New sentry mechanics didn't live up to my hype.

Yggdrasil

Yggdrasil

Steampunker
I absolutely love the concept. However, I am kinda disappointed that
  1. "increase max number of sentries" accessories don't stack (only 1 additional sentry, 2 sentries max)
  2. "increase max number of sentries" accessories can't be crafted into one at the Tinkerer's workshop
Well okay, maybe that's for balance although it would have been mindblowingly awesome to have that many sentries... However, there is still more!

You see, omitting the new mid-tier items and moving to the final end game, it seems like the effective endresult is I need another accessory in order to use both
Lunar_Portal_Staff.png
and
Rainbow_Crystal_Staff.png
at the same time as I did before for a good year now. Unfortunately, I'm not sure any of the new items fit into a moonlord / endgame gear build. Between movement accessories, the celestial shell and my regular minion accessories I simply can't find another free slot to account for the change. Especially when the only accessory available is the equivialent of a pygmy necklace.
If that is true and there is no endgame item to fill the newly created gap for summoners then my summoner essentially got nerfed. <- And that's where the hype ends for me.

Please tell me I am wrong with this :(
 
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Yggdrasil said:
I absolutely love the concept. However, I am kinda disappointed that
  1. "increase max number of sentries" accessories don't stack (only 1 additional sentry, 2 sentries max)
  2. "increase max number of sentries" accessories can't be crafted into one at the Tinkerer's workshop
Well okay, maybe that's for balance although it would have been mindblowingly awesome to have that many sentries... However, there is still more!

You see, omitting the new mid-tier items and moving to the final end game, it seems like the effective endresult is I need another accessory in order to use both
Lunar_Portal_Staff.png
and
Rainbow_Crystal_Staff.png
at the same time as I did before for a good year now. Unfortunately, I'm not sure any of the new items fit into a moonlord / endgame gear build. Between movement accessories, the celestial shell and my regular minion accessories I simply can't find another free slot to account for the change. Especially when the only accessory available is the equivialent of a pygmy necklace.
If that is true and there is no endgame item to fill the newly created gap for summoners then my summoner essentially got nerfed. <- And that's where the hype ends for me.

Please tell me I am wrong with this :(
Click to expand...

My biggest complaint is why are there 4 new accessories that all do exactly the same thing? It seems extremely odd. If they could be tinkered together it would make a bit of sense, but at the moment, they're just re-skins of the same accessory.

They could easily be made into hybrid items by allowing one to give some melee stats, one to give some ranged stats, etc. I just don't see the point in 4 identical accessories
 
Besides the accessoires, there's also armors sold by the tavernkeeper that increases the amount of sentries.

The reason why the accessoires don't stack, or are combineable, is because it's supposed to be just 1 accessoire, but there are multiple so they can fit for each of the 4 main characters appearing in DD2. and there are more vanity possibilities.

In most cases, with exception of the end-game. there was never a need to have more than 1 sentry at a time. Hence why it shouldn't affect the gameplay progression that much.

Though, personally, having stardust armor giving one extra sentry would be a neat fix for this.
 
The fact is I even still used the frost hydra in combination with stardust armor. Being down 2 sentries based on something that came along as a buff for summoners feels awful. I imagine it will feel even awfuller if you play a new summoner now. Pregessing through the tiers and bosses just to lose your increased sentry count somewhere along the road to the best gear available.

Regardless of whether that bonus was necessary, you could go for it if you wanted to and enjoy yourself. Well not anymore.

Yeah perhaps they should update all summoner armors beyond those you get for the new event. Or, they could create a sentry accessory comparable in power to the papyrus scarab. Maybe even make those two combinable. No idea how to properly fix this mess :(
 
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Yggdrasil said:
The fact is I even still used the frost hydra in combination with stardust armor. Being down 2 sentries based on something that came along as a buff for summoners feels awful. I imagine it will feel even awfuller if you play a new summoner now. Pregessing through the tiers and bosses just to lose your increased sentry count somewhere along the road to the best gear available.
Click to expand...
From what I recall, in my entire summoners run, I've only made use of the Spider Queen sentry, simply because the Frost Hydra is obtained from an rather incredibely rare drop, and because the other two sentries are already end-game tier. There simply wasn't more than one needed during the whole progression.
And now you can get sentries in pre-hardmode. Personally I've never needed more than one at a time.

The only time where I may have needed multiple sentries were during invasions. I've not tested out how that will work. but the ability to direct your summons to attack a chosen enemy sure would rebalance that.

Also, you've just made rather good suggestions to fix it.
 
Depends on what you call necessary. If somebody manages a full NO-ARMOR playthrough that goes to proof nothing is really necessary. However, having an ever groing army of minions and awesome (but rare) sentries has always been what draws me to the summoner class. It's integral part of it's gameplay and absolutely necessary for the fun imo.

Additionaly, as a pure sommoner, managing a bunch of sentries used to be the only thing you could actively do for your dps. And considering the entire final 3rd of the game consists of nothing but invasions and uber-bosses I would pretty much say stacking up sentries alongside your minions is "necessary". Granted you can somewhat manage your minions instead now.
However, the thing about that is I'm not sure how usefull it's gonna be. During an invasion I don't really care what they attack as long as they keep dealing damage. During a boss fight they don't really have much of a choice. In either case, you can only manage them by holding their summon item which is bad for 2 reasons:
1) What if you mix minions of the same tier so they cover their weaknesses and add their strengths?
2) Pretty sure unloading your inventory full of crystal / chlorophyte bullets with a ranged weapon of your choice does more good than that.


-------------------------------------------------

Another idea to kind of make up for it. Give the dragon an expertmode unique drop (currently doesn't have one in it's bag as the only boss ingame afaik):

Heart of the Dragon
Consumable
Eating it permanently increases your sentry count by one. Can only be used once. Is disabled in normal mode worlds.

(works like
Demon_Heart.png
http://terraria.wiki.gg/Demon_Heart)
 
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Yeah, a bit of a shame the accessories don't stack, but they do stack with the bonus from the armor sets, so you can still have up to five Sentries.
Instead of the eight it should be.
Sure hope it's a bug.
 
Personally I think the biggest issue with these new mechanics is that they are all tied to a single event and seek to closely emulate the DD2 classes rather than fitting into terraria.
As such they made sets of redundant armor and accessories with absolutely no tinkers or value added game play wise.
They should have made each of them provide a different bonus to boost the value for a particular accessory while letting the player know they do not stack, or make a functional upgrade while converting the existing accessories into a vanity role


The next issue to address in this regard is the disconnect between the new sentries and existing ones. If the existing sentries could be used as turrets in the Old Man's army event It would feel more integrated with the rest of the game.

None of the sentry armors actively boosts summoning meaning that a summoner can't run sentries and minions at the same time. This was done because the devs didn't want to deviate from the classes of DD2 but it severely hampers summoners ability to perform.

A lot of this could be fixed to an extent if more of the Tavern keep inventory was opened up by removing some of the redundancy for more conventional Terraria style upgrades.
For instance if the Tavern Keep only offered the first tier of staves but offered an upgrade feature requiring the medal count difference worth of medals that would be a full 8 slots worth of availability. A similar thing could be done with the armors allowing more creative balancing items to be added.

Lastly if the armors added at least one minion capacity they could function more as true hybrids thus providing a more reasonable class balance for the game


In that same spirit it would also seem fair to me if a sentry capacity boost could be given to the late game (post Plantera) conventional summoner armors thus allowing Summoners to have more functionality while not being overly crippled by gear limitations as they are currently compared to other classes.
 
Yggdrasil said:
The fact is I even still used the frost hydra in combination with stardust armor. Being down 2 sentries based on something that came along as a buff for summoners feels awful. I imagine it will feel even awfuller if you play a new summoner now. Pregessing through the tiers and bosses just to lose your increased sentry count somewhere along the road to the best gear available.

Regardless of whether that bonus was necessary, you could go for it if you wanted to and enjoy yourself. Well not anymore.

Yeah perhaps they should update all summoner armors beyond those you get for the new event. Or, they could create a sentry accessory comparable in power to the papyrus scarab. Maybe even make those two combinable. No idea how to properly fix this mess :(
Click to expand...

Maybe have the pygmy necklace and 1 of the new accessories combine, or the papyrus scarab.
 
Could a sentry class be created? Add lower level sentries for early game with armours that increase stats, speed, and/or add extra placements. Add accessories and maybe a post plantera(would help with mobs in dungeon and temple) or end game armour set that turns your character into a sentry, attacks enemies that get close to you.
 
Yggdrasil said:
Unfortunately, I'm not sure any of the new items fit into a moonlord / endgame gear build. Between movement accessories, the celestial shell and my regular minion accessories I simply can't find another free slot to account for the change.
Click to expand...

It heavily depends on how deep you're willing to go. This is the remnants of a multiplayer character that I only just made Spooky armor today:

GPgymcf.png


It works out for me but that's because I swap accessories before summoning in large fights and I swap back to a "combat" setup where I can boost my bow shots. I used to use a Ranger Emblem over the sentry-boosting accessory but I just don't miss it enough, 15% more Tsunami is still 15% more but I still have a very angry Stardust Dragon killing things. As far as I'm concerned, if I can still kill FIshron before he properly enters his third phase, I'm strong enough. If you're using full Stardust Armor and not mixing and matching like I am, you'll be fine.

I'm just happy I can put down two Lunar Portals now. I like lasers.

Friendship ended with Stardust set bonus, Red Riding dress is my new best friend
 
You have a Tsunami but no papyrus scarab? Talk about bad luck :D

Anyway, your post made me look at it again after a good night's sleep.
The upside:
That accessory is not quite as bad as a pygmy necklace. The fact is it is on par with a papyrus scroll even though it has a much lower progress requirement so there is that.

The downside:
I was using a papyrus scroll in addition to my papyrus scarab for the extra minion. If I wasn't, I could have went with any lategame accessory corresponding to the active weapons I use from other classes, i.e.
Fire_Gauntlet.png
,
Sniper_Scope.png
or
Celestial_Emblem.png
. However, with the change I have to skip on each of those just to get my 1.3.3 sentry power back. And that's still a big issue for me.

It's a flat nerf and I don't like it. It wasn't even necessary.
 
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well,

with the new summoner armor that comes with the barkeep, you can just spam down a few lunar portals with rainbow crystals

this sort of trades minions for sentries

so instead of having your damage follow you, you follow your damage

it isn't entirely practical but it's an easy and quick way to do events and bosses thanks to the lunar portal and rainbow's long range and high dps

the high defense and life regen of the armor encourages a sort of "turtle" style, that benefits staying near your sentries

so what they've done is basically split summoner into minion summoners and sentry summoners



useful for normal but the practicality of this in expert is questionable
 
That split was totally unecessary.

So was the ensuing nerf to late game summoner.

It's also odd there are 4 armor sets now which are on par with post moonlord sets but can be obtained directly after defeating golem.
 
Yggdrasil said:
That split was totally unecessary.

So was the ensuing nerf to late game summoner.

It's also odd there are 4 armor sets now which are on par with post moonlord sets but can be obtained directly after defeating golem.
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Well, in terms of defense, yes they're comparable to Moon Lord gear, but they lack the awesome bonuses of said Moon Lord gear.
Being able to place a couple extra Frost Hydras or Lunar Portals just does not match up to Solar's shield, Nebula's buffs, or Vortex's stealth.
Actually, I'd be tempted to say a full Stardust Dragon with some Stardust armor would still be better than a few sentries.
 
Yggdrasil said:
That split was totally unecessary.

So was the ensuing nerf to late game summoner.

It's also odd there are 4 armor sets now which are on par with post moonlord sets but can be obtained directly after defeating golem.
Click to expand...
Are they really on par with the end-game sets?

If you want to benefit from the full set bonus you're forced to use sentries that, at least in the case of the ranger or second melee armor, are inferior to the end-game sentries. On the other hand, if you opt to use the end-game sentries, you're losing out on the full set bonus. Either way, you're at an disadvantage compared to the other sets.
 
The most interesting of them are Valhalla Knight and Red Riding, honestly, and even then I'd rather just stack the breastplates on top of Spooky or Tiki rather than use the whole set.

The important thing is that we have a ton of hybrid summoning armors now. Having a giant cloud of eyeballs is cool and all but considering most of the weapons you want to use alongside summons are guns/bows, having ranged/summon damage armor is huge. I'm more than willing to live with not getting a set bonus if it means I get 15~25% more arrow per arrow or ludicrous amounts of HP regen. I'll still have four or five minions to hit things without a set bonus before other accessories even happen.
 
I'll gladly take the point they are not on par. Just as gladly as I took the point they are from Parpul (that's how I interpreted his post at least).

Which one exactly it is doesn't matter because the bottom line for summoners is the same:
  1. Summoner has been split into minions and sentries.
  2. Consequentially you can't have both at the same time anymore.
=> Summoner as a whole got weaker.

Whether there is an overpowered golem set for sentires or no final tier version for the new sentry summoner subclass at all is a 3rd con in my book in both cases. It's just the icing on the cake either way.

@Agastya
Yes the new cross "class" bonuses for other weapons are valuable but you could just freely swap accessories at to achieve the same before. If anything, that playstyle took a hit as well because you now need an additional slot for a sentry accessory which previously didn't exist and also wasn't required to have 2 or 3 sentries.
 
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The sentry changes feel like a downgrade / nerf as opposed to an improvement. Sure, sentries weren't that useful for general gameplay, but there's one area where they really shone: Events. Especially Pumpkin/Frost Moon. You need the points as quickly as possible and the sentries help you get it.

Many changes since 1.3 seem specifically focused on neutering strategies for these events, sometimes with the side-effect (or intention) of neutering boss strategies as well. Can't grapple to a spike, reduced trap effectiveness and now sentry limits. A bit disappointing. Probably other strategies I've forgotten about that were nerfed as well.
 
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