Game Mechanics On the issue of social accessory slots in 1.4

[Sora_92]

Yeah, like you said - 10 slots are more easily abusable than 5. So right now, with both those suggestions in mind, we'll see if the devs take notice of them and choose one (because they probably won't compromise both, especially with their opinion of abusability).

Well, yes.
There is no perfect solution (or I don't know what it would be), but while abuseable to some extent, I think the 3 columns structure could be a win-win.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

I don't understand the interest in over-complicating it.

Just return it back to the way it was. The players who care about using it as "intended" will only use it as intended. Power users like me will go back to using them the way we used to as a mixture of vanity and functional slots.

It was not broken. It did not need fixing, it doesn't need a revamp.

It either just needs to be reverted or properly replaced with a loadout system, and the former is much less effort than the latter.

 

[Kardfogu]

I don't understand the interest in over-complicating it.

Just return it back to the way it was. The players who care about using it as "intended" will only use it as intended. Power users like me will go back to using them the way we used to as a mixture of vanity and functional slots.

It was not broken. It did not need fixing, it doesn't need a revamp.

It either just needs to be reverted or properly replaced with a loadout system, and the former is much less effort than the latter.

My favourite.
I understand the point of the rest of the people here too, but the vanity slots were actually quite good for both at the same time.
Mind it, combat accessories - unlike mobility ones - rarely if ever have a sprite in the game world.

Anyways, here's an anecdote:

I was fishing - my friend needs the Steam achievement, I already done that, but heck, let's help him - and I just managed to totally legally finish an Angler Tackle Bag and I by accident had an angler earring remaining - to think about it, an earring, that's not too manly, that angler boy must have serious problems with his identity, he's too young to have an identity crisis! - and I decided to use both.
I right clicked on the tackle bag.
I right clicked on the earring.
It took me a couple of minutes to start swearing when my fishing line broke.
You guessed it. The earring replaced the tacklebag on my character and the tackle bag was thrown back into my inventory.

So yeah, accessory change right now is in our veins, it is a specific movement that our muscles have learned and now that muscle memory fails us, because the user interface just got a lot less friendly.

 

[Tripoli]

Not going to quote exact lines, but here are my thoughts on subject matter so far:

@darthmorf, with all due respect, i think others already explained to you why "it wasn't intented" is a poor justification to remove feature 10 years after the fact. I do understand you weren't involved with this though. As for playtesting, here are my results. Or rather list of Accessories that firmly fell victim to this social slot curse:
— All emblems. Playing on Expert i used to carry class-related ones in spare slots just in case, but now i take them only in case of particularly hard Boss fights
— Star Veil. Yep. It was tied with Greedy Ring in my 1.3. character inventory, but now i can't swap Greedy Ring out, so Star Veil goes to the chest, never to be taken again
— Shining Stone. Accessory that allows you to retreat to safer spot and heal up. I simply don't use it anymore.
— could have added Frozen Turtleshell as well, but it gets new visible thinker in 1.4., so it's saved

@Sora_92 I will probably repeat myself, but i don't see why "invalidating vanity intention" should be a reason to search for overcomplicated solutions. Because again, 1.3. actually gave you an option to use Vanity slots as intended and swap accessories with "quick swap from inventory" mechanic, that, apparently, fell victim to some sort of playtesting as well. I kind of can see why it was changed — cycling accessories may have been regarded as counterintuitive. I, for example, never used it. But now we have nothing to fill this void.

Edit: By the way..... in another thread @Leinfors told me that at some time in the past he tried to pitch an idea for a full-scale load-out swap system, that was disregarded due to complexity. What if i told you that it actually does exist in 1.4 due to an oversight, no less. There are these mannequins that now behave as container-like showcases for not only armor but accessories as well. Guess what — THEY ACCEPT INVISIBLE ACCESSORIES. Now increase number of accessory slots on mannequin from 5 to 7 to accomodate Expert and Master players, slap a right-click option on top of that and you have very convenient load-out swap system allowing player to not only adapt for situational changes (that's what quickswap we're discussing should be for), but to quickly change his entire class without hassle of going through chests.

@Kardfogu, i kind of disagree with implications of your take on inventory being the same for 5000+ items. Managing it is a nuisance, but not because of 40 items limit. Playing the game for many years i can identify several bottlenecks in inventory and storage management:

Poor load-up management
I.e. general subject of this thread. The issue manifests itself only in 1.4, as two mechanics that mitigated it were crippled.

Inventory sometimes (events and extensive digging) fills up more quickly than it should
Mitigated by Void Vault. Yep, you have to keep it clean, but i don't see a way to solve it.
Btw banners imo are a complete red herring. I recently needed only six chests to store all my unused ones from 1.3 world and the maximum requirement for 99 of each is eight chests. If i were to design it from scratch, however, i would probably tie them in with new Bestiary system by making some sort of currency (or rather killed mobs score, that is currently world specific, but maybe should be player specific instead) that you can craft respective banner with, instead of just getting it right into your inventory.

Hotbar behaviour
I never knew what "lock hotbar" is for, but recently found out that it merely prevents hotbar from being clicked outside of inventory. Frankly i don't see why it isn't a default behaviour, since there is very little utility in clicking on a thing already accessible with hotkeys. However, what "lock hotbar", despite of its name, doesn't do is it:
— doesn't prevent random items from getting there. They go right into it even if the rest of inventory is empty;
— doesn't allow, if turned off, to remove said items out with "quick stock" button, which in essence means that items on hotbar always behave like favourited.
Btw, i just checked and "random items" mentioned in first bullet actually behave randomly. Although not so "randomly" — it seems to me that whether the item will go into inventory or right to the hotbar depends on whether it can be used on mouse click. So weapon goes there first, while piece of armor doesn't, which is understandable. However hotbar also gets health potions that are now covered by H hotkey and even Fallen stars, because they also have this meaningless Use animation.

Counterintuitive sorting mechanic
To put it simply i have absolutely no idea what it does to items belonging to one group.

Possible unexpected issue related to 1.4 Piggy Bank overhaul
It's not a problem for me personally, but i've seen report that auto-stock to Piggy Bank (now you can store coins without actually opening it) messes up with how some players used it pre-1.4. Particular report noted that now it gets filled with stacks of wood and dirt because player in question kept some of it there just in case.

Edit: Absence of hotkeys for frequently used things
Not exactly related to inventory, but some additional hotkeys are asking to be implemented. Auto-buff was a great thing, we need more of it.

Complete absense of visual cues
That's the biggest one, as it greatly amplifies aforementioned and other problems. To explain what's going on i will now commit a blasphemy and say that yesterday i fired up my old Starbound save. And i see that many years after, devs and community should learn a thing or two from it.

So, on the left is Terraria. UI scaling is set to 100%, but i actually play windowed mode with 80%. I have to use for a time being, since Mac is not fully supported for now and my framerate is abysmal. On the right is Starbound. UI scaling is again 100%. As you can see, inventory grid in Starbound is smaller than Chest grid in Terraria. However, Starbound has these bulky item icons, more easily readable font (special issue for me due to 80% scaling) and coloured borders. I can tell you about the latter one in detail — i couldn't care less about "sort inventory" feature in Terraria, since it doesn't sort it the way i want anyway, yet i repeatedly click on this button just because it flashes with coloured background. I want this background to always be there though, as Terrarian inventory really tests limits of my sight in times. Now i don't know what those borders signify exactly in Starbound, yet it's not a big problem to figure out, since stuff like building blocks goes into another screen of inventory anyway, as if it were 4 separate themed Void bags avaliable in one click. And did i mention that you can move inventory to the side and continue doing whatever you were doing, as it also doesn't have auto-pause?

Don't get me wrong though, i think if Terraria UI and inventory were bad, they would have been scraped long before. It's actually good enough. But only on paper. In an unrelated thread i covered the idea that Terrarian UI greatly amplifies fast-pased nature of the game. Yet because of this UI-gameplay relationship aforementioned things become detriment. Terrarian UI (and by extension storage management), as it is, could work without much of a problem, if you imagine likes of it in Minecraft, Starbound, or hey — Terraria itself with auto-pause turned on. But Terraria as it is meant to be played is a game where you may have 1 IRL minute (or even less) to switch from building, fishing or other meditative activities to fighting hordes of mobs. And you better be prepared or have a way to prepare yourself quickly.

 

[Kardfogu]

@Kardfogu, i kind of disagree with implications of your take on inventory being the same for 5000+ items. Managing it is a nuisance, but not because of 40 items limit.

Inventory sometimes (events and extensive digging) fills up more quickly than it should

You said, you kind of disagree, then you repeat the exact same thing I said. Ok.

The important thing is, yes, we agree. The limit of 40 in situations where 100+ different type of items drop or get mined in 5 minutes and the same 100+ different items keep recurring, filling the inventory up within a minute or less.
Most of them is trash or otherwise useful items you don't want.

In regard of boss and event drops. I'd remove every single weapon drop. Weapons can't stack in inventory. Terraria has a working crafting system, the bosses could instead drop stacking weapon parts or boss-specific metals, materials that stack.
Not different ones, most bosses have themed weapons. Queen Bee already does this to an extent, drops Bee Wax used to craft a weapon and armor set. It would be logical that the Bee Keeper, the Bee Gun, the Bee's Knees would be all crafted from Wax. Vanity? Craft from the boss-specific metal/material. See? Easy to clear a drop table, but Relogic is uninterested in that for some reason I have yet to understand.

Banners are also a pain, again, I too would rework that using the Bestiary system to spare item space.

 

[Tripoli]

You said, you kind of disagree, then you repeat the exact same thing I said.

That's a miscommunication on my part. What i was thinking about when i was writing it is that there are 5% of situations where 15-20 additional slots would make a difference, because those mobs drop so many items you have to make two hauls from arena to your base instead of one. Same with digging. Again, Void Vault helps if you keep it clear.
Edit: and just to be clear — it's not nearly the worst issue to me, as it might be to you, judging by your posts. Inventory generally being hard to navigate is a more pressing one.

The important thing is, yes, we agree. The limit of 40 in situations where 100+ different type of items drop or get mined in 5 minutes and the same 100+ different items keep recurring, filling the inventory up within a minute or less.
Most of them is trash or otherwise useful items you don't want.

Exactly.

In regard of boss and event drops. I'd remove every single weapon drop. Weapons can't stack in inventory. Terraria has a working crafting system, the bosses could instead drop stacking weapon parts or boss-specific metals, materials that stack.

That's a radical solution indeed, but on the other hand this system is not limited to Queen Bee. EoC, EoW/BoC, Mech Bosses do the same thing. However it's also worth mentioning that if inventory interaction during mass Boss farming is your issue (as that's the only thing that can be solved by your idea, i would imagine), then Relogic actually has you covered with Treasure Bags. I have some of them just laying around stacked on each other. So, maybe they should be used instead as a "convenient boss drop".

 

[Kardfogu]

That's a miscommunication on my part. What i was thinking about when i was writing it is that there are 5% of situations where 15-20 additional slots would make a difference, because those mobs drop so many items you have to make two hauls from arena to your base instead of one. Same with digging. Again, Void Vault helps if you keep it clear.

Exactly.

That's a radical solution indeed, but on the other hand this system is not limited to Queen Bee. EoC, EoW/BoC, Mech Bosses do the same thing. However it's also worth mentioning that if inventory interaction during mass Boss farming is your issue (as that's the only thing that can be solved by your idea, i would imagine), then Relogic actually has you covered with Treasure Bags. I have some of them just laying around stacked on each other. So, maybe they should be used instead as a "convenient boss drop".

Mass boss farming is more like a long term warehouse problem, but in general when I reach the point at which I get to kill a boss, I often go for a specific weapon as well from it.

However, it is absolutely correct, that loot bags from the bosses are often useful for storing excess loot once we have the item we hunt for.

 

[smeagolheart]

The question of why do only some items have a physical representation leads to a curious conclusion.

Could a vanity graphical representation be added for all items? Yes this COULD be added. It would require a tremendous amount of graphics work and totally wouldn't be worth the cost.

But if time and expenses were not a real concern, there's no reason gameplay wise why this couldn't happen. Then you could let every item work in either a vanity or an accessory slot like before.

Because time and budget ARE concerns why not let every item go back to be allowed in a vanity slot like 1.3?

Why punish players since graphics aren't being made for every item??

 

[Tripoli]

Could a vanity graphical representation be added for all items?

No. See, i like the way you think, and i also approached this issue with this thought in mind — like "devs certainly can just make graphics for every thing given time". But now imagine graphics for Aglet. Or Depth Meter. Or Tally Counter. Or Bezoar. Especially Bezoar. You got the idea.

 

[WVMtnBiker]

I started a thread in Equipment Suggestions that I hoped would help solve this problem. Inventory management is tedious and time-consuming enough without now having to keep and find accessories for swapping in a full inventory or summonable chest.

My idea for a solution, if we’re going to have to keep these items in inventory or portable chests, PLEASE implement a load-out system that can assign them to specific accessory slots, with hotkey assignable buttons near the accessory slots. We could have several load-outs, (such as summoner, melee, ranged, etc.) and keep the assigned accessories in a designated permanent chest, inventory, or any of the portables (piggy bank, safe, forge, or void vault).

I think that even with being able to use vanity slots as quick swap storage, which only allow swapping one at a time anyway, load-outs would STILL be a huge QoL addition to the game. We could quick swap entire armor and accessory sets for hot-swapping during a hard fight with a simple key press.

You could even make vanity and dye load-outs, too, so you could easily change your look with a single button or hot key.

If we couldn’t get that in the vanilla game, I’d definitely use a mod that implemented it.

 

[Kardfogu]

If we couldn’t get that in the vanilla game, I’d definitely use a mod that implemented it.

We will. An actual, useful loadout system is something Relogic won't implement for years.
(If you can't tell, I'm taking potshots at Journey's End not being the final update, Relogic is a single-game company right now as Overworld didn't work out as expected.)
Adding 8 damage on top of the SDMG and decreasing the rate at which it eats ammo took them 5 years along with replacing a crappy firework launcher with an okay-ish firework launcher.
5 years.
Imagine their (don't forget, this game uses XNA libraries) programmers implementing a new user interface. I'd expect it to take 10 years!

TModLoader, is the hero we need right now...

 

[smeagolheart]

No. See, i like the way you think, and i also approached this issue with this thought in mind — like "devs certainly can just make graphics for every thing given time". But now imagine graphics for Aglet. Or Depth Meter. Or Tally Counter. Or Bezoar. Especially Bezoar. You got the idea.

Yes, the beozar could be a small green rock, right, what's the prob.

How are you "using" it or anything else in game in the accessory slot otherwise? Anything that you can use can or should exist, right? Anything that exists that you can use should be able to be represented by graphics. Maybe it might make sense to add a chain, then resprite it. It wouldn't be worth it but again everything should exist and be able to be in the vanity slot.

Again, it *could* exist.

 

[Tripoli]

PLEASE implement a load-out system that can assign them to specific accessory slots, with hotkey assignable buttons near the accessory slots.

This is never going to happen, i'm telling you. What could happen however is they can better accomodate mannequins to serve this purpose.

(don't forget, this game uses XNA libraries)

Is it a complete load of pg-13? I clearly see they have some struggles with it, but then i'm not programmer and don't understand what exactly going on. Although it's also clear to me that they didn't spent 5 years just rebalancing weapons. We wouldn't have official balance thread if it was the case.

 

[Nekohime]

This is why I like potions of return. Incredibly useful for returning to base swapping equipment, storing blocks items etc. and then returning to were you were in the game. I dont even use the mirror anymore. Sure they late pre-hardmode (require obsidifish to craft) but are well worth the investment.

 

[BlueCorvid]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't a better* solution than returning things to the way they were be to give often-swapped accessories an appearance on the character?

*better, not necessarily easier

It was always cheaty, not "a creative use of the item slots." I'm glad it's fixed, tbh.

 

[Lord Ecramox the Almighty]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't a better* solution than returning things to the way they were be to give often-swapped accessories an appearance on the character?

*better, not necessarily easier

It was always cheaty, not "a creative use of the item slots." I'm glad it's fixed, tbh.

The thing is, not everyone agrees with this. With something like this, people who want the extra accessory slots should be able to use them as they have become an integral part of the game for many. For people who agree with you that it's cheaty, then it's easy to not use them.

 

[BlueCorvid]

The thing is, not everyone agrees with this. With something like this, people who want the extra accessory slots should be able to use them as they have become an integral part of the game for many. For people who agree with you that it's cheaty, then it's easy to not use them.

You don't have to tell me that not everybody agrees with this, I'm here on this thread, aren't I?

Anyway, I disagree. It's pretty clear to me that that's never what those slots were for. I used them that way too, in the past -- when I updated to 1.4 and realized I couldn't use them anymore, my thought was, "Oh, that makes sense." It's inconvenient, yes, but I don't think it added substantially to the game the way something like hoiks (which were mentioned earlier) do.

I genuinely don't see how having extra inventory space for a couple of accessories is "an integral part of the game for many," though. I know it's more convenient to be able to have them quickly at hand to swap into the right slots, but I can't see the functionality lost with the way things are.

On the topic of inventory favoriting, could it change things if we could favorite an inventory slot itself instead of the object in it? I usually use them for swapping armor (for building or fishing usually) where it's inconvenient to have the swapped-in equipment suddenly unfavorited, but might it work for accessories?

 

[Tripoli]

Anyway, I disagree. It's pretty clear to me that that's never what those slots were for.

I used them that way too, in the past

And i can tell you exactly why you did it despite it being "clear". Nobody stopped you or even told you "no, you're wrong" in 9 years, since social armors were introduced. And they were introduced already with a quickswap AND a strong implication to use it because of hardmode helmet-bonus armors.

my thought was, "Oh, that makes sense."

My was "it doesn't make any of it", but you probably have seen my posts already.

It's inconvenient, yes, but I don't think it added substantially to the game the way something like hoiks (which were mentioned earlier) do.

No, it was 9-year old QoL feature that all of the sudden was declared non-intentional with some weird suggestions that it was "cheaty", even though it doesn't fall into "cheats" category by definition.

I can't see the functionality lost with the way things are.

I don't use certain accessories anymore. With new mechanic they just fell below usability threshold for me. Honestly it's like going back in time to that game version (sadly can't recall number) where B hotkey didn't took non-expired buffs into account, so you HAD to chug those bottles manually.

 

[Piterros990]

I can't see the functionality lost with the way things are.

We have already described it in too much detail, if you need a repeat here it is:

There are many accessories that you used to quick-swap often. All the building tools, which you have up to 4 of (until you combine them, which is up to luck, but there is also Chisel), different emblems, immunity accessories (like Bezoar or Nazar). And if wouldn't be much of a problem, but most of the time, if I want to build stuff, I swap building accessories with, for example, an emblem - items like Worm Scarf, shield, boots, wings, all of them have graphics, so you could put them into vanity, but I want to use their effects because they are just overall useful. On the other hand, you don't need an emblem while building - but you have to put it back into inventory while swapping because it has no graphic.

On the other hand, it doesn't solve the problem of exploiting extra slots almost AT ALL. Literally just checked, out of 62 accessories (I summed the amount of those found in chests and dropped by non-boss enemies, and Nature's Gift because it's another common one, so loot you are able to find anywhere), 35 have a graphic. And from analysing these, many of them you won't encounter everywhere (so for example floating island, surface drops, and Lava Charm). All golden chest drops (both in the underground, as well as in dungeon) can be put into vanity (I'm not counting Lava Charm since it's a very rare drop).

And...

I don't use certain accessories anymore.

This is a big one as well. Bezoar, Nazar, Armor Polish. I used to sometimes put them into vanity slots just so if I see myself poisoned, cursed, or with broken armor, I could quickly double right-click to remove the buff. Now there is no point - these buffs will be gone before you are done swapping. Also it used to be something you could do in the middle of a fight, and now it requires much more concentration if you were to do it during a boss fight for example (due to increased amount of inputs).

It was a feature on the same level as the eternal liquid dupe bug or hoiks. Something that existed for years, and was considered a feature by many. It wasn't even harmful for the game - yet it got "fixed" in a way, which not only doesn't fix the primary problem, but instead takes away the positive sides of it. And not encouraging creativity is NOT an argument - actually the exact opposite. Like I mentioned, you could quick-swap immunity accessories to get rid of a buff, and so I've created a strategy for Queen Bee where I was utilising this ability. Developing a strategy like this is not creative at all, yeah, totally. Same with using different loadouts that you can quickly swap.

 

[smeagolheart]

Okay, it's fine Yeah, the Torch God imo was a very good feature. And it was implemented well, with the triggering mechanism, since I imagine it would be infuriating if it was a forced mechanic that you couldn't turn off. So it's a pure convenience mechanic that makes your life better in pretty much all scenarios.

Just want to comment on the torch God feature. Sure it's good to place torches but if you have to pick any of them back up for any reason you wind up with inventory being clogged with a bunch of different flavors of torches.

You can easily wind up with like 2 jungle torches, 8 hallow torches, 6 snow torches, couple hundred regular torches... And now that accessory slots are restricted those four slots filled with torch flavors hurt even worse.