NPCs & Enemies Make Lunatic Cultist the difficulty of Duke Fishron

[Timey-Whimy]

I'm not suggesting any new attacks or anything specific, but if Lunatic Cultist was buffed to be around the same difficulty as Duke then most of the problems surrounding post-Golem Hardmode would be smoothed out.

Specifically, there is no incentive to do post Plantera/Golem content because you can rush Cultist for far superior weapons.

 

[cockatoo12]

I agree with this a lot
I think that they should make the celestial tablet non consumable but in tradeoff the cultist should become an actual threat
late game terraria is currently really flawed imo plantera golem and cultist aren't a big enough jump in difficulty from each other so its easy to speedrun progression and I think buffing cultist to be a more full on boss is a step in the right direction

 

[Asternove]

I feel like the Terraria community collectively agrees on this, so I support.

 

[Orchamut]

As someone who sucks at the game and can't beat duke fishron without pillar weapons, I think cultist is fine as is. If he was as hard as duke anyway I don't think that would change much since beating him first would still be the most efficient way to progress. I wouldn't be very opposed to pillar weapons maybe being nerfed or locked behind an extra requirement though.
As it stands I honestly don't see any issue with being able to speedrun progression in a singleplayer sandbox game, like, this is like if people wanted defeating the Wither to be required before being able to access the End. It's a shame that nearly everything before lunar events is outclassed by everything that comes after, but that's just a fundamental issue with how Terraria tries to have a definitive 'final boss' progression tier with incredibly narrow content that makes any equipment that comes before mostly obsolete. I think it shows that the journey is more important than the destination.

 

[Asternove]

As someone who sucks at the game and can't beat duke fishron without pillar weapons, I think cultist is fine as is. If he was as hard as duke anyway I don't think that would change much since beating him first would still be the most efficient way to progress. I wouldn't be very opposed to pillar weapons maybe being nerfed or locked behind an extra requirement though.
As it stands I honestly don't see any issue with being able to speedrun progression in a singleplayer sandbox game, like, this is like if people wanted defeating the Wither to be required before being able to access the End. It's a shame that nearly everything before lunar events is outclassed by everything that comes after, but that's just a fundamental issue with how Terraria tries to have a definitive 'final boss' progression tier with incredibly narrow content that makes any equipment that comes before mostly obsolete. I think it shows that the journey is more important than the destination.

If you want to progression skip you just have to be good. Those flashy weapons post-Plantera aren't going to use themselves.

 

[Orchamut]

If you want to progression skip you just have to be good. Those flashy weapons post-Plantera aren't going to use themselves.

Well I mean there's nothing stopping people from fighting Duke pre-mech, and I wouldn't mind or care if EoL was changed to be accessible pre-mech as well.
Ignoring them altogether also isn't progression skipping since they're optional content.

 

[Asternove]

Well I mean there's nothing stopping people from fighting Duke pre-mech, and I wouldn't mind or care if EoL was changed to be accessible pre-mech as well.
Ignoring them altogether also isn't progression skipping since they're optional content.

Mhm and there's nothing wrong with fighting Cultist right after Golem. It should just be a bit harder.

 

[Orchamut]

This is probably not a popular opinion, but personally, if I were directly asked how to make post-golem content more enticing, I'd add cool accessories and maybe even armor sets to it. Unless you're summoner, I'm pretty sure all you have to look forward to in terms of accessories and armor from duke fishron, EoL, OOA, martian madness, pumpkin/frost moon and so on, is wings, a few decent mounts, and some armor from OOA that's sometimes really good but generally hit or miss.
There are too many weapon and wing drops for what it's worth. If those bosses and events had more exciting accessories for all classes, then I would be way more inclined to do them I think, plus it'd be stuff that wouldn't get immediately outclassed by pillar content.
This may be powercreep, but honestly I feel like powercreep from post-golem content isn't the end of the world and would also give more justification for buffing cultist if necessary.

 

[Asternove]

This is probably not a popular opinion, but personally, if I were directly asked how to make post-golem content more enticing, I'd add cool accessories and maybe even armor sets to it. Unless you're summoner, I'm pretty sure all you have to look forward to in terms of accessories and armor from duke fishron, EoL, OOA, martian madness, pumpkin/frost moon and so on, is wings, a few decent mounts, and some armor from OOA that's sometimes really good but generally hit or miss.
There are too many weapon and wing drops for what it's worth. If those bosses and events had more exciting accessories for all classes, then I would be way more inclined to do them I think, plus it'd be stuff that wouldn't get immediately outclassed by pillar content.
This may be powercreep, but honestly I feel like powercreep from post-golem content isn't the end of the world and would also give more justification for buffing cultist if necessary.

The reason we want to buff Cultist is to make it so you actually want to use the stuff you get prior. Maybe that's also what you're saying; I might just be stupid.

 

[Russ Guss Doodles]

I agree, but like I’ve said in other threads the Lunatic Cultist only needs a buff in Expert Mode and higher difficulties. The Lunatic Cultist’s difficulty in normal mode is perfect for new players and I don’t think encouraging newbies to go fight Duke and EoL is necessary. But in Expert Mode, Master Mode, and Legendary Mode it makes sense to basically require players to overcome some of Terraria’s difficult endgame content to get past the Lunatic Cultist.

 

[Orchamut]

The reason we want to buff Cultist is to make it so you actually want to use the stuff you get prior. Maybe that's also what you're saying; I might just be stupid.

I mean sort of, personally I just don't care whether or not cultist is buffed since I don't see that fixing anything on its own. Completionists or people who enjoy doing the optional post-golem content will still do it, and people who'd rather move through the game as efficiently as possible will still ignore it.
I simply don't like how the lunar event sequence is designed because as long as it's there, Terraria will always be stuck with the curse of having a clear singular 'goal', and the best equipment you can get will always be the same few items.

 

[LisanPaez05]

can't beat duke fishron

Well, to be honest, Duke Fishron is some sort of "secret boss", so it has sense being a hard fight

Same as Empress of Light, there is no real reason to be at night in Surface Hallow after Golem, unless you are searching Lacewing to fight EoL

 

[Salty_]

Issue: difficulty is subjective and you give literally no ideas on how to buff him. For all I know you could be the worst Duke Fishron fighter ever and so cultist would need a lot of buffs, or you could be the Duke Fishron Slayer 420 and give cultist a minor buff.

 

[cockatoo12]

Issue: difficulty is subjective and you give literally no ideas on how to buff him. For all I know you could be the worst Duke Fishron fighter ever and so cultist would need a lot of buffs, or you could be the Duke Fishron Slayer 420 and give cultist a minor buff.

I don't think someone who's super good at the game would give a minor tweak if anything they would probably have a better understanding of what makes duke and empress hard but I agree that actually rebalancing the fight is rather hard and would require playtesting to get it 'right'
I also think that eol and duke gear should be lesser considered and mainly post golem gear should be focused on when rebalancing the fight as in to make it hard with post golem gear rather than the push over he currently is
cultist at least in my experience is rather frail and some of his attacks could be tweaked to be a bit harder (personally I would buff his hp add a few new attacks and adjust the new ones to keep them in line, while keeping his consistent attack cycle as I love those)
Edited to be a bit more concise and clear
Edit: I actually just realised I would love a rework to the clone mechanic to make it so he spawns clones as support as his hp gets lower or something instead of during the summoning circle attack I think that would be way better especially in multiplayer (my friends always hit the clones its super annoying)

 

[Salty_]

I don't think someone who's super good at the game would give a minor tweak if anything they would probably have a better understanding of what makes duke and empress hard but I agree that actually rebalancing the fight is rather hard and would require playtesting to get it 'right'
I also think that eol and duke gear should be lesser considered and mainly post golem gear should be focused on when rebalancing the fight as in to make it hard with post golem gear rather than the push over he currently is
cultist at least in my experience is rather frail and some of his attacks could be tweaked to be a bit harder (personally I would buff his hp add a few new attacks and adjust the new ones to keep them in line, while keeping his consistent attack cycle as I love those)
Edited to be a bit more concise and clear
Edit: I actually just realised I would love a rework to the clone mechanic to make it so he spawns clones as support as his hp gets lower or something instead of during the summoning circle attack I think that would be way better especially in multiplayer (my friends always hit the clones its super annoying)

I do not like the idea of nerfing EoL and duke stuff at all.

I feel like a very simple way to make cultist harder is to have him... move. Maybe flying around you in a circular pattern while he fires his projectiles. Maybe add in the clones in that circle for extra sauce.

 

[cockatoo12]

I do not like the idea of nerfing EoL and duke stuff at all.

I feel like a very simple way to make cultist harder is to have him... move. Maybe flying around you in a circular pattern while he fires his projectiles. Maybe add in the clones in that circle for extra sauce.

I didn't say anything about nerfing eol and duke stuff? I more said it shouldn't be considered when balancing the boss for casual players are they may skip the bosses entirely
I do really want the shadow clone mechanic to be tweaked its either really annoying or does nothing and you are also right about his movement being very stationary (harder bosses like eol and duke are much more movement oriented and it usually works well for more engaging difficult boss fights)

 

[Mecha_]

I'm all for this considering LC is a preeeeety easy boss anyway, but you can't really just "make" something the same difficulty as another thing. Don't get me wrong, this is great, and I think the boost is really needed. But...
Do you see what I'm trying to say? (No information provided... Yikes my communication skills are bad today...)

 

[Dapling]

Lunatic Cultist has 32000 base max hp.
Skeletron prime has 28000.
The twins have a combined total of 43000 and you can’t really attack them at the same time. Even if you take cultist’s 25% homing resistance into account that’s still only 40,000 effective hp.

How on earth do people think this boss is at an acceptable difficulty. Skeletron prime has comparable hp and size and is much, much more mobile, yet in spite of that is barely over halfway through the game as opposed to literally the final sequence. Skeletron prime also similarly resists homing weapons because they can and will go for the arms rather than the boss itself. Lunatic Cultist also has an insanely important role as a gatekeeper for the finale of the game as pillars drop insanely powerful weapons that almost unanimously outclass every single weapon prior. Not only that but pillars have no losing state and can be killed regardless of how many times you die to them. Because pillars have no losing state, they linger forever which can be insanely frustrating and result in a loop of deaths for new players while they chip away at the shield, and the pillar simply doesn’t leave through all of it and there is no way to dismiss it. This is frustrating design by itself even ignoring the fact that they don’t adequately protect the weapons they drop either way. Because of this lack of a loss state, the burden of protecting pillar weapons goes to cultist, which is very decisively not up to the task as he has comparable health (if not lower) to the mech bosses except with the insanely powerful post golem and post plantera options at the player’s disposal.

Cultist needs to at the very least have more base health than current golem does (40,000). He simply dies far too quickly and his design role is far too important for that. New attack patterns would be ideal, faster attack speed would be decent, more HP would be the minimum. Literally give this boss anything besides higher damage output (his current damage output is the only thing that is adequately menacing enough for what he needs to do)

For cultist to not need a buff, pillars need to have some kind of loss state, and I think we can all agree that giving pillars a loss state is a significantly taller order than buffing cultist is.

 

[Dispenser (Engineer)]

Lunatic Cultist has 32000 base max hp.
Skeletron prime has 28000.
The twins have a combined total of 43000 and you can’t really attack them at the same time. Even if you take cultist’s 25% homing resistance into account that’s still only 40,000 effective hp.

How on earth do people think this boss is at an acceptable difficulty. Skeletron prime has comparable hp and size and is much, much more mobile, yet in spite of that is barely over halfway through the game as opposed to literally the final sequence. Skeletron prime also similarly resists homing weapons because they can and will go for the arms rather than the boss itself. Lunatic Cultist also has an insanely important role as a gatekeeper for the finale of the game as pillars drop insanely powerful weapons that almost unanimously outclass every single weapon prior. Not only that but pillars have no losing state and can be killed regardless of how many times you die to them. Because pillars have no losing state, they linger forever which can be insanely frustrating and result in a loop of deaths for new players while they chip away at the shield, and the pillar simply doesn’t leave through all of it and there is no way to dismiss it. This is frustrating design by itself even ignoring the fact that they don’t adequately protect the weapons they drop either way. Because of this lack of a loss state, the burden of protecting pillar weapons goes to cultist, which is very decisively not up to the task as he has comparable health (if not lower) to the mech bosses except with the insanely powerful post golem and post plantera options at the player’s disposal.

Cultist needs to at the very least have more base health than current golem does (40,000). He simply dies far too quickly and his design role is far too important for that. New attack patterns would be ideal, faster attack speed would be decent, more HP would be the minimum. Literally give this boss anything besides higher damage output (his current damage output is the only thing that is adequately menacing enough for what he needs to do)

For cultist to not need a buff, pillars need to have some kind of loss state, and I think we can all agree that giving pillars a loss state is a significantly taller order than buffing cultist is.

Tbh I prefer the idea of buffing the cultist rather than giving the pillars a lose state. All he needs is more health as his attacks are really fun, interesting and hit hard but he always dies too quickly to show them off properly.

 

[77ForumBone]

I agree, but like I’ve said in other threads the Lunatic Cultist only needs a buff in Expert Mode and higher difficulties. The Lunatic Cultist’s difficulty in normal mode is perfect for new players and I don’t think encouraging newbies to go fight Duke and EoL is necessary. But in Expert Mode, Master Mode, and Legendary Mode it makes sense to basically require players to overcome some of Terraria’s difficult endgame content to get past the Lunatic Cultist.

I disagree. I beat the Cultist first try in Classic with no difficulty or any potions (including heals).

As for the suggestion, I completely support. This would fix most of the problems in the game post Golem.