardmode) demon scythe is hard to use against anything that doesn't try to get close to you.

in pre hardmode the only enemies i can think of at the top of my head are hornets and demons themselves... aside from that the demon scythe can work against almost every enemy (the dungeon mage and fire imps' projectiles can be destroyed easily with demon scythe)

And then for pre-mech, there's a fair bit of weapon variety so it's not really the game's fault that you think it's repetitive here. Orange Zapinator might be a bit too good though (did not know that thing was the best mage option for plantera), but even though it's the best bossing weapon that doesn't mean it's your only option (especially with how annoying it is to get one). I personally think the meteor staff is pretty overrated, it's an average at best weapon for all 3 mechs.

i just enjoy its playstyle more than crystal serpent/sky fracture/spirit flame... with crystal serpent being one of my least favorite weapons, just personal stuff though.

bosses aren't everything and I'd much rather have something like cursed flames, life drain, nimbus rod, and/or clinger staff when fighting enemies/invasions. Pre-plantera you still can keep using all of your pre-mech weapons but you also have access to stuff like venom staff and rainbow rod.

i mainly meant the repetitiveness for pre hardmode mage, hardmode for all classes is generally a breath of fresh air almost no matter what except melee, if you don't tank it's kinda boring

Finding out Space Gun has less base DPS than Flintlock Pistol was depressing, but you also have to keep in mind that Mage has both Magic Power and Meteor armor which are already +47% DPS, Ranger only has fossil armor (+9% dps)

i kinda forgot about magic power's existance, will certainly be of value in my current playthrough!

I also wouldnt shrug off the pierce as quickly as you did because its up to triple the base dps in the right conditions

i just don't feel like you can get those right conditions in hardmode aside from the skeletron fight or the dungeon, the latter being much easier to deal with at this stage. i find myself barely able to utilize two pierces against skeletron

I do think it needs a small buff but nothing too major

being nerfed in 1.4.1 is what made me do this whole post

Making Demon Scythe strictly Post Skeletron implies that Hellstone should also be strictly Post Skeletron, and then you realize that the real issue there is that Hell's enemies are extremely undertuned and nothing can stop you from drinking and obsidian skin potion and diving into a Lava Lake.

i think the underworld is generally meant to be visited after skeletron, but i have no idea what the devs' ideas are for this stage

In simpler terms, make Hell harder before you touch Demon Scythe and Hellstone's tiering

i generally find it weird how hellstone is available at the same time as evil boss upgrades

We really do need 3-4 new weapons in prehardmode before Skeletron, you end up using a Ruby/Diamond Staff for longer than you would think: Vilethorn is great but it has RNG and issues against flying bosses, Thunder Zapper is basically a diamond staff with a little higher single target, and crimson rod isnt even a main weapon

i know right!? i don't like using thunder zapper cuz close range mage is something i just cannot play

 

[Yousef the H]

Okay, a few things

Both Wands (sparking and frosting) are insanely Op for the early game for their DOT, unless you're playing Master Mode, what is not the case for new players

if they are good on classic/expert they will still be better than the other options on master... i don't get you here

The Space Gun is nerf nowadays, in previous versions you could get the Meteor Set before fighting EoW or BoC, and that Set was the best option for Mage against those 2 bosses

yeah it was, they nerfed its damage in 1.4.1 which is just insane for me to think about

But have "infinite mana" is a OP feature because you won't suffer mana sickness, you have DPS

Mana guide by qwerty
infinite mana is only a 10% damage increase

The Demon Scythe is a weapon planned to you to obtain it Post Skeletron, you are going straight to hell to obtain because you already know the game, is not the case for new players

i've seen many people, which included me at the time, just have the urge to find out what is at the bottom of the world earlier than skeletron... it's more on how curious the player is, rather than how new/old they are

Magic Missile, is a GREAT weapon

instantly powercrept by flamelash, it's insane to me how sad that weapon is

Water Scepter, isn't a good weapon, I give you a point in that, I did never use it in my 10 years playing Terraria

actually many would disagree with you on that, water scepter is a great weapon but i also almost never use it due to how weird it is, i imagine that could be the reason why others don't pick it up

Gray Zapinator should be an early Hard Mode Weapon, you're right there, it breaks progression

orange zapinator is an early pre hardmode weapon, i think gray zapi is good at its place, but it's just a little over tuned for when you get it (post eye of cthulhu)

If you argue that you get Gems Staff only by randomness, you're right, but you're forgetting that is the same for Melee and Ranger (Swords and Bows)

difference is:
melee and ranger have other options such as:
getting lucky/grinding in the jungle, buying stuff from arms dealer, heck, musket/under taker is a weapon you can get nearly instantly on any playthrough, and they're really good weaps
if you use ore swords are melee idk what to say to you except you need to start rethinking your life choices

The only class that suffers do Skeletron with mineral items is Melee for the lack of range, isn't the case for both Ranger and Mage

i did not intend for the whole hellstone thing to be a discussion point, i just mentioned it as something players oculd do to stumble upon the demon scythe without no real prior knowledge (and of course aside from just straight up curiosity)

And finally

Pre Boss: 10 weapons (2 wands, 8 gem staff, Evil magic weapon, Desert Magic weapon)

Post Deerclops: 1 weapon (I never used)

Post EoW: 1 weapon and a set easy to get (literally in the Surface)

Post Queen Bee: Bee Gun, great weapon to defeat Skeletron

Post Skeletron: 7 weapons (3 dungeon weapons, rare Skeletron drop, Demon Scythe, and 2 Shadow chest items)



There are not repetitiveness, you are not longer a new player

my main issue is pre hardmode so i'll discuss it
8 gem staves with 4 of them being somewhat underpowered, heck i'd argue just bad when you look at wand of sparking/frosting
never used the deer drop either but i hear its weak, space gun is underpowered, and meteor is slightly RNG... bee gun is good.
i never even discussed flower of fire, why is it so bad.
book of skulls needs a buff, it's too slow to do much
3 dungeon weapons with one of them being instantly powercrept by 1 of the two underworld weapons, with as mentioned above... the other is just bad.
so out of the collective 20 weapons for up to post skeletron you mentioned, many of them are too weak for the progression point, causing you to use the same weapons

edit:
i take it back
beegun is bad.

 

[Ultimate snowman 46]

Aqua sceptre is amazing for wall of flesh, because of its arc you can just stay behind blocks and the wall can never get you.

-> laser gun if lucky/meteor staff/orange zapinator -> orange zapinator (for plantera this time) -> options. (usually razorblade until pillars)

Rainbow rod, crystal storm, nimbus rod, cursed flames, golden shower, frost staff and magic harp have left.
Also last time i used orange zapinator i thought it was garbage, is it just me?

 

[Dapling]

Aqua sceptre is amazing for wall of flesh, because of its arc you can just stay behind blocks and the wall can never get you.

This doesn’t happen in practice. The wall moves too much to keep that kind of positioning up for long.

Also last time i used orange zapinator i thought it was

It’s really strong lol

 

[Ultimate snowman 46]

This doesn’t happen in practice. The wall moves too much to keep that kind of positioning up for long.

For me it absolutely wrecked the wall on master, i didn't even need to try. It has quite good reach so you can keep your distance and then move to next blockade.

It’s really strong lol

Even up there with rainbow rod? The projectile's thin and it's slow making it harder to aim, and i recall it firing super inconsistently and not dealing that much damage. I might need to check it out again though.

 

[chewythebigblackdog]

in pre hardmode the only enemies i can think of at the top of my head are hornets and demons themselves... aside from that the demon scythe can work against almost every enemy (the dungeon mage and fire imps' projectiles can be destroyed easily with demon scythe)

i just enjoy its playstyle more than crystal serpent/sky fracture/spirit flame... with crystal serpent being one of my least favorite weapons, just personal stuff though.

Yeah when I was saying that I was mainly thinking demons and skeleton archers (maybe clingers/ichor stickers too but you probably have a better weapon by then). It's not a deal breaker by any means but it does make me want to have a secondary weapon.

Yeah I also dislike serpent and sky fracture, having to lead your shots so much just feels bad. My main dislike of meteor staff comes from just how much mana it used, but I should probably give it another try since its mana usage got buffed in 1.4.4.

instantly powercrept by flamelash, it's insane to me how sad that weapon is

actually many would disagree with you on that, water scepter is a great weapon but i also almost never use it due to how weird it is, i imagine that could be the reason why others don't pick it up

my main issue is pre hardmode so i'll discuss it
8 gem staves with 4 of them being somewhat underpowered, heck i'd argue just bad when you look at wand of sparking/frosting
never used the deer drop either but i hear its weak, space gun is underpowered, and meteor is slightly RNG... bee gun is good.
i never even discussed flower of fire, why is it so bad.
book of skulls needs a buff, it's too slow to do much
3 dungeon weapons with one of them being instantly powercrept by 1 of the two underworld weapons, with as mentioned above... the other is just bad.
so out of the collective 20 weapons for up to post skeletron you mentioned, many of them are too weak for the progression point, causing you to use the same weapons

edit:
i take it back
beegun is bad.

I actually significantly prefer magic missile to flamelash. On regular enemies flamelash has an issue of not getting the second hit unless there's a decent amount of open space for it. If you get the second hit, it can knock enemies towards you which can be annoying. Magic missile's higher base damage, faster fire rate, and better consistency makes it my preferred pick for dealing with underworld enemies. Flamelash does better against queen bee (if you do her after skeletron) and I guess refighting skeletron if you do that. Both of them aren't very good for wall of flesh so they don't have much value there.

Book of skulls is pretty decent, though it doesn't do very well on wall of flesh. I think it needs an obtainability buff more than a damage buff, since I'd never refight skeletron for it. Buffing its performance on wall of flesh would also be appreciated.

 

[Dapling]

Even up there with rainbow rod? The projectile's thin and it's slow making it harder to aim, and i recall it firing super inconsistently and not dealing that much damage. I might need to check it out again though.

The projectile’s pretty fast velocity-wise and has no spread at all so I’m not sure what you mean by hard to aim. The base damage is also pretty high and can hit around twice per shot on average (assuming you’re unlucky and don’t get any of the fancier effects it sometimes has).

Also “firing inconsistently” simply isn’t a thing after they added the Autofire setting in 1.4.4 so not sure what you’re talking about there either.

 

[Yousef the H]

Aqua sceptre is amazing for wall of flesh, because of its arc you can just stay behind blocks and the wall can never get you.

Rainbow rod, crystal storm, nimbus rod, cursed flames, golden shower and magic harp have left the chat.
Also last time i used orange zapinator i thought it was garbage, is it just me?

Edit: Frost staff has also left the chat

again, those are my usual options, and hardmode isn't that lacking in comparison to how generally not great magic weapons feel in pre hardmode, especially that pre skeletron area.

I actually significantly prefer magic missile to flamelash. On regular enemies flamelash has an issue of not getting the second hit unless there's a decent amount of open space for it. If you get the second hit, it can knock enemies towards you which can be annoying. Magic missile's higher base damage, faster fire rate, and better consistency makes it my preferred pick for dealing with underworld enemies. Flamelash does better against queen bee (if you do her after skeletron) and I guess refighting skeletron if you do that. Both of them aren't very good for wall of flesh so they don't have much value there.

for me to hit the second hit with flame lash i use the ground/walls, and as for the higher base damage i was about to say something then i realized 1.4.4 is a very wild update with changes
i'd say flamelash is a little decent for wall, exploding and doing grouped damage is pretty good, magic missile's issue is not going through hungries, but flamelash can use its pierce to get through to the wall.

Book of skulls is pretty decent, though it doesn't do very well on wall of flesh. I think it needs an obtainability buff more than a damage buff, since I'd never refight skeletron for it. Buffing its performance on wall of flesh would also be appreciated.

velocity isn't exactly a damage buff but a consistancy buff, it already has homing, just not great to use.

 

[Ultimate snowman 46]

The projectile’s pretty fast velocity-wise and has no spread at all so I’m not sure what you mean by hard to aim.

I meant slow fire rate, meaning your shots need to be more on point, but since it's a thin bullet it's harder to aim anyway.

The base damage is also pretty high and can hit around twice per shot on average (assuming you’re unlucky and don’t get any of the fancier effects it sometimes has).

Yeah i must be missing a trick there, i just seem to remember it being not as powerful as the other stuff for some reason.

Also “firing inconsistently” simply isn’t a thing after they added the Autofire setting in 1.4.4 so not sure what you’re talking about there either.

By that i just meant when you go to shoot and it just goes off and does wacky stuff.

 

[Yousef the H]

The base damage is also pretty high and can hit around twice per shot on average (assuming you’re unlucky and don’t get any of the fancier effects it sometimes has).

i just want to say, it has a -10% damage penalty after each hit.

By that i just meant when you go to shoot and it just goes off and does wacky stuff.

the whacky stuff is usually to your benefit, especially when you have a chance to just 10x damage or knockback, generally the weapon would pierce twice and it's not that mana costly so you can really go wild.