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Official TCF 2nd Year Anniversary Winners Announcement!

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Kazzymodus

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
[This format] is something we are going to be aiming for in the future.
I think this is a fundamentally bad idea. And I think that for this exact reason:
Everyone, regardless of talent, had an equal shot this year.
You should not confuse equality with fairness. Equality does not necessarily result in fairness, and fairness is not necessarily the result of equality.

First things first: I understand why a new format, which is more based on creativity and individual expression, was chosen over a format that is more based on creativity and execution: to prevent people that are very experienced in a specific medium from winning each year. And I'm fine with that, I truly am. However, to completely abolish skill based competitions is just as, if not more, unfair as/than permanently keeping them.

Every single artist (by which I mean someone who practices an art, be it visual, literary, musical or otherwise) on these forums, and in extension, the planet, is an artist because they choose to be. That is to say they invest time and resources to develop that skill, as opposed to just being born with a talent. Rendering that experience null and void for everyone might seem fair at first, but it has multiple caveats:
  1. Artist rely on that dedication they've put into their field: they are going to make a drawing if drawing is what they are best at, and they are going to write a song if songwriting is what they are best at. If the highest quality work they can produce is by using a certain skill, then they will do so, on the one hand because they feel it's the best way to express themselves and/or their idea, on the other hand because they are expected to (we didn't expect our foremost visual artist to submit anything else than a drawing, did we?). So if execution doesn't matter, experienced artist are at a disadvantage because they are forced to go for a medium that is going to rank low on originality, while how well they do in that medium is moot.
  2. Conversely, it provides an advantage to niche skills, which give you an originality bonus if you happen to be proficient in one. If you would have to choose between favouring niche skills and favouring traditional skills (which more people practice), then the latter would, from a purely mathematical point of view, be more fair. It wouldn't be a 100% fair, but definitely more fair.
  3. Creativity and expression are themselves skills: they can be trained and developed. So in any way you slice it, a contest like this, whether last year's or this year's format, is going to have a component of skill.
Contest, per definition, can't be fair: it's always going to favour some group of people over another. But if you want to make future contests as fair as possible, then you would have to alternate: one year a skill based competition, the other year an expression based one. Which is the suggestion that I will leave you with.

But that's for next time. For now, allow me to congratulate all the winners! I won't pretend not to be disappointed, but nevertheless, it was an honour to have sparred alongside you!
 

MinerTurtle45

Duke Fishron
Oh my...
I didn't really expect to win the contest.
Thus, I haven't prepared a speech.. Oh you didn't want one ? Good then.

In any case, I am glad to have been able to show my ideas of turning Bosses into Hearthstone cards.
The funny thing is, Re-Logic announced the Dungeon Defenders II Crossover a few days after I submitted my idea..
(Will we see a Hearthstone Crossover ? (I don't think so, unfortunately.))

I have to thank the Staff again for having given me a second chance at it though, I would have been saddening to have been forbidden to participate because of some problems.
After all, for the Moon Lord...
And this was not my art (Too terrible at drawing.)
that drawing is better than i could ever do
 

Loki

Consigliere
Staff member
Re-Logic
Administrator
Huge congrats to the winners - and I really loved seeing ALL of the entries. Embodiment of the kind of spirit we know and love from our community!

Glad to see a contest of a different sort this time - was a fun offshoot from the usual "Executional Skill" based competitions. Personally, would love to see a mix of both moving ahead.....its not like its an either/or as some seem to surmise. We can have chocolate and peanut butter....unless you are allergic to peanuts, of course. :)

Kudos to the staff team for pulling all of this together and doing all of the hard work (and it is a ton of work, I know) for this contest! Looking forward to the next one. :cool:
 

Chocosta

Paladin
Seeing my entry being recognized as good made me want to do more Hearthstone crossover.
I do want to be more active in the community, by any means possible.

By the way, I had been keeping two cards in my bag that pretty much represent who I am in the early stages of the game :

(And this time, I didn't mess the stats up.)
 

Matsu

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
I think this is a fundamentally bad idea. And I think that for this exact reason:

You should not confuse equality with fairness. Equality does not necessarily result in fairness, and fairness is not necessarily the result of equality.

First things first: I understand why a new format, which is more based on creativity and individual expression, was chosen over a format that is more based on creativity and execution: to prevent people that are very experienced in a specific medium from winning each year. And I'm fine with that, I truly am. However, to completely abolish skill based competitions is just as, if not more, unfair as/than permanently keeping them.

Every single artist (by which I mean someone who practices an art, be it visual, literary, musical or otherwise) on these forums, and in extension, the planet, is an artist because they choose to be. That is to say they invest time and resources to develop that skill, as opposed to just being born with a talent. Rendering that experience null and void for everyone might seem fair at first, but it has multiple caveats:
  1. Artist rely on that dedication they've put into their field: they are going to make a drawing if drawing is what they are best at, and they are going to write a song if songwriting is what they are best at. If the highest quality work they can produce is by using a certain skill, then they will do so, on the one hand because they feel it's the best way to express themselves and/or their idea, on the other hand because they are expected to (we didn't expect our foremost visual artist to submit anything else than a drawing, did we?). So if execution doesn't matter, experienced artist are at a disadvantage because they are forced to go for a medium that is going to rank low on originality, while how well they do in that medium is moot.
  2. Conversely, it provides an advantage to niche skills, which give you an originality bonus if you happen to be proficient in one. If you would have to choose between favouring niche skills and favouring traditional skills (which more people practice), then the latter would, from a purely mathematical point of view, be more fair. It wouldn't be a 100% fair, but definitely more fair.
  3. Creativity and expression are themselves skills: they can be trained and developed. So in any way you slice it, a contest like this, whether last year's or this year's format, is going to have a component of skill.
Contest, per definition, can't be fair: it's always going to favour some group of people over another. But if you want to make future contests as fair as possible, then you would have to alternate: one year a skill based competition, the other year an expression based one. Which is the suggestion that I will leave you with.

But that's for next time. For now, allow me to congratulate all the winners! I won't pretend not to be disappointed, but nevertheless, it was an honour to have sparred alongside you!
I think my quote has been misinterpreted. When I said that everyone had a chance to win and we will continue that in coming years, I meant to imply that skill/talent/"wow factor" was not and will never be the sole factor in which we judge a contest.
 

Kazzymodus

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
I think my quote has been misinterpreted. When I said that everyone had a chance to win and we will continue that in coming years, I meant to imply that skill/talent/"wow factor" was not and will never be the sole factor in which we judge a contest.
I understand that, but to go as far as to not make it a factor at all is a tad extreme in my opinion.
1st Anniversary Contest said:
We will judge your entries based on Creativity, Presentation, and Representation of the theme by the judges.
2nd Anniversary Shindig said:
We will judge your entries based on Creativity, Originality, and Overall Spirit.
There's definitely a split there. Whether or not you (plural) intend to bring Presentation back as a factor, my personal feedback would be to do so, or at least in the combined version that Loki suggested (which in fact is a very good idea).
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
I understand that, but to go as far as to not make it a factor at all is a tad extreme in my opinion.
We never stopped considering it. I think you are reading "too closely" to the letter of the posts, and not listening to what we are trying to tell you.

Everyone had a chance to win because there were numerous criteria we took into consideration, and so you didn't need a "very well drawn" piece to win. But that doesn't mean that the quality of the piece wouldn't impact our consideration of it, merely that creativity/originality/community spirit would be the primary considerations. All other things being equal, its quite likely that a "better drawn" entry would win. But that isn't enough to win on its own merit, especially given the focus of this contest, and so "high quality" entries that we didn't feel fit the focus of the contest weren't necessarily picked.

So, if there is any lack of clarity, please just take my word for it now so that we can put this misunderstanding behind us.
 
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