Game Mechanics The Problem With NPC Happiness

[FibS]

That's not the same thing since you can buy the wings and then move him anywhere else and keep the wings. Pylons do not work if you move the NPCs away. They need 2 NPCs nearby to function, and that is a limit on creative freedom.

You're contradicting yourself.

You're preaching about creative freedom, yet your argument relies on the idea that you won't be building anything except a single 25-room nightmare right at spawn.

I'd rather just cut out the limitations completely and just let us build how we want without worry of penalty or bonus. Your idea would only slightly be better than the current system, but slightly more freedom is not full freedom. It should be the player's choice on how they build, not have all these arbitrary rules that limit freedom and creativity.

There aren't any limitations on your builds at all.

You're whining about a system that is relevant only to efficiently progressing through Terraria as a game. It has nothing whatsoever to do with your build aesthetic, not any more than "being forced to fight Mechanical Bosses" or whatever other nonsense. Stop fishing for things to complain about.

 

[Flubman]

What.. of course if you ignore a feature, it's as if it doesn't exist..? But they're there, encouraging the player to build a specific way. Point is, the game rewards you for one way of building. It locks a VERY convenient quality of life item behind one way of building. So to those who build these fantastic castle villages, they miss out for no good reason. Why are we rewarded for building our NPCs far apart? There is no reason to do this.




But you are suggesting some blocks that'll be better than others, even if you can create a totally fitting themed build that technically doesn't use the biome's belonging blocks. It encourages one set of blocks when the game shouldn't put any unnecessary influence on the player. If you encourage one way of building, you discourage other ways of building, and that's harmful for a sandbox game like Terraria.

There's a difference between positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is when someone is rewarded for doing what someone else wants (like the player being rewarded with discounts and pylons). Negative reinforcement is when someone is punished until they do what someone else wants (like the player being punished with increased prices). The former is fine because it doesn't actively hurt you if you don't cooperate (Despite what you say, playing without pylons is no different from playing earlier versions of Terraria, which a lot of older players are willing to accept), but the latter is bad because because it constantly hurts you if you don't cooperate. This is why negative reinforcement is almost always annoying; you can't ignore it without being punished.

 

[Snickerbobble]

You're contradicting yourself.

You're preaching about creative freedom, yet your argument relies on the idea that you won't be building anything except a single 25-room nightmare right at spawn.

Um, I'm not? I'm arguing a player should be able to build whatever they want. When did I say I won't build anything except a big NPC hotel?

There aren't any limitations on your builds at all

.

You're whining about a system that is relevant only to efficiently progressing through Terraria as a game. It has nothing whatsoever to do with your build aesthetic, not any more than "being forced to fight Mechanical Bosses" or whatever other nonsense. Stop fishing for things to complain about.

I'm criticizing a system that rewards one way of building. Do you not know how awesome and convenient pylons are? This is not fishing for complaints, this is a legitimate concern. If I want to build my prefered style, I miss out on an awesome feature. Why are they locked behind one way of building? ..Could you please answer this?

There's a difference between positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is when someone is rewarded for doing what someone else wants (like the player being rewarded with discounts and pylons). Negative reinforcement is when someone is punished until they do what someone else wants (like the player being punished with increased prices). The former is fine because it doesn't actively hurt you if you don't cooperate (Despite what you say, playing without pylons is no different from playing earlier versions of Terraria, which a lot of older players are willing to accept), but the latter is bad because because it constantly hurts you if you don't cooperate. This is why negative reinforcement is almost always annoying; you can't ignore it without being punished.

Again like I asked above, do you know how awesome and convenient pylons are? You can play without them, but they GREATLY reduce travel time, which means when using them, I'll have more time to do other more enjoyable things. Locking amazing content behind one build preference is kind of lousy.

There is also the punishment of higher NPC prices. If my steampunker's not in the right spot, my 5 platinum purchase will instead be 7.5 platinum. Not only do I miss out on pylons which reduces travel time, giving me more time to do other things, but I also need to spend more time grinding mobs and bosses in order to purchase things. With the punishment, you lose out double. You spend more time traveling, and you spend more time grinding. That's not something to easily ignore. Traveling's the same prior to 1.4, but I don't think that's a fair argument to "just ignore this very convenient new feature" due to poor implementation.

 

[Heroman3003]

If you don't participate in a mechanic, you don't get its rewards. If you don't like fishing, you don't get any crates, any quest rewards or any fish-requiring potions. If you don't like fighting a specific skippable boss, you don't get its loot. And if you don't want to bother with NPC happiness, you don't get pylons. That is how every game mechanic works, the entire point of mechanic is to reward doing a thing that player would have no reason doing otherwise. And you can still build bigass towns. Just keep your NPCs living elsewhere.

 

[PixelPatcher]

I'd rather just cut out the limitations completely and just let us build how we want without worry of penalty or bonus.

If you want to build whatever you want without limit or bonus, I'd go play Minecraft or Journey Mode at the very least. That is not the spirit of this game. Terraria's core gameplay lies in the limitations it provides and your goal as the player is to prosper under those limitations. Terraria is such a good sandbox game precisely because it bends the rules of the genre. In my opinion, pure sandbox games aren't games any more than GIMP or Blender are. Games require limitations.

 

[FibS]

Um, I'm not? I'm arguing a player should be able to build whatever they want. When did I say I won't build anything except a big NPC hotel?

It was heavily implied by the fact that you have no other possible reason to complain about the Pylon system because in all other circumstances it has zero downsides.

Any two builds that have at least any two NPCs (which have, you know, been the enforced central core of all builds along w/ crafting furniture since the game first released) can use Pylons. You only need to put two or three NPCs in a certain position for about fifteen seconds to get a pylon, and can then tell the entire Happiness system to F off so far as Pylons are concerned.

This is less inconvenient than getting a grapple hook, an item that is actually vital to making complex builds.

And it imposes

no

limitations

at

all

 

[Talerax]

Even if I hate this price increased system, I agree that rewarding system in general doesn't impose limitation. Do you find yourself drinking every possible potions all the time? You might lose huge bonus from not doing so, you know?

 

[Snickerbobble]

If you don't participate in a mechanic, you don't get its rewards. If you don't like fishing, you don't get any crates, any quest rewards or any fish-requiring potions. If you don't like fighting a specific skippable boss, you don't get its loot. And if you don't want to bother with NPC happiness, you don't get pylons. That is how every game mechanic works, the entire point of mechanic is to reward doing a thing that player would have no reason doing otherwise. And you can still build bigass towns. Just keep your NPCs living elsewhere.

But why is it encouraged to spread out your NPCs? I've asked this on several threads and no one has answered anything beyond what sums up as a "Just because" answer...

Everything else you just compared to doesn't put a limitation on your creativity with builds. These are not fair analogies.

If you want to build whatever you want without limit or bonus, I'd go play Minecraft or Journey Mode at the very least. That is not the spirit of this game. Terraria's core gameplay lies in the limitations it provides and your goal as the player is to prosper under those limitations. Terraria is such a good sandbox game precisely because it bends the rules of the genre. In my opinion, pure sandbox games aren't games any more than GIMP or Blender are. Games require limitations.

The game since launch has advertised itself as "The world is your canvas" and for NINE years. I don't understand your dismissal of this restriction, is it game-breaking if the game allowed pylons without certain NPC set-ups and without price penalties? This restriction does not better the game- the idea of pylons do, but the implementation only harms the game.

It's like as if you could only use chests depending on how your NPCs are set up, and arguing "If you don't set your NPCs up like this, you don't get the reward of using chests." Or say, as chests used to contain half the slots they do now, if NPC set up determined if your chests could be bigger or not. It's just a weird, arbitrary limitation that encourages something for.. no reason. Just because? That's not a reason.

It was heavily implied by the fact that you have no other possible reason to complain about the Pylon system because in all other circumstances it has zero downsides.

Any two builds that have at least any two NPCs (which have, you know, been the central core of your builds other than crafting furniture since the game first released) can use Pylons. You only need to put two or three NPCs in a certain position for about fifteen seconds to get a pylon, and can then tell the entire Happiness system to F off so far as Pylons are concerned.

This is less inconvenient than getting a grapple hook, an item that is actually vital to making complex builds.

And it imposes

no

limitations

at

all

Maybe read this thread and try to cool the hostile attitude. PC - Why I think NPC Unhappiness and how Pylons are locked are a HUGE mistake

Even if I hate this price increased system, I agree that rewarding system in general doesn't impose limitation. Do you find yourself drinking every possible potions all the time? You might lose huge bonus from not doing so, you know?

Creative freedom is separate from setting up to fight a boss or tackle a new challenge. This game generally rewards you for completing challenges- spreading NPCs out among the world is not a challenge and is only there to limit how you wish to build.

 

[FibS]

But why is it encouraged to spread out your NPCs?

I have to wonder what game you've been playing for the last nine years if you are this completely out of touch with the fundamental nature of Terraria.

Maybe read this thread and try to cool the hostile attitude.

You must be intentionally playing dumb to provoke us.

 

[Flubman]

If you want to build whatever you want without limit or bonus, I'd go play Minecraft or Journey Mode at the very least. That is not the spirit of this game. Terraria's core gameplay lies in the limitations it provides and your goal as the player is to prosper under those limitations. Terraria is such a good sandbox game precisely because it bends the rules of the genre. In my opinion, pure sandbox games aren't games any more than GIMP or Blender are. Games require limitations.

There's a grain of truth to what you're saying: Constraint in the form of rules often fosters creativity. But Terraria building has always been sufficiently constrained in order to foster creativity. There's nothing build-wise that can be done with happiness that couldn't be done without it. All the happiness-based price increases do is punish certain kinds of creativity.

 

[Snickerbobble]

There's a grain of truth to what you're saying: Constraint in the form of rules often fosters creativity. But Terraria building has always been sufficiently constrained in order to foster creativity. There's nothing build-wise that can be done with happiness that couldn't be done without it. All the happiness-based price increases do is punish certain kinds of creativity.

If they could do away with price penalties, I'd be a little happy.

If they made pylons craftable (or obtainable) by other means and usable without needing 2 NPCs.. I'd be incredibly delighted. Magic mirror seems like a fine candidate for pylon crafting, and mirrors could drop from Hallow crates in Hardmode since they need some unique drops anyway.

 

[darthmorf]

I have to wonder what game you've been playing for the last nine years if you are this completely out of touch with the fundamental nature of Terraria.


You must be intentionally playing dumb to provoke us.

But why is it encouraged to spread out your NPCs? I've asked this on several threads and no one has answered anything beyond what sums up as a "Just because" answer...

Everything else you just compared to doesn't put a limitation on your creativity with builds. These are not fair analogies.


The game since launch has advertised itself as "The world is your canvas" and for NINE years. I don't understand your dismissal of this restriction, is it game-breaking if the game allowed pylons without certain NPC set-ups and without price penalties? This restriction does not better the game- the idea of pylons do, but the implementation only harms the game.

It's like as if you could only use chests depending on how your NPCs are set up, and arguing "If you don't set your NPCs up like this, you don't get the reward of using chests." Or say, as chests used to contain half the slots they do now, if NPC set up determined if your chests could be bigger or not. It's just a weird, arbitrary limitation that encourages something for.. no reason. Just because? That's not a reason.




Maybe read this thread and try to cool the hostile attitude. PC - Why I think NPC Unhappiness and how Pylons are locked are a HUGE mistake



Creative freedom is separate from setting up to fight a boss or tackle a new challenge. This game generally rewards you for completing challenges- spreading NPCs out among the world is not a challenge and is only there to limit how you wish to build.

Perhaps time to take a break from this discussion to cool off - you both disagree with each other but don't seem to be getting anywhere.
It's OK to agree to disagree. Not everyone has the same uniform opinions.

 

[Talerax]

Creative freedom is separate from setting up to fight a boss or tackle a new challenge. This game generally rewards you for completing challenges- spreading NPCs out among the world is not a challenge and is only there to limit how you wish to build.

Okay, so how about some building perspective. Maybe I have choices between crafting a wooden door, or using wires and actuators in place of door. Now actuator door can't be open by blood moon enemies. That's the advantage of building way over another. Pylon is just the advantage of spreading NPCs out.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

I see this as a bad thing honestly, as it discourages the player to build how they want to. I've seen some amazing villages and castle towns. Pylons are a great addition, but their implementation harms the creative freedom of the game.

I disagree with that. Many tools in the game require resources. Minecarts require minecart tracks. Teleporters require wires. And Pylons require NPCs. It's all about what cost you want to pay. Tracks require lots of crafting and possibly digging through rock. Teleporters require Hardmode and lots of wire purchasing. And Pylons require NPCs that you're willing to not have in your base.

Do not confuse Pylons with happiness; they're not the same mechanic.

But they're there, encouraging the player to build a specific way. Point is, the game rewards you for one way of building.

The game does that all the time. It rewards you for building boxes with background walls, a light source, a comfort item and a hard-surface item by allowing an NPC to move in there. That's "one way of building" for which you are "rewarded". Yes, the game is not too particular about the specifics of course, but my point is that the game very much does reward you for building in a certain way.

The difference is that you're just used to it.

 

[PixelPatcher]

The game since launch has advertised itself as "The world is your canvas" and for NINE years. I don't understand your dismissal of this restriction, is it game-breaking if the game allowed pylons without certain NPC set-ups and without price penalties? This restriction does not better the game- the idea of pylons do, but the implementation only harms the game.

It's like as if you could only use chests depending on how your NPCs are set up, and arguing "If you don't set your NPCs up like this, you don't get the reward of using chests." Or say, as chests used to contain half the slots they do now, if NPC set up determined if your chests could be bigger or not. It's just a weird, arbitrary limitation that encourages something for.. no reason. Just because? That's not a reason.

1. I never said Terraria wasn't a sandbox game, (I said exactly the opposite) I said it isn't a perfect sandbox game. There are some things in Terraria that you just can't do. (e.g. build a town in the corruption.) Saying "the world is your canvas" to justify removing sensible limitations from the game makes no sense.

2. It makes sense that pylons should be limited behind NPCs because they are fictional and were advertised as being limited behind NPCs. Neither of these are true for chests, so there isn't a meaningful correlation between the two. Everything was just fine before pylons were even added to the game, so why is it an issue that you want them to behave differently? Just don't use them.
Also, there are teleporters in this game, why can't you use those?

All the happiness-based price increases do is punish certain kinds of creativity.

Yes, it does punish certain kind of creativity, as does every aspect of every game. Video games are not the best medium for expressing pure, unlimited, unpunished creativity. One could make the argument that there aren't enough different blocks in Terraria, or it needs more paint colors, or smaller blocks so more detail can be added, and maybe the world should be bigger so you can fit larger builds. Just because something punishes some types of creativity doesn't mean it has a negative impact on the game.

 

[Flubman]

Yes, it does punish certain kind of creativity, as does every aspect of every game. Video games are not the best medium for expressing pure, unlimited, unpunished creativity. One could make the argument that there aren't enough different blocks in Terraria, or it needs more paint colors, or smaller blocks so more detail can be added, and maybe the world should be bigger so you can fit larger builds. Just because something punishes some types of creativity doesn't mean it has a negative impact on the game.

But every theoretical feature you mentioned would require A LOT more work than simply removing happiness-based price increases. Also, this is something builders never had to deal with before. How does punishing certain kinds of creativity (kinds of creativity that were not punished before) not have a negative impact on the game?

 

[Snickerbobble]

Perhaps time to take a break from this discussion to cool off - you both disagree with each other but don't seem to be getting anywhere.
It's OK to agree to disagree. Not everyone has the same uniform opinions.

Yep, way ahead of you there. Once the insults drop, the argument is over in my book.

Okay, so how about some building perspective. Maybe I have choices between crafting a wooden door, or using wires and actuators in place of door. Now actuator door can't be open by blood moon enemies. That's the advantage of building way over another. Pylon is just the advantage of spreading NPCs out.

Of course, the game also advertises itself to defend your base (which strangely, by promoting NPC distancing, gives you less reason to defend now). Though over time, the game has lightened these limitations- for example, when they gave NPCs the ability to defend themselves. They can still die, but they no longer are defenseless if even a green slime makes it in. They can even handle some early hardmode enemies, which I think is a great addition. Another change, one in 1.4 actually, is that wyverns are less likely to spawn if you're in front of a background wall. Another great addition, as now it's far less punishing to build in the sky. These changes have lifted or lightened limitations, but NPC happiness imposes a limit, along with Pylon unlocks and continuous use of them.

I disagree with that. Many tools in the game require resources. Minecarts require minecart tracks. Teleporters require wires. And Pylons require NPCs. It's all about what cost you want to pay. Tracks require lots of crafting and possibly digging through rock. Teleporters require Hardmode and lots of wire purchasing. And Pylons require NPCs that you're willing to not have in your base.

Do not confuse Pylons with happiness; they're not the same mechanic.



The game does that all the time. It rewards you for building boxes with background walls, a light source, a comfort item and a hard-surface item by allowing an NPC to move in there. That's "one way of building" for which you are "rewarded". Yes, the game is not too particular about the specifics of course, but my point is that the game very much does reward you for building in a certain way.

The difference is that you're just used to it.

Minecarts require tracks because there's really no other way for them to work without them. Teleporters COULD be changed to ask for an ID to easily link them together. That'd be super handy actually. Pylons COULD work without the current NPC requirement, but they need them now because that's the limitation they decided to put.

1. I never said Terraria wasn't a sandbox game, (I said exactly the opposite) I said it isn't a perfect sandbox game. There are some things in Terraria that you just can't do. (e.g. build a town in the corruption.) Saying "the world is your canvas" to justify removing sensible limitations from the game makes no sense.

2. It makes sense that pylons should be limited behind NPCs because they are fictional and were advertised as being limited behind NPCs. Neither of these are true for chests, so there isn't a meaningful correlation between the two. Everything was just fine before pylons were even added to the game, so why is it an issue that you want them to behave differently? Just don't use them.
Also, there are teleporters in this game, why can't you use those?



Yes, it does punish certain kind of creativity, as does every aspect of every game. Video games are not the best medium for expressing pure, unlimited, unpunished creativity. One could make the argument that there aren't enough different blocks in Terraria, or it needs more paint colors, or smaller blocks so more detail can be added, and maybe the world should be bigger so you can fit larger builds. Just because something punishes some types of creativity doesn't mean it has a negative impact on the game.

Well, why? The game calls the world your canvas, which implies you can build how you want, much like how you can draw how you want on a canvas. I do think the corruption limitation should be lifted as well. Always found it odd how NPCs dislike Corruption, but are completely fine with living in the Underworld, or even the far more dangerous hardmode Jungle. This is something you can't achieve even in Journey mode, unless you hide Hallow where it can't be seen, I guess.

My comparison to chests is because chests and pylons are both greatly convenient features. You can live without either, but you'd be missing out on features that vastly improve the Terrarian experience. "Just don't use them" isn't a fair counterpoint to the concern of missing out on something super convenient due to the implementation clashing with a preferred build style. The game is 9 years old now and some people have spend dozens or hundreds of hours on their villages and castles, and now with pylons out, the game discourages this way of building and rewards you for spreading out NPCs. I just wish the game could allow you do put your NPCs where you want- spread out, or all together, while still benefiting from the awesome inclusion of pylons. Unlike other tasks in this game where doing something unlocks a reward, they tend to be challenges, but spreading out NPCs is not a challenge, it just disincentives players from building a main base of village, which has been a thing in Terraria for almost a decade. "The world is your canvas!" and "Build your base.. and defend it!" is how the game advertised itself since launch, but these changes no longer make the world your canvas as there is one set way of building without missing out on stuff, and discourages the idea of making a base to defend. Can't defend your NPCs if they're scattered all over the world now.

 

[Nicol Bolas]

Yes, it does punish certain kind of creativity, as does every aspect of every game. Video games are not the best medium for expressing pure, unlimited, unpunished creativity. One could make the argument that there aren't enough different blocks in Terraria, or it needs more paint colors, or smaller blocks so more detail can be added, and maybe the world should be bigger so you can fit larger builds. Just because something punishes some types of creativity doesn't mean it has a negative impact on the game.

I think this conversation is kind of missing the point.

I don't hate happiness because it restricts my "creativity". I hate it because it is an incredibly annoying mechanic to deal with. I have a choice: get a 50% price penalty on every item in the game, or spread out all my NPCs, thus making them much more inconvenient to access.

Why is this a good choice to give the player? And I don't mean some general "games with choices are good" kind of thing. I mean why is this specific choice a good gameplay mechanic?

Take away happiness, and I will "happily" spread out some of my NPCs so I can use Pylon teleportation (the ones I choose to spread out because they're not useful to me). It's happiness that's forcing me to spread them all out.

Minecarts require tracks because there's really no other way for them to work without them. Teleporters COULD be changed to ask for an ID to easily link them together. That'd be super handy actually. Pylons COULD work without the current NPC requirement, but they need them now because that's the limitation they decided to put.

It's important to read my statement in the context of the statement I was replying to. You said, "Point is, the game rewards you for one way of building." My point was that the game is always rewarding "you for one way of building". So saying that it's wrong for the game to do it here with NPCs for that reason isn't a good argument.

The point is that the game has a history of doing this, so you can't say it shouldn't do it because it's not the kind of thing the game does.

 

[smeagolheart]

Just wanted to pop in and voice my support against NPC happiness price increases.

I have no problem with pylons and that part of happiness but I don't agree with, as a game design philosophy, punishing players for building how ever they want to build.

This is the 'bad torch luck' thing all over again.

 

[Snickerbobble]

I think this conversation is kind of missing the point.

I don't hate happiness because it restricts my "creativity". I hate it because it is an incredibly annoying mechanic to deal with. I have a choice: get a 50% price penalty on every item in the game, or spread out all my NPCs, thus making them much more inconvenient to access.

Why is this a good choice to give the player? And I don't mean some general "games with choices are good" kind of thing. I mean why is this specific choice a good gameplay mechanic?

Take away happiness, and I will "happily" spread out some of my NPCs so I can use Pylon teleportation (the ones I choose to spread out because they're not useful to me). It's happiness that's forcing me to spread them all out.



It's important to read my statement in the context of the statement I was replying to. You said, "Point is, the game rewards you for one way of building." My point was that the game is always rewarding "you for one way of building". So saying that it's wrong for the game to do it here with NPCs for that reason isn't a good argument.

The point is that the game has a history of doing this, so you can't say it shouldn't do it because it's not the kind of thing the game does.

There are some limitations in the game because they're kind of needed, for example, what qualifies as an NPC house. I suppose they could do away with the furniture and light source requirement, but if you don't have a room shape or background walls (I suspect walls are needed to prevent enemies from spawning in the room), the game can't really tell what you intend a room to be, so there's a required limitation so the game can know where to assign an NPC. Pylons locked behind NPCs on the other hand, isn't a necessary limitation, as they could totally function without the limitation if they were implemented differently. I don't see this much different from NPC unhappiness, which is a punishment we seem to agree on that isn't fair. It's a limitation not because it needs to be one, but just because they decided it to be one.

There are some other limitations I'd like uplifted too, such as a way to move demon altars, and a way to move or craft the fairy logs. Anything that isn't a limitation tied to a core aspect to the game, ideally, should be removed. A way to grow trees underground, or a way to grow gemtrees above ground, even if you need a special item to do it. Placeable breakables, like pebbles and rocks and mushrooms. Like how the dryad sells lots of flower seeds. But yeah, kind of off-topic, but related still. If it's not a required limitation, then why impose it?