PC Summoner Discussion - What could be done to make it more viable?

[k1110n]

We call this 'not being a summoner'. Which is why you did so well. You weren't a summoner, you were melee, and toyed with a couple of minions. We're here talking about summoners.

Did I say I was playing as a summoner? No. All I was trying to point out are instances where summons appear way stronger than they should be. For example: I used the Imp Staff when I fought Skeletron Prime and it helped augment my damage while I solely used Sergeant United Shield as my only other weapon. Took me a good majority of the night to beat him, but I did it with just those two weapons and titanium armor (this was on master difficulty).

In the hands of just about anyone other than summoner, minions are actually way more useful than people seem to acknowledge, especially when I know I have a buff slot I can use to summon several of a specific type of minion. This is why I feel summoner really needs just way more options than just whips and dodging because half the time it feels like you do nothing as summoner since all the summon weapons, the non minion/sentry ones, are so niche it's sometimes not worth even attempting to use against specific bosses/enemies. The class would feel wholly different if it had something to do other than watch it's minions slowly kill someone's motivation to play the class (unless someone enjoys grindy hard challenges). This is also why I play this "melee summoner" class to basically use whips and summons as my "yo-yo" and still play a more close range melee tank with broadswords (or starlight/scourge) as my other primary weapon.

In the end, I don't think anyone can get away with not comparing summoner to other classes as there's no way to easily judge a class within its own scope. It's a whole lot easier to compare and contrast where and how summons are used and find a way to bring that feel or gameplay pattern to summoner than to assume that "more items" or "buffs" is the only way to make summoner better. I care way more about how the class feels than how it works on paper. Stats are stats, a playthrough is an experience.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

In the hands of just about anyone other than summoner, minions are actually way more useful than people seem to acknowledge, especially when I know I have a buff slot I can use to summon several of a specific type of minion. This is why I feel summoner really needs just way more options than just whips and dodging because half the time it feels like you do nothing as summoner since all the summon weapons, the non minion/sentry ones, are so niche it's sometimes not worth even attempting to use against specific bosses/enemies. The class would feel wholly different if it had something to do other than watch it's minions slowly kill someone's motivation to play the class (unless someone enjoys grindy hard challenges). This is also why I play this "melee summoner" class to basically use whips and summons as my "yo-yo" and still play a more close range melee tank with broadswords (or starlight/scourge) as my other primary weapon.

This is the issue I mostly have with ppl who critique the Summoner Class. There's no rule that says you have to use the Whip Weapons in every situation; there's also no rule that says you can't kit yourself out to mitigate the obvious flaws of being the Summoner Class, there's just too many defensive & evasive options that are Class neutral to justify this way of thinking, which is why I'm stil so confused by it.

Do you suddenly stop being a Summoner by equipping Master Ninja Gear, Frozen Shell or a Star Veil? No, of course not! Do you stop being a Summoner by equipping a bow, arrows or other types of Debuffs that'll help your Minions be more effective with DPS? No, of course not! Unless Minions were purposely changed in 1.4.0.5 to be less intelligent than they were in 1.3.5, these critiques aren't legitimate, because the general consensus back then, was that Summoner just needed a better progression path, period. Not sure how that's suddenly changed in 1.4.0.5, unless again, Minions were tampered with to promote Whips or something (which, if that's the case, I'm completely behind you guys).

In the end, I don't think anyone can get away with not comparing summoner to other classes as there's no way to easily judge a class within its own scope. It's a whole lot easier to compare and contrast where and how summons are used and find a way to bring that feel or gameplay pattern to summoner than to assume that "more items" or "buffs" is the only way to make summoner better. I care way more about how the class feels than how it works on paper. Stats are stats, a playthrough is an experience.

Every Class in Terraria benefits in some way or another by being a Hybrid, that's been true since like... forever ago. Which Class benefits the most & from what remains to be seen, as the Meta for each Class should be slightly different due to the changes in almost everything. I can't trust the words of anyone declaring things so early in the games updated life, especially when most of their complaints that I've addressed so far, typically have to do with lack of certain knowledge, which is understandable, but it happens so often that I'm left wondering if it's the actual game that's flawed, or am I listening to a person with a bruised ego? It's getting really hard to tell at this point...

 

[Pizzarugi]

I am a returning Terraria player who hasn't played since they added Wall of Flesh. Summons are a very new thing to me plus how flails got reworked (I like it), but I've always been a summoner nut from other games so naturally I was drawn to the playstyle here.

Whips are great on paper, but I feel like they need a lot of ironing out. For example, their sweeping arcs are detrimental if you're trying to have your minions single out certain enemies in a group. Plus it's a melee weapon dealing summon damage while you're wearing summoner armor that is the most fragile in the game. There's a very big difference in playstyles, going into melee range while being so delicate that some expert mode bosses will destroy you in a couple hits. Whips either need a much greater range or summoner armor must be made more resilient so you're not heavily punished for trying to smack something.

My other problem with summoner in 1.4 is the lack of availability.

Before you reach hardmode: Melee has multiple different craftable sword types with early metals, same with ranged and magic even though the latter uses gems. You can also find a myriad more weapons to add to your arsenal by exploring the world or killing monsters.
- The only early summoner weapon you can get is by hoping you get lucky to find a Finch Staff in your world.
- Slime Staff is so rare that it might as well not exist.
- Vampire Frog Staff requires getting lucky both having a Blood Moon to appear, having powerful pre-hardmode enemies spawn while fishing, and finally having them drop the weapon so it might as well not exist either.

That leaves you with the Hornet Staff which you can get by killing the Queen Bee enough times or crafting the Imp Staff, either of which already near the end of pre-hardmode. Most of the time in this state, you're either stuck with a Baby Finch or no minion at all.

When you reach hardmode:
- The earliest summoner stuff you can acquire is by farming Black Recluses which are in rare and tiny mini-biomes so you better hope you found it prior to reaching hardmode.
- Blade Staff is a decent alternative to the Spider Staff, but it's a rare drop from a rare mob, so good luck getting it in a reasonable time frame without chugging down a bunch of combat potions and staying near a water candle.
- Sanguine Staff? Same problem as Vampire Frog Staff, except now you have to kill a boss that is far stronger than you are equipped to actually fight it and by the time that you are, you probably already have a minion that's better anyway.
- Pirate Staff is astronomically rare. In my current expert mode world, I have a farm designed to lure pirates to kill themselves on lava without destroying items and have done 10+ invasions so far with the aid of farming Pirate Maps (I'm trying to get Lucky Coin), still haven't gotten the weapon. I'm already using a Stardust Dragon Staff.
- Raven Staff is virtually nonexistent considering the drop rarity and the difficulty of the bosses themselves at that part of the game.
- Deadly Sphere Staff is another exceptionally rare drop from a rare enemy spawned only during a Solar Eclipse event. By the time I got my first staff, I already got the Xeno Staff from the Martian Madness.
- Terraprisma requires you not only kill a boss that is exceptionally powerful, but while she's enraged and can 1shot you. If you're not a skilled player, this weapon is impossible to acquire.

The only hardmode summoner weapons you can reliably get is the Spider Staff, Optic Staff (took me ages to actually get strong enough to fight the mechanical bosses on expert mode as a summoner), Pygmy Staff (also took me ages), and both Stardust staves. Meanwhile, melee/ranged/magic classes can already build weapons and armors from hardmode materials to get started.

Who's really at an advantage here?

According to a youtube video I saw comparing DPS between the classes, summoner was 2nd lowest of the 4 for group clear and absolute lowest for single-target (melee just barely scraped by). So not only is summoner difficult to gear up, lacks variety in gear options and availability, but they're also terrible overall with the defensive strength of wet toilet paper. Melee may compete with summoner for worse DPS, but at least they can laugh at the Moon Lord while it tickles you.

In most cases, I had to not play summoner at all in order to progress the game.
- Against the Wall of Flesh, I had to resort to using a Hellwing Bow while passively driving away from it on a minecart because the imps simply can't put out enough DPS to kill it on their own.
- Against the mechanical bosses, I had to resort to primarily range or melee builds (even cheesing the Destroyer with Daedaelus Stormbow and Holy Arrows) because the spider minions have bad AI and can't feasibly reach the Twins or Skeletron Prime without significant terrain preparation (which turned out to be harmful for me later when dealing with Solar Eclipses and the Possessed Girls rushing me at light speed). Blade Staff was noticeably better here, but I had already beat them by that point.
- Never did get to kill Dreadnautilus before getting my Stardust Dragon Staff, so Sanguine Staff is worthless to me now
- Even now I'm struggling to complete a couple of the Celestial Pillars primarily as a summoner (don't get me STARTED on the solar one) because the mobs just hit so hard against my flimsy tiki armor.

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TL;DR:

My suggestions to make summoning more fun is the following:
1. Add more craftable options using metals and/or gems for both normal and hardmode.
2. Buff summoner weapons that can only be obtained from kills or finding in chests to make them worth finding and compete with crafted alternatives.
3. Increase the drop rate of some of the summoner weapons, especially the ones that drop from Blood Moon mobs/bosses.
4. Either nerf Dreadnautilus or buff Sanguine Staff
5a. Make summoner armors more durable to justify using whips in close range. Second most durable armor below melee would be ideal, but I'd settle on ranger-level of defense.
5b. Make minions actually minions and not just passive damage dealers. Allow them to intercept enemy attacks and block projectiles, allow them to take damage and give enemies the ability to aggro onto them. I played Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, I know what to expect, and it would justify your weak armor.
6. Make whips "poke" rather than sweep in order to more accurately tag enemies you want focused down.
7. Give whips more range if nothing is done about suggestion 5a/b.
8. At the very least, buff all minions across the board so they can actually kill bosses without your help. It's hard to call yourself a summoner when you're the one putting out more damage than your minions are most of the time.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I am a returning Terraria player who hasn't played since they added Wall of Flesh. Summons are a very new thing to me plus how flails got reworked (I like it), but I've always been a summoner nut from other games so naturally I was drawn to the playstyle here.

Hello & welcome back! I fully get your love for legacy classes, I play my games almost the same exact way, so I'm very glad you posted this. This has to be one of the most reasonable suggestions I've seen yet, let's discuss!

Whips are great on paper...Whips either need a much greater range or summoner armor must be made more resilient so you're not heavily punished for trying to smack something.

I can't be sure if this is intentional design by the developers or an oversight, but I've come to realize that there are too many micro-effects & macro-results between items of arguable effectiveness to be a mistake. Why are knock-back & DPS always competing between upgrades (or at least contrasting one another?), why are accuracy & scatter DMG always opposing as well, they're not just there for the sake of being there, right? So why?

This is how I approach nearly all of my games, especially the open-world & sandbox ones, so I'm always asking these kinds of questions & testing things out myself. If knock-back is MOSTLY used to keep enemies away, who benefits most from having knock-back? IMHO, a Ranger will typically have good movement, regardless of the build-type, so knock-back is a great concept, but... accuracy is probably more useful than knocking enemies around in unpredictable pathways. So again, who benefits from it most? Yes, most of the unique guns in the game tend to have great knock-back, to include some of the larger melee weapons, but what builds will really be using them like that?

Summoner, for the most part seems to have the least, to no Knock-back in the entire game. In addition, if we're looking at it from a purely Meta perspective, Summoner would benefit from having knock-back the most, right? Well, if that's the case, whats in the way to stop us, the players, from using a rather unused feature by most other Classes? As a person playing as a Summoner myself on Master Mode difficulty, Whips seem interchangeable. I can either melt enemies away slowly or rapidly, especially if I have their pattern down. The Whip IMHO, simply seems to be an eraser for advanced players. The only downside I can see from using Whips is that perhaps there could've been a tool-tip to express this fact, so players wouldn't feel boxed into trying to make the Whip work in instances it simply does not. However, however...

My other problem with summoner in 1.4 is the lack of availability...That leaves you with the Hornet Staff which you can get by killing the Queen Bee enough times or crafting the Imp Staff, either of which already near the end of pre-hardmode. Most of the time in this state, you're either stuck with a Baby Finch or no minion at all.

...this is where our perspectives start to diverge. It doesn't make sense to me, to analyse Summoner from a Meta perspective (listing off all the Summoner's items, where to get them, numbers, stats & comparisons), but fail to look at the game through the very same lens, why do that? If a player is informed on this level, why the failings in other basic areas that contribute to that information? Did you discover the Vampire Frog Staff on your own, or from a YouTube video? How do you know about the Finch Staff, did someone spoil it for you or did you play on Journey Mode first? I'm asking you these questions, only because most of your information seems microwaved.

That's one of the many pitfalls of spoiler culture & microwaved information, especially from some YouTuber... you rarely get to form your own experience, which robs you from forming your own unique opinions. I say this because I know for almost a fact, that Summoner is a stumble upon Class in Terraria. How can I prove it? Well, from what you-yourself just said & from my own, spoiler-free experience. You rarely get to craft anything Summoner-based, you either find it, get lucky or love it enough to invest in making it better, no matter how difficult. There's no room for complaining if that's true, because now I have to question why it is you'd think Summoner was anything like the big three, in any way at all (Melee, Ranger, Magic)?

If Summoner is indeed a stumble upon Class, no different than other games by-the-way, complaining about it's upgrade path is unwarranted, because you either a.) shouldn't know about it yet, b.) have invested into it enough by this point to know being a purist isn't required, or expected of you, c.) have already moved on because you naturally fell into a more comfortable playstyle, or d.) have played on Journey Mode to bypass the other luck-based factors, which is super Meta. None of these things occurred to you, which leads me to believe you skipped steps; someone spoon fed you this information or you were negatively impacted by spoiler culture.

When you reach hardmode:
- The earliest summoner stuff you can acquire is by farming Black Recluses which are in rare and tiny mini-biomes so you better hope you found it prior to reaching hardmode.
...- Terraprisma requires you not only kill a boss that is exceptionally powerful, but while she's enraged and can 1shot you. If you're not a skilled player, this weapon is impossible to acquire.

The only hardmode summoner weapons you can reliably get is the Spider Staff, Optic Staff (took me ages to actually get strong enough to fight the mechanical bosses on expert mode as a summoner), Pygmy Staff...

With everything you've just detailed, as true as it may be, if we both have to accept that Summoner is a stumble upon Class in Terraria, what now? All you would've done is analyse the progression path of an optional Class in this game through a warped, dirty lens. With this kind of narrative, we've turned a possibly intended mechanic, into a flaw by the Developers. What if Summoners progression path is supposed to be awkward, you may not like it, I may not like it, but to be fair, we shouldn't even know about it if it didn't initially interest us in the first place, should it? On the other hand, if it did, we should know about all the steps needed to get what it is we want on our own terms. How do I know you & others didn't do this part? Because you're listing stats & progression paths without any clear steps on how to get them organically, which means many of you probably shot through the game, darting for items you already knew about, before you even knew what it would take to get them; I can tell you that, only because I actually did it, naturally.

I have no idea what a Terraprisma is, I'm still developing the Meta for my current Summoner. How is it that I'm arguing against most of your opinions, but am still the only one who seems to still be in the gym? How am I schooling players about options they don't seem to know about, who've already, somehow beaten the game? Did you skip the entire first half or something? Why aren't you still developing your strategies, right this second? Summoner seems extremely powerful IMHO, but I know for a fact I have a LOT more exploring to do before I even try fighting a real Boss. I don't wanna seem accusational, but all the evidence is pointing toward the fact that you & others rushed, or had your information about Summoner spoon fed to you. If that's the case, I'm sorry that happened to you, you're truly missing out.

Who's really at an advantage here?

According to a youtube video I saw comparing DPS...

This is likely your biggest culprit. unless you've tested this information for yourself, don't go trusting what some YouTuber said, jsut because they toss some numbers & pretty graphics your way. They are human beings & subject to error, just like you & I. Did they list all of the things you're NOT doing while doing this showcase? What did their load-out consist of? Were they using any Emblems; if so how many? Were they using Potions; what kind of potions? Were you swapping Minions, using DoT, raw DPS, any Debuffs? All of this stuff matters & if you or that person didn't cover this information, it's an incomplete test, which is why labing is SUPER imperative!

In most cases, I had to not play summoner at all in order to progress the game...Even now I'm struggling to complete a couple of the Celestial Pillars primarily as a summoner (don't get me STARTED on the solar one) because the mobs just hit so hard against my flimsy tiki armor.

If you're having a rough time, I'm sorry to hear that, but it's something that can & will happen if your information is microwaved & not organic. What's your current load-out? Have you tried swapping accessories around, have you tried dumping everything into DPS while ignoring defense? Have you tried other Summoner Armors? Do you know the strengths & weaknesses that lead you to choose Tiki over any others?

1. What have you done to address your Classes fragility?
2. Are you using any items with high stun or knock-back?
3. Are you stacking Dot on top of your other passive DPS?
4. Are you going for accuracy of scatter DMG?
5. Have you tried seeing if certain Minions perform better than others during this event?

If you haven't done a good portion of these things, can you really critique the Class fairly? Better yet, is it fair to be giving the Developers tips on how to fix it, when it's totally plausible that it's not broken?

----

TL;DR:

My suggestions to make summoning more fun is the following:
1. Add more craftable options using metals and/or gems for both normal and hardmode.
2. Buff summoner weapons that can only be obtained from kills or finding in chests to make them worth finding and compete with crafted alternatives.
3. Increase the drop rate of some of the summoner weapons, especially the ones that drop from Blood Moon mobs/bosses.
4. Either nerf Dreadnautilus or buff Sanguine Staff
5a. Make summoner armors more durable to justify using whips in close range. Second most durable armor below melee would be ideal, but I'd settle on ranger-level of defense.
5b. Make minions actually minions and not just passive damage dealers. Allow them to intercept enemy attacks and block projectiles, allow them to take damage and give enemies the ability to aggro onto them. I played Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, I know what to expect, and it would justify your weak armor.
6. Make whips "poke" rather than sweep in order to more accurately tag enemies you want focused down.
7. Give whips more range if nothing is done about suggestion 5a/b.
8. At the very least, buff all minions across the board so they can actually kill bosses without your help. It's hard to call yourself a summoner when you're the one putting out more damage than your minions are most of the time.

Not too long & a very good read, I enjoyed reviewing your criticism! However, as a person who disagrees with your opinions, I have to do the obvious counterpoints.

1. If Summoner is a stumble upon Class in Terraria, then no, it shouldn't have these items. If you want a Summoner starting weapon, Journey Mode exists. This entire first section is invalidated by something fundamental, which is already a bad start.
2. I can't argue this point, if you feel Summoner is under-powered, that's a valid criticism, even if I disagree.
3. Why though? If Summoner is a stumble upon Class, as we covered earlier, the drop rate is working as intended IMHO.
4. Haven't fought this Boss or used this item, so I can't comment on this.
5. I don't agree with this, Summoner is one of the only Classes with passive damage at all times. This being the case, Summoner is the only Class in the game that can set up traps, builds, structures or devices without sacrificing it's main source of damage & doesn't lose out on focusing on scatter DMG over accuracy, typically because they don't have to specialize in any specific weapon (which also means that Weapon DPS is negligible in the face of versatility or reliability).
6. I don't agree with this, wild, sweeping DMG is the Summoner Classes' bread & butter, it fits the theme exactly as I described it to you. Whips are exactly as they should be IMHO (functionality over accuracy, non-committal over being purist).
7. I guess? It's not like Whips are extremely broken or anything. I don't think a slight buff would hurt anything, but I do know that "Large" is Tinkering option with Melee-base/ melee-like weaponry, so that's already in the game if it happens to work for Whips too.
8. This I'm totally against. Your Minions can already, pretty much kill most things without you lifting a finger. In fact, you can farm Enemy Banners by standing in one spot most times & doing nothing. For that to translate over to Bosses is a bit extreme IMHO. I don't want any Class in this game that would allow you to turn your brain off like that, it'd be toxic for the entire game in the long run... not thanks!

 

[Pizzarugi]

...this is where our perspectives start to diverge. It doesn't make sense to me, to analyse Summoner from a Meta perspective (listing off all the Summoner's items, where to get them, numbers, stats & comparisons), but fail to look at the game through the very same lens, why do that? If a player is informed on this level, why the failings in other basic areas that contribute to that information? Did you discover the Vampire Frog Staff on your own, or from a YouTube video? How do you know about the Finch Staff, did someone spoil it for you or did you play on Journey Mode first? I'm asking you these questions, only because most of your information seems microwaved.

I look at the weapons and their power and functionality relative to the rarity and difficulty to obtain. The Finch Staff, for example, relies entirely on the luck of terrain gen to exist in your world. The Vampire Frog Staff relies on several layers of RNG and your capability of fighting very strong pre-hardmode mobs to obtain. Does their power justify their exceptional rarity compared to melee/range/magic weapons of equivalent power? I don't think so.

Don't take my word for it, I discovered all of this information on the wiki including who drops what and the chances of the drops happening. The biggest reason I came back is because my boyfriend offered to play with me and told me the game has summons. He didn't tell me exactly what summons were available or how to get them, my passion for summoning playstyles drew me to the wiki on my own to learn more about it. And I've played all the way to Moon Lord to have an accurate enough experience to provide feedback on this.

I should also make mention that this isn't my first playthrough either. My boyfriend and I played together up to and past Moon Lord on classic difficulty before we started over again on expert mode. We got as far as killing Wall of Flesh before PSO2 came out and he went off to go play that, leaving me to make a solo character and try the game alone on expert. I managed to get up to Moon Lord on expert mode on my own using what summoner gear I was able to find thanks to the difficulty of obtaining it.

And my experience leads me to believe there's more fleshing out needed to make summoner a viable class that can stand with the others. Right now, it feels very shallow, buried, and overall weak.

[...]why it is you'd think Summoner was anything like the big three, in any way at all (Melee, Ranger, Magic)?

Because there's been a couple instances where you do get to craft summoner equipment, weapons and armor both. The Hornet Staff and Bee Armor are the earliest examples of being able to make the gear yourself. Another example is early hardmode when you get hallowed bars and you can make the hood and Durendal. Finally, there's a fourth Celestial Pillar dedicated entirely to it which gives me the impression that the class has some level of significance and an endgame class to progress (read: not stumble) towards, otherwise the devs could've just had 3 Pillars and be done with it. A "stumble upon" build as you call it would be an afterthought, an addition to one of the "big three" rather than something that could stand out on its own.

There's nothing that says summoner can't be designed in much as the same way as the big three, but because its a fairly recent implementation, it currently lacks the depth needed. I fear that it'll never be fully realized now, because 1.4 is "Journey's End" so no more major content means no significant changes will be made for summoner.

If Summoner is indeed a stumble upon Class, no different than other games by-the-way, complaining about it's upgrade path is unwarranted, because you either a.) shouldn't know about it yet, b.) have invested into it enough by this point to know being a purist isn't required, or expected of you, c.) have already moved on because you naturally fell into a more comfortable playstyle, or d.) have played on Journey Mode to bypass the other luck-based factors, which is super Meta. None of these things occurred to you, which leads me to believe you skipped steps; someone spoon fed you this information or you were negatively impacted by spoiler culture.

We are making assumptions about a summoner class which, and I'll be fair here, we can't be certain of it's intention. You wish to assume it's meant to be a stumble upon build, and I wish to assume it's a fourth class that was added very late in the game's development starting from the top down. There's nothing that proves either way which one of us is correct, and unless a dev comes out and says something, all we can do is deduce based on reason and experience.

I'm not sure why "spoiler culture" is necessary in this discussion, either. I'm very passionate about summoner playstyles and if a game has it, I often dive into the intricacies of it. In my personal opinion, when you have a pillar from an endgame event dedicated to a single class that inspires progression towards it, the rest of the game shouldn't be keeping it a secret that you can only learn about by stumbling upon it.

That sounds like something meant for a super class which summoner isn't (nor do I want). Examples of hidden super powers are also in a number of older games as well (Vandal Hearts has a hidden class for the main protagonist, and Sonic 3 (&Knuckles) gives you godmode if you can complete all of the chaos emerald AND super emerald secret encounters).

With everything you've just detailed, as true as it may be, if we both have to accept that Summoner is a stumble upon Class in Terraria, what now? All you would've done is analyse the progression path of an optional Class in this game through a warped, dirty lens. With this kind of narrative, we've turned a possibly intended mechanic, into a flaw by the Developers. What if Summoners progression path is supposed to be awkward, you may not like it, I may not like it, but to be fair, we shouldn't even know about it if it didn't initially interest us in the first place, should it? On the other hand, if it did, we should know about all the steps needed to get what it is we want on our own terms. How do I know you & others didn't do this, because you're listing stats & progression paths without an clear step on how to get them organically, which means many of you probably shot through the game, darting for items you already knew about, before you even knew what it would take to get there. I can tell you, only because I actually did it, naturally.

Well I can tell you this much that I don't agree that summoner is a stumble-upon class. It's all very well possible that summoner was an intended class, but was not implemented smoothly. I'm not saying this is bad, goodness knows a lot of good things had some bad beginnings. To this end, I disagree on the devs intending summoner progression to be awkward, but rather left with a lot of holes and missing progression path that can be corrected.

I have no idea what a Terraprisma is, I'm still developing the Meta from my current Summoner.

https://terraria.wiki.gg/Terraprisma

Seeing as how you are concerned about spoiler culture more than I am, I won't go into detail about it here. If you're curious, however, I've left the link to its wiki.

How am I schooling players about options they don't seem to know about, who've already, somehow beaten the game?

That seems needlessly hostile and arrogant, especially considering all we've done so far is disagree on our opinion regarding intention of the summoner class.

This is likely your biggest culprit. unless you've tested this information for yourself, don't go trusting what some YouTuber said, jsut because they toss some numbers & pretty graphics your way. They are human beings & subject to error, just like you & I. Did they list all of the things you're NOT doing while doing this showcase? What did their load-out consist of? Were they using any Emblems; if so how many? Where they using Potions; what kind of potions? Where you swapping Minions, using DoT, raw DPS, any Debuffs? All of this stuff matters & if you or that person didn't cover this information, it's an incomplete test, which is why labing is SUPER imperative!

Yeah sure, I can link you to the video and see for yourself:

He covers the maximum DPS values of summoner and the big three with their best weapons. Food was used (Pumpkin Pie) and so were potions that affects damage such as Wrath Potion. He also used a number of equipment that improves damage for each respective class and has them rolled with Menacing (+4% damage). We're talking minmax damage.

And while I haven't personally tried testing the minmax damage setups (considering I don't have any of the endgame gear for the big three), I can say for certain from experience that if you went pure summoner against bosses, you're going to have a very bad time unless you're good at dodging.

1. What have you done to address your Classes fragility?
2. Are you using any items with high stun or knock-back?
3. Are you stacking Dot on top of your other passive DPS?
4. Are you going for accuracy of scatter DMG?
5. Have you tried seeing if certain Minions perform better than others during this event?

1. Ironskin Potion, food, Endurance Potion, and all of my equipment has Armored or Warding. Tiki is the most defensive pre-Moon Lord summoner armor with 5 armor more than Spooky Armor at the cost of having weaker minion damage modifiers. I've also personally hollowed out huge arenas for underground bosses and provided small pools of honey, fire pits, and heart lanterns for HP regen with banners for hardmode mobs to make them less threatening during the fight. I also have a Celestial Shell a Shrimpy Truffle, and I have the intention of making a massive-scale water arena in the sky to fight Moon Lord (or I would if making infinite water wasn't so darn tedious). The only way I'm gonna get any tankier is if I drop my summoner armor for Beetle Armor and farm a world with Crimson in it to get several defensive equipment like Flesh Knuckles, Berserker's Glove, and Brain of Confusion, but that kinda defeats the purpose of being a summoner.
2. What summoner gear gives high stun or knockback? The closest thing you get that improves summon knockback is the Hercules Beetle or the Papyrus Scarab, and most whips except the Morning Star have terrible knockback bases.
3. What DoTs do summoners have access to? The closest thing I've got, since I don't use whips, is Daybreak and Solar Eruption.
4. Both. I use Solar Eruption against groups and Daybreak for single-target (except against Moon Lord since he moves too fast for me to land the spears on him)
5. I've found the Stardust Cells to be better for the Celestial Pillars since they can split up and attack multiple enemies, and the Dragon is good for Moon Lord.

1. If Summoner is a stumble upon Class in Terraria, then no, it shouldn't have these items. If you want a Summoner starting weapon, Journey Mode exists. This entire first section is invalidated by something fundamental, which is already a bad start.

This is going to be another "agree to disagree" since we both have differing opinions on the summoner build's implementation. I'm going to hold out hope more work is put into fleshing out the build to make progression less painful.

2. I can't argue this point, if you feel Summoner is under-powered, that's a valid criticism, even if I disagree.

This is based on if my first point gets addressed or not.

3. Why though? If Summoner is a stumble upon Class, as we covered earlier, the drop rate is working as intended IMHO.

Again, agree to disagree because of differing opinions.

5. I dont agree with this, Summoner is one of the only Classes with passive damage at all times. This being the case, Summoner is the only Class in the game that can set up traps, builds, structures or devices without sacrificing it's main source of damage 7 doesn't lose out on focusing on scatter DMG over accuracy, typically because they don't have to specialize in any specific weapon (which also means that Weapon DPS is negligible in the face of versatility or reliability).

And that's why I suggested an alternative via making the enemies able to target and attack minions. Its very possible to have low armor and still make it work, but not if the boss is singling you out all of the time. If your minions can take the brunt of the attack and perhaps die in your stead, it would make your frailty more justified. But as it stands, when the idea is that you're supposed to be using a whip which is technically melee, you're putting yourself in serious danger just to give your minion a little bit of extra damage and target focus.

6. I don't agree with this, wild, sweeping DMG is the Summoner Classes' bread & butter, it fits the theme exactly as I described it to you. Whips are exactly as they should be IMHO (functionality over accuracy, non-committal over being purist).

That functionality, while I would otherwise agree with your statement, also directly conflicts with its secondary feature of tagging enemies which causes minions to focus them and deal increased damage or apply special effects depending on the whip used. Try tagging a Pirate Captain in a group of Deckhands and Corsairs, or a Nailhead surrounded by Frankensteins and Fritses, or the left Golem fist. I will concede if the whip tagged every enemy struck at the cost of not having the minion focus them instead.

7. I guess? It's not like Whips are extremely broken or anything. I don't think a slight buff would hurt anything, but I do know that "Large" is Tinkering option with Melee-base/ melee-like weaponry, so that's alreay in the game if it happens to work for Whips too.

Technically correct, but whips also gain increased range with slower attack speed too, according to the wiki. A +size -speed mod is the most ideal, but it's still not by much.

8. This I'm totally against. Your Minions can already, pretty much kill most things without you lifting a finger. In fact, you can farm Enemy Banners by standing in one spot most times & doing nothing. For that to translate over to Bosses is a bit extreme IMHO. I don't want any Class in this game that would allow you to turn your brain off like that, it'd be toxic for the entire game in the long run... not thanks!

Have you tried just letting your Fire Imp minions fight the Wall of Flesh or Skeletron on their own? I have on expert mode to see if I could. I can't. The WoF will reach one end of the world to the other and instantly kill me, and Skeletron will 1shot me when the dawn comes. They simply can't put out enough damage to fight bosses. I'm not suggesting the minions get buffed to have boss-killer damage which directly translate to fighting regular monsters.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

I say this because I know for almost a fact, that Summoner is a stumble upon Class in Terraria. How can I prove it? Well, from what you-yourself just said & from my own, spoiler-free experience. You rarely get to craft anything Summoner-based, you either find it, get lucky or love it enough to invest in making it better, no matter how difficult.

The Queen Bee drops materials that get crafted into most people's first summon weapon and summon armor. And that's pre-Hardmode. The Imp Staff is crafted. The Spider Staff is crafted, along with the every summon armor except the Tiki Armor.

So your evidence of the Summoner being a "stumble upon class" is lacking. It would be more accurate to say that the pre-Queen Bee minions are previews, little bonuses that you can accidentally find before introducing the class properly.

Overall, the best way to see it is that the Summoner is not a class you're introduced to at the start; it's a class that happens part-way through the game.

There's no room for complaining if that's true, because now I have to question why it is you'd think Summoner was anything like the big three, in any way at all (Melee, Ranger, Magic)?

So, why does the Summoner get its own damage type? Why does it get its own emblem? Why does it get it's own Pillar during the Lunar Events?

None of those things make sense in a world where the Summoner wasn't like the other 3 classes. And that's what the Summoner was like pre-1.2.4. That's what "throwing" weapons were like pre-1.4 (when they were folded into Ranged).

We know what "not a core class" looks like in Terraria, and the Summoner clearly is meant to be a core class at this point.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

The Queen Bee drops materials that get crafted...The Imp Staff is crafted. The Spider Staff is crafted, along with the every summon armor except the Tiki Armor...your evidence of the Summoner being a "stumble upon class" is lacking. It would be more accurate to say that the pre-Queen Bee minions are previews, little bonuses that you can accidentally find before introducing the class properly.

It's something I've considered, but it'd be disingenuous to give biased information as opposed to what's actually presented. What you're describing is something akin to the DD2 Summoner Class, that's unlocked by completing Events & normal game progression. There's no RNG involved, unlike Early Game Summoner Class.

Obvious Examples:

• Variegated Lardfish
• Finch Staff
• Vampire Frog Staff
• ???
• Spooky Armor
• Raven Staff??
• Deadly Sphere Staff

So, why does the Summoner get its own damage type? Why does it get its own emblem? Why does it get it's own Pillar during the Lunar Events?

Likely because it's not a Mini-Class, but a stumble upon that can actually be completed, again, just like other games. Being introduced to the Class later in the game doesn't make it just one or the other, it can be both (I play a lot of sandbox & open-world games so, it's not a new concept to me).

Some Mini-Classes (in game):

• Lancer/ Mounted Lance
• Paladin
• Throwing
• Fisherman
• ???

None of those things make sense in a world where the Summoner wasn't like the other 3 classes. And that's what the Summoner was like pre-1.2.4. That's what "throwing" weapons were like pre-1.4 (when they were folded into Ranged).

I'm not sure what you mean, as each new update was worked to refine already-existing content. Thrower Class was likely discontinued because it was redundant & didn't add anything interesting to the game. Summoner was fleshed out & feels much more complete, this goes for other Classes I've also dabbled in (namely Mage). If that kind of Class is a new concept to you, I can understand the confusion, but either description is fine. The difference between the two is splitting hairs at best. I'm totally cool with "later game Class", makes no difference to me. LoL

 

[Nicol Bolas]

It's something I've considered, but it'd be disingenuous to give biased information as opposed to what's actually presented. What you're describing is something akin to the DD2 Summoner Class, that's unlocked by completing Events & normal game progression. There's no RNG involved, unlike Early Game Summoner Class.

There is no "early game summoner class". There are merely a few summon staff drops that you're unlikely to find. One weapon does not a class make.

Not in Terraria.

In any case, my point is that there's no RNG involved in getting summoner gear from the Queen Bee. Therefore, any player that's doing basic exploration will get access to summoner gear. And therefore, finding out about summoners is not something players "stumble upon"; it's part of the game's progression.

Some Mini-Classes (in game):

• Lancer/ Mounted Lance
• Paladin
• Throwing
• Fisherman
• ???

In Terraria, "classes" are defined by your armor. Specifically, armor that couples with the weapon type, giving bonuses to particular weapon types over others. You could make the argument that fishing "armor" counts as a class. But none of the other things are "classes" as far as Terraria is concerned (throwing used to have an armor set).

I'm not sure what you mean, as each new update was worked to refine already-existing content.

My point is that the Summoner is just as much of a class as melee, ranged, or magic at this point. This is clearly the intention of the developers, and the idea with the game is not that you will just "stumble upon" summoner, that it's some option you randomly find occasionally. It's a fully-fledged option within the game.

Maybe that's not what you mean by "stumble upon class." The name of the term carries with it the direct implication that you could bypass it, that you could play the game without "stumbling upon" it, that it's something ultimately peripheral to the core experience of Terraria.

If that's not what you mean, perhaps you could explain what this concept is.

 

[Tarluk]

In any case, my point is that there's no RNG involved in getting summoner gear from the Queen Bee. Therefore, any player that's doing basic exploration will get access to summoner gear. And therefore, finding out about summoners is not something players "stumble upon"; it's part of the game's progression.

But you'll have to kill the Queen Bee a fair few times to get access to the full set. One kill will be just enough to get the Hornet Staff, but it's not always enough to craft a piece of armor. And the Queen Bee isn't really a boss that's pushed all that heavily in pre-Hardmode, at least not to the same level as the Eater of Worlds or Skeletron. One trek through the Dungeon will make anyone more than equipped enough to handle the Underworld if they so choose, so it isn't entirely unrealistic to say that the Jungle will be skipped over by a lot of players, unless they actively decide to pursue it either as a bonus after the Dungeon or as an alternative to the traditional Dungeon crawl.

Compare the Bee Armor to all other classes' pre-Hardmode sets: the Shadow Armor is the easiest out of the bunch to obtain, only requiring one Eater of Worlds kill early on: you'll always get enough scales to craft a full set of Shadow Armor and a Nightmare Pickaxe. Molten Armor is simply part of the natural ore progression, obtainable with ore littered across the entirety of the Underworld. Necro Armor just requires you to kill a bunch of enemies within the Dungeon, and by the time you fully explore it for all of its Golden Chests, you'll have killed more than enough to craft the full set, Meteor Armor just needs one meteorite to be mined (which shouts its mere existance to all players in the game) and even Jungle Armor only requires light exploration within the Underground Jungle, easily obtainable even for those who only briefly travel through. Even the now-dead Throwing class had more armor sets and weapons at its disposal during pre-Hardmode, with Ninja Armor requiring farming of a boss even earlier than the Eater of Worlds and Fossil Armor being similar to the Jungle Armor's requirements but for the Desert rather than the Jungle.

Meanwhile, the Bee Armor requires you to not only have explored for long enough in the Jungle to find a hive (which can be easier said than done in a lot of unfortunate seeds) but to also kill the Queen Bee once just to get one of the few weapons the set works with, and then a maximum of 2 more times to get the actual armor. How many players are really going to stick around at this stage of the game long enough to kill the Queen Bee three times in a row to get the only pre-Hardmode summoner set and one of the very few pre-Hardmode summon weapons when they could have just done the Dungeon, gotten Jungle Armor, mined one single Meteorite, or skipped either of those stages to go straight to the Underworld in a much shorter period of time?

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

There is no "early game summoner class". There are merely a few summon staff drops that you're unlikely to find. One weapon does not a class make...Not in Terraria.

I mean, I don't agree or disagree. That's pretty much true for every Class then, until you start gearing up? For the sake of argument though, what happens if you get access to a Finch Staff, Slime Staff & Summoner Potions first, before really touching anything else. At that point you'll have access to two Minions. It's like splitting hairs, which is why I don't think it's worth arguing one way or another. Your opinion is valid & I don't necessarily disagree so...

In any case, my point is that there's no RNG involved in getting summoner gear from the Queen Bee. Therefore, any player that's doing basic exploration will get access to summoner gear. And therefore, finding out about summoners is not something players "stumble upon"; it's part of the game's progression.

Now this I can't agree with. Queen Bee isn't essential to progression & can easily be skipped or missed. She's definitely stumble upon content.

In Terraria, "classes" are defined by your armor. Specifically, armor that couples with the weapon type, giving bonuses to particular weapon types over others. You could make the argument that fishing "armor" counts as a class. But none of the other things are "classes" as far as Terraria is concerned (throwing used to have an armor set).

Cenx/ Leinfors called it a Class (Throwing Class), take it up with Re-Logic, not me, I just play this game. LoL

My point is that the Summoner is just as much of a class as melee, ranged, or magic at this point. This is clearly the intention of the developers, and the idea with the game is not that you will just "stumble upon" summoner, that it's some option you randomly find occasionally. It's a fully-fledged option within the game.

If you say so... the evidence strongly disagrees with this though...

Maybe that's not what you mean by "stumble upon class." The name of the term carries with it the direct implication that you could bypass it, that you could play the game without "stumbling upon" it, that it's something ultimately peripheral to the core experience of Terraria...If that's not what you mean, perhaps you could explain what this concept is.

Nope, you got it right the first time. Summoner Class can be totally missed/ skipped. Unless you discover Queen Bee, or maybe some other mid-to late-game content I haven't discovered yet, Summoner can be completely skipped.

 

[Tarluk]

If you say so... the evidence strongly disagrees with this though...

No, at this point it's very safe to say that the Summoner is absolutely meant to be on par with the other classes in the developers' eyes. It's not some experimental thing that they ultimately decided to throw away; It's got a Wall of Flesh emblem just like the other classes, it's got plenty of accessories and a class-dedicated table made specifically for it, and it's got an entire Lunar Pillar made for it. It has everything that the Throwing class which was scrapped didn't have...but at the same time, it doesn't have anything that the Throwing class did (actual pre-hardmode progression).

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

@Pizzarugi , I don't wanna go back & forth about things that won't be helpful to you (I totally misunderstood your position). So, I'll stop doing the whole point for point style & focus on addressing your concerns. Here's a list of things that may help you, as DPS can always be modified & adjusted to your liking with a certain amount of creativity.

A.) If you haven't taken any of the DD2 Summoner Classes for a spin (they're extremely powerful btw), I suggest you give it a try & see how you feel about it. You'll still technically be a Summoner, but you'll likely have the defense & specialized Weapon Class you're looking for. I strongly suggest the Apprentice & Dark Artist set-ups, since you prefer ranged combat.

B.) The learning curve might be too high for standard Summoner, seeing as how you were brought into the game with a veteran player & left to fend for yourself, you might have a warped perception of progression (vets tend to do a lot of skips in Terraria) Again, try out the DD2 Summoner Classes to get a basic understanding of how it's supposed to be played, without the steep punishment for making mistakes; Summoner is pretty diverse.

• Monk Summoner
• Huntress Summoner
• Apprentice Summoner
• Squire Summoner

C.) Get Practice fighting against the Old One's Army. It's good experience & also your natural progression path, it's pay-to-win, you don't have to worry about killing a Boss really. Slamming your face into the event is enough to net you the items you'll need. Don't take my word for it though, try it yourself & give us feedback on your progress if you're feeling up to it...

Addendum: 06-17-2020

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I think I should add just one more list of helpful tools/ tips that Summoners can use, they're arguably Class Neutral, every Class can benefit from 'em, but Summoners' unique play-style promotes & encourages it (i.e. good movement, scatter DMG over accuracy).

• Crimson Rod
• Spiky Ball(s) & Ranger Emblem (optional)
• Bee Gun (scatter DMG)*
• Shotgun/ Onyx Blaster* + Explosive Bullets [Venom Rounds/ Nano Bullets] & Ranger Emblem (Scatter DMG)
• Clinger Staff (insane knock-back)
• Nimbus Rod
• Poison Staff/ Venom Staff (DoT)
• Cursed Darts/ Ichor Darts* (+ any Blowgun or Dart gun & Ranger Emblem)

(*) Represents items that are better for Hybrid setups, but will likely be frowned upon by purists.

 

[Dragrath]

Summoners already have an accessory tree; they have to sacrifice a number of slots just to play their class effectively. Forcing them to sacrifice more isn't helpful.

I think the problem is that unlike other classes they don't get accessories which really combo as were their accessories to combo like other classes it would enable higher minion counts to everyone. To compensate perhaps some otherwise general accessory traits could be comboed via tinkers in a way where their effects scale based on the number of available minions/Sentries? For example say a shield which can be actively used to drastically increase defense based off the number of active minions or say an accessory which lets you occasionally dodge an attack (like Hallowed armor Brain of Confusion or the Black Belt) at the temporary cost of a minion the chance of which would be based off the number of summons you have.

Another aspect which might help differentiate more dedicated summoning from other class with a minion or two tacked on is scaling summon damage based off the number of summon slots currently active this would enable summon mixing to be a far more rewarded trait while also providing a way to reward more complete summon builds. For most minions I would set their current stats to be that for 3 summon slots while weaker summons like Slime, Finch, Vampire Frog etc. would be best set to be for default 1 minion so as to in effect buff them.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I think the problem is that unlike other classes they don't get accessories which really combo...at the temporary cost of a minion the chance of which would be based off the number of summons you have.

Summoner is already obnoxiously powerful & doesn't need any more buffs. Take a look at this nonsense --> If combined with the Necromantic Scroll, Hercules Beetle, Summoner Emblem and Papyrus Scarab, the resulting minions will get a total of 113% increased damage. [Source]

Another aspect which might help differentiate more dedicated summoning from other class with a minion or two tacked on is scaling summon damage based off the number of summon slots...3 summon slots while weaker summons like Slime, Finch, Vampire Frog etc. would be best set to be for default 1 minion so as to in effect buff them.

No, this is the reason Whips were added to the game. Pre-Hardmode, Summoner now has access to Summoner Potions, Bewitching Tables, 3 Summoning Staffs, one dedicated Armor Set & 2-3 Whips. I'd argue that this class is the most spoiled of them all, especially when it comes to game-play options.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Summoner is already obnoxiously powerful & doesn't need any more buffs. Take a look at this nonsense --> If combined with the Necromantic Scroll, Hercules Beetle, Summoner Emblem and Papyrus Scarab, the resulting minions will get a total of 113% increased damage. [Source]

I don't think anybody is saying that summoners don't work at all in the mid-game. The primary issue has been about early game, where basically none of that is available.

Also, 113% isn't particularly great when early post-Hardmode summons are doing 35-40 damage, while the Dao of Pow does 100 damage per throw.

No, this is the reason Whips were added to the game. Pre-Hardmode, Summoner now has access to Summoner Potions, Bewitching Tables, 3 Summoning Staffs, one dedicated Armor Set & 2-3 Whips. I'd argue that this class is the most spoiled of them all, especially when it comes to game-play options.

"The most spoiled"? Every other class has dozens of pre-Hardmode weapons, and most of them are far easier to find than every pre-Hardmode staff except for the Hornet staff. Melee and mage classes have a wide variety of weapons that support distinct playstyles (being a sword-using melee character is a different experience from a mace-using one). Ranged characters have a choice between rapid-firing-but-low-damage guns and slow-firing-but-high-damage bows (with archery potions to add on damage for the latter). Every other class has at least two pre-Hardmode dedicated armor sets.

So I fail to see how "spoiled" Summoners are.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I don't think anybody is saying that summoners don't work at all in the mid-game. The primary issue has been about early game, where basically none of that is available.

Everyone can pretty much agree that no class is clearly defined in Early-Game. Some live by the idea that you're not truly Class A or B until you get the Armor. Some say there's no real Classes until you get the Emblem. If that's the case, Queen Bee is arguably Post-EoW/ BoC content, dealing with either her or Skeletron afterward is a toss-up IMHO. Which makes sense because a.) defeating Skelly Boy might just net you a free Bewitching Table, or b.) Queen Bee will net you-your first official Armor Set. I see no reason to try to conform to being a Summoner Purist when you get free passive DMG + whatever else you wanna equip. Which means, Summoner will benefit from Archery Potions, Wrath Potions, or anything else you wanna stack on top of that free DMG.

"The most spoiled"? Every other class has dozens of pre-Hardmode weapons, and most of them are far easier to find...Every other class has at least two pre-Hardmode dedicated armor sets...So I fail to see how "spoiled" Summoners are.

You can't beat free, passive DMG + anything else you want. I mean, you can literally find your first Minion laying around in a Tree somewhere. On top of that, you can easily start fishing & plucking herbs (or finding them in Overworld Chests) to craft Summoning potions, netting you two Minions; quality over quantity.

 

[Dapling]

You can't beat free, passive DMG + anything else you want. I mean, you can literally find your first Minion laying around in a Tree somewhere. On top of that, you can easily start fishing & plucking herbs (or finding them in Overworld Chests) to craft Summoning potions, netting you two Minions; quality over quantity.

Free passive damage isn't free and passive when it actively knocks things into you. Also have you tried fishing in the jungle in earlygame?

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Free passive damage isn't free and passive when it actively knocks things into you. Also have you tried fishing in the jungle in earlygame?

What's funny is that... fishing in general is easy to do as a Summoner. Especially if you've killed Queen Bee enough times to be considered "official".

 

[Dapling]

What's funny is that... fishing in general is easy to do as a Summoner. Especially if you've killed Queen Bee enough times to be considered "official".

What's funny is that... I didn't even mention summoner. I said jungle fishing is hard in early game.

Which, according to someone earlier in this thread:

Everyone can pretty much agree that no class is clearly defined in Early-Game.

Exactly. But that doesn't mean the classes are balanced with each other in early-game. I can just craft 100 torches, complete the torch god a few times (or fish in a tiny pond next to my house if for whatever reason you can't do that event, things you can catch are 5 silver minimum, and if you can't even do that fallen stars sell for 5 silver each and are also ridiculously common now) get 27 gold, use 2 bombs from pots on a Crimson Heart, then buy a minishark and blaze through the rest of prehardmode, including Queen Bee, no Bee armor, summoning potions, or bewitching table needed. It's not even difficult to pull off, the only detours you need to really make are maybe a blood moon for the shark tooth necklace, or the Brain for Crimson Armor. Summoner isn't spoiled and isn't strong in earlygame. Just look at the many ridiculous options rangers alone have:

• Grenades: Completely invalidate crowds in literally every prehardmode biome, and can even take down bosses if you're feeling particularly brazen.
• Gold Bow: It literally has higher dps than one imp, and still had higher dps when the spam-summon trick existed in 1.3.5.
• Minishark: Nothing needs to be said., except it's even easier to obtain than ever because of how ridiculous and broken the economy is now.
• Jester's Arrows. Crowds too big and overwhelming for even grenades? Craft these arrows made from a material that's even more common than it used to be and invalidate them even more completely.

What does summoner have? A weapon which is in melee range and yet has only comparable dps to any of these. Not superior, comparable, and two unreliable tiny animals which require multiple layers of ridiculous RNG to obtain. One of which drifts around enemies instead of hitting them most of the time, and when they do hit they often knock enemies into you and make you take cheap hits. The other just has it's performance fail miserably against everything that can fly (every boss except king slime and eater of worlds, who are both incredibly optional and if you know what you're doing you can't even fight one of them most of the time.)