Weapons & Equip Queen Slime vs. Everyone Else: Part 2

[Toxophilite [East]]

On August 07, 2020 I made a post in an effort to gauge the appropriate tier of Queen Slime, compared to other Bosses or even other areas of the game. That's all it was supposed to be at first, nothing more; yet something quite disturbing caught my attention, while finding a general answer to my original question. So first, before I address my direct concerns (Crystal Assassin Armor), allow me to itemize the general consensus that was drawn, to explain why these concerns exist & why I think certain items & equipment might need a few tweaks.

1. When comparing Queen Slime herself, to other Bosses in Hardmode, it was agreed up that she sat around the same tier as the Mech Bosses. It was likely debatable if she was more, or less difficult than the Twins, but no one disagreed that she sits around that tier level.
2. When comparing Queen Slime's item drops to other Bosses in her tier, there didn't seem to be an overall belief that some things were totally useless, but more-or-less specialized & can be skipped, unless you really want them; The Hook of Dissonance & Volatile Gelatin being the stars of the show here. I argued that Volatile Gelatin was a must-have for Summoners, especially those unhappy with Minion A.I., but we all agreed that The Hook of Dissonance wasn't very essential in any way.
3. This is where things get a bit dicey for me. Now understand, Queen Slime's perceived tier in relation to our opinions doesn't hold much weight & I'm not leaning on that. However, when taking everything about her into consideration, it's the Crystal Assassin Armor that makes me scratch my head. Why is the movement speed, which would legitimatize the set (+36 defense, +15% damage, +15% critical chance, +25% movement speed), locked behind the tier of your speed boosting Accessory?

Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but one would think that the Class Neutral approach concerning this Armor & it's so-so stat increase, would be offset by the 25% increase to movement speed, right? Don't get me wrong, as a person who thinks outside the box, I see how this Armor Set can be powerful, but what I can't seem to justify, is the Movement Speed of a player wearing Titanium or Adamantite Armor being equal to that of Crystal Assassin Armor, also taking into consideration that killing only one Mech Boss allows access to Hallowed Armor & DD2 Tier 2 Armors & Equipment.

What makes this entire debacle even more confusing, is the fact that most players, by the time they reach Early Hardmode, will likely have access to some kind of Speed Boosting Accessory. I mean, even if Movement Speed was intentionally limited to the Player Character only & never meant to go beyond a certain speed cap, limited by the tier of your current Accessory; why even bother with Movement Speed being an appealing feature for choosing between Armor Sets, especially if it has no effect on a Player who has access to a Speed Boosting Accessory already? It really hurts the potential for more Armor Sets being competitive.

I wish I could say that my confusion ended there, but the inclusion of the Master Mode mounts, that can move up to speeds as high as 60mph, leads me to believe that this needs to be changed, even if it's intentional. The Goat Skull can be obtained just as soon as defeating the Wall of Flesh & the Zoologist sales competitive Mounts even sooner than that. The way Movement Speed is implemented into the game, as of now, is extremely deceptive & archaic. It's my hope that sets like Crystal Assassin Armor & those similar, be competitive, but if that's not their intended purpose, I really believe their perceived bonuses to Player Movement should be a bit less deceiving.

I was shocked by this discovery, honestly, it took me quite a while to muster up the words & motivation to even write this; & I'm not easily shocked...

 

[Lord Garak]

Volatile Gelatin seemed like complete garbage when I used it, it almost never hit the enemy and did mediocre damage

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Volatile Gelatin seemed like complete garbage when I used it, it almost never hit the enemy and did mediocre damage

I would only slightly disagree, but you do have a point in reference to the larger picture. Volatile Gelatin being specialized, doesn't justify Crystal Assassin Armor being mediocre. They are for all intents & purposes, a package deal.

 

[Lord Garak]

I would only slightly disagree, but you do have a point in reference to the larger picture. Volatile Gelatin being specialized, doesn't justify Crystal Assassin Armor being mediocre. They are for all intents & purposes, a package deal.

What is specialized about it? It's a spore sack that does the same job far worse

 

[Banmei]

What is specialized about it? It's a spore sack that does the same job far worse

I think I see where he was going with this and yes I do think with the right combination this all has the potential to be very useful for that time and period in the game. It all screams summoner to me minus a real effective summoning weapon at that point in the game.

I also do not see why movement speed is disregarded by some people. It's incredible useful, not just for reducing time going from one spot to the next but also for dodging and flying. Let's keep that debate to another thread though.

The main point I see, and what I thought of myself from my POV, is that considering the difficulty of the boss I really don't see the drops (as they currently are) do the justice of effectively rewarding the time and effort. I remember first trying out Expert mode, greater risk greater rewards. And it was. But IMO there clearly remains Boss drops that are not worth what it takes to kill them even with 1.4. Perfect example is BoC. Minus the one accessory, what else if usable from his drops once you are strong enough to beat him?

Nothing against Re-Logic directly as many gaming companies struggle in this very same area. They do listen to feedback though so perhaps we may see some more changes.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

What is specialized about it? It's a spore sack that does the same job far worse

Bone Glove (Rework) - This item has been completely overhauled and turned into an accessory - When equipped, the player will shoot Crossbones towards their cursor whenever they are attacking, once per second. Consider it like a sword projectile, except it works for every weapon. - The bones deal 25 class-neutral damage, but additionally ignore up to 25 enemy defense. - Now also has vanity visibility in the Gloves spot - Note: In practice, this should allow the Bone Gloves to be simultaneously viable for more classes than just Ranged, and also give it a bit more longevity [source]​

It's kinda tough to describe the usefulness of an item like Volatile Gelatin, but if you've ever been in a situation in Terraria where you thought to yourself, "if this one enemy would die faster, it'd make my life so much easier", that's where it'd be invaluable. In those rare cases where 60 or less more damage is all you need to one-shot an enemy, Volatile Gelatin is the secret sauce. We're getting a similar, Early-game version in the 1.4.1 update, so it might become more clear later on, once we get a more similar variant.

 

[Lord Garak]

Bone Glove (Rework) - This item has been completely overhauled and turned into an accessory - When equipped, the player will shoot Crossbones towards their cursor whenever they are attacking, once per second. Consider it like a sword projectile, except it works for every weapon. - The bones deal 25 class-neutral damage, but additionally ignore up to 25 enemy defense. - Now also has vanity visibility in the Gloves spot - Note: In practice, this should allow the Bone Gloves to be simultaneously viable for more classes than just Ranged, and also give it a bit more longevity [source]​

It's kinda tough to describe the usefulness of an item like Volatile Gelatin, but if you've ever been in a situation in Terraria where you thought to yourself, "if this one enemy would die faster, it'd make my life so much easier", that's where it'd be invaluable. In those rare cases where 60 or less more damage is all you need to one-shot an enemy, Volatile Gelatin is the secret sauce. We're getting a similar, Early-game version in the 1.4.1 update, so it might become more clear later on, once we get a more similar variant.

But you don't need Volatile Gelatin to do that, you could use literally any of the numerous dps increasing items and get a far more reliable and potent result that accomplishes the exact same goal. Volatile Gelatin by its very nature avoids enemies like the plague unless it happens to perfectly align with their path.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

But you don't need Volatile Gelatin to do that, you could use literally any of the numerous dps increasing items and get a far more reliable and potent result that accomplishes the exact same goal. Volatile Gelatin by its very nature avoids enemies like the plague unless it happens to perfectly align with their path.

I can only speak for myself I guess but, Volatile Gelatin was the difference maker between me defeating the OOA (Betsy) on Master Mode or having to go & fight Duke Fishron with subpar Wings. I saw the value in that item in more ways than one, but to put things in perspective, I also don't go & run to YouTube or the Wiki when I get stuck, so there might be some common solution that I'm not fully aware of; if a player is experiencing a tough DPS checkpoint. I think Volatile Gelatin is very good, but it's not so good that it makes up for Crystal Assassin Armor being bad, so, it's not worth disagreeing with you over.

I'd rather agree with you that it's... "okay I guess", if that means Crystal Assassin Armor (movement speed-based sets) has a fair shot at being competitive.

 

[J Bame]

I mean, even if Movement Speed was intentionally limited to the Player Character only & never meant to go beyond a certain speed cap, limited by the tier of your current Accessory; why even bother with Movement Speed being an appealing feature for choosing between Armor Sets, especially if it has no effect on a Player who has access to a Speed Boosting Accessory already? It really hurts the potential for more Armor Sets being competitive.

The way Movement Speed is implemented into the game, as of now, is extremely deceptive & archaic. It's my hope that sets like Crystal Assassin Armor & those similar, be competitive, but if that's not their intended purpose, I really believe their perceived bonuses to Player Movement should be a bit less deceiving.

Running Boots are already incredibly fast to the point where some players can't stand playing without them. Making movement speed affect their max speed would effectively make them 60% faster, which is ofc a massive buff and it would be ridiculously overpowered especially in Pre-Hardmode. That is the biggest issue here.

The second, is that while this is suggested as a way to give Crystal Assassin armor a relevant niche, It won't. The 60% cap of movement speed can be practically reached with just Swiftness potion and the Well Fed buff, so the +25% from Crystal Assassin won't actually be major at all... unless you remove the cap and make this even harder to balance.

So if you want to make Movement Speed a good stat you have to overhaul a lot of aspects of mobility and well... we are a bit too late in development to do major changes like that. Especially when you could just give Crystal Assassin armor a dash and/or better stats and it would have the same result while being much less work.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Running Boots are already incredibly fast to the point where some players can't stand playing without them. Making movement speed affect their max speed would effectively make them 60% faster, which is ofc a massive buff and it would be ridiculously overpowered especially in Pre-Hardmode. That is the biggest issue here.

If movement speed is something they want to cap, then it shouldn't be a selling point for certain Armors if it isn't going to do anything. Crystal Assassin Armor is a new addition, so I don't really accept this as a meaningful excuse. If more movement speed is out of the question, or even modifying the percentage, so it doesn't directly stack, then replace it with something that actually works consistently.

The second, is that while this is suggested as a way to give Crystal Assassin armor a relevant niche, It won't. The 60% cap of movement speed can be practically reached with just Swiftness potion and the Well Fed buff, so the +25% from Crystal Assassin won't actually be major at all... unless you remove the cap and make this even harder to balance.

I don't agree with this at all, as there is a limit to the number of active buffs a player can have at once. If speed is already taken care of, a player can focus on addressing other weaknesses instead. Also, if capping the players speed is such an important issue, then don't advertise it as a selling point, replace it with something that's always active, like any other Armor Set that increases DPS or Defense. I'm not stuck on Movement Speed being buffed, more than I am Armor Sets being competitive.

So if you want to make Movement Speed a good stat you have to overhaul a lot of aspects of mobility and well... we are a bit too late in development to do major changes like that. Especially when you could just give Crystal Assassin Armor a dash and/or better stats and it would have the same result while being much less work.

I'm sure they can figure it out, if Mounts are ok in Master Mode, that can go up to speeds as high as 60mph, in Early-Hardmode, I'm fairly certain finding an effective way to balance Movement Speed isn't that intensive a rework; either fix it or remove it. Crystal Assassin Armor shouldn't be this bad.

 

[J Bame]

If movement speed is something they want to cap, then it shouldn't be a selling point for certain Armors if it isn't going to do anything. Crystal Assassin Armor is a new addition, so I don't really accept this as a meaningful excuse. If more movement speed is out of the question, or even modifying the percentage, so it doesn't directly stack, then replace it with something that actually works consistently.

I don't agree with this at all, as there is a limit to the number of active buffs a player can have at once. If speed is already taken care of, a player can focus on addressing other weaknesses instead. Also, if capping the players speed is such an important issue, then don't advertise it as a selling point, replace it with something that's always active, like any other Armor Set that increases DPS or Defense. I'm not stuck on Movement Speed being buffed, more than I am Armor Sets being competitive.

The move speed is not "the selling point", though. The idea was to have an armor that wasn't tied to any class, much like Ninja armor is in pHM. There is no "movement" theme anywhere here that they have to stick to. It's as bad as it is since it was a last-minute addition that wasn't playtested too intensively.

I'm sure they can figure it out, if Mounts are ok in Master Mode, that can go up to speeds as high as 60mph, in Early-Hardmode, I'm fairly certain finding an effective way to balance Movement Speed isn't that intensive a rework; either fix it or remove it. Crystal Assassin Armor shouldn't be this bad.

I'm not trying to say that it shouldn't be done or that it isn't possible, my point is that reworking movement speed for just one armor is much more time consuming than other proposals for it such as simply increasing the stats.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Well then, I guess that's-that.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Honestly... the movement speed should probably just be removed, it's effectively irrelevant for over 95% of the game and trying to make it useful could lead to some balance concerns.

The only times its relevent would be in the early game where your character moves painfully slow so I'd suggest just making the default movement speed from 15mph to 24mph, hermes boots allow you to run at 30mph so it will still be nice getting them.

The only other situation where movement speed gets use would be while running on asphalt since that completely changes the way movement is calculated. I think this is too niche to justify the stat existing though.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Honestly... the movement speed should probably just be removed, it's effectively irrelevant for over 95% of the game and trying to make it useful could lead to some balance concerns.
The only times its relevent would be in the early game where your character moves painfully slow so I'd suggest just making the default movement speed from 15mph to 24mph, hermes boots allow you to run at 30mph so it will still be nice getting them.

I'm not really set on Movement Speed being changed in any major way, I didn't even really think about it until you showed me it didn't have any real effect on anything. It was the stat boost being sold in an environment that it's pretty much irrelevant in, that grinded my gears the most. I had no idea that the Developers were fully aware that it was severely lacking though, now that I know, I just want them to make it competitive. I don't really care how they go about it though (just please fix it).

The only other situation where movement speed gets use would be while running on asphalt since that completely changes the way movement is calculated. I think this is too niche to justify the stat existing though.

Agreed, I was more concerned that this was a Developer oversight, considering the fact that we got newer Mounts in Master Mode, 1.4, but now that I know it's probably on the list of things to do, I don't really have any suggestions. I like what I see so far with the item changes coming in 1.4.1 so, I have no doubt that the Crystal Assassin Armor will be adjusted in some way, shape or form.