Game Mechanics Summoner Bad - A green man's essay on the summoner class, and how to possibly improve it

[Nekohime]

Summoners are not intended to focus on single targets however. Infact they are detrimental to be used against them.
They are crowd control weapons. (Even whips)

Their are some great croud control weapons that all classes receive eventually. But Summoner Only receives crowd control weapons.

 

[Shyguymask]

Everyone uses boss EOL killtimes to determine how effective class builds are and thats not your suppose to do things. that boss makes up a very small% of this game's progression. You spend more time mining and getting better gear. You should be using the frost moon and pumpkin moon events

Summoner isn't necessarily dominant at mobbing, every class has powerful crowd control & mobbing tools pretty much, especially since all builds no matter what can summon 2-3 Blade Staff while in the post-Plantera dungeon for example. Mining is not really relevant to class/build performance, and when it comes to Moon events, single target DPS is more important especially past the first few waves.

EoL is a particularly relevant and consistent boss for judging late hardmode DPS, but she's far from the only boss or use case I take into consideration:

This video is a bit old, but still gets the point across.

 

[MoultonLava]

Summoners are not inted to focus on single targets however. Infact they are detrimental to be used against them.
They are crowd control weapons. (Even whips)

I agree, but only partially. Some minions are obviously built for crowds, the Dragon and Imps come to mind. Others, however, are obviously single target focused, like the Xeno and SCell staff, which have 100% accuracy and high DPS on one target.

 

[Dapling]

no we're discussing calamity at this point. which is very offtopic

I was talking about vanilla summoner (hence why I was citing vanilla the entire time) but alright, if you really don't want to actually address my points that badly, then fair enough.

 

[Nekohime]

I was talking about vanilla summoner (hence why I was citing vanilla the entire time) but alright, if you really don't want to actually address my points that badly, then fair enough.

The Finch Staff doesn't have iframes, which is why it's movement pattern is so erratic.
Furthermore. EOL DPS Killtimes are terrible measure of the power of summoner. You want to measure the DPS of the summoner. Use them against the Destroyer.

 

[Dapling]

The Finch Staff doesn't have iframes,

I know from the code and observing the minion ingame that this isn’t true, but here’s a wiki page for you:

List of projectiles that apply invincibility frames

Below is a list of projectiles that apply a type of invincibility frame. The length of invincibility frame applied and penetrate count of the projectile is also included.

terraria.wiki.gg

Use ctrl+f and type “finch” for me. Thanks.
(If you’re feeling lazy then I’ll just say it for you: each finch has 15 local iframes, which means they cannot hit any faster than 4 times every second. No iframes would mean they each hit 60 times per second)

Furthermore. EOL DPS Killtimes are terrible measure of the power of summoner. You want to measure the DPS of the summoner. Use them against the Destroyer

Destroyer literally dies in 1 hit from Drippler Crippler (melee) in master mode, in less than 5 seconds from Life Drain (mage), and Ranger is memed about with destroyer for a reason. Summoner is literally the worst class for destroyer.

 

[Asternove]

The Finch Staff doesn't have iframes, which is why it's movement pattern is so erratic.
Furthermore. EOL DPS Killtimes are terrible measure of the power of summoner. You want to measure the DPS of the summoner. Use them against the Destroyer.

Uh, no. Deciding whether to test DPS against the most fair boss v the most cheesable shouldn't be a question.

 

[Coleyohley]

The Finch Staff doesn't have iframes, which is why it's movement pattern is so erratic.

This is where you are simply incorrect, Finches inflict 15 local iframes. However, even if they did inflict shared iframes, their behaviour would not be affected, since they do not move differently after hitting an enemy like Flinx do. They would continue to fly right through the enemy exactly as they do now.

Furthermore. EOL DPS Killtimes are terrible measure of the power of summoner. You want to measure the DPS of the summoner. Use them against the Destroyer.

It still loses there, by an even larger margin too, I might add. Other classes have monstrous AoE options like Life Drain, Nimbus Rod, Crystal Vile Shard, Orange Zapinator, Jester Arrows, Crystal Darts, Bladetongue, Drippler Crippler and Dao of Pow... and all of them are far more impressive against Destroyer than what Summoner can pull off.

Whips have enormous damage falloff when striking multiple enemies, which makes them actually quite poor for Destroyer, where other weapons like the ones I mentioned can hit numerous times for full damage (except Jester Arrows, which have some falloff but not nearly as much as whips).

The minions it has on offer (before Optic Staff, at least) also struggle to maximize the number of segments they can hit per attack. Blades shredding a coiled destroyer is funny, but almost every piercing weapon can do that, and once the boss uncoils they can only hit 2-3 segments at a time, which is much worse than the options other classes have access to.

 

[Nekohime]

1. I was mistaken I meant to say Local Invincibility. Whatever it is. Zenith has it too.
2. Where not talking about whips.
3. If your using a whip or minions against the Destroyer you doing it wrong The Lunar Crystal Staff is what you should be using. Instakills it.

 

[MoultonLava]

1. I was mistaken I meant to say Local Invincibility. Whatever it is. Zenith has it too.
2. Where not talking about whips.
3. If your using a whip against the Destroyer you doing it wrong The Lunar Crystal Staff is what you should be using. Instakills it.

that isn't DPS testing, that is just destroying it. If you want an actual test of DPS in practical situations on a single target, the EoL is the perfect opponent, with the big fish being second. Also, are you talking about the Lunar Portal or Rainbow Crystal staff? Those are post ML when the Destroyer is, well, a mech boss.

 

[Nekohime]

How many times do I have to explain why that doesn't work with how summoners work.
Summons are intended to fight MULTIPLE targets and take them down quickly.
No other class does this as much as they can

 

[Coleyohley]

1. I was mistaken I meant to say Local Invincibility. Whatever it is. Zenith has it too.

Shared iframes still do not change Finches' behaviour. Local/shared iframes do not change a minion's behaviour unless it moves differently once it hits an enemy, like Flinx; Finches do not do that.

2. Where not talking about whips.
3. If your using a whip or minions against the Destroyer you doing it wrong The Lunar Crystal Staff is what you should be using. Instakills it.

You said "summoner," which includes whips and minions, and what does that say about Summoner's crowd damage if using 2/3 types of weapons it has against one of the most important AoE tests in the game is "doing it wrong?" Regardless, Rainbow Crystal/Lunar Portal is irrelevant against the Destroyer as you are well, well past the point of Destroyer being a relevant boss and there are even more options from every other class than can obliterate Destroyer, like Last Prism, Luminite Arrows and Bullets, Electrosphere Launcher, Celebration MKII, Zenith, Flying Dragon, Solar Eruption...

 

[MoultonLava]

How many times do I have to explain why that doesn't work with how summoners work.
Summons are intended to fight MULTIPLE targets and take them down quickly.
No other class does this as much as they can

So you are saying ALL summons are best for crowds? I disagree, and I do believe that Summoner is better in single target in late game situations.

 

[Dapling]

1. I was mistaken I meant to say Local Invincibility. Whatever it is. Zenith has it too.
2. Where not talking about whips.
3. If your using a whip or minions against the Destroyer you doing it wrong The Lunar Crystal
Staff is what you should be using. Instakills it.

1: Zenith has 8 local iframes, which means it hits basically twice as often as finch’s 15 even ignoring the much higher uptime that zenith has. If your logic is “zenith has this iframe type so finch having it is broken too”, then we need to nerf Blood Thorn because that weapon also has local iframes.
2: If we aren’t considering whips then summoner literally can’t do anything the others can’t, because other classes still have minion slots they can fill for free damage.
3: Why on earth would I test a post moon lord weapon on destroyer???? Literally every class can instakill destroyer long before that point in the game so summoner isn’t even doing anything special there???? Do you skip to the end of the game every playthrough???

 

[MoultonLava]

Also, you keep saying Summoner does worse in single target when it has some of the highest single target DPS in the game against endgame bosses. SCell and Xeno with Kaleidoscope on Master EoL destroys her in less than a MINUTE, without any hyper sweating.

 

[Dapling]

Also, you keep saying Summoner does worse in single target when it has some of the highest single target DPS in the game against endgame bosses. SCell and Xeno with Kaleidoscope on Master EoL destroys her in less than a MINUTE, without any hyper sweating.

Mage actually does it even faster but that’s just because mage is genuinely insane for the entire stretch of the game after golem.

 

[MoultonLava]

Mage actually does it even faster but that’s just because mage is genuinely insane for the entire game after you kill golem.

True, Mage has insane DPS with Razorpine and Blizzard Staff (I saw a 30 second speedkill Legendary EoL with those two weapons)

 

[Dapling]

True, Mage has insane DPS with Razorpine and Blizzard Staff (I saw a 30 second speedkill Legendary EoL with those two weapons)

Remix Aqua Scepter can do it in less than 15 seconds iirc, and the weapon it replaces (bubble gun) is still obscenely fast even if it’s harder to use.

 

[MoultonLava]

Remix Aqua Scepter can do it in less than 15 seconds iirc, and the weapon it replaces (bubble gun) is still obscenely fast.

I have heard the legends of Remix AS, and it genuinely looks great to use. I have seen a 15 second speedkill of LC with it.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

Summons are intended to fight MULTIPLE targets and take them down quickly.
No other class does this as much as they can

I know you're kind of getting thrashed here but short of Spinal Tap and Morning Star very little that Summon damage can do is holding a candle to the ease of use of this very small selection of items:

Terra Blade

For an extensive guide to crafting this item, see Guide:Crafting a Terra Blade. The Terra Blade is a Hardmode, post-Plantera sword. When swung, a green aura follows the swing, reaching farther than the sword itself. The aura can hit up to three enemies. The sword will also fire a green slash...

terraria.wiki.gg

Drippler Crippler

Desktop/Console/Mobile-Only Content: This information applies only to the Desktop, Console, and Mobile versions of Terraria. The Drippler Crippler is a Hardmode flail which, in addition to the usual flail mechanics, fires a thorny ball projectile from the flail's head upon being thrown, which...

terraria.wiki.gg

Paladin's Hammer

The Paladin's Hammer is a Hardmode, post-Plantera boomerang that has a 1/15 (6.67%) / 29/225 (12.89%) chance of being dropped by Paladins in the post-Plantera Dungeon. The projectile can pierce infinite enemies but cannot pass through blocks. Its best modifier is Godly or Demonic. Both modifiers...

terraria.wiki.gg

Daedalus Stormbow

Desktop/Console/Mobile-Only Content: This information applies only to the Desktop, Console, and Mobile versions of Terraria. The Daedalus Stormbow is a Hardmode bow which rains arrows down from the sky, instead of firing them from the bow itself. Each shot fires three arrows with an additional...

terraria.wiki.gg

Eventide

Desktop/Console/Mobile-Only Content: This information applies only to the Desktop, Console, and Mobile versions of Terraria. The Eventide is a Hardmode, post-Plantera bow that, when consuming Wooden Arrows as ammo, autofires five rainbow-colored Twilight Lance projectiles, with one of the lances...

terraria.wiki.gg

Aqua Scepter

The Aqua Scepter is a pre-Hardmode magic weapon that auto-fires an arcing stream of water particles. Each Water Stream can hit up to 5 targets. The Aqua Scepter has a 1/7 (14.29%) chance of being obtained from the Locked Gold Chests found in the Dungeon, as well as a 1/7 (14.29%) chance of being...

terraria.wiki.gg

Razorblade Typhoon

The Razorblade Typhoon is a Hardmode magic weapon that fires a large, fast, disc-shaped Typhoon projectile upon use that homes in on enemies. It can pierce and ricochet any number of times, lasting (Desktop, Console and Mobile versions) 2.5 / (Old-gen console and 3DS versions) 3 seconds. The...

terraria.wiki.gg

Bone Glove (yes, I went there)

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What this discussion is teaching me is that outside of its low armor defense, nobody can agree on what Summoner is or isn't good at, and to me that says it's a good class because that means it is good at something at every point in the game making it a fantastic generalist with a bunch of different ways to play