Other Make progression less scuffed late hardmode

[MimikyuykimiM 🌳]

I've always felt that after defeating golem , the game kinda goes buckwild in terms of progression. You could go defeat duke fishron, empress of light, martian madness etc. but at the same time you could just go beat lunatic cultist (which is far easier that duke and empress imo) and destroy some pillars to get items that are very powerful, kinda tainting the hype of getting items from the aforementioned bosses. A suggestion would be maybe placing an already existing boss as a mandatory boss in between golem and the cultist, kinda mending the problem, but I feel as if that is only a temporary fix. Progression after plantera is also kinda messed up, having two event moons, dungeon getting more enemies and items, solar eclipse etc. but like you could do with the cultist after golem, you could do with the golem after plantera pretty easily. I'm kinda making this because I feel as if I cant really even enjoy my weapons for long, because I get a better weapon after 30 minutes from the aforementioned. I'm not sure what can be done about this since this problem would take a lot of balancing and stuff.

 

[Yello_X]

You could go defeat duke fishron, empress of light, martian madness etc.

Progression after plantera is also kinda messed up, having two event moons, dungeon getting more enemies and items, solar eclipse etc.

These are optional, so you're not forced to beat them. The loot you get from them are still pretty useful if you do need them, like the Kaleidoscope and whatnot.

A suggestion would be maybe placing an already existing boss as a mandatory boss in between golem and the cultist, kinda mending the problem, but I feel as if that is only a temporary fix.

So, you're essentially suggesting to postpone the inevitable? I feel like that's going to be pointless, since the mandatory bosses serve some sort of purpose in progression (Skeletron allows the Cultists to spawn, Wall of Flesh changes the world to Hardmode, The Mech trio allows Plantera Bulbs to start growing, Plantera allows access to the Lihzahrd Temple, Golem allows the Cultists to actually start spawning). Adding in another mandatory boss would just make the steps longer and, imo, do absolutely nothing to fix the issue you mentioned.

 

[Heliodoros]

This is not that bad. I think Moons, Duke and Empress should remain optional.

After all every single pre-HM boss is optional. You can get dynamite or Demon Scythe + Jungle armor and kill Wall of Flesh as your first boss. Nobody makes you fight ither ones.

Post-Golem you just kill Skeletron for 5 seconds, spawn Cultist and then Lunar event.

EDIT: Also OP's suggestion will make all Terraria speedrun records irrelevant. Speedrunners won't like more mandatory steps to Moon Lord.

 

[MegaByte]

IIRC This was suggested before and was also discussed before in non-suggestion posts

These are optional, so you're not forced to beat them. The loot you get from them are still pretty useful if you do need them, like the Kaleidoscope and whatnot.

Kaleidoscope is one of the very few because stardust fragments doesn't let you craft a whip(well, until 1.4.5), you don't need Tsunami because you can get Phantasm easier to obtain and better, You don't need Razorblade Typhoon it's easier to get Nebula Blaze, Don't need Xenopopper or Chaingun because of Vortex Beater and so on

Pillar weapons are easier to obtain because cultist is too easy and unlike bosses pillars doesn't reset your progress when you die

After all every single pre-HM boss is optional. You can get dynamite or Demon Scythe + Jungle armor and kill Wall of Flesh as your first boss. Nobody makes you fight ither ones.

Post-Golem you just kill Skeletron for 5 seconds, spawn Cultist and then Lunar event.

It's not this simple for any class other than mage, mage can get top tier pre-hardmode armor and best weapons at the start.

Dynamite is considered a cheese, Jungle armor and Demon Scythe isn't enough. Unless you're really good at the game or playing in a difficulty that's too easy for you, you'd also needs accessories.

I wouldn't step on jungle before exploring usual underground/sky islands for some loot, I'd at least get a hook and a decent weapon, because hornets are too tedious to deal with wood tier loot. When you do some underground exploration and get some loot, you might aswell fight EoC(and maybe slime king) before jungle armor because it's not that difficult with your current loot plus some evil ore, dryad and Shield of Cthulhu would be nice to have, same goes for Eater/Brain they unlock hellstone related upgrades so why not, then skeletron gives access to dungeon and shadow cheats, so many useful loot against WoF gives best weapons against wall for non-mage classes + cobalt shield.

In pre-hardmode it makes sense to beat easier bosses before WoF because their upgrades are valuable against WoF, sometimes they are useful even in early hardmode (like cobalt shield, pheonix blaster) but when it comes to cultist bosses/challenges before him are more difficult than him but upgrades are weaker than what you get from cultist and pillars.

So they aren't worth doing in most cases unless you force yourself to do them and pretend like they matter so pre-cultist content aren't wasted.

EDIT: Also OP's suggestion will make all Terraria speedrun records irrelevant. Speedrunners won't like more mandatory steps to Moon Lord.

Devs don't have to care that much about speedrunning, plus I don't think they'd hate it unless they hate playing the game because that slows down everyone's speedruns not just theirs

This is not that bad. I think Moons, Duke and Empress should remain optional.

Yeah they should remain optional, I think buffing cultist is the easiest solution, a major buff. I'm thinking a damage increase and make it almost impossible to spot & attack the right clone before summoning the dragon.

 

[Heliodoros]

Yeah they should remain optional, I think buffing cultist is the easiest solution, a major buff. I'm thinking a damage increase and make it almost impossible to spot & attack the right clone before summoning the dragon.

IMO cultist should create Phantasmal dragons and projections even if you damaging right Cultist in circle-phase. Maybe on Expert+ difficulties.

That will suffice.

 

[Big Sammich]

This is a pretty common type of post to make. I personally also agree that the best solution is to make Cultist much harder, so that the player is forced to look for new ways to power up.

... make it almost impossible to spot & attack the right clone before summoning the dragon.

IMO cultist should create Phantasmal dragons and projections even if you damaging right Cultist in circle-phase. Maybe on Expert+ difficulties.

That will suffice.

This idea, however, I do not agree with. Preventing the Phantasm Dragon from appearing is something the player can do with skill. Making it impossible to tell the difference turns that from a question of skill to a question of luck, and that doesn't feel good for the players. And making the Phantasm Dragon appear anyway, even if you hit the right Cultist, is also a slap in the face, because it removes some of the thought and interaction from the fight and replaces it with more distraction and overhead that the players could previously avoid if they knew how.

 

[TforToe 💨]

You could go defeat duke fishron, empress of light, martian madness etc. but at the same time you could just go beat lunatic cultist (which is far easier that duke and empress imo)

Ummmmm Duke Fishron is far, far, easier than the Lunatic Cultist. Sure, empress is more difficult, but if you want to defeat lunatic, having a good mount (shrimpy truffle) having good weapons, and good supplies are useful—especially for the cultist, because of all of his projectiles. Also, Marshian Madness is important for getting the Influx waver, which ultimately leads to the Zenith, so I don't see this whole gap being a problem at all. It gives you a little room to breathe between your fights.

 

[Sora_92]

I think the main problem with late game is not whether bosses are easy or difficult. you can buff some of them or not, I think it ultimately would lead to the same thing.
I think the main problem is, that there's no adventuring part in the late game. you scouted your entire world (even if not every corner technically, most likely everything important and relevant anyway).

I think what makes earlier parts of the game draw on longer - and therefore allowing for more fun with a playthrough - is that you go to various places, fighting random monsters underground, the desert, the jungle, the ice caves, loot the dungeon, etc. Boss progression also blends in this, because you might consider some biomes too dangerous pre-bosses, or some are literally blocked prior to (like the dungeon pre-Skeletron).
some bosses also unlock new content in some areas, like life fruits start growing after 1 mech boss down, and plantera bulbs after all 3 mech bosses down, suggesting/forcing you to go and scout most of the jungle looking for these.

but after you looted the last "new" biome that was previously locked - the really not that interesting Jungle Temple - there's nothing else to scout, no new loot anywhere underground or such. the only stuff dropping newer and stronger gear are various events (like pumpkin moon), and bosses, be it optional or mandatory for progression.
so, I think, the problem is not whether Golem, LC, or any other bosses is easy or not. But that a significant part of the game (adventuring) is almost entirelly missing from late game.

 

[MegaByte]

This idea, however, I do not agree with. Preventing the Phantasm Dragon from appearing is something the player can do with skill. Making it impossible to tell the difference turns that from a question of skill to a question of luck, and that doesn't feel good for the players. And making the Phantasm Dragon appear anyway, even if you hit the right Cultist, is also a slap in the face, because it removes some of the thought and interaction from the fight and replaces it with more distraction and overhead that the players could previously avoid if they knew how.

Yeah that's why I said "almost impossible", You don't need much of a 'skill' to tell which cultist is real, that's the problem that's why he's easy, real one is darker and always spawns on top or right depending on where you are, and you get a plenty of time to attack.

You don't even need to know about top or left thing, once you notice that the real one is always darker it's so easy to avoid the dragon with how much time he gives you

I was thinking a minor detail of his(real one's) sprite would be different so it's harder to spot and you'd get a shorter time to attack before he summons a dragon, that way you'd actually need skill to avoid dragons, unlike current cultist most people will mess up at least once in fights, more skilled you are less dragons you'd have to deal with and if you're like a master at this fight you'd avoid all the dragons.

but to be honest I'd be fine with TurboClide's idea too, hitting correct cultist will be less rewarding(dragons spawn but less clones attack you) because it's easy do but most importantly it fixes the endgame progression.

 

[Big Sammich]

Yeah that's why I said "almost impossible", You don't need much of a 'skill' to tell which cultist is real, that's the problem that's why he's easy, real one is darker and always spawns on top or right depending on where you are, and you get a plenty of time to attack.

You don't even need to know about top or left thing, once you notice that the real one is always darker it's so easy to avoid the dragon with how much time he gives you

I was thinking a minor detail of his(real one's) sprite would be different so it's harder to spot and you'd get a shorter time to attack before he summons a dragon, that way you'd actually need skill to avoid dragons, unlike current cultist most people will mess up at least once in fights, more skilled you are less dragons you'd have to deal with and if you're like a master at this fight you'd avoid all the dragons.

but to be honest I'd be fine with TurboClide's idea too, hitting correct cultist will be less rewarding(dragons spawn but less clones attack you) because it's easy do but most importantly it fixes the endgame progression.

Well, that minor difference does already exist... there's a single pixel in his eye that's different. If you're suggesting removing the lighting inconsistencies and making it so that seeing that pixel is the only way to tell, then yes, I would support that. I'm just against the idea of making them all identical. Shortening the summon time isn't bad, either.