Game Mechanics On the issue of social accessory slots in 1.4

[BlueCorvid]

TL;DR: In case it wasn't clear, my argument isn't that it's just better now and everyone should stop complaining. It's that while I agree that the new system is an inconvenience, I don't think going back to the old system is the best way to solve the problem.

And i can tell you exactly why you did it despite it being "clear". Nobody stopped you or even told you "no, you're wrong" in 9 years, since social armors were introduced. And they were introduced already with a quickswap AND a strong implication to use it because of hardmode helmet-bonus armors.

I mean, clearly not, actually. I never used them (or thought to use them) to swap hardmode helmets for the bonus, haha! Funnily enough, the "vanity" title implied to me that they were for making your character look nice while still letting you use whatever is most effective. (And how would anyone stop me or tell me I was wrong when I wasn't out here telling people who didn't ask that I used them this way? Maybe if I'd mentioned it, someone would have. I don't know.)

We have already described it in too much detail, if you need a repeat here it is:

Oh, I see. No, I understand all that, but I mostly don't understand how you're losing functionality (as opposed to convenience, which I absolutely agree has been lost) when you can do the same thing from your inventory instead of the vanity slots, and there are more inventory slots now to put them in. (I may just misunderstand, or I might be being overly pedantic, oops.) I'm a builder as well. When I described earlier that I also was using those vanity slots as extra storage, that was what for, usually. That or the Greedy Ring. It doesn't bother me greatly to have them in favorited inventory slots instead, though it's a minor inconvenience to have to re-favorite a swapped item. That's why I was thinking about the ability to favorite inventory slots instead of items themselves, so that we could sort of designate new spaces for those kinds of things.

Literally just checked, out of 62 accessories (I summed the amount of those found in chests and dropped by non-boss enemies, and Nature's Gift because it's another common one, so loot you are able to find anywhere), 35 have a graphic.

If they had graphics, that would solve the problem while keeping everyone happy. The graphic for something like an emblem isn't too intuitive, but it could be as simple as a couple of pixels on the character's chest to represent an amulet or something. (Once again, while I think this is a better solution, I know it isn't easy. And I know it's not likely in vanilla, given the state of the game. I'd be willing to make the art for a mod, though, for what it's worth.)

Bezoar, Nazar, Armor Polish. I used to sometimes put them into vanity slots just so if I see myself poisoned, cursed, or with broken armor, I could quickly double right-click to remove the buff. Now there is no point - these buffs will be gone before you are done swapping. Also it used to be something you could do in the middle of a fight, and now it requires much more concentration if you were to do it during a boss fight for example (due to increased amount of inputs).

They're immunity items, not cure potions. I can see the argument for this being an exploit. I probably would have changed them long ago to prevent this, personally. I never used them this way myself, but honestly I never used any of them at all aside from the Bezoar, and that only in specific situations. As they are, I think they're too underpowered to devote a slot to, even with a modifier, but I think that's a problem with the items themselves. What kind of buff could make them usable, I wonder?

And not encouraging creativity is NOT an argument - actually the exact opposite.

I was thinking of this specific comment, that likened using vanity slots as free storage to creating hoiks:

Hammering blocks so that you travel around a rectangular box at a rapid pace while a Boomerang defeats the Dungeon Guardian wasn't intended either, but that was preserved because it allowed "creativity."

Storing my Warrior Emblem in a vanity slot and swapping away from it in the menu to bring in a different accessory as I need it, then swapping back to it quickly wasn't intended either, but it was a creative use of those slots.

...which just sounded a little silly to me. (I'm not super interested in hoiks either, fwiw, but they're used for more than just cheesing the Dungeon Guardian, which you can also do with a minecart anyway.)

 

[Piterros990]

Just want to comment on the torch God feature. Sure it's good to place torches but if you have to pick any of them back up for any reason you wind up with inventory being clogged with a bunch of different flavors of torches.

You can easily wind up with like 2 jungle torches, 8 hallow torches, 6 snow torches, couple hundred regular torches... And now that accessory slots are restricted those four slots filled with torch flavors hurt even worse.

It's true, but honestly, you don't have to use this option - it's not forced.

Well, maybe clearing inventory from trash isn't such a huge problem for me because I've played a lot of modded Terraria without autotrash, so yeah, for people who aren't so used to quick clearing of inventory I guess it might be mildly annoying in some scenarios.

 

[Piterros990]

Oh, I see. No, I understand all that, but I mostly don't understand how you're losing functionality (as opposed to convenience, which I absolutely agree has been lost) when you can do the same thing from your inventory instead of the vanity slots, and there are more inventory slots now to put them in. (I may just misunderstand, or I might be being overly pedantic, oops.) I'm a builder as well. When I described earlier that I also was using those vanity slots as extra storage, that was what for, usually. That or the Greedy Ring. It doesn't bother me greatly to have them in favorited inventory slots instead, though it's a minor inconvenience to have to re-favorite a swapped item. That's why I was thinking about the ability to favorite inventory slots instead of items themselves, so that we could sort of designate new spaces for those kinds of things.

Okay, I kinda misinterpreted you there. Yeah, the system is still functional, but it's way more inconvenient. What bothers me the most is what I've already described in detail too, how you now have to switch everything manually. Even worse when you think of all the items you have to already carry in your inventory that fill the space, and now you get to carry accessories there as well. But I'm repeating myself now.

If they had graphics, that would solve the problem while keeping everyone happy. The graphic for something like an emblem isn't too intuitive, but it could be as simple as a couple of pixels on the character's chest to represent an amulet or something. (Once again, while I think this is a better solution, I know it isn't easy. And I know it's not likely in vanilla, given the state of the game. I'd be willing to make the art for a mod, though, for what it's worth.)

Yeah... the problem is some of these items are theoretically so small they would, and considering game textures' resolution, should be invisible on the character. That's why I don't really see that as a viable solution... Because I don't think devs would even bother to add something like one gray pixel for an emblem or one green pixel for a bezoar. And that would make you an even more cluttered Christmas tree.

They're immunity items, not cure potions. I can see the argument for this being an exploit. I probably would have changed them long ago to prevent this, personally. I never used them this way myself, but honestly I never used any of them at all aside from the Bezoar, and that only in specific situations. As they are, I think they're too underpowered to devote a slot to, even with a modifier, but I think that's a problem with the items themselves. What kind of buff could make them usable, I wonder?

Maybe, but here's the thing, like you mentioned: you don't use them at all. This is a problem, but, while they would theoretically need a buff, in reality they don't, for two reasons: they do exactly what they're supposed to do, and they're a material for Ankh, which inherits all their functionality. That's why I consider it not an exploit, but rather one and only viable way of using them (other than in crafting).

Oh, and for not being cure potions, there are no cure potions in Terraria either. Only the immunity items, so I don't really see a reason why you shouldn't use them in such a way. In the example I mentioned, with quick swapping to cleanse yourself from a debuff, it can be compared to different systems. Many other games allow you to implement such a strategy (of course, in some it's easier, in some harder), but it's not only in Terraria where you could do such a thing. And, isn't this kind of similiar with how you can swap weapons? For example as a mage it's pretty much always the case, that along with a standard weapon(s) you bring Golden Shower.

In accessories example, you're making sure to keep yourself clear of debuffs.
In weapons example, you're making sure to keep the enemy debuffed.

It's the exact same thing, isn't it? In both cases you swap a piece of equipment, and both are fair moves viable to be implemented into a strategy. That's why I don't think it can be called an exploit (especially that we don't have consumables that would get rid of a certain debuff or make you immune for a short time).

 

[BlueCorvid]

Okay, I kinda misinterpreted you there. Yeah, the system is still functional, but it's way more inconvenient. What bothers me the most is what I've already described in detail too, how you now have to switch everything manually. Even worse when you think of all the items you have to already carry in your inventory that fill the space, and now you get to carry accessories there as well. But I'm repeating myself now.

There's just a lot of items in general that are super useful these days. With the added inventory space and the ability to get to safety and back to where we were with no hassle with the new Potions of Return, maybe we can start to let go of carrying everything on us at all times. (I know I'm guilty of this myself. My piggy/safe on my oldest character are a huge mess!)

Yeah... the problem is some of these items are theoretically so small they would, and considering game textures' resolution, should be invisible on the character. That's why I don't really see that as a viable solution... Because I don't think devs would even bother to add something like one gray pixel for an emblem or one green pixel for a bezoar. And that would make you an even more cluttered Christmas tree.

There are a number of items that override each other -- bottles and watches, for instance, or multiple wings or capes, so things don't get too cluttered. A bezoar (and a few other items) could take up a similar "hanging from the belt" position, for example. I still think the Greedy Ring should have a graphic the way the Diamond Ring does, haha.

Oh, and for not being cure potions, there are no cure potions in Terraria either.

Maybe there should be! :O

And, isn't this kind of similiar with how you can swap weapons?

Nah, weapons feel like they're made to be swapped, that's why they're in your hotbar. Equipment has dedicated inventory slots in exchange for a permanent effect. Say, that's an idea! Maybe the immunity items could be usable to get rid of a debuff? So when you're fighting Queen Bee, you could scroll over to it in the hotbar and use it to cancel the poison without even opening your inventory at all. If that's the only way they're useful anyway, it might be advisable to just make them work that way officially.

 

[Tripoli]

They're immunity items, not cure potions. I can see the argument for this being an exploit.

It is an exploit (although that's highly debatable). Yet you make it sound like it is something bad. For exploit to be bad it has to be either game breaking in general (also debatable and dependant on particular game) or giving unfair advantage to certain players. Now, what Bezoar does is simply removes/prevents Poisoned debuff, and if we were to go with your logic, the exploit related to it wasn't even fixed — it was just crippled. Hell, actual fix would be easy — just add a line of code that prevents debuffs from being removed on activation of accessory. But all of this doesn't really matter, since we know the official answer as to why social slots were "fixed": "it wasn't intended for 9 years, and you're cheating (lol) the game of extra storage".

I mean, clearly not, actually. I never used them (or thought to use them) to swap hardmode helmets for the bonus, haha! Funnily enough, the "vanity" title implied to me that they were for making your character look nice while still letting you use whatever is most effective.

Yet you used accessories for the same reason. As for the name "vanity", well... Read below.

And how would anyone stop me or tell me I was wrong

I'm referring to game design, not forums.

Nah, weapons feel like they're made to be swapped, that's why they're in your hotbar. Equipment has dedicated inventory slots in exchange for a permanent effect.

Now consider elaborating on how right-click swap fits into your understanding of weapons/accessories dichotomy. It was and still is here for a long time. Was it made to let you quickswap your shield for Crimson Cape for these sweet vanity bonuses? Or something else?

 

[BlueCorvid]

It is an exploit (although that's highly debatable). Yet you make it sound like it is something bad.

It's possible that we have different definitions of "bad." Even if it's not unfair or game-breaking, if something is clearly unintended and doesn't add anything the creator of a game thinks is valuable, it doesn't belong in the game. It's not some kind of moral judgement. I don't think people who used items this way are cheaters who should be punished or something. I just understand why the change was made and agree with that decision even though it's not convenient to me. Instead, it interests me to find a solution to the inconvenience while working within the constraints of the new system.

There's a whole discussion to be had about how much value the creator's vision has over the consumer's desires, but that's a bit much to have right now. For me personally, I believe there has to be a balance: too much to one side and we have a game that the creator doesn't have any desire to work on; too much to the other and we have one that no one wants to play. It's important to me to respect both of those perspectives, as both a creator and consumer of art myself.

That's where "my logic" is coming from.

I'm referring to game design, not forums.

As far as game design goes, calling them "vanity" slots was enough to communicate to me the intention behind them.

This has always been a game of increasingly difficult fights involving increasingly precise and challenging gameplay. Barring one new gamemode that caters to the creative side of the community, convenience is not king in Terraria.

Now consider elaborating on how right-click swap fits into your understanding of weapons/accessories dichotomy. It was and still is here for a long time. Was it made to let you quickswap your shield for Crimson Cape for these sweet vanity bonuses? Or something else?

I couldn't tell you. I'm not sure I ever really noticed that you could right-click a slot to "quick swap" between vanity items. I'veaalways just picked them up and moved them. If that's the feature that confuses players, it should probably be looked at.

 

[Piterros990]

There's just a lot of items in general that are super useful these days. With the added inventory space and the ability to get to safety and back to where we were with no hassle with the new Potions of Return, maybe we can start to let go of carrying everything on us at all times. (I know I'm guilty of this myself. My piggy/safe on my oldest character are a huge mess!)

I'm honestly guilty of having a mess in inventories at all times xd I'm one of those people who really enjoy having lots of options and swapping between them (weapons for example), same with pets, mounts, vanity... And then there is a problem with many convenience items that you just carry around. And I still haven't got in the habit of using potions of return. Oh well.

Maybe there should be! :O

Nah, weapons feel like they're made to be swapped, that's why they're in your hotbar. Equipment has dedicated inventory slots in exchange for a permanent effect. Say, that's an idea! Maybe the immunity items could be usable to get rid of a debuff? So when you're fighting Queen Bee, you could scroll over to it in the hotbar and use it to cancel the poison without even opening your inventory at all. If that's the only way they're useful anyway, it might be advisable to just make them work that way officially.

Of course, though once I've learned about the quick swap and though of utilising it to get rid of a debuff, I felt the exact same way.

Well, though if too many consider it an exploit that shouldn't be there in the first place... What if you could use immunity items directly from hotbar to get rid of a debuff on you? Without changing how the accessory works when equipped, you could utilise them in some scenarios. Though you couldn't remove curse that way xD

Of course this solution doesn't fix the main problem mentioned in this thread. But it's one step to bringing back the feature that was taken away. We still have to consider loadout swapping, and if you really don't want to use vanity slots for that, then someone suggested it in this discussion, how mannequins could be made into working loadout stations if you just added two accessory slots and a quick-swap option to them.

 

[Tripoli]

Got time to answer.

It's possible that we have different definitions of "bad."

Sure. I employ more conservative approach.

Even if it's not unfair or game-breaking, if something is clearly unintended and doesn't add anything the creator of a game thinks is valuable, it doesn't belong in the game.

And this conservative approach says: if it's there, think twice before removing it. You may think it doesn't belong, because some century old design document says so (then again how right click swap made it there?) but players might be accustomed to it enough to treat it as integral part of the game. And then add our consensus on it not being game-breaking on top of that. As for "anything valuable", then well... This thread is exactly about informing the game creators that they should reconsider their decision.

I just understand why the change was made and agree with that decision even though it's not convenient to me.

Instead, it interests me to find a solution to the inconvenience while working within the constraints of the new system.

To work within constraints of the new system we have to establish first that the "system" exists. Let's go completely hypothetical for a second: imagine that Relogic rebalanced Accessories in such a way that they will be divided into three categories. Early ones can't go to vanity slots, Mid-game ones can, and Late-game will function even in Vanity slots. This is a huge change that likely will drag other changes just to accomodate for itself. And of course it will stir a lot of controversy. Yet it will be a new bonafide system, and your "willingness to work within constraints of" will work. But in our reality you are now saying that you want to work within constraints of arbitrary and, frankly, nonsensical "fix" — nature of which i've already outlined on first page ITT — that, upon its release was reported as a bug so frequently, it was put on "list of often reported non-issues" by mods. And you are willing to do so, because you saw it says "vanity", yet weren't aware of right click.

There's a whole discussion to be had about how much value the creator's vision has over the consumer's desires, but that's a bit much to have right now. For me personally, I believe there has to be a balance: too much to one side and we have a game that the creator doesn't have any desire to work on; too much to the other and we have one that no one wants to play. It's important to me to respect both of those perspectives, as both a creator and consumer of art myself.

Balance you're speaking about already was violated by much more controversial Luck and Happiness nobody but the creator in question asked for. Half-baked overhaul of accessories is just a cherry on top.

This has always been a game of increasingly difficult fights involving increasingly precise and challenging gameplay.

Yep, that's why we like it.

Barring one new gamemode that caters to the creative side of the community, convenience is not king in Terraria.

Yeeah... to me it sound like you just steered from opinions to a rather heavy-handed apology. The amount of "convenient" changes every major and some minor patches delivered shows that you couldn't get more wrong about value of convenience in Terraria. Hell, new block swap alone is absolutely indispensable and shows how big of a road game made from times when fancier shoeboxes were your only option at creative building without trying too hard. And that's only about building, so don't get me started on various options for fast and not-so-fast travel, QoL tweaks, UI changes and so on. Suggesting that by 1.4 "convenience is not king" and therefore players shouldn't have certain expectations when it comes to it, shows to me that you either employ very different definition of "convenience" that confuses it with "gameplay difficulty" — which is completely outside of ITT scope — or that over the course of many years you somehow managed to ignore a lot more than just right-click-swap feature.