Please increase the buff limits on players.

@Toxophilite [East]
I'm not quite sure though if summoner got heavily buffed, more like, it actually turned out to be quite an useful class as pure as well, whivh it originally wasn't very good with, especially early game. I still combine it with magic weapons though, because some minions just have problems with some bosses.
I mean, I've already tried & failed to explain to so many that Summoner was already busted, so I won't bother trying to do that now. The new additions are certainly fun, if nothing else, but the devs are gonna have their hands full trying to balance it. I honestly can't wait to see what else gets discovered 6 months to a year from now. 😝🥤

But I think, as for alchemy, the thing that might makes it more likely that this issue appears is, as you said too, journey mode. I don't think summoner is relevant there at first - it only becomes that, because they have more buffs (summons) and are most likely will notice it right away, if the game de-summons their minions.
So, it's that, some might use buffs for everyday adventuring.
Well that & the fact that each, separate Minion is technically a newer buff, which means a person can break the limit on purpose, just to prove a point. It doesn't mean it needs to be adjusted, it just means they're using your available slots poorly. It's not like this limitation is debilitating & can't be easily circumvented, it just means that players who wanna Metagame will have to learn what that means & adapt, which I think is the healthier alternative.

But while I wouldn't do that, because on non-journey, it's a hassle to brew them, I think it's perfectly fine for anyone to use them, if they want.
And otherwise, especially on higher difficulty, and especially late-game bosses... it can be very tough, so I think it's justified if you wanna go all out on buffing yourself as much as possible. and if you actually went through the trouble of getting the ingredients and brewing the potions, then it's not quite fair, if you can't use them because of buff cap, or the game will cancel some of them, because of a random zombie banner or something.
I'm not against using Potions at all, but it's like you said, a person who actually crafts them by hand, would likely never pop twenty-four (24) buffs in one sitting, so casually, because they're extremely expensive to make & the resources aren't easy to come by. As a person who creates engines, I could tell that this issue was a false flag almost immediately. It's not debilitating enough to devote attention to & I'd rather the devs devote their resources to actual problems that needs attention. 😒🥤

I don't think buffs would break the game. and if you actually go as far to get all those potions, why to punish you for it by you're not allowed to use all of them? Yes, it could get to ridicolous levels, but who cares? Terraria can be played in so many ways! If someone wants to get a bajillion buffs because that makes them more confident that they can tackle a certain boss, then why not?
Because there's a difference between allowing a player certain freedoms & assuring a certain level of challenge remains. The same reason the devs are careful about buffing defense in this game, allowing too many Accessory Slots or taking the time to nerf & buff certain Weapons & Armor, is the same reason allowing more slots for buffs is a bad idea.

By the way, another observation is, that almost all cases here with stuff exceeding the buff limit are almost always like like 2-3 additional buffs/debuffs. so, adding something like, one more row - how many buffs a row has? 11? adding something like one more row would likely solve the issue.
To begin with, this almost never appears on non-journey mode, and almost always appears only, at a few late-game boss fights/events. something like one more row of buffs/debuffs would be plenty, and likely never push the buffs to that limit again (with the exception of, if you wanna use a bajillion buffs on journey "because it's free anyway") - that still can be an issue, but the other issues most likely would be solved.
I don't know, that sounds like a recipe for disaster, adding eleven (11) more buff slots!? I mean, I don't know, I've been trying to explain the fragility of Terraria's balance for quite a while, with no success, I doubt it'll be any different now. 😬🤷‍♂️

I don't really get the reasoning behind arguing against increasing buff/debuff slots. If implemented correctly it has no negative consequences for those who weren't exceeding them before. If it is specifically a potion thing, potions could have their own cap. As I said before, the balance is all messed up right now because so many different systems all share one set of slots.
I did mentioned it above but, a person can now Summon up to nine (9) different Minions, on purpose, just to prove that the limit is "broken", when in reality, it'd just be an example of them using their slots poorly. I'm describing the exact thing that's actually happening, but to an extreme degree. All that's happening is that players are overindulging in their buff usage & should focus on only using what's essential for the task they're doing. Let me put into perspective what people who want the limit increased are really asking...
  1. Campfire Buff
  2. Heart Lantern Buff
  3. Honey Buff
  4. Mana Lantern Buff
  5. Cat Statue Buff
  6. Sharpening Buff
  7. Crystal Ball buff
  8. Bewitching table Buff
  9. Ammo box buff
  10. Sunflower Buff
  11. Peace Candle Buff
  12. Water Candle Buff
  13. Enemy Banner Buff
  14. Poison Debuff
  15. Venom Debuff
  16. Chilled Debuff
  17. Slow Debuff
  18. On Fire! Debuff
  19. Darkness Debuff
  20. Silence Debuff
  21. Bleeding Debuff
  22. Cursed Inferno Debuff
Keep in mind, these are all the possible buffs & debuffs that can occur outside of normal Potions, Minions & Equipment. Now, before you think that I'm reaching, take a look at the effects of Red Potions. Now, imagine adding eleven (11) more slots to the twenty-two (22) we already have & imagine the game trying to store a Players Character who's intentially trying to break the game, do you think that real-estate/ memory will be free? 🤔🥤 Now, imagine thirty-three (33) slots of all positive effects, even stacking biome specific potions on-top of one another! You don't think that's a bit much, more than that even, do you think it's even worth it to tamper with the idea?
 
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... imagine the game trying to store a Players Character who's intentially trying to break the game, do you think that real-estate/ memory will be free? 🤔🥤 Now, imagine thirty-three (33) slots of all positive effects, even stacking biome specific potions on-top of one another! You don't think that's a bit much, more than that even, do you think it's even worth it to tamper with the idea?
Buffs/Debuffs are only an BuffID and a timer. Each buff slot takes adds 8 bytes to the cost of the buff system for each player. Right now player buffs uses 176 bytes per player. Adding 11 slots to a player is an additional 88 bytes for a total of 264. Currently a server with 255 player slots pre-allocated takes 448800 (43.8 KiB) for the buffs for all players. If 11 slots were added to all players it would increase by 22440 (21.9KiB) to 67320 (65.7 KiB). By comparison a single inventory item is around 392 bytes. A single inventory item uses the same memory as 49 buff slots.

As I mentioned before, uncapped buffs was implemented as a mod and people were playing with over 150 buffs.
 
I mean, I've already tried & failed to explain to so many that Summoner was already busted, so I won't bother trying to do that now. The new additions are certainly fun, if nothing else, but the devs are gonna have their hands full trying to balance it. I honestly can't wait to see what else gets discovered 6 months to a year from now. 😝🥤


Well that & the fact that each, separate Minion is technically a newer buff, which means a person can break the limit on purpose, just to prove a point. It doesn't mean it needs to be adjusted, it just means they're using your available slots poorly. It's not like this limitation is debilitating & can't be easily circumvented, it just means that players who wanna Metagame will have to learn what that means & adapt, which I think is the healthier alternative.


I'm not against using Potions at all, but it's like you said, a person who actually crafts them by hand, would likely never pop twenty-four (24) buffs in one sitting, so casually, because they're extremely expensive to make & the resources aren't easy to come by. As a person who creates engines, I could tell that this issue was a false flag almost immediately. It's not debilitating enough to devote attention to & I'd rather the devs devote their resources to actual problems that needs attention. 😒🥤


Because there's a difference between allowing a player certain freedoms & assuring a certain level of challenge remains. The same reason the devs are careful about buffing defense in this game, allowing too many Accessory Slots or taking the time to nerf & buff certain Weapons & Armor, is the same reason allowing more slots for buffs is a bad idea.


I don't know, that sounds like a recipe for disaster, adding eleven (11) more buff slots!? I mean, I don't know, I've been trying to explain the fragility of Terraria's balance for quite a while, with no success, I doubt it'll be any different now. 😬🤷‍♂️


I did mentioned it above but, a person can now Summon up to nine (9) different Minions, on purpose, just to prove that the limit is "broken", when in reality, it'd just be an example of them using their slots poorly. I'm describing the exact thing that's actually happening, but to an extreme degree. All that's happening is that players are overindulging in their buff usage & should focus on only using what's essential for the task they're doing. Let me put into perspective what people who want the limit increased are really asking...
  1. Campfire Buff
  2. Heart Lantern Buff
  3. Honey Buff
  4. Mana Lantern Buff
  5. Cat Statue Buff
  6. Sharpening Buff
  7. Crystal Ball buff
  8. Bewitching table Buff
  9. Ammo box buff
  10. Sunflower Buff
  11. Peace Candle Buff
  12. Water Candle Buff
  13. Enemy Banner Buff
  14. Poison Debuff
  15. Venom Debuff
  16. Chilled Debuff
  17. Slow Debuff
  18. On Fire! Debuff
  19. Darkness Debuff
  20. Silence Debuff
  21. Bleeding Debuff
  22. Cursed Inferno Debuff
Keep in mind, these are all the possible buffs & debuffs that can occur outside of normal Potions, Minions & Equipment. Now, before you think that I'm reaching, take a look at the effects of Red Potions. Now, imagine adding eleven (11) more slots to the twenty-two (22) we already have & imagine the game trying to store a Players Character who's intentially trying to break the game, do you think that real-estate/ memory will be free? 🤔🥤 Now, imagine thirty-three (33) slots of all positive effects, even stacking biome specific potions on-top of one another! You don't think that's a bit much, more than that even, do you think it's even worth it to tamper with the idea?
I love it how you are COMPLETELY leaving out various buffs that are extremely important for casual players. Let's take a look into the context of where my current Summoner is, what equipment they have, and what buffs are regularly used in bosses.
Current stage: Post Golem, Pre-Fishron (Pre-Frost/Pumpkin Moon)
Summon Type: 1 (Blade Staff/Optic Staff, depending upon what I'm doing.) (1 buff)
Armor: Hallowed Armor (1 buff)
Accessories: Terraspark Boots, Star Veil, Master Ninja Gear, Ankh Shield, Brain of Confusion, Pygmy Staff (1 buff)
Relevant Weapons: Durendal Whip, Golden Shower (1 buff)
Potions used in battle: Ironskin, Endurance, Life Force, Swiftness, Regeneration, Exquisitely Stuffed, Summoning, Wrath, Mana Regeneration. (9 buffs)
Environmental effects: Campfire, Heart Lantern, Star in a Bottle, Bast Statue (4 buffs)
Pets/Mounts: Wisp in a Bottle, Baby Shark, Gelatin Pillion (3 buffs, can be down to 1.)
That's 20, at minimum 17 buffs before Potion Sickness, Banners, and enemy debuffs. That's still extremely close to the 22 limit.

Also, you keep throwing around the term of "metagaming". You're literally using it as a buzzword.
 
I love it how you are COMPLETELY leaving out various buffs that are extremely important for casual players. Let's take a look into the context of where my current Summoner is, what equipment they have, and what buffs are regularly used in bosses.
If you're a casual player, what parts of the game are you stuck on that's making buff potions essential?! I don't understand exactly what happened between 1.3.5 & 1.4.1 that made the game harder & not easier. 🤨🥤

Current stage: Post Golem, Pre-Fishron (Pre-Frost/Pumpkin Moon)
Summon Type: 1 (Blade Staff/Optic Staff, depending upon what I'm doing.) (1 buff)
Armor: Hallowed Armor (1 buff)
Accessories: Terraspark Boots, Star Veil, Master Ninja Gear, Ankh Shield, Brain of Confusion, Pygmy Staff (1 buff)
Relevant Weapons: Durendal Whip, Golden Shower (1 buff)
Potions used in battle: Ironskin, Endurance, Life Force, Swiftness, Regeneration, Exquisitely Stuffed, Summoning, Wrath, Mana Regeneration. (9 buffs)
Environmental effects: Campfire, Heart Lantern, Star in a Bottle, Bast Statue (4 buffs)
Pets/Mounts: Wisp in a Bottle, Baby Shark, Gelatin Pillion (3 buffs, can be down to 1.)
That's 20, at minimum 17 buffs before Potion Sickness, Banners, and enemy debuffs. That's still extremely close to the 22 limit.
That sounds like a powerful set-up, are you saying that's still not enough, or that you don't like the off-chance that a debuff might disable one of your possible buffs? What's crazy is that these are all major improvements from 1.3.5 to 1.4.1, Brain of Confusion & Durendal being two examples. These are all buffs, just as you said, I don't see the issue with keeping these things in mind while you're playing, even though you're claiming to be casual, you're explaining specific gaming mechanics to me, to the letter.

Also, you keep throwing around the term of "metagaming". You're literally using it as a buzzword.
At this point, I don't think anything I say really matters, we'll just have to see how this all plays out. The devs seem to listen to these kinds of suggestions anyhow, so I wouldn't be surprised if these changes are made, I just hope I'm wrong & we don't see more power creep, on top of the current power creep we're already seeing. That being the case, I do still wanna clear up any confusion about what Metagaming is, so that I don't have to run into these kinds of accusations in the future when engaging in other kinds of discussions. 🤷‍♂️🥤

Metagaming is a term used in role-playing games, which describes a player's use of real-life knowledge concerning the state of the game to determine their character's actions, when said character has no relevant knowledge or awareness under the circumstances. This can refer to plot information in the game such as secrets or events occurring away from the character, as well as facets of the game's mechanics such as abstract statistics or the precise limits of abilities. Metagaming is an example of "breaking character", as the character is making decisions based on information they couldn't know and thus would not make in reality. (source)
 
@Toxophilite [East]

I don't think adding 11 more slots would break anything, 98% of the times, you won't reach the buff cap anyway.

The game also shouldn't punish you for having more type of minions out, because for summoner, isn't that's kind of just like switching weapons in any other class?

Also, I think there's actually something else similar in the game. Ranger class' ammo management. Unlike melee, mage, or summoner, ranger class has "ammo" which tends to fill up several additional slots (often more than the 4 ammo slots - which are, by the way, not actually used for ammo by other (non-hybrid) classes, but can hold bait, and a few other items, like fallen stars, saving a few slots from inventory. meanwhile, ranger will often has these and several other inventory slots filled with ammo (especially when using multiple ranger weapons) just to be sure, they won't run out of ammo.
In that regards, ranger has their inventory filled up by additional stuff, and here we see summoner instead has their buff slots filled up with aditional stuff. both are unpleasant things.

However, the general difference is, the game will not arbitrarily throw away a stack of ammo and you end up being without ammo for your weapons, while the game will often desummon your minions, if you hit the buff cap. it's just like if you suddenly would find yourself without ammo, mid-battle. not a very pleasant thing...


By the way... "Metagaming" I dunno. if that is the description of it, I'm not sure if potions are any "metagaming", since why wouldn't the character know about them?
Plus, in that regards, if we try to be very strict - like "from the character's viewpoint", Terraria is full of "metagaming", like, due to 2D, you will notice treasures and enemies on the other side of a wall...
But even if we're not that strict, the only one playthrough where you might dive into the game without knowledge on it is your very first playthrough. after several playthroughs, you will know the patterns of progression, adventuring, bosses, etc. and naturally use that knowledge, and not just wander around in the wilderness, or ask the guide about tips.
 
I don't think adding 11 more slots would break anything, 98% of the times, you won't reach the buff cap anyway.
That's exactly what I heard people saying about the game before 1.4.0 was released & the devs had to reevaluate a rather large pool of Weapons & Armor. In addition, because I specialize in Summoner Class, I knew how easy it was gonna be to underestimate the balancing issues of adding a late pre-Hardmode & early pre-Hardmode progression tier, we got both the Flinx Minions & Obsidian Armor out of it. As I said before, these were all fun additions, but I'm starting to notice a trend, but I can't seem to communicate it effectively enough for it to matter. If the devs wanna turn Terraria into Kirby's Epic Yarn, they have every right to do so, if that's what the majority of fans want. 🤷‍♂️🥤 I guess I can finally look into Mods, since they are technically, officially supported now.

The game also shouldn't punish you for having more type of minions out, because for summoner, isn't that's kind of just like switching weapons in any other class?
That's the thing, Summoner was never being punished, if anything, it got the most buffs of any Class in the entire game, which caused more issues. What's happening is Summoner is getting the benefit of Minions, plus everything else, like I've always been saying. Summoner now has Tag Bonus, Flask Bonus, Minions, Minion Buffs, plus every other relevant buff in the game. It's all-the-buffs, which isn't bad, until it starts to spill over into over twenty! That's crazy... thinking about the fact that I can't seem to effectively explain to anyone that 17 buffs is obnoxious.

Also, I think there's actually something else similar in the game. Ranger class' ammo management. Unlike melee, mage, or summoner, ranger class has "ammo" which tends to fill up several additional slots (often more than the 4 ammo slots - which are, by the way, not actually used for ammo by other (non-hybrid) classes, but can hold bait, and a few other items, like fallen stars, saving a few slots from inventory. meanwhile, ranger will often has these and several other inventory slots filled with ammo (especially when using multiple ranger weapons) just to be sure, they won't run out of ammo. In that regards, ranger has their inventory filled up by additional stuff, and here we see summoner instead has their buff slots filled up with aditional stuff. both are unpleasant things.
Ranger Class has always been the defacto Class King, I always felt that it was the Class you use to curve the difficulty in the game, similar to other games, not the Class to try & emulate to decide balance around, which is unfortunately what players were asking for... & got. Now they want more buffs?? 😬🥤

However, the general difference is, the game will not arbitrarily throw away a stack of ammo and you end up being without ammo for your weapons, while the game will often desummon your minions, if you hit the buff cap. it's just like if you suddenly would find yourself without ammo, mid-battle. not a very pleasant thing...
I mean, I'm not saying it's a pretty situation, but it's the one players wanted. The player base keeps creating new problems with every suggestion for buffs to items & Classes, to the point the game can't keep track of them all & now they want room for even more buffs; that's crazy...

By the way... "Metagaming" I dunno. if that is the description of it, I'm not sure if potions are any "metagaming", since why wouldn't the character know about them?
Plus, in that regards, if we try to be very strict - like "from the character's viewpoint", Terraria is full of "metagaming", like, due to 2D, you will notice treasures and enemies on the other side of a wall...
I was giving the original source of the term because it suddenly become a buzz word when I was saying it. I assumed people would see that I was using it in it's connotative form, like how all words morph over time, but I guess I didn't communicate that effectively either? At this point, I don't think trying to explain it will help anyone understand it any better. 🤷‍♂️🥤

But even if we're not that strict, the only one playthrough where you might dive into the game without knowledge on it is your very first playthrough. after several playthroughs, you will know the patterns of progression, adventuring, bosses, etc. and naturally use that knowledge, and not just wander around in the wilderness, or ask the guide about tips.
Well, there's levels to Metagaming. Once you start breaking down game mechanics, counting animation frames & crunching numbers, you're Metagaming. You can't be casual & Wiki-gang at the same time is what I'm saying, you're either one or the other.
 
@Toxophilite [East]
Summoner's been an odd class, to begin with. That didn't really change.
It can deal dmg. indirectly, and also directly. actually though, there is nothing stopping other classes from using summons on the side, they're just not able to summon as strong minions as summoners.
It is kind of unbalalanced in comparison to other classes, but I wouldn't say it's game-breakingly strong, it just has some pros and cons. can deal indirect dmg. via minions, but (most) minions have awful AI, and you often could deal a lot more direct dmg. with a gun, bow, magic weapon or anything. and where and when you want. like, you might just leave lava slimes be, and wouldn't mindlessly murder the extremely valuable gnomes.

Even if summoner got some buffs, it still doesn't helps much when some minions behave dumber than a dirt block, getting stuck in random things, or following you, instead of attacking.

By now, I pretty much tried out all classes in full playthroughs, and ranger is definitelly powerful (might be more powerful than summoner, even if got buffed a lot) though it requires good aiming skills. I still dislike ranger for the ammo management part though, and I usually play mage (or, mage-melee hybrid)

you say that players create new problems? but that's one of the core things of improvement. some want to improve something. some do. this brings up some problem, which needs to be fixed. then repeat.
this is just like inventions. a washing machine surely brings up a few problems too, that weren't existing problems before it got invented, but would you argue that because it sometimes needs to be fixed, etc., a washing machine is a bad thing?


I'm not sure I really understand all this "metagaming" thing,
I won't count ticks or test if a machine can kill moon lord in less than 1 tick. XD
But I do rely on the wiki, and, I think almost all terrarians do the same.

In fact, when I started the game with minimal knowledge about it, I was trying to figure out, how to "build a house" while I had green slimes coming at me from both directions. after got killed like the 15th time while trying to figure out how walls, doors and the like works, and how to put together a "house", I was at the point of rage-quiting, but instead of actually being like "not gonna play this again", I looked up things on the wiki, and that helped me out a lot.
And then, I'm here, with more than 2 000 hours in the game, got all achievements, and being part of the community - even have a small mod too -
so, point being, I think almost all players will rely on the wiki, probably ever since the start (or rely on friends who are knowledge about the game. either way, you won't go figuring out everything alone)
And even if you would do, once you done your very first playthrough, if you go for a 2nd playthrough, you will already have knowledge about tons of things in the game. and you will likely use that knowledge. that's just normal.
 
If you're a casual player, what parts of the game are you stuck on that's making buff potions essential?! I don't understand exactly what happened between 1.3.5 & 1.4.1 that made the game harder & not easier. 🤨🥤


That sounds like a powerful set-up, are you saying that's still not enough, or that you don't like the off-chance that a debuff might disable one of your possible buffs? What's crazy is that these are all major improvements from 1.3.5 to 1.4.1, Brain of Confusion & Durendal being two examples. These are all buffs, just as you said, I don't see the issue with keeping these things in mind while you're playing, even though you're claiming to be casual, you're explaining specific gaming mechanics to me, to the letter.


At this point, I don't think anything I say really matters, we'll just have to see how this all plays out. The devs seem to listen to these kinds of suggestions anyhow, so I wouldn't be surprised if these changes are made, I just hope I'm wrong & we don't see more power creep, on top of the current power creep we're already seeing. That being the case, I do still wanna clear up any confusion about what Metagaming is, so that I don't have to run into these kinds of accusations in the future when engaging in other kinds of discussions. 🤷‍♂️🥤

Metagaming is a term used in role-playing games, which describes a player's use of real-life knowledge concerning the state of the game to determine their character's actions, when said character has no relevant knowledge or awareness under the circumstances. This can refer to plot information in the game such as secrets or events occurring away from the character, as well as facets of the game's mechanics such as abstract statistics or the precise limits of abilities. Metagaming is an example of "breaking character", as the character is making decisions based on information they couldn't know and thus would not make in reality. (source)
1. It's not that I'm stuck, it's the problem that the game eats buffs when you accidentally hit over the cap, and then it eats my minions, forcing me to resummon each and every single one of them while also trying to multitask not dying to a boss. For various people who are wired a certain way (like myself) this can be a very frustrating and daunting task since you don't want to over summon or else you're wasting both time and mana.
2. I'm saying what I said in my previous point, the game needs to stop eating my minions from the off chance that I get a random debuff after getting Potion Sickness, among other things.
3. Casual players can have deep understanding of the game's knowledge. Hardcore players are those who play things like For the Worthy, Hardcore Mode, Master Mode, or Speedrun the game regularly. I'm not one of those people. I'm simply a knowledgeable casual player with a database of information readily available to me. (Namely the wiki.)
 
Summoner's been an odd class, to begin with. That didn't really change.
It can deal dmg. indirectly, and also directly. actually though, there is nothing stopping other classes from using summons on the side, they're just not able to summon as strong minions as summoners.
Yes & no, see, that's the dilemma that 1.4.1 created. The Summoner's path is so Meta now, it almost doesn't make sense to not have a Minion. If you have thirty-three (33) slots to work with & can pluck potions from the void, why not have a Bewitching Table buff & a Summoner's Potion buff? Before, the Class was very intentional; if you wanted to invest in being a Summoner, you had to develop certain types of fundamentals, & have a certain level of patience, that's mostly gone now.

That was part of it's charm in it's humble beginnings, but so few players understood fundamentals & chose to go with instant gratification. I can have an entire discussion about how this trend is trickling down into almost everything gaming, that even fighting games are losing their identity, but it'll likely just make this discussion even more confusing. Either way, Summoner gets to kill most enemies without lifting a finger, collect free Enemy Banners & also annihilate Bosses with minimal effort too. I liked the contrast the Class had in 1.3.5, that was unfortunately lost in 1.4.1. As long as the majority of players are happy, that's all that matters, I guess. 🤷‍♂️ 🥤

It is kind of unbalalanced in comparison to other classes, but I wouldn't say it's game-breakingly strong, it just has some pros and cons. can deal indirect dmg. via minions, but (most) minions have awful AI, and you often could deal a lot more direct dmg. with a gun, bow, magic weapon or anything. and where and when you want. like, you might just leave lava slimes be, and wouldn't mindlessly murder the extremely valuable gnomes.
Nah, Obsidian Armor is pretty game-breaking & the sad part is that even with it getting nerfed, it's still gonna be busted, because I already know what players are gonna do to optimize it once the final updates are in. The devs are in a weird spot now, because if they nerf the Armor too hard, what was the point of adding it?, but if they don't nerf it enough, it's still gonna likely be used for most of Hardmode by skilled players, undoing all the balancing they worked so hard to implement in the first place.

That's my only issue with most of these updates, is that I mostly understood what the devs were trying to do with the balance changes, but then they suddenly forgot their original plan & recreated those same exact problems they worked so hard to fix with the newer content, by listening to the playerbase. It's like this endless cycle of the only answer being, "we need more buffs" & I seem to be the only person who sees how that's a bad call. I'm having to divorce myself from this game more & more every day, which is kinda sad, because I enjoyed 1.4.0 so much. I'm glad I actually beat it before 1.4.1 though. 😊🥤 I mean, I already got to enjoy the new addition thoroughly, so... I guess it's everyone else's turn now.

Even if summoner got some buffs, it still doesn't helps much when some minions behave dumber than a dirt block, getting stuck in random things, or following you, instead of attacking.
Most players who use the Class have poor fundamentals, but if you think the minor weaknesses the Class currently have make it less-than-stellar, wait until the final build is released & give the community 2-3 months, you'll see... 🤷‍♂️🥤 1.4.1 Summoner is pretty busted.

By now, I pretty much tried out all classes in full playthroughs, and ranger is definitely powerful (might be more powerful than summoner, even if got buffed a lot) though it requires good aiming skills. I still dislike ranger for the ammo management part though, and I usually play mage (or, mage-melee hybrid)
The thing most players don't understand is that its not always about the numbers, sometimes it's about consistency, progression, safety & ease-of-use. I actually had to show a group of extremely competent Metagamers that a Ranger Class that was already busted, didn't need more buffs, because the game's balance is so out-of-whack now. That's a whole other discussion, but just keep in mind that we have a mode now, where Chlorophyte is infinite.

you say that players create new problems? but that's one of the core things of improvement. some want to improve something. some do. this brings up some problem, which needs to be fixed. then repeat. this is just like inventions. a washing machine surely brings up a few problems too, that weren't existing problems before it got invented, but would you argue that because it sometimes needs to be fixed, etc., a washing machine is a bad thing?
I don't disagree with that idea, but the only solutions I've been seeing lately are buffs. Where does it end then?! You don't think that adding even more buffs, to things that have been universally buffed already will cause a chain reaction, nobody, anybody?! 😒🥤

I'm not sure I really understand all this "metagaming" thing,
I won't count ticks or test if a machine can kill moon lord in less than 1 tick. XD
But I do rely on the wiki, and, I think almost all terrarians do the same.
Don't worry, I'll stop using the term altogether. It's hard enough having these kinds of discussions, I don't wanna add more confusion to an already complicate situation.

In fact, when I started the game with minimal knowledge about it, I was trying to figure out, how to "build a house" while I had green slimes coming at me from both directions. after got killed like the 15th time while trying to figure out how walls, doors and the like works, and how to put together a "house", I was at the point of rage-quiting, but instead of actually being like "not gonna play this again", I looked up things on the wiki, and that helped me out a lot.
And then, I'm here, with more than 2 000 hours in the game, got all achievements, and being part of the community - even have a small mod too -
so, point being, I think almost all players will rely on the wiki, probably ever since the start (or rely on friends who are knowledge about the game. either way, you won't go figuring out everything alone)
And even if you would do, once you done your very first playthrough, if you go for a 2nd playthrough, you will already have knowledge about tons of things in the game. and you will likely use that knowledge. that's just normal.
Hero's Journey FTW (LoL)! 😝🥤
 
@Toxophilite [East]
I think when talking about "infinite and completely free buff (potions), it's about journey mode, and not about the summoner class.
While I didn't actually really played journey mode yet, I think there's little point talking about "balance" in a mode, where you literally can just turn on god-mode, and take no dmg. at all.

And, summoner is pretty strong, again, this was the first playthrough I managed to defeat expert Moon lord ...however around 50%(?) of the dmg, but, at least 30% at minimum was done by me trying to hit him with the nebulla blaze, because the glorious stardust dragon decided to just fly with me, instead of actually contributing to the battle. Was moon lord usually off-screen? yes. but with ranger or long range magic weapons, that's not a problem. but for some other weapons...
Even the awesome and intelligent magic daggers would often target non-important parts of bosses that consists of multiple parts, I couldn't defeat Skeletron Prime with summoner class stuff alone, because summons would always target his hands, and even if you flail around with the whip, you most likely will tag the hands, not the head, because his hands are often in the way. same goes for expert plantera's bajillion tentacles.

So, I would say, summoner is very powerful, but still not that much different in power scales from any other classes. As much additional dmg your minions could do... but they will often not attack at all, or attack irrelevant things, due to their dumb AI. most minions' AI is extremely awful (like the deadly spheres') and even the more intelligent ones have a catch or tho to them, like the tiger being usually unable to hit flying enemies, or it takes ages for the magic daggers to kill a nailhead...


Well, even if an armor is overpowered... and even if they add more possible buffs, whether you use those or not, is up to you (as long as we're talking about single player). if you don't get past of the buff cap anyway, it's irrelevant if there are +11 slots, or not. Isn't it...?


Clorophye by the way, was technically infinite in the past too. it's just that having some farms for it and harvest it again and again and again and... is incredibly tedious. it goes for other ammo too, and that makes ranger an annoying class for me, usually. journey surely offers a solution to that problem, but that's again about journey mode, and does nothing with the buff cap, or summoner class, I think.


by the way "Hero's journey", knowledge on the game can take away a bit, indeed - but nothing much can be done about that - I remember I was amazed by tons of stuff on the very first playthrough (after I figured out how to build a house XD lol) for example finding clay, or managed to get some shadewood in a world relatively early, and crafted a shadewood sword, that had an awesome, 9(!) attack!!! and I used it for quite some time, because it was an awesome, powerful sword. (lol) now if I look back, would any of us actually use a shadewood sword for long? probably not XD

however, having knowledge about things doesn't turns the newer adventures dull either however. a new playthrough is always filled with the air of tons of possibilities, and amazing new discoveries. not core discoveries, like that clay exists, or that shadewood makes alrighty-strong starter gear, but you can often run into unexpected things, like walking down in a natural cave and stumbling on a minecart track 10 minutes into the game, and you try it, and see that it's actually an extremely long track, connecting several biomes.
Random generators will always bring some new, unexpected things into the known equation.

And what if you read the wiki? You will be just one-step-ahead. It can save you from rage over non-obvious things, like if you would be trying to look for psismatic lacewings past midnight, thinking "they're some nighttime critters, right?" but that won't take away the fun part from the adventure, just reduces frustration a bit.
 
I think when talking about "infinite and completely free buff (potions), it's about journey mode, and not about the summoner class.
While I didn't actually really played journey mode yet, I think there's little point talking about "balance" in a mode, where you literally can just turn on god-mode, and take no dmg. at all.
Well, that was my original point from the beginning. Going over the buff limit is a mostly Journey Mode problem, it's not something you're likely to see in a Classic game. I'd never try to argue trying to balance Journey Mode, but I assumed that was the point y'all were making, since I feel I was pretty clear about challenging the people complaining to show us their Alchemy Labs. I knew they wouldn't be able to, because popping 24 potions is wasteful if you're actually crafting them yourself, meaning, no reasonable person would do it. 🤷‍♂️🥤

And, summoner is pretty strong, again, this was the first playthrough I managed to defeat expert Moon lord ...however around 50%(?) of the dmg, but, at least 30% at minimum was done by me trying to hit him with the nebulla blaze, because the glorious stardust dragon decided to just fly with me, instead of actually contributing to the battle. Was moon lord usually off-screen? yes. but with ranger or long range magic weapons, that's not a problem. but for some other weapons...
Even the awesome and intelligent magic daggers would often target non-important parts of bosses that consists of multiple parts, I couldn't defeat Skeletron Prime with summoner class stuff alone, because summons would always target his hands, and even if you flail around with the whip, you most likely will tag the hands, not the head, because his hands are often in the way. same goes for expert plantera's bajillion tentacles.
Keep in mind that Summoner gets a bonus with using Mounts. Try playing around with some of the newer Mounts & you'll see that you're trouble with Skeletron Prime is an illusion. Same goes for Plantera, try swapping Armor & Minions around, like Pirates for example & certain combos with Whips & you'll see how busted Summoner really is. I'm being vague to avoid spoilers, but trust me when I tell you that Summoner annihilates Bosses (are you using your Sentries too btw?).

So, I would say, summoner is very powerful, but still not that much different in power scales from any other classes. As much additional dmg your minions could do... but they will often not attack at all, or attack irrelevant things, due to their dumb AI. most minions' AI is extremely awful (like the deadly spheres') and even the more intelligent ones have a catch or tho to them, like the tiger being usually unable to hit flying enemies, or it takes ages for the magic daggers to kill a nailhead...
The trick with Summoner is understanding the weakness of your Minions & compensating for those shortcomings. Most players don't understand leashing or synergy it seems, try making these three Weapons a part of your arsenal & tell me if you still feel the same way about Summoner Class.
  • Clinger Staff
  • Nimbus Rod
  • any Sentry Minion
  • any DD2 Sentry+ Accessory
Well, even if an armor is overpowered... and even if they add more possible buffs, whether you use those or not, is up to you (as long as we're talking about single player). if you don't get past of the buff cap anyway, it's irrelevant if there are +11 slots, or not. Isn't it...?
...until someone discovers a newer duplication glitch or item exploit. Sometimes having a limit is good, because even if you break some, you don't get to break them all. I can only assume most players aren't thinking that far ahead though. 🤷‍♂️🥤

Clorophye by the way, was technically infinite in the past too. it's just that having some farms for it and harvest it again and again and again and... is incredibly tedious. it goes for other ammo too, and that makes ranger an annoying class for me, usually. journey surely offers a solution to that problem, but that's again about journey mode, and does nothing with the buff cap, or summoner class, I think.
This was just a misunderstanding of where I though most of you stood, but this is simply the Potion argument, because it has to do with finite/ limited resources, so I don't think we disagree here.

by the way "Hero's journey", knowledge on the game can take away a bit, indeed - but nothing much can be done about that - I remember I was amazed by tons of stuff on the very first playthrough (after I figured out how to build a house XD lol) for example finding clay, or managed to get some shadewood in a world relatively early, and crafted a shadewood sword, that had an awesome, 9(!) attack!!! and I used it for quite some time, because it was an awesome, powerful sword. (lol) now if I look back, would any of us actually use a shadewood sword for long? probably not XD
Those were great times, when you didn't know exactly what to do & tried to discover as much as you could, making mistakes along the way. I really wanted to preserve a lot of that feeling, when you discover that you were just doing it wrong but... can't have it all. 😅🥤

however, having knowledge about things doesn't turns the newer adventures dull either however. a new playthrough is always filled with the air of tons of possibilities, and amazing new discoveries. not core discoveries, like that clay exists, or that shadewood makes alrighty-strong starter gear, but you can often run into unexpected things, like walking down in a natural cave and stumbling on a minecart track 10 minutes into the game, and you try it, and see that it's actually an extremely long track, connecting several biomes.
Random generators will always bring some new, unexpected things into the known equation.
Yeah, I loved most of the 1.4.0 updates, they were pretty amazing additions, it's the 1.4.1 stuff that makes me scratch my head. But hey, as long as everyone is happy, that's all that matters.

And what if you read the wiki? You will be just one-step-ahead. It can save you from rage over non-obvious things, like if you would be trying to look for psismatic lacewings past midnight, thinking "they're some nighttime critters, right?" but that won't take away the fun part from the adventure, just reduces frustration a bit.
I meant, having enough knowledge to actually add content to the Wiki, not just read it. 😝🥤
 
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It seems like these are the two arguments against increasing the buff cap (please rectify me if my assessment is incorrect):
- That most players scarcely reach the buff cap
- That it disrupts the fragile balance of the game (especially in relation to the summoner class)

For the first point, I want to ask this: is it really a necessary requisite that a certain amount of players should demand a change in order to have one brought about?
I comprehend the point that most players do not seek or get afflicted by 22+ buffs often, but is this really a substantial argument for why this change shouldn't be implemented?

I don't really pay much attention to game balancing, so I can't say anything about the second point.

Personally, I wasn't a buff fanatic until recently - which was around the start of last year. I have also fully completed the game an innumerable amount of times with the summoner class since 1.2, and honestly, for the majority of that time, I wasn't a buff fanatic. It's true that buffs are invaluable to a summoner class playthrough, however, nary a time I had issues in relation with the buff cap during one. It is true that most players do not often find themselves in a predicament with the buff cap, but I cannot agree with the claim that it's just a Journey Mode problem. I have yet to complete the game in Journey Mode; and, I craft most of my potion by hand and regularly use them, but I can also recognize that I belong to a minority of players in regards to this.

I do want there to be a buff cap increase, but I rarely find any issues with the buff cap during gameplay. I only find issues with the buff cap during particular moments or facets of gameplay. I do use a large quantity of potions regularly, but looking in retrospect, I normally do not exceed the buff cap.

To be fatalistic, the buff cap will probably not be increased at all; it's too late for this to happen. Despite this and all I've said, I really do want to see it increased.
 
It seems like these are the two arguments against increasing the buff cap (please rectify me if my assessment is incorrect):
- That most players scarcely reach the buff cap
- That it disrupts the fragile balance of the game (especially in relation to the summoner class)
I guess, to be clear, I'll post the reasons I opposed it at first, then address the other things you asked, as my previous position has greatly changed.
  • I was under the impression that increasing the buff cap would require changes that might lead to unforeseen bugs, crashes & corrupted data.
  • Most players here are obsessed with Class restrictions, so there's no reason to indulge in more than 4-5 buffs for a single character, any more than that is excessive IMO.
  • Most of the features in the game having to do with character quirks received some kind of limitations, like the Vanity Slots for Accessories.
  • Increasing the buff counter to 33 from 22 is obnoxious IMHO, because 22+ positive buffs is extremely obnoxious.
  • We've already had so many Class specific improvements, to where most Boss items are OP, the buffs need to stop at some point!
I don't know if most players realize how fragile the games balance is at the moment, but if I'm being honest, I don't care about it either anymore... 😬 🤷‍♂️

For the first point, I want to ask this: is it really a necessary requisite that a certain amount of players should demand a change in order to have one brought about?
I comprehend the point that most players do not seek or get afflicted by 22+ buffs often, but is this really a substantial argument for why this change shouldn't be implemented?
Honestly, I'm starting to care less & less about what they do. If the devs wanna add more slots, I don't care anymore. 🤷‍♂️🥤

I don't really pay much attention to game balancing, so I can't say anything about the second point.
Everything's pretty much been buffed & the answer to the other issues in the game we have yet to see changed is to buff them. Buffing seems to be the answer to every solution so far & I feel like it's too obvious to have a debate about. Something has gone awry during this entire update & I'm tired of trying to figure out what it is. Once 1.4.1 is finished, I'm gonna make a new Toon & name her "Buffy", then do an entire game-breaking showcase before likely adding a ton of Mods. I used to critique Mods for their lack of respect for Terraria's balance, but I guess that excuse for not using them is out the window. 😅🤷‍♂️🥤

Personally, I wasn't a buff fanatic until recently - which was around the start of last year. I have also fully completed the game an innumerable amount of times with the summoner class since 1.2, and honestly, for the majority of that time, I wasn't a buff fanatic. It's true that buffs are invaluable to a summoner class playthrough, however, nary a time I had issues in relation with the buff cap during one. It is true that most players do not often find themselves in a predicament with the buff cap, but I cannot agree with the claim that it's just a Journey Mode problem. I have yet to complete the game in Journey Mode; and, I craft most of my potion by hand and regularly use them, but I can also recognize that I belong to a minority of players in regards to this.
Well yeah, it's mostly because the game promotes experimentation more, with the tool-tips & NPC improvements, allowing players to feel more comfortable with playing around with the older systems, though some are obviously new. Overall, things are just way more fun to do & there's a number of ways to gather resources now.

I do want there to be a buff cap increase, but I rarely find any issues with the buff cap during gameplay. I only find issues with the buff cap during particular moments or facets of gameplay. I do use a large quantity of potions regularly, but looking in retrospect, I normally do not exceed the buff cap.
Honestly, I don't think it matters anymore. The balance is so broken right now, I don't think the buff cap would make any real difference anyhow. So yeah, I agree it should be lifted. Having 33 possible buffs is probably the least obnoxiously OP thing you can do in this game ATM.

To be fatalistic, the buff cap will probably not be increased at all; it's too late for this to happen. Despite this and all I've said, I really do want to see it increased.
I mean, players are suggesting it's an easy fix & not a system change. So yeah, I support it... it's not like it matters anyway.
 
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