NPCs & Enemies Most invasions should end if all players are dead.

[11clock]

Currently, any bosses in the game will despawn if all of the players fighting it have died. Invasions, on the other hand, stick around. This makes invasions impossible to lose, and assuming you are fighting at the base and playing on Softcore/Classic, there is no real penalty for dying other than annoyance. Also, say you just entered hardmode and had bad RNG and the pirates decided to show up while you were still in prehardmode gear. Now you will basically be spawnkilled over and over until you manage to kill all of the pirates.

What can fix the described issues above is to prematurely end the invasion if all players on the map are dead (counting as a "loss" thus not unlocking the content behind it like the Goblin Tinkerer). The only invasions that wouldn't end with this criteria would be the holiday moon events, since those are on a timer and losing time on death is enough of a penalty already.

Another idea is to instead have invasions end at the end of the day (again counting as a "loss"), like how the moon events end at the end of the night.

EDIT: I guess I should throw this in as well. Add a time limit to the Celestial Invasion. Say... a full in-game day (24 IRL minutes)? So that this event also has a lose condition.

 

[ItsFyn]

I think the punishment outside of not being able to lose comes from the fact that the invasions often come when they're not expected. As a result, you don't have time to prepare for the invasion, and if you're playing with mediumcore & above characters, you'll have a very rough time without proper preparation. As a softcore character, the main inconvenience just comes from the fact that you may potentially have multiple NPCs die, which may lead to housing problems, provided you don't already have enough housing for everyone. I also don't think the celestial invasion should have a timer either. Treating each pillar as a boss in themselves, and the consistent travelling across the world players may have to do if they die, lead me to believe it wouldn't be good. That said, I can see the benefits of incorporating some form of lose condition, but I just don't think it's necessary.

 

[11clock]

I think the punishment outside of not being able to lose comes from the fact that the invasions often come when they're not expected. As a result, you don't have time to prepare for the invasion, and if you're playing with mediumcore & above characters, you'll have a very rough time without proper preparation. As a softcore character, the main inconvenience just comes from the fact that you may potentially have multiple NPCs die, which may lead to housing problems, provided you don't already have enough housing for everyone. I also don't think the celestial invasion should have a timer either. Treating each pillar as a boss in themselves, and the consistent travelling across the world players may have to do if they die, lead me to believe it wouldn't be good. That said, I can see the benefits of incorporating some form of lose condition, but I just don't think it's necessary.

As I said, making a lose condition helps with those who get an invasion without being prepared for it by despawning the event sooner, instead of them getting repeatedly spawn killed for a long while until the event eventually ends. If they aren't prepared for it, then they would just get killed quickly once and then the invasion will immediately leave to return later for you to try again hopefully with better gear. Bosses already behave in this manner.

 

[ItsFyn]

As I said, making a lose condition helps with those who get an invasion without being prepared for it by despawning the event sooner, instead of them getting repeatedly spawn killed for a long while until the event eventually ends. If they aren't prepared for it, then they would just get killed quickly once and then the invasion will immediately leave to return later for you to try again hopefully with better gear. Bosses already behave in this manner.

Yeah, that's sensible, but I think the issue arises in the nature of the events, with the swarms of enemies. I think they'd have to rebalance the events and provide an easier way to summon them for players who're struggling. These events don't spawn until you're at least decently ready, such as when goblins naturally arrive during pre-hardmode, or pirates in hardmode. Part of the consistent challenge is surviving with the gear you have.

 

[11clock]

Yeah, that's sensible, but I think the issue arises in the nature of the events, with the swarms of enemies. I think they'd have to rebalance the events and provide an easier way to summon them for players who're struggling. These events don't spawn until you're at least decently ready, such as when goblins naturally arrive during pre-hardmode, or pirates in hardmode. Part of the consistent challenge is surviving with the gear you have.

The Pirates can spawn whenever as soon as hardmode starts, and after struggling to fight them off in mythril armor and adamantite weapons, I cannot imagine what kind of hell this event would be if you just so happen to get a pirate invasion on the first day of hardmode with prehardmode gear. Maybe they could prevent this invasion from occurring until you either kill Queen Slime or a mech boss?

As for easier ways of summoning them, they could lower the cost of making a goblin battle standard, and make a means to craft a pirate map.

 

[ItsFyn]

The Pirates can spawn whenever as soon as hardmode starts, and after struggling to fight them off in mythril armor and adamantite weapons, I cannot imagine what kind of hell this event would be if you just so happen to get a pirate invasion on the first day of hardmode with prehardmode gear. Maybe they could prevent this invasion from occurring until you either kill Queen Slime or a mech boss?

As for easier ways of summoning them, they could lower the cost of making a goblin battle standard, and make a means to craft a pirate map.

They all sound like really good ideas. They'd definitely help to get rid of the issues you mentioned. I think post mech bosses should mean that the majority of players are ready for the pirate invasion.

 

[Sora_92]

Actually, both pirates and the goblins have a condition.

Goblins spawn after at least one shadow orb/crimson heart is smashed.
Now with meteorite only falling after EoW/BoC is down, the only benefit of smashing these early is getting a gun (and thus arms dealer moves in too) and potencially something else useful. At the cost of you might get goblins. And they can be tough early game.
Later though they aren't a real threat, just incredibly annoying, because goblin peons dismantle doors, so it messes up your whole town, and you have to put them back, and reassign the NPCs...

Pirates can spawn on their own once at least one semon altar/crimson altar is smashed.
While lots of people tend to do that first in hardmode, it would be a lot wiser to try to gear up regarding weapons first. there are several weapons you can craft or aquire early hardmode without the need of hardmode ores. you can get a shotgun if you're ranged, or any (or all 3) magic tomes if you're a mage, once you found the wizard and farmed a bit for things. Yes, it's tough, but less tough than the pirates in pre-hardmode gear. Once you have some better weapons, you can go for the altars if you want, and while you wouldn't have hardmode armor yet until you mine some of the ores, still, you would at least have better weapons.

Some thing in the game are related to your defense (e.g. one of the conditions of EoC to spawn on its own is to have somewhat good defense). if you would go for the armor first, not the weapons, you would have EoC constantly harassing you, and you wouldn't really stand a chance against it with let's say a wooden sword...

Point being, usually the wise choice is to get better weapons first, and get the better armor only after.

It is true though that many players, and especially newbies wouldn't necessarily know that. (even with the ridicolous amount of bars needed for metal armors, while crafting a sword or bow requires much less, which might would try to suggest getting a better weapon first)
So, yeah, this could be noted somewhere, to avoid suffering from goblins and pirates, and other things. But they do have a condition.

 

[ItsFyn]

Actually, both pirates and the goblins have a condition.

Goblins spawn after at least one shadow orb/crimson heart is smashed.
Now with meteorite only falling after EoW/BoC is down, the only benefit of smashing these early is getting a gun (and thus arms dealer moves in too) and potencially something else useful. At the cost of you might get goblins. And they can be tough early game.
Later though they aren't a real threat, just incredibly annoying, because goblin peons dismantle doors, so it messes up your whole town, and you have to put them back, and reassign the NPCs...

Pirates can spawn on their own once at least one semon altar/crimson altar is smashed.
While lots of people tend to do that first in hardmode, it would be a lot wiser to try to gear up regarding weapons first. there are several weapons you can craft or aquire early hardmode without the need of hardmode ores. you can get a shotgun if you're ranged, or any (or all 3) magic tomes if you're a mage, once you found the wizard and farmed a bit for things. Yes, it's tough, but less tough than the pirates in pre-hardmode gear. Once you have some better weapons, you can go for the altars if you want, and while you wouldn't have hardmode armor yet until you mine some of the ores, still, you would at least have better weapons.

Some thing in the game are related to your defense (e.g. one of the conditions of EoC to spawn on its own is to have somewhat good defense). if you would go for the armor first, not the weapons, you would have EoC constantly harassing you, and you wouldn't really stand a chance against it with let's say a wooden sword...

Point being, usually the wise choice is to get better weapons first, and get the better armor only after.

It is true though that many players, and especially newbies wouldn't necessarily know that. (even with the ridicolous amount of bars needed for metal armors, while crafting a sword or bow requires much less, which might would try to suggest getting a better weapon first)
So, yeah, this could be noted somewhere, to avoid suffering from goblins and pirates, and other things. But they do have a condition.

Interesting, I never knew! (At least when it comes to pirates) That aside, I still think that's a tad too early for pirates, haha.

 

[Travlordian01⚡️]

Actually, both pirates and the goblins have a condition.

Goblins spawn after at least one shadow orb/crimson heart is smashed.
Now with meteorite only falling after EoW/BoC is down, the only benefit of smashing these early is getting a gun (and thus arms dealer moves in too) and potencially something else useful. At the cost of you might get goblins. And they can be tough early game.
Later though they aren't a real threat, just incredibly annoying, because goblin peons dismantle doors, so it messes up your whole town, and you have to put them back, and reassign the NPCs...

Pirates can spawn on their own once at least one semon altar/crimson altar is smashed.
While lots of people tend to do that first in hardmode, it would be a lot wiser to try to gear up regarding weapons first. there are several weapons you can craft or aquire early hardmode without the need of hardmode ores. you can get a shotgun if you're ranged, or any (or all 3) magic tomes if you're a mage, once you found the wizard and farmed a bit for things. Yes, it's tough, but less tough than the pirates in pre-hardmode gear. Once you have some better weapons, you can go for the altars if you want, and while you wouldn't have hardmode armor yet until you mine some of the ores, still, you would at least have better weapons.

Some thing in the game are related to your defense (e.g. one of the conditions of EoC to spawn on its own is to have somewhat good defense). if you would go for the armor first, not the weapons, you would have EoC constantly harassing you, and you wouldn't really stand a chance against it with let's say a wooden sword...

Point being, usually the wise choice is to get better weapons first, and get the better armor only after.

It is true though that many players, and especially newbies wouldn't necessarily know that. (even with the ridicolous amount of bars needed for metal armors, while crafting a sword or bow requires much less, which might would try to suggest getting a better weapon first)
So, yeah, this could be noted somewhere, to avoid suffering from goblins and pirates, and other things. But they do have a condition.

Goblins also can’t spawn until you have over 200 or 220 health I think.

 

[SauceLord88]

Goblins also can’t spawn until you have over 200 or 220 health I think.

Actually, the game prevents you from using the Goblin Battle Standard if you don’t have at least 200 health.

 

[Sora_92]

Yeah, maybe you need more HP too, I don't remember that. but I'm sure you need to smash some orbs/hearts for goblin invasion to spawn on its own.


By the way - this is half-off topic, but related -, while these can be tough if you don't have adequate gear, they can be quite annoying later too. Goblins would dismantle doors, and it's a pain to place them back, and reassign everyone who moved away.

and pirates are especially deadly on town NPCs. they can easily massacre your whole town, which is a pain...
They normally attack the morning, so some NPCs might be just happily walking around their house at that time, only to get cut to tiny little pieces by 23 pirate corsairs. And those who were in the house, or managed to run there quick enough, sometimes arbitrarily open the door. Or maybe it's related to pets, I don't know (pets have a tendency to quite often stand at the door, blocking them from you could close them. and then, I was fighting these pirates earlier, at some point, the guide thought it looks boring I try to use flamelash to hit and burn the pirate horde on the other side of the door, and walked there and opened the door on them... just why?! I mean, he's a notorious door opener, but I remember before, if he was housed in a room that has another room next to it, he's usually not freaked out from enemies at the door. now he did. and then so did the golfer in the neighbor house, for absolutely no apparent reason. Why would they do thins?!

Town NPCs have an awful AI regarding enemies, and invasions happen around towns (in fact, most of them have the condition that they only start nearby a town NPC?). I read there is some item that can raise the def and attack of town NPCs, but I didn't managed to fish that up yet. And even then, they just have a bad AI regarding their behavior when monsters are nearby. this is normally fine, since if it's a town, monster won't spawn there, but invasions make them behave stupid, often resulting in tons of casualties...


It would be nice, if there would be some option to

- turn off goblin peons' abbility to dismantle doors. it's largely more an annoyance than an actual threat, IMO.

- make town NPCs invulnerable to monster attacks and unable to drown. invasions can be tough, it would be nice, if you could just ignore the town NPCs meanwhile. I want to protect them, but that can make invasions a lot tougher. Also, they seems to like to try to walk to their new place when you reassign them. sometimes they teleport there, but other times they try to walk there. only for you to see "Mario the painter was slain". Monsters wouldn't spawns if the player is far, and NPCs take no fall dmg. either, but they can drown, and there are usually plenty of ponds (even more, because fishing is much more rewarding now, so you're even more encouraged to make some) and NPCs usually end up in one and drown... even worse if this happens because a goblin dismantled a door, NPCs walked away, and it managed to not get killed by the goblins, decided to teleport to the new place, then when you reassign them, they try to walk back, and end up in a lake as fish food...

 

[ItsFyn]

I've just remembered, you need 2 NPC's near a pylon to be able to teleport there, provided they kill enough NPC's, your pylons are going to be disabled until they move back in too. That'll definitely be a pain if you're used to using them, probably punishment enough.

 

[FantasticFwoosh]

I've had two consecutive master worlds required to be deleted, simply because i was too good at spelunking and was overwhelmed by the goblin army far below par of the required equipment, given the kind of expectation to just gather enough defence & health to prepare to approach any EOW or EOC boss fight caught off guard and annoying arrow projectiles hitting deep so a retort in melee or to cheese from high up on pillars would be pretty difficult.

Going away after a time-out would be very much helpful with a chance to re-appear. I don't figure seeing goblin banners in the backround anywhere prior to their arrival, or smoke from their presumable goblin army camps.

 

[Banmei]

Currently, any bosses in the game will despawn if all of the players fighting it have died. Invasions, on the other hand, stick around. This makes invasions impossible to lose, and assuming you are fighting at the base and playing on Softcore/Classic, there is no real penalty for dying other than annoyance. Also, say you just entered hardmode and had bad RNG and the pirates decided to show up while you were still in prehardmode gear. Now you will basically be spawnkilled over and over until you manage to kill all of the pirates.

What can fix the described issues above is to prematurely end the invasion if all players on the map are dead (counting as a "loss" thus not unlocking the content behind it like the Goblin Tinkerer). The only invasions that wouldn't end with this criteria would be the holiday moon events, since those are on a timer and losing time on death is enough of a penalty already.

Another idea is to instead have invasions end at the end of the day (again counting as a "loss"), like how the moon events end at the end of the night.

EDIT: I guess I should throw this in as well. Add a time limit to the Celestial Invasion. Say... a full in-game day (24 IRL minutes)? So that this event also has a lose condition.

I think this warrants a looking into imo. Worst time I ever had in the game was my underground base shortly after reaching hardmode. I got a goblin invasion. Was fine for the most part except the Summoner kept killing me, or I should say his summons. I would die then respawn at my bed. The summons would get to me sometimes before I even got a chance to re-equip my items. I probably spent close to an hour just dealing with the Goblin Summoner and dying over and over again.

I could have canceled the bed spawn point but all of my gear was in my base and I wasn't about to forage Hardmode/Expert with nothing but copper tools. I don't know what exactly the criteria should be but I think that battle could have ended prematurely. Maybe after 30 deaths or so? Or maybe after 20 minutes of not killing anything and getting killed? Maybe after a certain amount of time has elapsed?

Since then I build differently so this does not occur again. However, someone else could run into the same problem I did.

 

[Ambaire]

Also, say you just entered hardmode and had bad RNG and the pirates decided to show up while you were still in prehardmode gear. Now you will basically be spawnkilled over and over until you manage to kill all of the pirates.

Pirates can't get through blocks (except for the pirate captain's second form). Also, platforms on the inside side of a door prevent the door from being forcibly opened. If you have a decent safe area (and maybe a pylon network), you can still travel around and do stuff and just ignore the pirates until you can deal with them. Also, try digging a 1 block hole to shoot through / put a yo-yo through.

EDIT: I guess I should throw this in as well. Add a time limit to the Celestial Invasion. Say... a full in-game day (24 IRL minutes)? So that this event also has a lose condition.

Uh. No. Just no. It sometimes takes quite a bit longer than that to carefully work through the enemies the first time around, especially on Master.

if you're playing with mediumcore & above characters

Only masochists do this.

I've had two consecutive master worlds required to be deleted, simply because i was too good at spelunking and was overwhelmed by the goblin army far below par of the required equipment

Even on master mode, all you need to kill a goblin invasion is a nice hill and a bunch of grenades. Maybe 3-4 gold worth of them. It's not that hard, really.

 

[11clock]

Pirates can't get through blocks (except for the pirate captain's second form). Also, platforms on the inside side of a door prevent the door from being forcibly opened. If you have a decent safe area (and maybe a pylon network), you can still travel around and do stuff and just ignore the pirates until you can deal with them. Also, try digging a 1 block hole to shoot through / put a yo-yo through.


Uh. No. Just no. It sometimes takes quite a bit longer than that to carefully work through the enemies the first time around, especially on Master.


Only masochists do this.


Even on master mode, all you need to kill a goblin invasion is a nice hill and a bunch of grenades. Maybe 3-4 gold worth of them. It's not that hard, really.

In 1.4, invaders spawn everywhere you have NPCs, so you do not have a safe spot. Pylons are also disabled until invaders are defeated. There is nowhere to run but underground.

There are specific ways to cheese invasions, but players shouldn't be forced to rely on them if they are undergeared. A way for an invasion to be canceled, basically a way for you to "lose," would let players try the invasion again later when they have better gear.

For lunar pillars, perhaps instead of a time limit, the shield resets on a pillar if all players are away from it (aka everyone dies)?

 

[Sora_92]

In 1.4, invaders spawn everywhere you have NPCs, so you do not have a safe spot. Pylons are also disabled until invaders are defeated. There is nowhere to run but underground.

There are specific ways to cheese invasions, but players shouldn't be forced to rely on them if they are undergeared. A way for an invasion to be canceled, basically a way for you to "lose," would let players try the invasion again later when they have better gear.

For lunar pillars, perhaps instead of a time limit, the shield resets on a pillar if all players are away from it (aka everyone dies)?

Eh? please no.

Pillars can be very tough, especially the first time. they will usually kill you a bunch of times until you manage to somehow slowly bring down the shield and defeat them.
I was fighting them just earlier, on normal mode (I can't even quite imagine how it would look on master mode) I was killed by nebulla pillar like 20 times, out of several were spawn kills by nebulla spheres which just go through everything and can't be stopped. good luck dodging them in a 10 x 6 mudbrick hut half-underground, I was foolish enough to set as spawn because it was the closest to the pillar... and then witch doctor was curious what are those things on the other side of the door...? "Abibe the witch doctor was mauled by 3 evolution beasts. and so was the player who just respawned."

Pillars are fine the way they are. They are unlike other invasions anyway, because those usually happen at random, while lunar apocalypse is always started by the player(s), defeating lunatic cultist. You likely wouldn't be that unprepared, if you managed to defeat lunatic cultist, so no real point for that event to be cancelled, IMO.

 

[11clock]

Eh? please no.

Pillars can be very tough, especially the first time. they will usually kill you a bunch of times until you manage to somehow slowly bring down the shield and defeat them.
I was fighting them just earlier, on normal mode (I can't even quite imagine how it would look on master mode) I was killed by nebulla pillar like 20 times, out of several were spawn kills by nebulla spheres which just go through everything and can't be stopped. good luck dodging them in a 10 x 6 mudbrick hut half-underground, I was foolish enough to set as spawn because it was the closest to the pillar... and then witch doctor was curious what are those things on the other side of the door...? "Abibe the witch doctor was mauled by 3 evolution beasts. and so was the player who just respawned."

Pillars are fine the way they are. They are unlike other invasions anyway, because those usually happen at random, while lunar apocalypse is always started by the player(s), defeating lunatic cultist. You likely wouldn't be that unprepared, if you managed to defeat lunatic cultist, so no real point for that event to be cancelled, IMO.

That's the problem, though. You can just keep throwing yourself at the pillar and die repeatedly until it is eventually down. This means that there is no real difficulty to the pillars, since death doesn't set you back at all other than needing to walk back over to it. Perhaps to compensate for the shield being reset is to greatly lower the amount of enemies needed to remove it. And if you don't have the skill to do it, a means to cancel the invasion entirely.

 

[Ambaire]

That's the problem, though. You can just keep throwing yourself at the pillar and die repeatedly until it is eventually down. This means that there is no real difficulty to the pillars, since death doesn't set you back at all other than needing to walk back over to it. Perhaps to compensate for the shield being reset is to greatly lower the amount of enemies needed to remove it. And if you don't have the skill to do it, a means to cancel the invasion entirely.

Please don't ruin this game for the rest of us.

 

[Sora_92]

That's the problem, though. You can just keep throwing yourself at the pillar and die repeatedly until it is eventually down. This means that there is no real difficulty to the pillars, since death doesn't set you back at all other than needing to walk back over to it. Perhaps to compensate for the shield being reset is to greatly lower the amount of enemies needed to remove it. And if you don't have the skill to do it, a means to cancel the invasion entirely.

The penatly is now to have half a bajillion gravestones shattered around the place, you would have to clean up. Even though that's more just an annoyance than actually anything difficult.

Point being, there's nothing wrong with being able to slowly defeat the pillars. In order to defeat them, you still must have to be able to kill lots of lunar creatures, and damage the pillars. and, if you have enough perseverance to keep fighting back even though you were spawn-killed the 3rd time in a row, you might as well deserve those fragments after a half hour suffering, as a sort of gift for not giving up. That's what I think.
The pillars are crazy hard anyway in the same gear you fought lunatic cultist (and probably golem too (lol))

Not to mention, the whole thing is structured that way, that Lunatic cultist --> 4 pillars --> Moon lord is a chain of events, and if you mess up the fight with moon lord, you have to re-do the whole. (if you don't have enough fragments to summon moon lord, but let's be real, the first few times, you probably will use the fragments for weapons right away?) as long as you don't have enough fragments, trying again fighting moon lord (or trying to farm him) means going though the whole event chain again. It's tough already, I think making it any tougher than it is now would be no fun.

However, I do think the pillars' shield resumes, if the game closes (or it was so in the previous version) I know, because first time I faced the pillars, the game crashed randomly one time when I got the shield of one down and nearly defeated it. I had to re-do that pillar again. So, if that's still how it is, if you're a masochist or something, you can try to alt F4 if something killed you at a pillar, and then try that pillar again from zero. If you ask me, it sounds like a pain, but if you want, I think you can try it that way, if you want to suffer, I think.
(but please don't suggest such changes for everyone. because it doesn't sounds fun)