Mobile The Path Ahead: Major News Updates for Console & Mobile

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View attachment 130169 I had a small conversation with Mr.Rudi about the state of the Vita version and I thank him for replying. I will still play the game on Vita of course but I have a request for Engine Software..one last final hurrah. If possible add only select features from 1.3. Could we see any of 1.3 make it in? Quality of life changes in-game? Weapons?

1.) Ability to swing weapons while riding minecart rails.

2.) Underworld's 1.3 music...I flippin love it.

3.) add specific weapons from 1.3. maybe 1 from each class.

4.) One exclusive mount and weapon based on Ocram. Have it control like the UFO mount in 1.3 but we're riding on a smaller version of Ocram

5.) Engine Software dragon logo based minions as one last hurrah.

6.) Make S.D.M.G and Red's Wings legitimately obtainable in-game.

7.) PS Vita load up screen/swipeable page thing needs an actual picture. looks bland for now...picture at top of post.

I know you can't fit all of 1.3 in but at least give us something to say farewell.
[doublepost=1469579314,1469579189][/doublepost]I have a hard time believing that there can't be anymore updates for the Vita. Extremely disapointed with this news. Pretty sure I won't be playing it anymore.
 
I have a few questions,
1. What does it mean by "Reset", does it mean you have to start from the beginning or something else, 'cause I don't want to restart.
2. What does it mean by "Old Gen"?
3. Do Xbox 360 consoles get the 1.3 items?
4. WHY ARE THERE. NO MORE UPDATES FOR Xbox 360, PS3, and PSVita AFTER THIS ONE ;(?
5. :eek: 1.3... Moonlord... Staff Armor... :eek: (This is not really a question)
That is all:D. Influx Waver... :eek:
  1. No, it does not mean that at all. It's a reset of the code base on the development side, the goal of which will be to let you continue using the worlds and characters that you have now. It's very important to us that this is how it will work.
  2. PS3/XBox360/PSVita are "old generation" or "last generation" consoles. PS4/XBox One are current generation
  3. No. Did you read the OP of this thread?
  4. See 3.
 
that's nonsense though. Just because 1.3 can't happen on Vita doesn't mean you shouldn't play anymore. I made the requests above knowing full well they might not be able to bring them in for one last show. If this is the last update on Vita then so be it but I will not leave my Vita version behind just because 1.3 isn't a thing on Vita and NO remote play doesn't count.
 
:joy:

Good day, Terrarians!

We cannot help but to be really excited about the ongoing work – and that we are finally able to share it with you! So, without further ado, we are sharing a handful of plans with you today:

kdcROYP.png

OLD GEN CONSOLES
What’s happening with old-gen?
  • Engine Software is currently working on an update that will be focused on clearing out the most impactful bugs that our QA and/or Re-Logic QA have been able to uncover - along with keeping close track with anything that the Community has raised. This will encompass over 100 fixes in total. If you have any major items in particular that you would like to inquire about, please let us know.
  • This update will unfortunately be the final update for PS3, XB360, and PS Vita
  • Targeted release timeframe is September 2016
  • The great news is that you can continue to play these versions of Terraria (both online and offline) as a fully functioning – and still incredibly fun – game.
    • No further updates will be coming for old gen
    • Current-Gen consoles (XB1, PS4) will continue to receive updates (more on that below)
    • Future updates to current-gen platforms will unfortunatelty make cross-play with old-gen platforms impossible
divider.png

Why are we no longer providing updates for old-gen?


  • Simply put, these consoles are 12 years old at this point, and we are running into hardware requirement issues (as some of you saw with Vita): as Terraria has grown over the years, its hardware demands have as well – with 1.3 being a sizeable jumping-off point. This also means that we would likely have to substantially "hold back" current gen possibilities in order to make things work with the "lowest common denominator."
  • So, that being the case and in order to continue to give all users the best Terraria experience, we needed to draw a line here that allows old gen players to have a stable and authentic game experience – even if that means being stopped at 1.2.4 tier content – while also enabling current gen consoles to fully leverage their more current hardware.
  • We explored a few possible approaches to make 1.3 work, but – to be frank – none of them were really acceptable. They required too much in the way of compromising the Terraria console gameplay experience and still left some lingering stability concerns, all while drawing in a rather large amount of resources to make it work at all – resources that we ultimately feel would be better used to push Terraria forward further and faster.
divider.png

How are we making the transition easier for our users?

  • You will be able to upload your worlds from old-gen platforms and transfer them to current-gen – we have been focusing heavily on cross-saves over the past few months and will continue to do so in order to be 100% certain that this is functional for everyone.
  • We are working with Sony and Microsoft to help make the transition as smooth as possible for current owners – keep an eye out for some exciting promotions!
kdcROYP.png

CHANGING OF THE GUARD

As this is a major milestone in the journey of Terraria on Console and Mobile, we took a step back and evaluated everything that we had currently going on as well as available resources. To that end, we are making a shift in the development teams moving forward. We thank Engine and Codeglue for all of their contributions to bringing Terraria to a wider community but we’ve made the decision to bring all development in-house under one roof with Pipeworks. So say a big thank you to them both, and a give a warm welcome to Pipeworks!


Engine will remain on board until the final Old Gen Console Update is complete, while CodeGlue will remain on board until sometime in Q3, as they continue their work on stabilizing the mobile codebase. CodeGlue will also remain on board for any future 3DS updates.

divider.png

Meeting Pipeworks: Our new Console and Mobile Development Team

That said, let’s meet the new team shall we? Taking over the mantle of Terraria development on Console and Mobile will be Pipeworks Studio out of Eugene, Oregon! Here is a bit about Pipeworks and why they were such a good fit for this project:

  • They are a part of the Digital Bros. group (of which 505 Games is as well) – so this is an opportunity to bring Terraria “in house”
  • Since the reforms in QA, our current Console (and future Mobile) QA team is located at Pipeworks as well – this means that the QA team and the dev team will sit side-by-side, and that makes for some massive gains in efficiency of finding and squashing issues!
  • The team dedicated to Terraria at Pipeworks are MASSIVE Terraria fans. Each of the team members are well-versed veterans of the franchise on PC and beyond – logging hundreds of hours of play over time. They are also immensely passionate about this project and making this amazing.
So, everyone, please share your warmest greetings to our new team at Pipeworks! We have certainly encouraged them to dive right in to the community – and we hope to have some events in the very near future that will allow the community and the dev team to interact more closely. Stay tuned there!


kdcROYP.png

CURRENT GEN CONSOLES

Continuing with our theme of this being a key milestone and thus a chance for a fresh start, Pipeworks is hard at work on two huge undertakings:

Console Reset
  • PW is currently rebuilding the entire Console Terraria experience from the ground up.
  • The foundation/standard being utilized is the current Terraria PC codebase, which should ultimately mean:
    • Integration of the PC Controller support style
    • A more seamless/authentic experience - when you play one version or the other, they should feel quite similar if not exactly the same!
    • Shortened update “gaps” and a cleaner, more stable experience
    • And more!
  • There are other potential benefits to this Reset that the team is actively exploring and discussing, but we will save those for sharing when we know more/are more certain if/when any of that will be possible.
divider.png

Terraria 1.3 on Current Gen Consoles!!!
  • Our next update for current gen is the long-awaited MASSIVE Terraria 1.3 update - which includes a ton of new content. When it arrives, it will include both the reset discussed above AND be current up to at least PC 1.3 standard. For those of you whom are for some reason unaware of what all 1.3 brings to the table, here is just a small sampling:
    • Endgame Celestial Invasion Event & Moonlord final boss encounter
    • Brutally difficult Expert Mode – where fortune and glory - and unique loot - await those brave enough.
    • Over 800 new items, bringing the total count to well over 3500!
    • Numerous player quality of life upgrades
    • Original Changelog for PC is located here: http://forums.terraria.org/index.php?threads/1-3-changelog.20617/

We know that everyone has been dying for this content to arrive on Console for some time, and we are beyond thrilled to finally announce that it is well underway.

The timing of these two projects will overlap – meaning that Current Gen Console players will get both the Reset AND Terraria 1.3 at the same time! Of course, that leads to the obvious question: When?

Our current target delivery for the Reset+1.3 is Q2 2017. All of this will be absolutely free to existing Current Gen Console Terraria owners (Old Gen players will have to purchase a Current Gen copy).


We – and Pipeworks – plan to share progress and spoilers along the way. We are even looking into more interactive ways to allow you all to share in the journey with us. So, stay tuned and look forward to that! In the meantime, let’s whet your appetite with a quick screen of the current actively-running build of Console Terraria:



kdcROYP.png

MOBILE

So, that just leaves our good friends the Mobile Terrarians. What do we have in store for you guys?

As you saw above, we are changing our Mobile development team over to Pipeworks as well. As with Console, Pipeworks is working to redesign and rebuild the Terraria Mobile experience. This eventual Mobile Reset will include Terraria 1.3 as well!


In parallel, CodeGlue will continue their efforts to stabilize the existing Terraria mobile game. This will be critically important even with the Mobile Reset, because there will likely be older devices (less RAM, etc) that cannot run Mobile 1.3, and we want to leave players with those older devices with as stable and solid a Terraria experience as we can.

Key things to know:
  • Timing is planned to be “around the time of” the Console Reset – but likely will come after it by at least a few months. As we know more, we will share it.
  • As with Console, we will share our plans and progress and journey with you!
  • We are aware of other features desired by the community (online multiplayer, UI redesign, rebalancing, etc), and those will absolutely be discussed in our planning. As we know more there, we will fill you in – hopefully, we can cover off at least some of these in the reset!
  • As always, the updates (and the reset) will be free to current owners of Terraria on Mobile.
kdcROYP.png

Whew, well that’s all we have for today – it was a lot to write and probably even more for you guys to take in. We are beyond thrilled to be able to share all of this with you and equally excited for what this means for the future of the franchise is a massive understatement. We truly feel that we have found a way here to spend the time and money needed to accomplish our – and Re-Logic’s – goal of providing the best Terraria experience possible to as many people as possible. This is something that we look forward to continue providing to you all for years to come.


Here’s to the journey ahead!



So the old gen consoles wont get more updates? Please keep old gen in ur head and if u make 1.4 plz find a way to add it. THANKS FOR THE UPADATE AND KEEP IT UP!!!
 
  • This update will unfortunately be the final update for PS3, XB360, and PS Vita
  • Targeted release timeframe is September 2016
  • The great news is that you can continue to play these versions of Terraria (both online and offline) as a fully functioning – and still incredibly fun – game.
    • No further updates will be coming for old gen
    • Current-Gen consoles (XB1, PS4) will continue to receive updates (more on that below)
    • Future updates to current-gen platforms will unfortunatelty make cross-play with old-gen platforms impossible
divider.png


Why are we no longer providing updates for old-gen?

  • Simply put, these consoles are 12 years old at this point, and we are running into hardware requirement issues (as some of you saw with Vita): as Terraria has grown over the years, its hardware demands have as well – with 1.3 being a sizeable jumping-off point. This also means that we would likely have to substantially "hold back" current gen possibilities in order to make things work with the "lowest common denominator."
  • So, that being the case and in order to continue to give all users the best Terraria experience, we needed to draw a line here that allows old gen players to have a stable and authentic game experience – even if that means being stopped at 1.2.4 tier content – while also enabling current gen consoles to fully leverage their more current hardware.
  • We explored a few possible approaches to make 1.3 work, but – to be frank – none of them were really acceptable. They required too much in the way of compromising the Terraria console gameplay experience and still left some lingering stability concerns, all while drawing in a rather large amount of resources to make it work at all – resources that we ultimately feel would be better used to push Terraria forward further and faster.

Eff this poop I'm out. Seriously? I'm not going to get an Xbox one etc anytime soon! Us old gen consoles are basically left out of the EXCITING 1.3? Well at least I have mobile, unless my kindle fire HD is too old of a model which I hope not, because that would suck butt! I have pc version at least but meh.
 
My iPad 4 is barely newer than the Vita. Mobile keeps getting updates. Again, have a hard time believing the vita couldn't handle new content. Probably just don't want to work on last gen anymore. I'd be happy to pay for the extra content, but oh well.
 
That might be true, but there are even times when I'm playing on New 3DS and notice considerable frame rate drops. It would probably be advantageous to lock the game to a stable 30FPS. I think the extra RAM could then be better utilized for something extra, perhaps a CORE feature like world size or online multiplayer that should have been there from the beginning.

But from what I can tell, you're saying it's not the RAM that dictates the size of the worlds, but the power of the hardware. In which case I could argue, why aren't you taking advantage of the New 3DS' quad core CPU, that's twice as good as the old one, right?

I believe that more could be done to improve upon this version, specifically by utilizing the New 3DS.

Nobody is arguing there aren't ways to make the game better, what I am arguing is that the game isn't taking advantage of the additional functions of the New 3DS. I have a fairly extensive knowledge of the 3DS hardware, as It's somewhat of a hobby of mine, of which the details I'm not allowed to discuss on this forum at leisure as it's against the forum rules to discuss console modding.

It's not "just power" or "just memory" that contributes to weather or not the n3DS could have larger worlds or not. It's both of those factors and other various moral qualms with doing so.

I'm sure if they really wanted to, they could make slightly larger worlds on the n3DS without sacrificing that stable 60fps we have most of the time. But that'd make save files larger, it'd require more attention to resource management if they wanted to maintain the 60 frames per second we're all accustomed to with the game, and the simple fact remains that the standard 3DS and 2DS are far more popular and widespread than the New 3DS is, so you'd be developing for a more limited demographic when you could be spending time improving other parts of the game that benefit everyone. And you'd also alienate potential o3DS consumers.

Either way, it doesn't take away from my previous points. Why bother releasing the game for 3DS if it's clearly not able to run the game the way it was intended to be ran?

Easy, there's a demographic of people that wanted to play Terraria on the 3DS. So they did the very best they could to put as much of the Terraria experience on the 3DS as they could, cutting corners anywhere they had to to make it happen. The fact that the game could run better on the n3DS is more or less a bonus. People payed for a more expensive, better version of the console and these developers were happy to make the game use the additional power in a way that doesn't make the o3DS version of the game look like a horrible mess in comparison. Being fair to the o3DS owners is important, because, as I stated above, the o3DS and 2DS are a lot more popular.

The additional buttons are great, granted - although, I am of the mindset that they should allow us to decide what the extra buttons are used for. There should be a control mapping option.

Yeah, being able to customize all the controls would be good, they should definitely do that.
 
What is it about 1.3 that makes it unplayable on last gen? New mechanics? Why not just add the weapons/tiles/NPCs, and skip the new machanics?
 

Good day, Terrarians!

We cannot help but to be really excited about the ongoing work – and that we are finally able to share it with you! So, without further ado, we are sharing a handful of plans with you today:

kdcROYP.png

OLD GEN CONSOLES
What’s happening with old-gen?
  • Engine Software is currently working on an update that will be focused on clearing out the most impactful bugs that our QA and/or Re-Logic QA have been able to uncover - along with keeping close track with anything that the Community has raised. This will encompass over 100 fixes in total. If you have any major items in particular that you would like to inquire about, please let us know.
  • This update will unfortunately be the final update for PS3, XB360, and PS Vita
  • Targeted release timeframe is September 2016
  • The great news is that you can continue to play these versions of Terraria (both online and offline) as a fully functioning – and still incredibly fun – game.
    • No further updates will be coming for old gen
    • Current-Gen consoles (XB1, PS4) will continue to receive updates (more on that below)
    • Future updates to current-gen platforms will unfortunatelty make cross-play with old-gen platforms impossible
divider.png

Why are we no longer providing updates for old-gen?


  • Simply put, these consoles are 12 years old at this point, and we are running into hardware requirement issues (as some of you saw with Vita): as Terraria has grown over the years, its hardware demands have as well – with 1.3 being a sizeable jumping-off point. This also means that we would likely have to substantially "hold back" current gen possibilities in order to make things work with the "lowest common denominator."
  • So, that being the case and in order to continue to give all users the best Terraria experience, we needed to draw a line here that allows old gen players to have a stable and authentic game experience – even if that means being stopped at 1.2.4 tier content – while also enabling current gen consoles to fully leverage their more current hardware.
  • We explored a few possible approaches to make 1.3 work, but – to be frank – none of them were really acceptable. They required too much in the way of compromising the Terraria console gameplay experience and still left some lingering stability concerns, all while drawing in a rather large amount of resources to make it work at all – resources that we ultimately feel would be better used to push Terraria forward further and faster.
divider.png

How are we making the transition easier for our users?

  • You will be able to upload your worlds from old-gen platforms and transfer them to current-gen – we have been focusing heavily on cross-saves over the past few months and will continue to do so in order to be 100% certain that this is functional for everyone.
  • We are working with Sony and Microsoft to help make the transition as smooth as possible for current owners – keep an eye out for some exciting promotions!
kdcROYP.png

CHANGING OF THE GUARD

As this is a major milestone in the journey of Terraria on Console and Mobile, we took a step back and evaluated everything that we had currently going on as well as available resources. To that end, we are making a shift in the development teams moving forward. We thank Engine and Codeglue for all of their contributions to bringing Terraria to a wider community but we’ve made the decision to bring all development in-house under one roof with Pipeworks. So say a big thank you to them both, and a give a warm welcome to Pipeworks!


Engine will remain on board until the final Old Gen Console Update is complete, while CodeGlue will remain on board until sometime in Q3, as they continue their work on stabilizing the mobile codebase. CodeGlue will also remain on board for any future 3DS updates.

divider.png

Meeting Pipeworks: Our new Console and Mobile Development Team

That said, let’s meet the new team shall we? Taking over the mantle of Terraria development on Console and Mobile will be Pipeworks Studio out of Eugene, Oregon! Here is a bit about Pipeworks and why they were such a good fit for this project:

  • They are a part of the Digital Bros. group (of which 505 Games is as well) – so this is an opportunity to bring Terraria “in house”
  • Since the reforms in QA, our current Console (and future Mobile) QA team is located at Pipeworks as well – this means that the QA team and the dev team will sit side-by-side, and that makes for some massive gains in efficiency of finding and squashing issues!
  • The team dedicated to Terraria at Pipeworks are MASSIVE Terraria fans. Each of the team members are well-versed veterans of the franchise on PC and beyond – logging hundreds of hours of play over time. They are also immensely passionate about this project and making this amazing.
So, everyone, please share your warmest greetings to our new team at Pipeworks! We have certainly encouraged them to dive right in to the community – and we hope to have some events in the very near future that will allow the community and the dev team to interact more closely. Stay tuned there!


kdcROYP.png

CURRENT GEN CONSOLES

Continuing with our theme of this being a key milestone and thus a chance for a fresh start, Pipeworks is hard at work on two huge undertakings:

Console Reset
  • PW is currently rebuilding the entire Console Terraria experience from the ground up.
  • The foundation/standard being utilized is the current Terraria PC codebase, which should ultimately mean:
    • Integration of the PC Controller support style
    • A more seamless/authentic experience - when you play one version or the other, they should feel quite similar if not exactly the same!
    • Shortened update “gaps” and a cleaner, more stable experience
    • And more!
  • There are other potential benefits to this Reset that the team is actively exploring and discussing, but we will save those for sharing when we know more/are more certain if/when any of that will be possible.
divider.png

Terraria 1.3 on Current Gen Consoles!!!
  • Our next update for current gen is the long-awaited MASSIVE Terraria 1.3 update - which includes a ton of new content. When it arrives, it will include both the reset discussed above AND be current up to at least PC 1.3 standard. For those of you whom are for some reason unaware of what all 1.3 brings to the table, here is just a small sampling:
    • Endgame Celestial Invasion Event & Moonlord final boss encounter
    • Brutally difficult Expert Mode – where fortune and glory - and unique loot - await those brave enough.
    • Over 800 new items, bringing the total count to well over 3500!
    • Numerous player quality of life upgrades
    • Original Changelog for PC is located here: http://forums.terraria.org/index.php?threads/1-3-changelog.20617/

We know that everyone has been dying for this content to arrive on Console for some time, and we are beyond thrilled to finally announce that it is well underway.

The timing of these two projects will overlap – meaning that Current Gen Console players will get both the Reset AND Terraria 1.3 at the same time! Of course, that leads to the obvious question: When?

Our current target delivery for the Reset+1.3 is Q2 2017. All of this will be absolutely free to existing Current Gen Console Terraria owners (Old Gen players will have to purchase a Current Gen copy).


We – and Pipeworks – plan to share progress and spoilers along the way. We are even looking into more interactive ways to allow you all to share in the journey with us. So, stay tuned and look forward to that! In the meantime, let’s whet your appetite with a quick screen of the current actively-running build of Console Terraria:



kdcROYP.png

MOBILE

So, that just leaves our good friends the Mobile Terrarians. What do we have in store for you guys?

As you saw above, we are changing our Mobile development team over to Pipeworks as well. As with Console, Pipeworks is working to redesign and rebuild the Terraria Mobile experience. This eventual Mobile Reset will include Terraria 1.3 as well!


In parallel, CodeGlue will continue their efforts to stabilize the existing Terraria mobile game. This will be critically important even with the Mobile Reset, because there will likely be older devices (less RAM, etc) that cannot run Mobile 1.3, and we want to leave players with those older devices with as stable and solid a Terraria experience as we can.

Key things to know:
  • Timing is planned to be “around the time of” the Console Reset – but likely will come after it by at least a few months. As we know more, we will share it.
  • As with Console, we will share our plans and progress and journey with you!
  • We are aware of other features desired by the community (online multiplayer, UI redesign, rebalancing, etc), and those will absolutely be discussed in our planning. As we know more there, we will fill you in – hopefully, we can cover off at least some of these in the reset!
  • As always, the updates (and the reset) will be free to current owners of Terraria on Mobile.
kdcROYP.png

Whew, well that’s all we have for today – it was a lot to write and probably even more for you guys to take in. We are beyond thrilled to be able to share all of this with you and equally excited for what this means for the future of the franchise is a massive understatement. We truly feel that we have found a way here to spend the time and money needed to accomplish our – and Re-Logic’s – goal of providing the best Terraria experience possible to as many people as possible. This is something that we look forward to continue providing to you all for years to come.


Here’s to the journey ahead!
I'm not happy for the update because I'm on xbox 360 and my family is sorta poor so we can't afford another xbox. Reply if someone has a heart of gold that'll give me an xbox one. Jk lol if anyone did I wouldvery been shocked. But still disappointed for the no old gen update
[doublepost=1469581034,1469580956][/doublepost]I'm upset because my family can't afford an xbox one and I have a 360. Screw you relogic
 
I'm not happy for the update because I'm on xbox 360 and my family is sorta poor so we can't afford another xbox. Reply if someone has a heart of gold that'll give me an xbox one. Jk lol if anyone did I wouldvery been shocked. But still disappointed for the no old gen update
[doublepost=1469581034,1469580956][/doublepost]I'm upset because my family can't afford an xbox one and I have a 360. Screw you relogic
You mistake "can not" with "will not". First off it is 505 that decided it and second off there's a good reason for it. They made the decision to leave you with a stable 1.2.4 rather than give 1.3 that wouldn't really function as intended.
 
Oh cmon stop with the ps3 and xbox butthurt those crappy consoles sucked back when they got released and nowadays cant run a 2d game hahah buy an android phone like me and play 1.3
 
I'm not happy for the update because I'm on xbox 360 and my family is sorta poor so we can't afford another xbox. Reply if someone has a heart of gold that'll give me an xbox one. Jk lol if anyone did I wouldvery been shocked. But still disappointed for the no old gen update
[doublepost=1469581034,1469580956][/doublepost]I'm upset because my family can't afford an xbox one and I have a 360. Screw you relogic
Well, It's not like anyone is taking away your 360 version of the game, in fact all this means for you is that your version of the game will get some last minute attention, bug fixes and small improvements before it's inevitable end of development. The 360 is over a decade old. If you wanted something that'd last you should've went with a powerful computer instead of an Xbox.
 
You mistake "can not" with "will not". First off it is 505 that decided it and second off there's a good reason for it. They made the decision to leave you with a stable 1.2.4 rather than give 1.3 that wouldn't really function as intended.
I'm just saying if they put a little more effort into it and a little more time they could please leave xbox 360 off at 1.3 many 360 users have been waiting for 1.3 for YEARS
 
Old 3DS and new 3DS are the same system. Xbox 360 and Xbox One are not. They aren't comparable situations.

This is true, The new 3DS is the same 3DS with a built in amiibo scanner. The Xbox one is a whole new console with "better" features, functions, content, and mechanics.
 
I'm just saying if they put a little more effort into it and a little more time they could please leave xbox 360 off at 1.3 many 360 users have been waiting for 1.3 for YEARS
Well, let this be a lesson to you. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Especially if that basket has a history of getting so hot it melts itself and flashes red colors on the power LED.
 
I honestly don't know how to take the news. I feel like maybe it would be different if content for Terraria was carefully considered (not adding more content for the sake of more content) or the game ran differently or something, but at this point it seems like a lost/controversial cause.
 
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