Portfolio/Multi-Topic Smoothing out progression: Weapon balancing, Hardmode ore balancing, Buff to base movement speed and also World generation options.

[Heath04🌳]

EDIT: Based on community feedback, I have proposed a different way to rebalance movement accessories. Many have pointed out that guaranteed items in the chests is too reliant on those items, and that the Hermes boots and cloud in a bottle (and alternatives) are too good for when you can get them. To make a middle ground for this, I thought about nerfing the acceleration speed of the Hermes boots and cloud in a bottle, and nerfing the max speed of the Hermes boots. This would make them less overpowered in the early game. This would also make other accessories such as the magiluminesence, shield of Cthulhu and hooks more essential for quick directional movement. This would also make the movement more skillful. For players that do not want to manage the hooks: the nerfed acceleration speed becomes weaker after combining it with other accessories at the tinkerers' workshop, so it would become more like the old acceleration towards the end of pre-hardmode.

This will make the pre-boss stage much more enjoyable and quick

I don't believe making hermes boots (or the other types of boots) more accessible but nerfed would be more enjoyable and would likely slow progression (literally), the boots are fine as is. Even with making them guaranteed in the first few doesn't make them in anyway overpowered. There's the chance that the player doesn't find one of the first ones, maybe they miss the first chest and find the 2nd. There's too many factors still to make the assumption that it's going to be overpowered.

 

[Flint🪓]

Oh, Vampire Knives is the weapon I can never understand. Even pre all the nerfs it does literally nothing usefull whenever I've tried to use it. Small damage and HP restore so little you can barely see it and would die in a split seconds if you'll rely on Vampire Knives... If anything that thing needs it's buffs. Lots of buffs in every directions.

Just because they have lackluster dps does not mean it needs a buff, they heal an 30 hp per seconds, thats equivalent of a greater healing potion every 5 seconds.

Mind you, but moonbite debuff only exists to stop you from using “external” healing sources like vampire knives and spectre hood. I wonder why? The funny things is that even with moonbite debuff the short time it takes Moonlord to re-apply is enough to almost heal you to full hp by switching to vampire knives.

 

[Meowlegend]

Just because they have lackluster dps does not mean it needs a buff, they heal an 30 hp per seconds, thats equivalent of a greater healing potion every 5 seconds.

They dont even have lackluster DPS, in fact they actually have above average dps in the melee class Post-Plantera.

 

[Lucky1]

The perfect example of balance purism are the ore tiers.

Guess what? Nobody likes them because they are boring. Yes, a game should have some boring stuff for the purpose of creating contrast but since they already exist this makes the boring stuff quota reached. In my eyes its even exceeded.

So why pursuing balance purism in the form of strict tiered progression? You want to turn the whole game into one ore-tier-like mass of bland and dull stuff? Doesn't look like that. Yet for some reason you want to "balance" the outliers. They exist for a reason. The major one is what they help to keep the idea of progression fresh and interesting. Because it has alternatives. While strict tiers will make the game too shallow: "kill boss #1 -> kill boss #2 -> kill boss #3 -> ad infinitum".

The problem is what it makes each tier completely forgettable just as ore tiers what exist for a very limited purpose of providing next generic step in the ladder. And since all of them are generic the ladder itself looks and feels generic. To create something interesting out of generic and dull components requires specific composition. And since the game already has one there is no way to make it more interesting through dulling its brightest components. You need a complete overhaul to make strict progression work. And, honestly, this means different game.

 

[Flint🪓]

The perfect example of balance purism are the ore tiers.

Guess what? Nobody likes them because they are boring. Yes, a game should have some boring stuff for the purpose of creating contrast but since they already exist this makes the boring stuff quota reached. In my eyes its even exceeded.

So why pursuing balance purism in the form of strict tiered progression? You want to turn the whole game into one ore-tier-like mass of bland and dull stuff? Doesn't look like that. Yet for some reason you want to "balance" the outliers. They exist for a reason. The major one is what they help to keep the idea of progression fresh and interesting. Because it has alternatives. While strict tiers will make the game too shallow: "kill boss #1 -> kill boss #2 -> kill boss #3 -> ad infinitum".

The problem is what it makes each tier completely forgettable just as ore tiers what exist for a very limited purpose of providing next generic step in the ladder. And since all of them are generic the ladder itself looks and feels generic. To create something interesting out of generic and dull components requires specific composition. And since the game already has one there is no way to make it more interesting through dulling its brightest components. You need a complete overhaul to make strict progression work. And, honestly, this means different game.

In pre-hardmode, kinda, but removing or changing those it’s equivalent to removing gold armor from minecraft, doesn’t need to be there but at the same time it needs to be there.

From the hardmode ore variants the only one that is objectly bad is cobalt since it can be worse than molten/necro/meteor. But the others are pretty good:

• Palladium gives a regen bonus that may not be much but it adds up with extra regen sources + it is absurdly easy to obtain.
• Mythiril is useful for armor mixing with it’s greaves an it’s melee variant gives the highest damage bonuses from all hardmode ore tiers.
• Orichalcum has it’s petals which are good for The Destroyer.
• Titanium has it’s shards which are good for melee.
• Adamandite gives great stats for all classes.

 

[Lucky1]

In pre-hardmode, kinda, but removing or changing those it’s equivalent to removing gold armor from minecraft, doesn’t need to be there but at the same time it needs to be there.

From the hardmode ore variants the only one that is objectly bad is cobalt since it can be worse than molten/necro/meteor. But the others are pretty good:

• Palladium gives a regen bonus that may not be much but it adds up with extra regen sources + it is absurdly easy to obtain.
• Mythiril is useful for armor mixing with it’s greaves an it’s melee variant gives the highest damage bonuses from all hardmode ore tiers.
• Orichalcum has it’s petals which are good for The Destroyer.
• Titanium has it’s shards which are good for melee.
• Adamandite gives great stats for all classes.

You missed the point.

You can get all those ores through fishing. Thus making a progression skip. Should fishing be removed from the game because of that? Does linear ore progression is so much fun that no player will even bother to go fishing for ores? Is it really good for the sake of progression that bosses are able to spawn or be spawned without access to the latest ore tiers?

I was talking about strictness.

 

[muovd🌳]

I don't believe making hermes boots (or the other types of boots) more accessible but nerfed would be more enjoyable and would likely slow progression (literally), the boots are fine as is. Even with making them guaranteed in the first few doesn't make them in anyway overpowered. There's the chance that the player doesn't find one of the first ones, maybe they miss the first chest and find the 2nd. There's too many factors still to make the assumption that it's going to be overpowered.

That is what I thought, but people think that having them guaranteed in the first chests is the worst thing ever. I can see where they are coming from, but I think there should at least be a middle ground where the Hermes boots and cloud in a bottle are more common. Since the magic mirror can be crafted now, it may as well have less of a chance to spawn, to make room for the other items.

 

[Heath04🌳]

That is what I thought, but people think that having them guaranteed in the first chests is the worst thing ever. I can see where they are coming from, but I think there should at least be a middle ground where the Hermes boots and cloud in a bottle are more common. Since the magic mirror can be crafted now, it may as well have less of a chance to spawn, to make room for the other items.

I don't mind them being more common, first chest, whatever as long as you add some variance to it I think it can be added. The Muramasa is guaranteed first in the dungeon unless there is a wooden chest first then it's move further down in the order. If you can figure something like that for Hermes and or Cloud then I could see it. Variance also helps keep playthroughs interesting so you're not just acquiring those two a minute into the playthrough everytime.

 

[muovd🌳]

The perfect example of balance purism are the ore tiers.

Guess what? Nobody likes them because they are boring. Yes, a game should have some boring stuff for the purpose of creating contrast but since they already exist this makes the boring stuff quota reached. In my eyes its even exceeded.

So why pursuing balance purism in the form of strict tiered progression? You want to turn the whole game into one ore-tier-like mass of bland and dull stuff? Doesn't look like that. Yet for some reason you want to "balance" the outliers. They exist for a reason. The major one is what they help to keep the idea of progression fresh and interesting. Because it has alternatives. While strict tiers will make the game too shallow: "kill boss #1 -> kill boss #2 -> kill boss #3 -> ad infinitum".

The problem is what it makes each tier completely forgettable just as ore tiers what exist for a very limited purpose of providing next generic step in the ladder. And since all of them are generic the ladder itself looks and feels generic. To create something interesting out of generic and dull components requires specific composition. And since the game already has one there is no way to make it more interesting through dulling its brightest components. You need a complete overhaul to make strict progression work. And, honestly, this means different game.

I don't know what you are talking about here, but it really is not that deep. All I want is a unique set bonus for cobalt and mythril, not anything to break the fundamentals of the game. The crafting stations being dropped by the queen slime would be a bonus for players that like fast-paced progression. Those people usually do not need/want the ore armor sets, yet need to go mining for the ores anyway, to make the anvil and forge. Another fix would be to cut these crafting stations entirely and just use the normal anvil and hellforge for the hardmode recipes.

 

[muovd🌳]

I don't mind them being more common, first chest, whatever as long as you add some variance to it I think it can be added. The Muramasa is guaranteed first in the dungeon unless there is a wooden chest first then it's move further down in the order. If you can figure something like that for Hermes and or Cloud then I could see it. Variance also helps keep playthroughs interesting so you're not just acquiring those two a minute into the playthrough everytime.

If the 2 guaranteed chests are generated from the top down in the middle of the map, there may still be a chance you missed them if they are hidden behind blocks / not in a cave. This would still give it the variety you want, as people may miss the chests and find other gold chests deeper below.

 

[Dapling]

Honestly, my take on the boots issue is that they are far too critical to many people’s experience in the first place simply because the player’s starting movement doesn’t feel good at all. It constantly feels like you’re walking on ice and the starting movement speed is ever so slightly too low. Therefore I propose increasing basic acceleration by a significant amount and swapping out the Blinkroot in swiftness potion’s recipe for a Daybloom. The former is a massive improvement to earlygame which also makes dashes less of a requirement for playing the game without mounts later on, and the latter makes swiftness potions easier to obtain early on, which makes basic movement 3.75 mph faster which actually feels pretty nice with your low starting velocity and even stacks with well fed. You could also remove the cactus from the recipe but that feels like a bit much as it would make Swiftness the cheapest potion in the game.

 

[Lucky1]

I don't know what you are talking about here, but it really is not that deep. All I want is a unique set bonus for cobalt and mythril, not anything to break the fundamentals of the game. The crafting stations being dropped by the queen slime would be a bonus for players that like fast-paced progression. Those people usually do not need/want the ore armor sets, yet need to go mining for the ores anyway, to make the anvil and forge. Another fix would be to cut these crafting stations entirely and just use the normal anvil and hellforge for the hardmode recipes.

I'm talking about those parts:


"Smoothing out progression"

"The most broken pre-boss weapon in the game."

"This sword desperately needs a tier change"

"which in itself needs to be fixed"

"Starfury needs a nerf and a buffed version after skeletron"

"a pre-boss weapon that is useful up until the wall of flesh is not balanced"

 

[J Bame]

Many have pointed out that guaranteed items in the chests is too reliant on those items, and that the Hermes boots and cloud in a bottle (and alternatives) are too good for when you can get them. To make a middle ground for this, I thought about nerfing the acceleration speed of the Hermes boots and cloud in a bottle, and nerfing the max speed of the Hermes boots. This would make them less overpowered in the early game. This would also make other accessories such as the magiluminesence, shield of Cthulhu and hooks more essential for quick directional movement.

Nobody said that Hermes Boots and Cloud in a Bottle are too good. Hermes Boots and Cloud in a Bottle are very big improvements over base movement, but the issue isnt that these items are overpowered, it's that base movement feels awful because you need 2 key items at all times for what's basically the base movement for the whole game.

The solution to this isnt a very strange nerf to acceleration (doesnt make any sense for the Hermes Boots to accelerate slower than base movement, and I have no idea how you expect it to work in a double jump), or handing out these two items as easily and as early as possible, it's improving the player's base movement so that it doesnt feel awful to play without hermes boots equipped.

Honestly, my take on the boots issue is that they are far too critical to many people’s experience in the first place simply because the player’s starting movement doesn’t feel good at all. It constantly feels like you’re walking on ice and the starting movement speed is ever so slightly too low. Therefore I propose increasing basic acceleration by a significant amount

Acceleration has nothing to do Hermes Boots being twice as fast as the player's base movement.

 

[Dapling]

Acceleration has nothing to do Hermes Boots being twice as fast as the player's base movement.

Correct, but I feel like if you want to make base movement feel good then you have to either address the acceleration issue somehow or give the player enough top speed to be comparable to hermes boots.

 

[Heath04🌳]

I will say that you cannot change the base movement speed without also increasing the base building speed. To be able to walk in a straight line while holding down a key you need to be moving at 15mph, which is the current base moving speed. I know they added the rollerskates but them being a mount is a big inconvenience I don't have another inventory slot to be putting that in and it's not better than Witch's Broom so I do still need that increased building speed buff.

 

[Dapling]

I will say that you cannot change the base movement speed without also increasing the base building speed. To be able to walk in a straight line while holding down a key you need to be moving at 15mph, which is the current base moving speed. I know they added the rollerskates but them being a mount is a big inconvenience I don't have another inventory slot to be putting that in and it's not better than Witch's Broom so I do still need that increased building speed buff.

This is why I proposed making swiftness potions easily available super early rather than a direct buff to base movement speed.

 

[Lucky1]

Swiftness potions are already available super early.

If your idea is to make earliest exploration less frustrating you can implement some option for the very early stage of the game. Something like "barefoot" bonus what works given you are not wearing anything resembling the boots including a pants parts of the armor and what doubles your acceleration on the ground.

 

[muovd🌳]

Honestly, my take on the boots issue is that they are far too critical to many people’s experience in the first place simply because the player’s starting movement doesn’t feel good at all. It constantly feels like you’re walking on ice and the starting movement speed is ever so slightly too low. Therefore I propose increasing basic acceleration by a significant amount and swapping out the Blinkroot in swiftness potion’s recipe for a Daybloom. The former is a massive improvement to earlygame which also makes dashes less of a requirement for playing the game without mounts later on, and the latter makes swiftness potions easier to obtain early on, which makes basic movement 3.75 mph faster which actually feels pretty nice with your low starting velocity and even stacks with well fed. You could also remove the cactus from the recipe but that feels like a bit much as it would make Swiftness the cheapest potion in the game.

I think this would be a great solution too, it would definitely make the early game feel less sluggish before you get Hermes boots.

 

[muovd🌳]

Swiftness potions are already available super early.

If your idea is to make earliest exploration less frustrating you can implement some option for the very early stage of the game. Something like "barefoot" bonus what works given you are not wearing anything resembling the boots including a pants parts of the armor and what doubles your acceleration on the ground.

This could also work, the buff going away after you equip the boots would also make it so the boots don't have to be balanced around the base movement speed buff.

 

[muovd🌳]

I'm talking about those parts:


"Smoothing out progression"

"The most broken pre-boss weapon in the game."

"This sword desperately needs a tier change"

"which in itself needs to be fixed"

"Starfury needs a nerf and a buffed version after skeletron"

"a pre-boss weapon that is useful up until the wall of flesh is not balanced"

You talked about the ore tiers in your comment. Now that I understand what you were referring to, i can tell you this: Balancing is part of every (progression based) game, especially in Terraria. The developers always want the game to feel smooth and fair, with everything available to you being viable for that point in progression and in line with how much effort you spent to get it. @Redigit🌳 has listened to the community countless times to buff certain underpowered weapons like the phaseblades and the harpoon, as seen in the spoilers for 1.4.5. Nobody would like to go out of their way to get an item, just for that item to be bad or even useless compared to other weapons available at that stage or even earlier. In the same way, weapons should not be too overpowered for the point you get it, like the Daedalus stormbow before the nerfs. This would make you rely more on the overpowered weapon instead of your skills and strategies.