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Suggestion Forum Rule Amendments Open Discussion/Feedback (August 28th)

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Hello again everyone!

I've recently added a new amendment to the Suggestion section rules regarding Sectional bans, or rather, we've solidified and organized our policy regarding these into a more concrete form. If you haven't seen it already, please check it out here: http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...or-update-as-of-august-28th.9304/#post-709369

First off, we'd appreciate any questions or feedback on the policy . . . even if that feedback is as simple as asking us to explain those rules better. I want them to be clear and understandable, so don't hesitate to speak up!

As with the previous Suggestion rule amendments, the goal with the specific policies there is to help keep the tendency for Suggestion section behavioral issues from resulting in excessive warning points/temporary or permanent bans from the forum as a whole. We've found that for some people, the Suggestion section brings out a nasty side that they don't show elsewhere, and we'd rather remove access from that one section rather than see them rapidly accumulate piles of warning points and risk a general forum ban. That is why the section is generally considered more strictly than most other sections, and is comparatively easy to be given sectional bans from.

Additionally; on the whole, this policy will not be retroactive for the majority of users who have been given Suggestion related warning points. With the increased (and now very visible) strictness, we are going to try to move forward with a positive approach, rather than hanging onto previous actions. However, those with current or very recent Suggestion related sectional bans may still be held to this, given the recentness of those actions (and would likely put them either on 3rd-strike probation or 2 strikes). We encourage anyone who wishes to know their current Suggestion section ban/strike status to PM us so we can discuss it with you in private and clarify as much as possible. I do not believe this applies to more than a small handful of individuals, however.

Once this discussion has run its course, I'll be merging this thread into the previous Amendment discussion to prevent thread clutter.

Enough of that then; I'd like to hear whatever feedback you all have to share!
 

Vulpes Inculta

Duke Fishron
This may be off-topic and potentially a stupid suggestion, but this could work well in subforums other than the suggestions subforum. If this is already implemented in some form or another on the back-end side of things, then disregard this post.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
We haven't had to implement it in other sections, because no other section attracts as much unique and isolated problem posting as Suggestions. To this date, I don't believe (I may be incorrect) that any other non-SG sections have had even one sectional ban so far, but Suggestions has had quite a few. We even had to make a unique warning category for it.

With that said, I think that the staff would be comfortable applying this to other sections should the need ever arise, but those would be isolated situations; if someone were to be banned from the Art section for instance, it could well be another year or more until it happened again. Whatever it is that causes it, Suggestions very much has a strong tendency to bring out unusually condescending and rude posting habits out of people who are otherwise exemplary posters . . . no other section does that to the same level of severity, even Adult Swim. So until such a need arises, this would probably stay Suggestion oriented, and we can definitely adapt it to others in the case of such a need, as you say.
 

Everest

Mechanic
I'm wondering about a situation where you have two strikes: I know one expires after 4 months (the first of the two I presume), but what about the other one? Does it just become a permanent strike? Or, instead, does the second one expire 4 months after the first? Do they both expire at the same time?

Or did I miss something?
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
One strike will expire every 4 months, starting from the time of the most recent strike (with the exception of the 3rd strike, which lasts only 2 months . . . sorry if that's complicated, but I thought it was a bit more lenient).

For example, if you were given a strike on January 15th and then one on March 20th, you would have two strikes; the first would now expire on July 20th, and the second would expire on November 20th.

I made a few small edits to the rule page to hopefully clarify that . . . I can see where it was a bit vague!

I personally feel that 4 months is a good amount of time; its neither too short nor is it too long, but I think its on the table for discussion if someone can make a convincing argument in favor of an alternative. :)
 
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Azu

Retinazer
Honestly there needs to be some quality assurance when it comes to suggestions.
Most browsers and computers have a spell-checker, and anyone who takes time to read over their suggestions should catch any mistakes, and spell-checker works for members who aren't native English speakers. Grammar is more acceptable, as I can't seem to find a checker for that. Honestly people should spend more than 30 seconds typing up their suggestion and then not proofreading it before posting.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Let me ask you this; why should posted content (as opposed to behavior, which is linked to elevated rates of misbehavior as explained above) be held to a higher standard of quality in Suggestions than any other section? I won't deny that it is in the suggestors best interest to make their content as pristine and readable as possible, but we don't have quality assurance in a number of other sections which are purely user submitted original content (Mods, Art, RP, Lit, Guides), so why would Suggestions have the same?

Keep in mind that in all sections, egregiously Lack of Content/impossible to decipher threads have been known to be closed if they come to our attention, but this is the exception, rather than the rule, and I'm curious why Suggestions should be given more attention in this regard.
 

Sonnette

Retinazer
A while back I suggested an exception to the No Cthulhu rule, and I know this hasn't mentioned that, but any chance it was mentioned?
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
I've brought it up, didn't really get a good group consensus on it . . . right now, I'm operating under the assumption that A) Cthulhu suggestions are no longer an issue due to Moon Lord and B) Cthulhu suggestions are sort of pointless because of Moon Lord. I've seen a few people make them as some sort of alternate, but lets be honest here . . . its very unlikely that Relogic is going to add a second giant squid boss called Cthulhu at this point. Moon Lord is filling that role.

The reason it was a rule in the first place is because TO had dozens of practically identical suggestions for the same thing, and it sort of reached the point of "okay, we get it, you want a giant squid boss, stop asking". The question I think needs to be asked is "what is the point of making a giant squid boss suggestion now that the game already has a giant squid boss", but if people want to do so, knowing full well their idea is unlikely to be implemented out of sheer redundancy, I don't see a huge problem with it. Its not like we have a standing policy of "no redundant content" in suggestions.

Would you mind reminding me the specifics of the exception you described?
 

Sonnette

Retinazer
Yeah, I naturally know it most likely won't get it. I have a couple of ideas for an alt Cthulhu suggestion, so I'll go ahead and try to make one.
 

Azu

Retinazer
Let me ask you this; why should posted content (as opposed to behavior, which is linked to elevated rates of misbehavior as explained above) be held to a higher standard of quality in Suggestions than any other section? I won't deny that it is in the suggestors best interest to make their content as pristine and readable as possible, but we don't have quality assurance in a number of other sections which are purely user submitted original content (Mods, Art, RP, Lit, Guides), so why would Suggestions have the same?

Keep in mind that in all sections, egregiously Lack of Content/impossible to decipher threads have been known to be closed if they come to our attention, but this is the exception, rather than the rule, and I'm curious why Suggestions should be given more attention in this regard.
Because in and of itself the suggestions forums are different then anywhere else in the forums. This thread and it's predecessor are examples of this. And already, quality assurance of some degree already exists in this section:
  • Do not plagiarize other member's suggestions. Doing so will not be tolerated.
  • Do not use all UPPER CASE, leet or meme speak, or ambiguous wording when choosing a thread title. Thread titles should be clear, concise, and give a good idea of what will be suggested in the thread.
  • Do not create joke or troll suggestions. Those kinds of topics are not welcome and will be locked.
  • Do not make disrespectful comments. Constructive criticism and helpful suggestions for improvement are welcome. Insulting, rude, and mean-spirited comments are not.
  • Do not engage with disrespectful or hostile comments. Simply report the post and then pretend it never existed. Staff will handle the situation from there. Do be aware that criticism is not the same as an attack. Please attempt to take constructive advice for what it is, an attempt to help improve the suggestion.
  • Do not post duplicate suggestions. The forum has a working search feature and the community staff request that it be utilized. There is nothing wrong with similar suggestions that have their own unique take on a base idea, but simple and/or highly focused suggestions such as a popular type of new boss or a nerf to a well known weapon are unlikely to have multiple, unique avenues to support more than a single suggestion thread and these sort of redundant suggestions will be locked.

  • Please avoid posting simple agreement/disagreement comments, such as "I like this!", "Good suggestion", or "This is bad". Instead, use the like button to show agreement and always give constructive feedback when posting disapproval, for example, including a useful sentence or two on why the suggestion is disagreeable.
  • Several title prefix tags are available and provide an additional means to identify the type of suggestion that is being made. Please chose an appropriate title prefix when creating a suggestion thread. A member of the community staff may add an appropriate prefix tag to the title of threads that are lacking one. Additionally, members may report a thread that lacks a prefix and request that one be added.
  • In addition to the built-in title prefix tags, thread creators can provide one or more text tags to help identify the content of the thread and these should be included in the text of the thread title. For example, if one was making a suggestion for a new giant carrot boss and had a mocked up sprite, then the thread could include text tags such as [Boss] and [Sprite] as in '[Boss][Sprite] New Giant Carrot NPC'.
  • These sections provide a means for members to give ideas and feedback on how they think the game should evolve. To accomplish that, one must use, to the best of their ability, proper grammar, punctuation, and structure to more easily facilitate understanding of the suggestion. Well-written and structured posts are easier for the developers and members to understand than walls of text and illogical, rambling, and/or disjointed sentences.
  • It is highly recommended that members utilize every tool at their disposal when presenting their suggestion to the community. One of the most important available measures is the thorough use of spell-checking, whether in-browser, through word processing software, or by the quick querying of Google. The very effort of fixing obvious, red-underlined spelling errors goes a long way. Second, don't be afraid to apply some of the available post formatting and text styling options, such as ordered/unordered lists, related links, text alignment, and judicious use of bold, underline, italic, etc. Don't get carried away with formatting, too much can be far, far worse than too little. Lastly, image mock-ups, example sprites, and any other form of relevant demonstration or artwork can be extremely helpful in gaining support for a suggestion. The inclusion of such content is strongly suggested whenever appropriate. After all, the developers could be reading the suggestion, so why not try to impress them?
I am simply asking that this part in particular:
  • These sections provide a means for members to give ideas and feedback on how they think the game should evolve. To accomplish that, one must use, to the best of their ability, proper grammar, punctuation, and structure to more easily facilitate understanding of the suggestion. Well-written and structured posts are easier for the developers and members to understand than walls of text and illogical, rambling, and/or disjointed sentences.
  • It is highly recommended that members utilize every tool at their disposal when presenting their suggestion to the community. One of the most important available measures is the thorough use of spell-checking, whether in-browser, through word processing software, or by the quick querying of Google. The very effort of fixing obvious, red-underlined spelling errors goes a long way. Second, don't be afraid to apply some of the available post formatting and text styling options, such as ordered/unordered lists, related links, text alignment, and judicious use of bold, underline, italic, etc. Don't get carried away with formatting, too much can be far, far worse than too little. Lastly, image mock-ups, example sprites, and any other form of relevant demonstration or artwork can be extremely helpful in gaining support for a suggestion. The inclusion of such content is strongly suggested whenever appropriate. After all, the developers could be reading the suggestion, so why not try to impress them?
Is more stressed to topic creators.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
I am simply asking that this part in particular:
<snip>
Is more stressed to topic creators.
When relevant, I do take time to make constructive feedback for suggestions on occasion, especially those made by frequent posters of "failed" suggestions. However, as the forums have evolved, and the game having reached 1.3, I feel that our primary goal with the section (as moderators) is to maintain a respectful atmosphere, rather than ensure quality suggestions. If we, as the moderators, start enforcing a standard of post quality on suggestions, I feel it undermines what I've been working towards for the past 7 months, namely, a more respectful, less elitist spirit in the section. We already see far too much condescension, far too much mini-modding, and a heck of a lot of unkind judgment in the section; if I had to choose between maintaining that direction of progress, or moving in the direction of enforced quality, I would very much choose the former.

The way I view those excerpts you've quotes is as guidelines, rather than rules. As I mentioned, it is definitely in the suggestor's best interest to post the highest quality suggestion's possible, but do we want that to become an enforceable policy? I don't. For a number of reasons. I think it would set a bad example for the section, I think it would give people the impression that dismissing suggestions for trivial reasons is acceptable, I think it would put me (and other mods) in a position of having to be judges of quality rather than behavior, and I don't think that is a good thing. Not to mention, supervising the Suggestion section for behavior is an extremely time consuming task already; enforcing Quality Assurance on the section would be a massive time sink for, what is in my opinion, very little benefit.

I say this because, in my opinion as a long running Suggestion's section participant, and now the primary moderator for the section, the Suggestion section is far, far less influential and important than people think it is, and the amount of content that filters through the section into the game itself is very minimal. I won't deny that some pretty great ideas have made it into the game as a result of that section, but those ideas spoke for themselves; support was raised as a result of their popularity, and they eventually came to the attention of the developers. Suggestions make or break themselves; we don't need to weed out low quality posts artificially.

Long story short? From my perspective as a moderator, I consider behavior in the section to be a primary concern. I consider ensuring high post quality to be one of minimal concern.
 
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