Game Mechanics Pre-hardmode Mage is terrible ~Sorbet Cafe

[LisanPaez05]

Abigail is super annoying to farm especially on hardcore.

Yeah, you can try to farm her only 1 time hahaha

 

[ggyt]

Yeah, you can try to farm her only 1 time hahaha

On hardcore npcs drop tombstones when they die, but killing npcs is annoying early game because until you get a flymeal (which I only discovered exists recently) you're stuck with lava, and regardless you have to wait for them to respawn.

 

[LisanPaez05]

On hardcore npcs drop tombstones when they die, but killing npcs is annoying early game because until you get a flymeal (which I only discovered exists recently) you're stuck with lava, and regardless you have to wait for them to respawn.

Really? Didn't know that, since when?

(I played Hardcore in older versions, so I don't know if it's a new feature or I just simply don't remember)

 

[ggyt]

Really? Didn't know that, since when?

(I played Hardcore in older versions, so I don't know if it's a new feature or I just simply don't remember)

Since 1.4, as tombstones now have a functional purpose.

 

[Dapling]

Terrible idea that should stay in the realm of modded.
One of the most fun parts of Terraria is exploration and letting the game choose your weapons and gear for you. I don't want to be forced to choose early game chest loot at the start of the game, and more than that it would feel out of place: Terraria feels like a game where you start with nothing and become very powerful, and it should stay that way.

I'm sorry, but I absolutely do not see any semblance of logic here when you already can choose between your standard set of 3 copper tools and this in vanilla:

Like, come on. You already demonstrate that you have enough self control to not be "forced" into choosing a wood chest item every single time you generate a character that isn't a Journey mode one named Wolfpet. I absolutely do not believe that you would overthink and optimize to the point that taking a Radar or Wooden Boomerang is non-negotiable for the start of every playthrough moving forward if this was added. If anything this idea is more natural than what's already in the game, so don't give me that "this would feel out of place" or "modded" bull.

Abigail is super annoying to farm especially on hardcore.

If you're on hardcore you probably aren't classlocking to begin with, as hardcore is already considered to be a major challenge run by itself, and classlocking restricts the player's options to a significant degree. Outside of hardcore you absolutely want to make a graveyard as soon as possible due to the many tools available from it found nowhere else in the game, so Abigail is more of a bonus at that point.

 

[Dapling]

While I agree with the message (and I'd even like to say it's almost unfair that the player's starting weapon is always melee rather than their class of choice) I cannot say I stand behind the tone of this comment.

That's... probably fair. I got unreasonably angry because I have a pretty long history with people calling suggestions "modded" simply because they don't like them. I apologize if it was uncalled for.

 

[ggyt]

Like, come on. You already demonstrate that you have enough self control to not be "forced" into choosing a wood chest item every single time you generate a character that isn't a Journey mode one named Wolfpet.

There's a difference between choosing a difficulty setting when starting a playthrough and being forced to self-regulate the difficulty after the game starts. I shouldn't be forced to discard items the game gives me just to have a normal playthrough.

I absolutely do not believe that you would overthink and optimize to the point that taking a Radar or Wooden Boomerang is non-negotiable for the start of every playthrough moving forward if this was added.

I absolutely would optimize this. Ever since the shimmer was added I almost never goblin-reforge craftable items, I will go through the painstakingly boring process of fishing in order to get my 1-3 frog legs, I definitely would optimize choosing my starting item.

If anything this idea is more natural than what's already in the game, so don't give me that "this would feel out of place" or "modded" bull.

It absolutely is a "modded" thing, this is what Calamity does, it gives you a starter bag of items and takes away the joy of finding your first weapons. It's one of the things that made me instantly dislike Calamity. It's definitely not a "natural" thing for Terraria. Most of the time when you kill a boss you will get a random item and not have the choice to choose, and that's one of my favourite parts of the game. I wouldn't pick the flairon or RBT over the Tsunami but the game is gracious enough to give me those weapons and let me have some variety in the weapons I use (I wouldn't fight fishron twice because aside from the tempest staff the tsunami is only mildly better than the alternatives and I like variety.)

If you're on hardcore you probably aren't classlocking to begin with, as hardcore is already considered to be a major challenge run by itself, and classlocking restricts the player's options to a significant degree. Outside of hardcore you absolutely want to make a graveyard as soon as possible due to the many tools available from it found nowhere else in the game, so Abigail is more of a bonus at that point.

I play mostly hardcore and yes, I don't classlock, but that doesn't mean that the classes shouldn't be relatively balanced.

 

[Dapling]

There's a difference between choosing a difficulty setting when starting a playthrough and being forced to self-regulate the difficulty after the game starts. I shouldn't be forced to discard items the game gives me just to have a normal playthrough.

If that's your issue with the idea then it seems like you probably misunderstood what it was (I wasn't too clear on how it would work logistically so I understand that). The intent behind the idea is that you could select a single wooden chest item on the character creation screen or that you could leave that part blank and get nothing at all once the game starts. This is why I drew that parallel to journey mode.

I absolutely would optimize this. Ever since the shimmer was added I almost never goblin-reforge craftable items, I will go through the painstakingly boring process of fishing in order to get my 1-3 frog legs, I definitely would optimize choosing my starting item.

Why don't you optimize further by choosing journey mode, then? I'm curious as to why it's different here when it's the "optimal" choice in most situations (there are situations where it isn't like if you want a Hardcore Ghost's utility for something, or if you really feel like you'll need your copper shortsword to get squire slime immediately, but I can't think of much else besides self-regulated difficulty)

It absolutely is a "modded" thing, this is what Calamity does, it gives you a starter bag of items and takes away the joy of finding your first weapons. It's one of the things that made me instantly dislike Calamity. It's definitely not a "natural" thing for Terraria. Most of the time when you kill a boss you will get a random item and not have the choice to choose, and that's one of my favourite parts of the game. I wouldn't pick the flairon or RBT over the Tsunami but the game is gracious enough to give me those weapons and let me have some variety in the weapons I use (I wouldn't fight fishron twice because I'm not grinding sorry.)

Calamity's starter bag looks like this (20 items minimum assuming the items you get multiple of count as just 1)

(I cropped out the various vanity items because most characters don't get them and they don't do much anyway)

This idea would let you choose 1 of these (and only 1) or nothing at all:

Optimal choice here is actually pretty difficult to decide and extremely subjective, as pretty much all of these items boil down to either slightly easier earlygame, or marginally reduce grinding for "super accessories" later without much earlygame utility to speak of, with different situations where you'd want to take each. I'd actually be partial to Step Stool, Umbrella, or Blowpipe myself.

Point is, this isn't really adjacent to calamity's starter bag at all. I'd say it's at the opposite end of the spectrum, with Journey Mode's starting inventory being between the two.

I play mostly hardcore and yes, I don't classlock, but that doesn't mean that the classes shouldn't be relatively balanced.

That we can agree on. More options is always better.

 

[LisanPaez05]

Add an starting chest perse sounds like a bad idea

It's true that the player is obligated to start as Melee, but this is something what cames since the beginning, when Mana weapons were something rare and powerful, and Range weapons were like a "secondary" source of damage

Nowadays, Mage and Ranger are just other classes as Melee, and recently also Summoner ("recently", Summoner as a Class is still "new thing")

Sounds reasonable add new options

1 solution (better than a free chest) could be add a "initial class" option when you're creating a character

Copper Short Sword for Melee
Wand of Sparking or Amatista Stave for Mage
Flinch Staff or Leather Whip for Summoner (or maybe a brand new turret)
And a Copper Bow for Ranger (with some arrows)

And the Pickaxe and the Axe, of course

 

[ggyt]

Why don't you optimize further by choosing journey mode, then? I'm curious as to why it's different here when it's the "optimal" choice in most situations (there are situations where it isn't like if you want a Hardcore Ghost's utility for something, or if you really feel like you'll need your copper shortsword to get squire slime immediately, but I can't think of much else besides self-regulated difficulty)

I like to choose my difficulty before the game starts, and then just not worry about it when playing the game.

If that's your issue with the idea then it seems like you probably misunderstood what it was (I wasn't too clear on how it would work logistically so I understand that). The intent behind the idea is that you could select a single wooden chest item on the character creation screen or that you could leave that part blank and get nothing at all once the game starts. This is why I drew that parallel to journey mode.

This might be okay, but why have this as part of the game? It would just clutter up the character creation system and be potentially confusing to new players who don't know what any of these items are. If you really feel like you need a bonus item you can just terrasavr one in.

1 solution (better than a free chest) could be add a "initial class" option when you're creating a character

I don't like this idea because it reinforces the idea that you should do class playthroughs. I think the classes should be relatively balanced in terms of weapons, accessories and viability but I don't like the idea of choosing a class when playing the game, that's too RPG-like for my tastes. (Actually, I don't like Terraria's class system in general but that's for another topic.)

 

[Dapling]

This might be okay, but why have this as part of the game? It would just clutter up the character creation system and be potentially confusing to new players who don't know what any of these items are. If you really feel like you need a bonus item you can just terrasavr one in.

That's true. I think a way to fix that would be to maybe flesh it out first so that there's enough substance to clearly separate it from everything else in its own tab (I do have ideas for more advanced settings unrelated to items which might also go there), but that sounds like too much scope for what I was initially trying to do with it so I may make a separate thread for it if I ever end up doing that rather than continuing to talk about it here.

Either way, I do think it's kinda dancing around the problem (which is that there aren't enough earlygame magic weapons that aren't blatantly worse copies of other weapons). So even if you don't agree that mage is underpowered at this point of the game, you may be able to see the content vacuum present there.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

I got unreasonably angry because I have a pretty long history with people calling suggestions "modded" simply because they don't like them.

This is a very fair stance to take because I feel the same way. I don't like how "ooh this sounds modded haha" is being treated like some gotcha moment argument now, especially when there are features in vanilla Terraria that came about because of mods, as well as members on the Re-Logic development staff that were hired specifically because of their aptitude displayed from modding Terraria.

Mods can, and do, have good ideas. Good ideas should be considered for implementation, end of.

As someone who used to be very outspoken back in older community niches, I just have to say that your passion is understandable, but when you let it boil over into frustration and run unchecked, coarse language can often cheapen the points you want to make.


Anyway, back on topic, I think a Vilethorn/Crimson Rod craft similar to Panic Necklace into Band of Starpower would be nice as well. I'm actually having a fair amount of fun positioning around my Crimson Rod clouds, but not having access to Vilethorn feels like missing one of the core foundational items of what makes magic.. well, magic.

 

[Dapling]

This is a very fair stance to take because I feel the same way. I don't like how "ooh this sounds modded haha" is being treated like some gotcha moment argument now, especially when there are features in vanilla Terraria that came about because of mods, as well as members on the Re-Logic development staff that were hired specifically because of their aptitude displayed from modding Terraria.

Mods can, and do, have good ideas. Good ideas should be considered for implementation, end of.

As someone who used to be very outspoken back in older community niches, I just have to say that your passion is understandable, but when you let it boil over into frustration and run unchecked, coarse language can often cheapen the points you want to make.


Anyway, back on topic, I think a Vilethorn/Crimson Rod craft similar to Panic Necklace into Band of Starpower would be nice as well. I'm actually having a fair amount of fun positioning around my Crimson Rod clouds, but not having access to Vilethorn feels like missing one of the core foundational items of what makes magic.. well, magic.

The last straw for me realizing that I didn't like that phrase was Shimmer, which feels so far removed from everything else in the whole game mechanically that it feels "too modded" for many actual mods, while still managing to be one of the most popular additions regardless.

 

[ggyt]

That's... probably fair. I got unreasonably angry because I have a pretty long history with people calling suggestions "modded" simply because they don't like them. I apologize if it was uncalled for.

I don't like how "ooh this sounds modded haha" is being treated like some gotcha moment argument now, especially when there are features in vanilla Terraria that came about because of mods

When I said that that idea should "stay in the realm of modded" I didn't mean that it was bad just because it is similar to something from a mod. What I meant is that the bar for how balanced and well an idea fits into the game for it to be implemented is and should be much lower for mods than for the base game. If a certain mod wants to add a summon damage penalty to enforce a single-class playstyle I don't care, but it definitely shouldn't be in the base game. Similarly, I don't care if a mod adds a starter bag, but it shouldn't be added to the base game.

 

[WellDoneSteak]

so I watched this video recently:

by Sorbet Cafe
He talks about the 4 classes and states that mage is the worst class, especially pre-hardmode/pre-boss with really no good weapons other than the demon scythe, which makes for very one-dimensional playthroughs. In addition to this, early game means mana is a massive problem, because you're dealing less dps on average compared to the other classes, which all have a decently solid option with very little damage fluctuations.

and I was like, yknow what that's a valid point.

So to make prehardmode summoner marginally better to play:

Suggestion 1:
Gem staves suck. Like compared to bows of the same metal they cost more material, have mana issues, lower projectile velocities, and they do less dps overall.
So add some secondary effects to the higher tier gem staves
some suggestions:
projectile splitting
projectile bouncing(yeah ik water bolt, have the staff have less bounces?)
Higher velocity(maybe for all the staves)
Projectile ricochet(bounce from enemy to enemy, might be a bit overpowered but oh well)
Light homing(chlorophyte bullet/snowman cannon homing but like turn speed is decreased)

Suggestion 2:
Move the bloodthorn to prehardmode blood moon(either move hemogoblin shark or shuffle some drops)
It makes it a much more viable weapon, given the fact that you're on the ground more in pre-hardmode, some damage and attack speed bonuses with a mana cost decrease and it'd probably contend with the demon scythe, which is probably the only other good weapon pre-boss.

Suggestion 3:
Rework mana sickness
Sorbet explained this in his video, with mana only being an issue for one class mage just kinda sucks more due to constant ammo issues, at least early game. Sure you have that burst of high dps before your mana runs out... only it isn't high at all it's just kinda on par with the other classes, and once your resource is out you're stuck with dealing terrible damage. The overall damage of mage weapons pre-hardmode simply isn't enough, and also mana sickness punishes the player while it regenerates, which is terrible game design, even if the debuff came out years ago why hasn't it been reworked??? It's been years!

Honestly watch Sorbet's video he goes in depth about the problems with Pre-hardmode mage and why it sucks. Also this may or may not be a real priority for terraria, I just wanted to bring attention to it, because mage is a good class but only in hardmode post-mech.

"make prehardmode summoner marginally better to play"
don't you mean mage?

 

[LisanPaez05]

I just figured out something

Mana Sickness isn't just an annoy mechanic, is to prevent players to spam powerful attacks without pause

 

[Coleyohley]

I just figured out something

Mana Sickness isn't just an annoy mechanic, is to prevent players to spam powerful attacks without pause

It fails at its job, as most weapons only lose about 10% of their damage to it when you have a halfway-decent magic setup (~300 mana, Clairvoyance, perhaps a reforge with mana cost reduction). The average damage loss for the duration of the debuff, as long as you don't drink another potion before it wears off, is 12.5%, since it degrades linearly in potency over the course of its duration, and most magic weapons will continue firing for several more seconds with full damage before you'll need to drink another potion, which further reduces the average damage loss. If you want more numbers, here you go.

These attacks, as demonstrated, are also not particularly powerful either when compared to options from other classes. Completely removing mana from the game and letting magic weapons shoot for free would really not change very much balance-wise.

EDIT: That last sentence is primarily directed at Hardmode, as Mana Potions in prehardmode are terrible and some magic weapons will consume all the mana provided from the potion before the penalty wears off. In these cases, yes, Mana Sickness is a huge damage loss and you are better off using Mana Regen Potions and treating your mana as a stamina bar rather than simply ignoring the penalty and drinking another potion.

 

[J Bame]

This topic gained a lot of attention recently so i tested Magic weapons myself to see where exactly preHardmode mage is right now.

I gathered a lot of killtimes against Expert Eye Of Cthulhu, this will give us a very good idea of the practical DPS of all classes.

So, now let me tackle the points made in this thread one by one

The biggest one, do the gem staves need a buff? Absolutely not. They are in fact very good weapons thanks to their good DPS and pierce, but more importantly their ability to double hit bosses thanks to their large hurtboxes. They only lose to the Ranged guns, one of which is Jungle tier, and also agreed to be an overpowered weapon by the balance community (boomstick), and another pair which got overbuffed last update (musket/undertaker)

Are mage weapons underpowered as a whole? As stated above the gem staves are perfectly fine. The DPS of vilethorn is surprisingly good, given that single target DPS isnt what it's made for, and Crimson rod adds a lot of DPS if used properly. Thunder zapper is the only one arguably underpowered here, given that it loses the pierce of the gem staves in exchange for only a little more single target DPS, really not worth it overall given the RNG and the difficulty of the underground desert. Even the Wand of Frosting did very well.

Is the Demon Scythe a valid preboss weapon? Well the fact that it is by far the best option tested here, being the fastest killtime and almost 50% better than the second fastest, speaks for itself. It's really just a testament that the underworld needs to be harder.

Is mage screwed over by worlds that generated with Platinum instead of Gold, locking you to Ruby Staff instead of Platinum staff? I only tested each staff once, but Platinum Staff actually ended up getting a slower killtime than Ruby Staff. This means that the difference between Ruby and Platinum Staff is smaller than the variance in killtimes produced by missed shots, Damage variance, and the random nature of crits this early in the game.

Does the existence of Mana make mage inherently weaker than other classes, who dont have such a mechanic putting a limit to their DPS? The people who say this also love quoting that one thread that shows how unimpactful mana is in this game...

Is it a problem that Mage lacks "S tier" options like Boomstick and Starfury? Well... this one is harder. I dont know if you really want every single class to be OP in its own right, or if you want the S tier weapons nerfed, but i think that if the worst part of mage is that it has the least amount of overpowered weapons, then Mage is actually pretty balanced. Besides, mage has by far the two best armors at this stage: The Wizard set, with 15% dps increase and a ton of mana, and the Defense of Gold Armor on even better stats than Wizard set (Jungle Armor). Isn't that enough? Im not sure.

Does mage need more options? Unfortunately, yes. I barely tested half of what both melee and ranged have to offer, but more importantly, the only weapons that mage gets inbetween Pre-boss and Post Skeletron are Weather Pain, Space Gun, and Bee Gun. This selection is very sad, and it means mage spends half of prehardmode with the same weapons you use on the Eye of Cthulhu.

But, i believe i narrowed down our problems here. We need more prehardmode magic weapons. Give us one or two more options for preboss, add a weapon you can craft with Demonite/Crimtane, give us something better than Space Gun right after the evil bosses. The later half of prehardmode has more magic weapons than the previous half, even if the former is just two short tiers, being just the Dungeon and the Underworld. I dont have the tests for it right now, but im sure that the middle of Prehardmode, with Demon Scythe excluded, is actually the worst time to be a mage.

 

[Asternove]

This topic gained a lot of attention recently so i tested Magic weapons myself to see where exactly preHardmode mage is right now.

I gathered a lot of killtimes against Expert Eye Of Cthulhu, this will give us a very good idea of the practical DPS of all classes.

View attachment 492084

So, now let me tackle the points made in this thread one by one

The biggest one, do the gem staves need a buff? Absolutely not. They are in fact very good weapons thanks to their good DPS and pierce, but more importantly their ability to double hit bosses thanks to their large hurtboxes. They only lose to the Ranged guns, one of which is Jungle tier, and also agreed to be an overpowered weapon by the balance community (boomstick), and another pair which got overbuffed last update (musket/undertaker)

Are mage weapons underpowered as a whole? As stated above the gem staves are perfectly fine. The DPS of vilethorn is surprisingly good, given that single target DPS isnt what it's made for, and Crimson rod adds a lot of DPS if used properly. Thunder zapper is the only one arguably underpowered here, given that it loses the pierce of the gem staves in exchange for only a little more single target DPS, really not worth it overall given the RNG and the difficulty of the underground desert. Even the Wand of Frosting did very well.

Is the Demon Scythe a valid preboss weapon? Well the fact that it is by far the best option tested here, being the fastest killtime and almost 50% better than the second fastest, speaks for itself. It's really just a testament that the underworld needs to be harder.

Is mage screwed over by worlds that generated with Platinum instead of Gold, locking you to Ruby Staff instead of Platinum staff? I only tested each staff once, but Platinum Staff actually ended up getting a slower killtime than Ruby Staff. This means that the difference between Ruby and Platinum Staff is smaller than the variance in killtimes produced by missed shots, Damage variance, and the random nature of crits this early in the game.

Does the existence of Mana make mage inherently weaker than other classes, who dont have such a mechanic putting a limit to their DPS? The people who say this also love quoting that one thread that shows how unimpactful mana is in this game...

Is it a problem that Mage lacks "S tier" options like Boomstick and Starfury? Well... this one is harder. I dont know if you really want every single class to be OP in its own right, or if you want the S tier weapons nerfed, but i think that if the worst part of mage is that it has the least amount of overpowered weapons, then Mage is actually pretty balanced. Besides, mage has by far the two best armors at this stage: The Wizard set, with 15% dps increase and a ton of mana, and the Defense of Gold Armor on even better stats than Wizard set (Jungle Armor). Isn't that enough? Im not sure.

Does mage need more options? Unfortunately, yes. I barely tested half of what both melee and ranged have to offer, but more importantly, the only weapons that mage gets inbetween Pre-boss and Post Skeletron are Weather Pain, Space Gun, and Bee Gun. This selection is very sad, and it means mage spends half of prehardmode with the same weapons you use on the Eye of Cthulhu.

But, i believe i narrowed down our problems here. We need more prehardmode magic weapons. Give us one or two more options for preboss, add a weapon you can craft with Demonite/Crimtane, give us something better than Space Gun right after the evil bosses. The later half of prehardmode has more magic weapons than the previous half, even if the former is just two short tiers, being just the Dungeon and the Underworld. I dont have the tests for it right now, but im sure that the middle of Prehardmode, with Demon Scythe excluded, is actually the worst time to be a mage.

Yeah. If you have time, I’d like to see performance on Skeletron. There are little to no good Mage options for him.

 

[Coleyohley]

Does the existence of Mana make mage inherently weaker than other classes, who dont have such a mechanic putting a limit to their DPS? The people who say this also love quoting that one thread that shows how unimpactful mana is in this game...

I am quite fond of quoting that guide, I will admit. However, that guide also says that mana potions in prehardmode awful and waiting on Mana Regen potion is a significant DPS loss, so Mana actually is a relevant consideration in prehardmode. Pre-Boss is also a time when Mana Regen potions might be a bit of an issue to craft, so I think that yes, mana is an issue with the class this early on. Personally, I would make Mana Regen potion's regen the base value and rename/repurpose the potion into something else.