Game Mechanics Pre-hardmode Mage is terrible ~Sorbet Cafe

[DestinedToWander]

so I watched this video recently:

by Sorbet Cafe
He talks about the 4 classes and states that mage is the worst class, especially pre-hardmode/pre-boss with really no good weapons other than the demon scythe, which makes for very one-dimensional playthroughs. In addition to this, early game means mana is a massive problem, because you're dealing less dps on average compared to the other classes, which all have a decently solid option with very little damage fluctuations.

and I was like, yknow what that's a valid point.

So to make prehardmode summoner marginally better to play:

Suggestion 1:
Gem staves suck. Like compared to bows of the same metal they cost more material, have mana issues, lower projectile velocities, and they do less dps overall.
So add some secondary effects to the higher tier gem staves
some suggestions:
projectile splitting
projectile bouncing(yeah ik water bolt, have the staff have less bounces?)
Higher velocity(maybe for all the staves)
Projectile ricochet(bounce from enemy to enemy, might be a bit overpowered but oh well)
Light homing(chlorophyte bullet/snowman cannon homing but like turn speed is decreased)

Suggestion 2:
Move the bloodthorn to prehardmode blood moon(either move hemogoblin shark or shuffle some drops)
It makes it a much more viable weapon, given the fact that you're on the ground more in pre-hardmode, some damage and attack speed bonuses with a mana cost decrease and it'd probably contend with the demon scythe, which is probably the only other good weapon pre-boss.

Suggestion 3:
Rework mana sickness
Sorbet explained this in his video, with mana only being an issue for one class mage just kinda sucks more due to constant ammo issues, at least early game. Sure you have that burst of high dps before your mana runs out... only it isn't high at all it's just kinda on par with the other classes, and once your resource is out you're stuck with dealing terrible damage. The overall damage of mage weapons pre-hardmode simply isn't enough, and also mana sickness punishes the player while it regenerates, which is terrible game design, even if the debuff came out years ago why hasn't it been reworked??? It's been years!

Honestly watch Sorbet's video he goes in depth about the problems with Pre-hardmode mage and why it sucks. Also this may or may not be a real priority for terraria, I just wanted to bring attention to it, because mage is a good class but only in hardmode post-mech.

 

[LisanPaez05]

I disagree

Wand of Spark is a very powerful weapon that you can find right at the beginning, no for its damage perse, but for its On Fire effect in its projectile, also is very easy to upgrade

Gem Staves are the equivalent of the Ore Swords and Ore Bows, as you pointed, but your forgetting 1 crucial detail

Swords have the higher damage, but are Melee
Bows, also have very good damage, less than Swords, but have range and limited ammo
Staves have the lesser damage, but have range and unlimited ammo

People often forget that Mage has Unlimited Ammo, that's why have lesser damage

Next, in both evil biomes, there's a mage weapon that make the boss very easy, specially the Corruption one, but against that boss specifically (and the Goblin Invasion, what will appear after the Evil Boss)

Next, Dungeon Mage Weapons (except for the Water Scepter) are Great, and one of them can be upgraded. The Water Bolt was nerfed a lot of times cause it was too strong against the WoF

And the Demon Scythe is a rare drop, but if you get it, it can carry you in HM until you get the Next Tier (same case as with the Night Edge, not sure with Range and Sum)

Also, Mage Sets are easy to craft in Pre HM (not easy as Melee, but easier than Range and Sum)

Also, you can obtain Mage Specific Accesory very early in the game (Band of Star Power, Magic Cuff and Mana Flower)

 

[WetBed]

I disagree

Wand of Spark is a very powerful weapon that you can find right at the beginning, no for its damage perse, but for its On Fire effect in its projectile, also is very easy to upgrade

Gem Staves are the equivalent of the Ore Swords and Ore Bows, as you pointed, but your forgetting 1 crucial detail

Swords have the higher damage, but are Melee
Bows, also have very good damage, less than Swords, but have range and limited ammo
Staves have the lesser damage, but have range and unlimited ammo

People often forget that Mage has Unlimited Ammo, that's why have lesser damage

Next, in both evil biomes, there's a mage weapon that make the boss very easy, specially the Corruption one, but against that boss specifically (and the Goblin Invasion, what will appear after the Evil Boss)

Next, Dungeon Mage Weapons (except for the Water Scepter) are Great, and one of them can be upgraded. The Water Bolt was nerfed a lot of times cause it was too strong against the WoF

And the Demon Scythe is a rare drop, but if you get it, it can carry you in HM until you get the Next Tier (same case as with the Night Edge, not sure with Range and Sum)

Also, Mage Sets are easy to craft in Pre HM (not easy as Melee, but easier than Range and Sum)

Also, you can obtain Mage Specific Accesory very early in the game (Band of Star Power, Magic Cuff and Mana Flower)

Dont forget about the dark chest mage loot. You can get the flamelash and fire flower. Flamelash is a great weapon for pre-hardmode

 

[Mille Marteaux]

gonna break character here a bit and not bother with capitalization and maybe be a little more snarky but earlygame magic needs help and every time i see "early demon scythe" as an argument i lose two weeks off my life. i swear pretty much every "we should improve magic somewhat" thread will always turn into demon scythe/duke fishron sequence break posting as if XxT1M0THYxX who just got terraria for christmas is going to know duke fishron even exists, let alone be able to beat the guy with pre-mech gear

we can talk about how guns and bows have limited ammo or whatever but ammo really is not a concern, you get four slots dedicated purely to ammo and a stack of 9999 musket balls is like 7 gold, which that same amount of gold iirc isn't even worth 200 super mana potions. yes you can grind them off biome mimics the same way ranged players grind materials for fancier ammo but those fancier ammo reserves tend to last quite a while.. either way you spend more gold than ranged players do to make your ammo reserves and you get a damage penalty when you use them to the point there's an entire thread about the value of mana accessories and mage dps: Mana Guide

mana never stops being a problem and its entirely because of mana sickness, even when you have mana potions you just deal with a damage debuff and if you don't want to keep up with them and you run mana flower you're giving up an accessory slot to press a button for you

also, no, you do not have unlimited ammo. run out of mana potions without a regen buff or star statue set up. go on. tell me how that plays in a boss. what, should have prepared better? same argument can be applied to a ranged weapon running out of ammo

every gem staff that isn't diamond is just a worse weapon than a diamond staff, to the point all of them are lumped together on the wiki as "Gem staves" on one page: Gem staves

but hey, demon scythe exists, why bother with the gem staves anyway? let's just not fix any of this. pog demon scythe pog

neither the theoretical ability to dig straight down and grind demons for a demon scythe nor the wacky and fun weapons in mid/late hardmode fix the problems with earlygame mage feeling bad.

a few tweaks to item crafting recipes and projectile velocity would go a long way. probably also bring space gun back up to its former glory, nerfing it as well as making it post-boss is rough.

giving each gem staff a niche or a special projectile could also help. like maybe making ruby have homing properties while diamond is just a fast forward projectile. sapphire could travel slowly and have high amounts of piercing, just all kinds of things could be done to justify the other staves. maybe they could all be combined into one big super gem staff to justify them. who knows.

---

this is me just kinda yappin beyond the scope of earlygame mage but personally speaking if it were up to me i'd just make mana flower (or some theoretical upgrade to it) grant mana sickness immunity so it's actually worth considering in your accessories

"but laser machine gun" who cares man. like yes mage gets spectre hood but it doesn't even work on the final boss let them have this. terra blade doesn't have to give up an accessory slot to fire a beam every swing let them go crazy

anyone serious about avoiding mana sickenss to that degree is gluing themselves to a spike with magic/celestial cuffs or to a star statue engine anyway

 

[J Bame]

Gem staves suck. Like compared to bows of the same metal they cost more material, have mana issues, lower projectile velocities, and they do less dps overall.
So add some secondary effects to the higher tier gem staves
some suggestions:
projectile splitting
projectile bouncing(yeah ik water bolt, have the staff have less bounces?)
Higher velocity(maybe for all the staves)
Projectile ricochet(bounce from enemy to enemy, might be a bit overpowered but oh well)
Light homing(chlorophyte bullet/snowman cannon homing but like turn speed is decreased)

They are fine, they are the first generic magic weapon you get, they don't need to be fun or interesting, they need to be simple and accessible, which they are.

Suggestion 2:
Move the bloodthorn to prehardmode blood moon(either move hemogoblin shark or shuffle some drops)
It makes it a much more viable weapon, given the fact that you're on the ground more in pre-hardmode, some damage and attack speed bonuses with a mana cost decrease and it'd probably contend with the demon scythe, which is probably the only other good weapon pre-boss.

Then the hardmode blood moon has one enemy and one weapon before its "Boss", dont think this is a good idea.

there are a lot of generic, forgettable and overall mediocre magic weapons in Early Hardmode that could be retiered to prehardmode for variety. Frost Staff, Poison Staff and Magic Dagger come to mind.

Rework mana sickness
Sorbet explained this in his video, with mana only being an issue for one class mage just kinda sucks more due to constant ammo issues, at least early game. Sure you have that burst of high dps before your mana runs out... only it isn't high at all it's just kinda on par with the other classes, and once your resource is out you're stuck with dealing terrible damage. The overall damage of mage weapons pre-hardmode simply isn't enough, and also mana sickness punishes the player while it regenerates, which is terrible game design, even if the debuff came out years ago why hasn't it been reworked??? It's been years!

Mana is imperfect but also isn't the cause of any issue with magic. Leave it as is, it's better to add more variety and options to prehardmode before skeletron.

 

[Fidget]

What I always hated about early-game mage is how annoying the gem staves can be to get despite them being the "default and weak" weapon when you can't get a wand of sparking early. Certain gems are tied to particular metals and there's no guarantee they'll generate in your world together. If you find a ton of diamonds and have gold spawn then you're fresh out of luck unless you get to fishing (or shimmer it? Can't remember if that transmutes the metal or outright downgrades it.) In any case the damage isn't the issue if the staffs aren't even guaranteed in the first place. You've got a very high chance of seeing at least one viable combination of gems and metals but that pales in comparison to bows and swords which are just guaranteed no matter what.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

They are fine, they are the first generic magic weapon you get, they don't need to be fun or interesting, they need to be simple and accessible, which they are.

my issue with the gem staves is mostly the material cost requirements are kinda wacky compared to just making a bow despite them being the generic first weapon. i'd rather the starting magic item be a basic magic wand you can make with wood and a fallen star (then you can craft that into wand of sparking with some torches after beating up slimes i guess. whoa we have magic progression now)

i'd also like to see the gem staves get a phasesaber treatment and just all have the same stats so you just aren't objectively worse at casting because you can only find amethysts (though i'd also apply this logic to the robes since i just run meteorite to pretend its extra defense matters)

i do believe a lot (A LOT) of the earlygame magic friction does come from unintended "pure class" playthroughs that don't want to use their starter equipment to get gear at all. i don't think these should be the primary thing balanced around since they're an entirely optional challenge but adding some kind of accessibility with these in mind so you can do something other than helplessly throw yourself at the caverns looking for specific gems and ore combos would help a lot

(or something like core keeper's character background traits where you can just start with a basic weapon of that archetype to forego other basic tools. like if you could just start with a wand of sparking instead of a copper shortsword few people would care, i think)

there are a lot of generic, forgettable and overall mediocre magic weapons in Early Hardmode that could be retiered to prehardmode for variety. Frost Staff, Poison Staff and Magic Dagger come to mind.

phm magic dagger would be nice. phm poison staff would also kinda rule since then you'd get one and see it as a material and think maybe to come back to spider caves later

 

[Kittycat7070]

gem staffs cost significantly more to make (requiring a bunch of gems that can take a lot longer to find) on top of just the ores themselves and are still worse than crafting a bow and, on top of that, are limited by mana, so I think a general sweeping buff to all of them is very needed. Unlike ore bows, they are very unreliable.

(or something like core keeper's character background traits where you can just start with a basic weapon of that archetype to forego other basic tools. like if you could just start with a wand of sparking instead of a copper shortsword few people would care, i think)

Something like this would be great, since not getting a wand of sparking can really hurt earlygame mage

overall, just the difficulty of obtaining your first decent weapon as a mage if you dont get wand of sparking is a lot more work than other classes so i feel like a wand of sparking recipe and some gem stave buffs would go a long way to making early preboss mage more bearable

 

[Dapling]

or something like core keeper's character background traits where you can just start with a basic weapon of that archetype to forego other basic tools. like if you could just start with a wand of sparking instead of a copper shortsword few people would care, i think)

Honestly the ability to just choose a wood chest item to start out with sounds really fun. I’m not actually sure if starting with any of them really breaks the game.

 

[DestinedToWander]

I disagree

Wand of Spark is a very powerful weapon that you can find right at the beginning, no for its damage perse, but for its On Fire effect in its projectile, also is very easy to upgrade

Gem Staves are the equivalent of the Ore Swords and Ore Bows, as you pointed, but your forgetting 1 crucial detail

Swords have the higher damage, but are Melee
Bows, also have very good damage, less than Swords, but have range and limited ammo
Staves have the lesser damage, but have range and unlimited ammo

People often forget that Mage has Unlimited Ammo, that's why have lesser damage

Next, in both evil biomes, there's a mage weapon that make the boss very easy, specially the Corruption one, but against that boss specifically (and the Goblin Invasion, what will appear after the Evil Boss)

Next, Dungeon Mage Weapons (except for the Water Scepter) are Great, and one of them can be upgraded. The Water Bolt was nerfed a lot of times cause it was too strong against the WoF

And the Demon Scythe is a rare drop, but if you get it, it can carry you in HM until you get the Next Tier (same case as with the Night Edge, not sure with Range and Sum)

Also, Mage Sets are easy to craft in Pre HM (not easy as Melee, but easier than Range and Sum)

Also, you can obtain Mage Specific Accesory very early in the game (Band of Star Power, Magic Cuff and Mana Flower)

... you didn't watch the analysis video did you.

 

[LisanPaez05]

... you didn't watch the analysis video did you.

I read your suggestion

 

[Golden Heretic Snakeboat]

i think my issue with the whole "but early demon scythe" argument is the fact that if your class is only worth using if you skip the majority of the content and go straight to the endgame, then your class is probably bad

and that's not even considering the fact that that's not even a very compelling argument to begin with since every class can do the exact same thing. it's like saying that summoner class is actually a good class at the very start of the game because you can "just get snapthorn" instead of citing any of the actual reasons the class is good, or saying "just get boomstick" when someone tells you that the ranged class is bad at the start of the game.

most of the underground jungle loot isn't locked behind any bosses, sure it's a massive beef gate that'll tell you to off and come back later after painting the walls with your entrails, but it's just a beef gate, and those can be avoided with enough persistence. it's the exact same case with the demon scythe; it's technically a pre-boss weapon, but it's locked behind the significant beef gate that is the underworld, and it's balanced for when you're supposed to storm that gate head-on.

 

[LisanPaez05]

I don't know why they say you have to skip to the Underworld in order of obtain the Demon Scythe

Is not like the game is unplayable as mage if you don't do that

 

[Dapling]

I don't know why they say you have to skip to the Underworld in order of obtain the Demon Scythe

Is not like the game is unplayable as mage if you don't do that

Mage has a grand total of 4 relevant weapons before any bosses besides demon scythe (vilethorn/crimson rod, diamond staff, wand of frosting, and thunder zapper) and none of them are particularly good for getting further into the game. They have a downside of using mana during a point of the game where mana potions aren’t that good yet, and only average dps at best, which means high risk, mid reward. (Crimson rod is the only exception, but it’s also a sidearm rather than something meant to be spammed like the others to begin with)

Compare this to melee which has absolute beasts like Starfury, or ranger which has a lot of consistent and/or decent options, or summoner with more minions to choose from than any other single tier in the whole game as well as by far the best pre-boss armor in the form of flinx coat, and it makes perfect sense for mage to receive a buff so it can catch up to everything else.

 

[LisanPaez05]

Don't see the problem with the inefficient use of mana in an early point of the game, is like the main idea, grow stronger through the game

Is not like the other class are perfect in Pre HM either

The only arrows that are worth to farm in Pre HM are Jester arrows and Hellfire arrows, the "DPS meter" is supposing you have 100% accuracy what is simply no true

Summoner has an awful start, The Flinch is just bad and the leather whip almost don't do enough damage in comparison to the other classes at the same point until you get the Flinx (or however is written, that fluffy thing of the Tundra) or Frog, the Wasp and the Demon misses all the time, the Tag idea is Tag faster in order for your summons to hit harder, that's why there's only 1 set that is Whip Specific, is not the idea

And Melee, it's correct, has a lot of good weapons, but people forget that you have to approach to the enemies and most probably receive a hit, and if don't take care enough you'll die, don't tell you are not terrified of being to near to Wall of Flesh while playing as Melee, aren't you?

This kind of suggestions make feel like the person who say it did not play mage in a long time or Terraria (in general), don't know why. Or they simply are so veteran that forgot how enjoy the game if they are not make everything efficient or can't do an only-1-class challenge

 

[Snail]

The real issue, and its only a slight issue, is that staffs are weirdly balanced with the alt metal being better in every way and there's no staff made after you beat the world evil boss.

I think that's the only change you need to make;

Buff up the weaker metal staffs to the level of their counterparts, like how adamantite is no longer just worse titanium,

Add new staffs for demonite/scales and crimtate/tissues, maybe hellstone too? i just hate demon scythe being an rng drop.

 

[Dapling]

Don't see the problem with the inefficient use of mana in an early point of the game, is like the main idea, grow stronger through the game

Is not like the other class are perfect in Pre HM either

Because the use of mana gives mage weapons unavoidable downtime, which simply isn’t a mechanic that the other 3 classes have to worry about. Mage would do comparable dps to the other classes by this point if they had no downtime at all.

The only arrows that are worth to farm in Pre HM are Jester arrows and Hellfire arrows, the "DPS meter" is supposing you have 100% accuracy what is simply no true

Ranger has guns in prehardmode and unlike in hardmode they’re even better than bows. The Undertaker also is actually particularly notable here as it’s even stronger than the Musket after its buff (people don’t realize this because it was weaker than musket for over half a decade). There’s also Grenades and other thrown weapons. I didn’t say that they were overpowered dps wise or anything, just that ranger has a lot of options that are consistent and decent. And ranger at this point of the game is nothing if not consistent and decent. Again, this class doesn’t have a mechanic that forces downtime mid-fight either. Even bows have Shimmer arrows and Frostburn arrows, the latter of which’s debuff is so ridiculously early enough that it can actually matter for once. Kinda strange that you forgot about Shimmer arrows considering they do the second highest damage out of any prehardmode arrow type, but they’re fairly new, so maybe you just hadn’t seen them yet.

Summoner has an awful start, The Flinch is just bad and the leather whip almost don't do enough damage in comparison to the other classes at the same point until you get the Flinx (or however is written, that fluffy thing of the Tundra) or Frog, the Wasp and the Demon misses all the time, the Tag idea is Tag faster in order for your summons to hit harder, that's why there's only 1 set that is Whip Specific, is not the idea

Flinx is fairly easy to get because you can just get Abigail right at the start of the game and she’s even easier to obtain than finch. Abigail is fairly new tho so maybe you’re just not used to that part of the meta yet. Hornet and Imp are irrelevant to this conversation because I was referring to pre-boss, and mage actually finally gets moving by the time both of those minions are available.

And Melee, it's correct, has a lot of good weapons, but people forget that you have to approach to the enemies and most probably receive a hit, and if don't take care enough you'll die, don't tell you are not terrified of being to near to Wall of Flesh while playing as Melee, aren't you?

I’m completely comfortable being near to wall of flesh while playing as melee. Night’s Edge can protect from the hungries using knockback and molten armor has enough defense to make the lasers deal damage in the single digits. Either way it’s irrelevant because wall of flesh is past the point of the game where mage finally gets good options. Also, you don’t have to approach enemies that much with melee. Starfury can hit anywhere onscreen and has the dps to back itself up, flails do pretty decent burst damage and have middling range (they’re certainly more safe to use than the exceptionally low-velocity diamond staff or the vilethorn with its low range). Also, even if you did have to approach as melee, defense is stronger in this part of the game than any other point in progression, which means you can afford to take some hits (yes, even in master).

This kind of suggestions make feel like the person who say it did not play mage in a long time or Terraria (in general), don't know why. Or they simply are so veteran that forgot how enjoy the game if they are not make everything efficient or can't do an only-1-class challenge

Honestly, this whole response makes me feel like you haven’t played the game in a while either. 1.4.3 added a new minion which finally cemented summoner’s place as a decent class in earlygame with options that are easy to obtain and good stepping stones for getting Flinx (which can be obtained without progression skipping unlike demon scythe). 1.4.4 buffed a ton of melee weapons to be safe at a decent range, and you also completely neglected to notice shimmer arrows earlier which were also added in 1.4.4. Notice how recent all these versions are? I feel like most of your takes here came from an outdated version of the game with how much they apply to versions older than 1.4.3 especially. Hell, mage was actually good in earlygame in versions even older than that, because for a long time meteorites were pre boss!

 

[Therabil Elithimon]

I personally feel the gem staves could learn a thing or two from the spell tome weapons, which feel really good to use from my experience.

 

[ggyt]

Suggestion 1:
Gem staves suck. Like compared to bows of the same metal they cost more material, have mana issues, lower projectile velocities, and they do less dps overall.
So add some secondary effects to the higher tier gem staves
some suggestions:
projectile splitting
projectile bouncing(yeah ik water bolt, have the staff have less bounces?)
Higher velocity(maybe for all the staves)
Projectile ricochet(bounce from enemy to enemy, might be a bit overpowered but oh well)
Light homing(chlorophyte bullet/snowman cannon homing but like turn speed is decreased)

The mechanics of gem staves are fine, just buff the damage and maybe the velocity. No need to make them fancy.

Honestly all you need to fix pre-hardmode mage is to buff gem staves and then add more pre-skeletron hell/jungle/evil weapons. Maybe make king slime drop a magic weapon, that could be cool.

Honestly the ability to just choose a wood chest item to start out with sounds really fun. I’m not actually sure if starting with any of them really breaks the game.

Terrible idea that should stay in the realm of modded.
One of the most fun parts of Terraria is exploration and letting the game choose your weapons and gear for you. I don't want to be forced to choose early game chest loot at the start of the game, and more than that it would feel out of place: Terraria feels like a game where you start with nothing and become very powerful, and it should stay that way.

neither the theoretical ability to dig straight down and grind demons for a demon scythe

I agree that the demon scythe shouldn't be an excuse for the rest of pre-hardmode mage being bad, but it's definitely not a "theoretical ability" lmao. Demons are not at all difficult to deal with pre-boss; their projectiles are slow and very easy to dodge, and the other hell enemies aren't that annoying.

Flinx is fairly easy to get because you can just get Abigail right at the start of the game and she’s even easier to obtain than finch. Abigail is fairly new tho so maybe you’re just not used to that part of the meta yet. Hornet and Imp are irrelevant to this conversation because I was referring to pre-boss, and mage actually finally gets moving by the time both of those minions are available.

Abigail is super annoying to farm especially on hardcore.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

I agree that the demon scythe shouldn't be an excuse for the rest of pre-hardmode mage being bad, but it's definitely not a "theoretical ability" lmao. Demons are not at all difficult to deal with pre-boss; their projectiles are slow and very easy to dodge, and the other hell enemies aren't that annoying.

oh yeah no i'm not saying it's difficult to do, i just say its a theoretical because it isn't intuitive to natural gameplay progression

i think the ability to head somewhere you aren't quite intended to be at early and grab a weapon is cool, but it shouldn't feel like every other option you have is so mediocre that you feel it's the only option you have

someone running in there as soon as they can with a topaz staff or whatever isn't going to have a problem with the demons as much as they will the bone serpents and fire imps and that's more of a master+ thing anyway