Weapons & Equip The whips go against the principles of the summoner

[Kardfogu]

Unrelated note. The Baghnakhs were nerfed due to insane damage output. You could facetank any boss and spamkill it. Before it kills you.

Incorrect. There is an unexpectedly low number of bosses willing to stay close to you. In theory it was strong. In reality Relogic forgot that they designed their bosses ranged. There remains about 2 of hadmode bosses who have melee AI, not much...

Also if you use a different weapon, with higher DPS, you don't lose anything DPS-wise as the weapon outDPSes summon tag.

Before the slime staff, yeah definitely, but pure summoner after beating Queen Bee destroys the rest with ease and the whip becomes a premier tool for that.

 

[Jostabeere]

Incorrect. There is an unexpectedly low number of bosses willing to stay close to you. In theory it was strong. In reality Relogic forgot that they designed their bosses ranged. There remains about 2 of hadmode bosses who have melee AI, not much...

Before the slime staff, yeah definitely, but pure summoner after beating Queen Bee destroys the rest with ease and the whip becomes a premier tool for that.

Well, any that is willing to stay on you.
Skeletron Prime, Destroyer, Twins, Planters, Golem, Moonlord if I am not mistaken.

Again, logically a pure summoner shouldn't be an argument because it is not an actual mechanic. It is a possibility, and a challenge made by players.
You don't have to choose between a class when you start a game. A "pure" XY class is placebo.

 

[Kardfogu]

Again, logically a pure summoner shouldn't be an argument because it is not an actual mechanic. It is a possibility, and a challenge made by players.
You don't have to choose between a class when you start a game. A "pure" XY class is placebo.

You use the word "logically", but where is the logic?
To clarify, whips have an exclusive mechanic, summon tag damage that increases damage done by minions who specifically deal summon damage.
There is a weapon class clearly designed to be used in a build that is referenced as a summoner. That weapon has a synergy based on that build. Most of the DPS it does relies on the presence and activity of other items it has a synergy with.
Using it out of that build is a worst case scenario, it would be just plain bad, because it deals low DPS in itself. It is designed to deal low DPS without that synergy, which is okay.
Using it in that build is sometimes subpar.
Where is the logic that dictates that we can't talk about a summoner when there is this mechanic that literally binds together weapons that do the same type of damage.
Where is the logic that dictates that this weapon should be subpar to other options in any case for the job it does.
What is the reason.
I see no reason.
There is no logic in that.

Weapons in the game are designed around these non-mandatory classes, they have specific damage types even. Accessories and armors to support these specializations. It is dare, like it or not and if people like that and people are interested in that. That's not your problem!
That's the best about it.
It is not your problem.
Then again, if you hate class challenges this much, why don't you just... ...leave those people alone? The game is clearly designed in a way that tries to make that sort of challenge feasible. You like it or not, it is common, people like to roleplay that, people have certain preferences in style and gameplay mechanics. You can't change that. You have to live with that for your entire life. I'm sure you are capable of it, we are adults.
You don't have to throw around exquisitely worded sentences using words like placebo - which is incorrect, placebo is when the associated effect is 100% imaginary, while Terraria clearly and undeniable has gameplay mechanics around these "classes" - and such.
Huh?

Let's concentrate on what the OP thinks.
I actually disagree with quite a lot, I believe making whips a low range option is an interesting twist where important fights where DPS counts become suddenly more dangerous as the class now rewards the player for closing distance. Endgame whips have tremendous power in a purely summoner build, a whip dropped by the Empress of Light has more affect on DPS than a Moonlord drop sentry! It rewards high risk gameplay.
I kinda like that.
Then again, I understand that it is frustrating to OP, because, yeah, summoner builds don't really work at the beginning of the game. He wants to play that, but it is kind of a major pain in a specific parts if you know what I mean. Late pre-hardmode summoner builds are quite destructive tho.

Well, any that is willing to stay on you.
Skeletron Prime, Destroyer, Twins, Planters, Golem, Moonlord if I am not mistaken.

Again, logically a pure summoner shouldn't be an argument because it is not an actual mechanic. It is a possibility, and a challenge made by players.
You don't have to choose between a class when you start a game. A "pure" XY class is placebo.

Skeletron Prime? Keeps distance except for an extremely short interval where it has high armor and very high contact damage: suicide.
Destroyer: Obvious.
Twins: Nahh, try and catch the ranged sister, good luck with that.
Plantera: The other obvious one.
Golem: Joke boss, could count, but again, joke boss.
Moonlord: Good luck with catching up to a boss within 1 block when he is the literal background of your screen and doesn't really move anywhere on that screen. It is possible to outrun him, it is impossible outmanuever. Then again, at that point, your options are vastly superior compared to the Fetid Baghnaks.
That's still 2 boss. Try it out! The rest isn't gonna work out.

 

[Jason_c_o]

It's because tagging with the staff doesn't allow minions to crit.

 

[Jostabeere]

It's because tagging with the staff doesn't allow minions to crit.

Apparently neither does the Whip. I read a post by someone on Steam who explained that the crit tag is not actually a crit, but calculated somehow different. I would like a confirmation on this.

You use the word "logically", but where is the logic?
To clarify, whips have an exclusive mechanic, summon tag damage that increases damage done by minions who specifically deal summon damage.
There is a weapon class clearly designed to be used in a build that is referenced as a summoner. That weapon has a synergy based on that build. Most of the DPS it does relies on the presence and activity of other items it has a synergy with.
Using it out of that build is a worst case scenario, it would be just plain bad, because it deals low DPS in itself. It is designed to deal low DPS without that synergy, which is okay.
Using it in that build is sometimes subpar.
Where is the logic that dictates that we can't talk about a summoner when there is this mechanic that literally binds together weapons that do the same type of damage.
Where is the logic that dictates that this weapon should be subpar to other options in any case for the job it does.
What is the reason.
I see no reason.
There is no logic in that.

That's the thing. You see no logic. But because you see no logic doesn't mean there is no logic behind it.
But then you are wrong. It is not designed TO BE USED, it CAN BE USED. Using it without summons is dumb, yes. But using summons without it is not illogical.
Relying on a whip 100% of the time is illogical, as you just limit yourself. You have tools you can use, which are stronger than the lousy summon tag damage. There are various debuffs used by various weapons and various strategies.
Simply saying: Whips have that synergy, so I have to use them, is just stupid.
Noone ever talked about using a whip outside of that build. Sorry, that part is just out of place.
Noone said it is illogical to use whips. I said if you think that whips simply do not fit what you wanna do, don't use them. If you think they are weak, don't use them. If you think anything related to this, it is logical to use something different.
Noone said whips are always subpar to other options. They are sometimes, but not always. You have to logically decide what is better.
The game has so many fun stuff, but it feels like pearls thrown at pigs, with summoner players.

Weapons in the game are designed around these non-mandatory classes, they have specific damage types even. Accessories and armors to support these specializations. It is dare, like it or not and if people like that and people are interested in that. That's not your problem!
That's the best about it.
It is not your problem.
Then again, if you hate class challenges this much, why don't you just... ...leave those people alone? The game is clearly designed in a way that tries to make that sort of challenge feasible. You like it or not, it is common, people like to roleplay that, people have certain preferences in style and gameplay mechanics. You can't change that. You have to live with that for your entire life. I'm sure you are capable of it, we are adults.
You don't have to throw around exquisitely worded sentences using words like placebo - which is incorrect, placebo is when the associated effect is 100% imaginary, while Terraria clearly and undeniable has gameplay mechanics around these "classes" - and such.
Huh?

So what if they are designed in that way in some parts of the game? If you are an actually good Terraria player, you know that a lot of times out of class boundaries make you better at the game.
But I will use an actually physical example. Early hardmode. Your armors do not boost any damage. Nor ranged, melee or magic. By your logic every single player is not allowed to use any weapon before he gets Fossil, Bee or Jungle armor. Your playstyl is built around armor and accessories that boost a damage. Well, sucks for you, you aren't allowed to use anything as those things don't boost any class.
Do not put words in my mouth. I never said I hate challenges. You simply seem to fail or refuse to understand that made-up player content should not be the center of balance.
If I take a mod and buff the EoCs HP to 1,000,000,000,000, does Re-Logic have to buff any weapon in the game now? No. Because I made that up. So if you, or anyone else make-up a challenge and ignore most aspects of the game, Re-Logic should not balance the game around your flawed challenge. You either make yourself the challenge and simply play it, or you don't, but don't complain that the game is imbalanced around some made-up rules.
The term I threw at you applies, as the rules set by challenges are 100% imaginary. You imagine some rules and play by them. They do not apply to everyone and the games intended balance.

Let's concentrate on what the OP thinks.
I actually disagree with quite a lot, I believe making whips a low range option is an interesting twist where important fights where DPS counts become suddenly more dangerous as the class now rewards the player for closing distance. Endgame whips have tremendous power in a purely summoner build, a whip dropped by the Empress of Light has more affect on DPS than a Moonlord drop sentry! It rewards high risk gameplay.
I kinda like that.
Then again, I understand that it is frustrating to OP, because, yeah, summoner builds don't really work at the beginning of the game. He wants to play that, but it is kind of a major pain in a specific parts if you know what I mean. Late pre-hardmode summoner builds are quite destructive tho.

That is what I am thinking. Whips + summons have a huge DPS, if used in the right situation. They are still really good at mobbing, as any melee class it basically. but they cannot be used with the same effectivity everywhere. Same applies to any weapon class. They all have advantages and disadvantages. Bows in caving are subpar to melee or block-piercing weapons for example. Swords are subpar at bossing with really fast bosses.
I disagree that they don't work. Again, a summoner is not dictated by a whip. You're a summoner, not a whipper. it may be adviseable to use one, but not mandatory. You are not less of a Summoner without a whip. I love to use my endgame Summoner on Master with the Psycho knife, as it stealths me, and I can completely rely on much easier dodging. Am I less of a summoner because of that to some guy who swings his ... err, I mean whip, at a boss and dies 10 times? No, it makes me a smart summoner.

Skeletron Prime? Keeps distance except for an extremely short interval where it has high armor and very high contact damage: suicide.
Destroyer: Obvious.
Twins: Nahh, try and catch the ranged sister, good luck with that.
Plantera: The other obvious one.
Golem: Joke boss, could count, but again, joke boss.
Moonlord: Good luck with catching up to a boss within 1 block when he is the literal background of your screen and doesn't really move anywhere on that screen. It is possible to outrun him, it is impossible outmanuever. Then again, at that point, your options are vastly superior compared to the Fetid Baghnaks.
That's still 2 boss. Try it out! The rest isn't gonna work out.

As far as I know it was possible to shred Skeletron withn he spun at you before he killed you. I don't know about the ranged sister. Does it flee from you? never fought it with Fetids.
People beat Moonlord with Psycho knife, another shortsword.
Oh, I found it. I am sure not possible anymore to that extent, but here you go.

 

[Kardfogu]

Apparently neither does the Whip. I read a post by someone on Steam who explained that the crit tag is not actually a crit, but calculated somehow different. I would like a confirmation on this.

That's the thing. You see no logic. But because you see no logic doesn't mean there is no logic behind it.
But then you are wrong. It is not designed TO BE USED, it CAN BE USED. Using it without summons is dumb, yes. But using summons without it is not illogical.
Relying on a whip 100% of the time is illogical, as you just limit yourself. You have tools you can use, which are stronger than the lousy summon tag damage. There are various debuffs used by various weapons and various strategies.
Simply saying: Whips have that synergy, so I have to use them, is just stupid.
Noone ever talked about using a whip outside of that build. Sorry, that part is just out of place.
Noone said it is illogical to use whips. I said if you think that whips simply do not fit what you wanna do, don't use them. If you think they are weak, don't use them. If you think anything related to this, it is logical to use something different.
Noone said whips are always subpar to other options. They are sometimes, but not always. You have to logically decide what is better.
The game has so many fun stuff, but it feels like pearls thrown at pigs, with summoner players.

So what if they are designed in that way in some parts of the game? If you are an actually good Terraria player, you know that a lot of times out of class boundaries make you better at the game.
But I will use an actually physical example. Early hardmode. Your armors do not boost any damage. Nor ranged, melee or magic. By your logic every single player is not allowed to use any weapon before he gets Fossil, Bee or Jungle armor. Your playstyl is built around armor and accessories that boost a damage. Well, sucks for you, you aren't allowed to use anything as those things don't boost any class.
Do not put words in my mouth. I never said I hate challenges. You simply seem to fail or refuse to understand that made-up player content should not be the center of balance.
If I take a mod and buff the EoCs HP to 1,000,000,000,000, does Re-Logic have to buff any weapon in the game now? No. Because I made that up. So if you, or anyone else make-up a challenge and ignore most aspects of the game, Re-Logic should not balance the game around your flawed challenge. You either make yourself the challenge and simply play it, or you don't, but don't complain that the game is imbalanced around some made-up rules.
The term I threw at you applies, as the rules set by challenges are 100% imaginary. You imagine some rules and play by them. They do not apply to everyone and the games intended balance.

That is what I am thinking. Whips + summons have a huge DPS, if used in the right situation. They are still really good at mobbing, as any melee class it basically. but they cannot be used with the same effectivity everywhere. Same applies to any weapon class. They all have advantages and disadvantages. Bows in caving are subpar to melee or block-piercing weapons for example. Swords are subpar at bossing with really fast bosses.
I disagree that they don't work. Again, a summoner is not dictated by a whip. You're a summoner, not a whipper. it may be adviseable to use one, but not mandatory. You are not less of a Summoner without a whip. I love to use my endgame Summoner on Master with the Psycho knife, as it stealths me, and I can completely rely on much easier dodging. Am I less of a summoner because of that to some guy who swings his ... err, I mean whip, at a boss and dies 10 times? No, it makes me a smart summoner.

As far as I know it was possible to shred Skeletron withn he spun at you before he killed you. I don't know about the ranged sister. Does it flee from you? never fought it with Fetids.
People beat Moonlord with Psycho knife, another shortsword.
Oh, I found it. I am sure not possible anymore to that extent, but here you go.

That wall of text. So useless. So lacking in reason, logic or any sense.
Whips are designed to work in a summoning build. If whips fail at that, that means they are not good and require a fix.
Simple as that.
You don't need 3993 characters to try and confuse people, it doesn't work. I'm not going to dismiss logic just because you can stretch your opinion over 750 words.

In regard of the Fetid Baghnaks, yeah, one can try and chase bosses, but if you look at the video, there are several things:
#1 Using the Fetid Baghnakhs against anything I mentioned earlier requires the UFO mount or any out of progression gear, preferably post-Plantera or post-Moonlord armor. Any of them missing, the boss either doesn't take damage - because of range - or just kills the player in less than a potion cooldown.
#2 It is painfully slow and absolutely subpar, using it is high risk low reward without post-Moonlord gear in general.
#3 It failed against both Fishron and the Moonlord despite all the gear used and that was only Expert - since then we have Master mode released -, despite all the endgame gear paired with it.

The video doesn't show off the Fetid Baghnakhs as a strong weapon, but shows how strong endgame mounts and armor are.

 

[Jostabeere]

That wall of text. So useless. So lacking in reason, logic or any sense.
Whips are designed to work in a summoning build. If whips fail at that, that means they are not good and require a fix.
Simple as that.
You don't need 3993 characters to try and confuse people, it doesn't work. I'm not going to dismiss logic just because you can stretch your opinion over 750 words.

In regard of the Fetid Baghnaks, yeah, one can try and chase bosses, but if you look at the video, there are several things:
#1 Using the Fetid Baghnakhs against anything I mentioned earlier requires the UFO mount or any out of progression gear, preferably post-Plantera or post-Moonlord armor. Any of them missing, the boss either doesn't take damage - because of range - or just kills the player in less than a potion cooldown.
#2 It is painfully slow and absolutely subpar, using it is high risk low reward without post-Moonlord gear in general.
#3 It failed against both Fishron and the Moonlord despite all the gear used and that was only Expert - since then we have Master mode released -, despite all the endgame gear paired with it.

The video doesn't show off the Fetid Baghnakhs as a strong weapon, but shows how strong endgame mounts and armor are.

Quote me where I said that whips work outside of a summoner build or are not meant to be in a summoner build. I wait.
#1 If you knew the game, you would've known that you do not need the Saucer. There are 2 early hardmode pre-mech obtainable mounts with infinite flight. Again an argument based on pure ignorance.
2# It was simply a strawman that shows you why it was nerfed. Absolutely unrelated to the topic, and you claw yourself into it for some unknown reason.
All you do is completely ignore the entire whip-related post. For some reason. Either you don't care, or think my arguments aren't worth it to read them. In such a case you should not take part in a discussion.
If you read it all, you simply can't say anything about it, effectively ruling yourself out.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I'm not here to debate (been there, done that), just here to watch mostly. Just recently crafted the Cool Whip weapon & am having an absolute blast in Master Mode!
Also, just found out that Re-Logic has no plans on re-balancing any major game-play mechanics, so Summoner likely won't be touched/ changed (yay)!

Anyhow, if anyone is having a tough time with the Class, I have an extensive list of tips, tricks & philosophies that may help (below).
[My take on the new 1.4.0.5 Summoner Class]

 

[Kardfogu]

#1 If you knew the game, you would've known that you do not need the Saucer. There are 2 early hardmode pre-mech obtainable mounts with infinite flight. Again an argument based on pure ignorance.

#1 Please, stop blaming people for not knowing things. It is rude. You clearly don't seem to like me and my middle ground position in this debate, but...

• Shrimpy Truffle, drops from Fishron. As told, Fishron is way too fast and damaging to be killed by the Fetid Baghnaks.
• Black Spot, it is fast, true, but if YOU played the game you'd know it's only fast horizontally and can't manuever well. It only works for cheesing bosses by kiting tactics, it doesn't work for chasing them.

I was expecting you to know this, so I didn't bother telling you. Let's continue like if I didn't have to tell you the obvious. Be more civilized about it.

#2 You're not a moderator, thus it is not your job to decide if I can or can not join the discussion or if I have any place in it. If you think I'm breaking the Forum's guidelines, report my comment using the bottom left "Report" button! Well, the Forum page states the names of staff with an Online status, it is possible to even directly approach moderating staff about possible concerns.

Can we get back to the topic and be constructive about it?

The point is lategame whips are largely useful with a high risk high reward style to them. The Kaleidoscope is powerful enough that it's 20 summon tag damage makes it comparable to statistically stronger weapons in the game. Midgame the Durendal stands up to the game quite well. Early game whips are plenty useful in the peaceful pre-hardmode environment for several exceptions like Eater of Worlds and Brain of Cthulhu.
However, hardmode begins with a powerspike for the bosses and trying to hit bosses with whips becomes a little bit too dangerous in my opinion, just because the early whips DO have a terrible range. While the range of the very first whip is fairly friendly in comparison to a a generic pre-hardmode melee weapon, they start falling behind quickly. Pre-hardmode they can be often useless as the pre-hardmode summons have AI matched by the IQ of the avarage Twitter user, thus, the minions waste any potential tag damage that could normally out-DPS other options.

It doesn't help that, in general, terrain is more rough in pre-hardmode and the summons in pre-hardmode have AI that relies on traversing that terrain. The finch staff could be a nice exception if it wasn't a weapon with bat-AI, sadly, it is.

The problem with whips is more often than not, minion AI and reliance on that. The rest of the time, it is just a terrible range.
That said, whips don't require any major overhaul, but some adjustments would prove useful.
On the other hand, early pre-hardmode summons are terrible.
The worst offender is the silly bird. There is only one thing more useless than a Finch Staff and that is a full set of Vortex armor in singleplayer! =^-^=

Edit: PS
PS.: That said, whips are actually a step in a good direction, a quite large step to be honest. At least some of their damage doesn't rely on minion AI, but our own aim instead, which definitely helps and when the summons join in properly it is more than worth using. It is a very good addition to the game with very minor easily corrected flaws.

 

[Jostabeere]

#1 Please, stop blaming people for not knowing things. It is rude. You clearly don't seem to like me and my middle ground position in this debate, but...

• Shrimpy Truffle, drops from Fishron. As told, Fishron is way too fast and damaging to be killed by the Fetid Baghnaks.
• Black Spot, it is fast, true, but if YOU played the game you'd know it's only fast horizontally and can't manuever well. It only works for cheesing bosses by kiting tactics, it doesn't work for chasing them.

No. Neither will I stop it nor is it rude. You cannot base an objective argument off of ignorance. You cannot simply claim you need something from endgame if it is available in early-game.
Also, you reeeeeeeeally gonna hate me for it, and thoroughly enjoy it. The UFO and the Black Spot are identical in vertical speed 41 mph. I guess you didn't know this... Anything you see him doing with the UFO can be done equally or better with the Black Spot.

I am not a moderator, and I cannot forbid you to join a discussion, that is correct. I can only tell you that you have nothing to do in a discussion if you ignore the opposite and make it a circlejerk of your opinion.
There is a form of mutual respect where people, even if they disagree with each other, actually read what the other writes down and argue based upon that.
If you have an issue hitting enemies with whips in early hardmode, simply don't use whips.
Hardmode is equally deadly for people who use flails or spears. Or non-beam-swords.
Basically the start of hardmode is equally difficult for any class.

 

[Kardfogu]

Basically the start of hardmode is equally difficult for any class.

Looking at the Daedalus...
(Remember, Keys of Light, it's pre-mech, etc-etc. Just if you don't know, it can be obtained in ~20-30 minutes into hardmode before even defeating a single boss.)

This really goes off-topic.
There is no balance in this game, no matter how much you want to believe in it. This almost sounds like a religious level of belief.
This is getting ridiculous.

The UFO and the Black Spot are identical in vertical speed 41 mph.

Except for acceleration, turning and stopping speed. Why am I even answering?

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

[Jostabeere]

Looking at the Daedalus...
(Remember, Keys of Light, it's pre-mech, etc-etc. Just if you don't know, it can be obtained in ~20-30 minutes into hardmode before even defeating a single boss.)

This really goes off-topic.
There is no balance in this game, no matter how much you want to believe in it. This almost sounds like a religious level of belief.
This is getting ridiculous.


Except for acceleration, turning and stopping speed. Why am I even answering?

Obvious troll is obvious.

So I assume the Daedalus is OP for every situation in your eyes? I guess I just start using it as my weapon in caves or against small mobs.
Why do I feel that you make some dumb argument, get told that you don't know something and then start cry troll?
Again if you don't give a single one about the opposite side of a discussion, don't take part in one.
Acceleration: Shield of Cthulhu.
Stopping and turning speed: tapping R and Shield of Cthulhu.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

As I said earlier, I'm not here to debate, but I did find something rather interesting, Summoner related.

• I've been labing the Whips against Biome Mimics (both Underground & Overworld), they were one of the Early-Hardmode enemies that give me the most trouble, in most cases if I ever saw one, I'd just teleport away. Summoner seems to be one of the Classes that nullifies the buff this enemy has to hide inside/ behind walls. It's not an easy fight, but it certainly feels much more fair & doable. So far, I've been able to reliably farm them using the Cool Whip.
• I'm not sure how most of you all feel about Firecracker, but I was super hesitant to give it up due to the explosive damage it did to certain enemies. I did try using it against Biome Mimics first, before moving on, but it seemed as if I was better off using ranged combat before the obvious upgrade. It wasn't bad per se, but the DoT DMG from Cursed Darts was clearly superior at the time (Blowgun).
• Lastly I upgraded to Dart Rifle (Cursed Darts) & Cool Whip, I plan on using this set-up against my first Pirate Invasion, Goblin Plus Invasion & after farming for the Pirate Staff maybe, my first ever Mech Boss.

I'll be back to do either two things... agree with you all wholeheartedly about Whips being bad or reporting my findings in a positive light. Wish me luck!

Edit: Currently using Spider Armor, with a mixture of Spider & Imp Minions (3 Spiders, 2 Imps).

 

[Kardfogu]

As I said earlier, I'm not here to debate, but I did find something rather interesting, Summoner related.

• I've been labing the Whips against Biome Mimics (both Underground & Overworld), they were one of the Early-Hardmode enemies that give me the most trouble, in most cases if I ever saw one, I'd just teleport away. Summoner seems to be one of the Classes that nullifies the buff this enemy has to hide inside/ behind walls. It's not an easy fight, but it certainly feels much more fair & doable. So far, I've been able to reliably farm them using the Cool Whip.
• I'm not sure how most of you all feel about Firecracker, but I was super hesitant to give it up due to the explosive damage it did to certain enemies. I did try using it against Biome Mimics first, before moving on, but it seemed as if I was better off using ranged combat before the obvious upgrade. It wasn't bad per se, but the DoT DMG from Cursed Darts was clearly superior at the time (Blowgun).
• Lastly I upgraded to Dart Rifle (Cursed Darts) & Cool Whip, I plan on using this set-up against my first Pirate Invasion, Goblin Plus Invasion & after farming for the Pirate Staff maybe, my first ever Mech Boss.

I'll be back to do either two things... agree with you all wholeheartedly about Whips being bad or reporting my findings in a positive light. Wish me luck!

Edit: Currently using Spider Armor, with a mixture of Spider & Imp Minions (3 Spiders, 2 Imps).

If you accept my advice, try out as the number of your minions grow planting Crimson (Dryad sells opposing evil seeds in Hardmode, in the Graveyard as I heard) and craft Ichor Darts, the Ichor debuff is awesome. That or just a Golden Shower and add that to your rotation. It's nice that these no longer need world-hopping.

At this point, I mention. It would be nice if whips could inflict debuffs from melee flasks.
After all, these weapons share the prefixes, the melee speed bonuses and the practical range (more or less), it fits into the pattern that a melee Flask would affect these weapons as well.

 

[Jostabeere]

At this point, I mention. It would be nice if whips could inflict debuffs from melee flasks.
After all, these weapons share the prefixes, the melee speed bonuses and the practical range (more or less), it fits into the pattern that a melee Flask would affect these weapons as well.

All weapons have modifiers they share.
Should flasks affect all weapons?

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Okay, so... I've got quite a bit to cover, as I see where the confusion lies now & why most of you don't like the Whip Weapons.

I did two types of invasions, NG+ Goblins & Pirates (Master Mode), both were drastically different & it could be argued Goblins is slightly more difficult?
After farming both events several times, here's what I've gathered about the Whip Weapons & their usefulness:

• In the Goblin Invasion, the Whip was practically useless. There was only one rare occasion it was powerful, but the window was so small, it was better just to use ranged combat as to not get yourself unnecessarily injured or possibly killed, by things snowballing out-of-control. The one rare instance, where you can practically delete the Goblin Summoner, is when he's stunned from consecutive DMG, if you can manage to react, you can kill him in seconds with a Cool Whip. I'd argue, unless you're tying to get as many Goblin Summoners to spawn in one Event as possible, you're better off just playing it safe, winning & coming back later with better gear (but then again, I didn't really see anything useful for Summoners so...).
• The Pirate Invasion is the Event where the Whip Weapon shined the most! I didn't think this would be Meta, but it appears the biggest strength of the Whips is to use them on enemy types that have the ability to either pass through walls, or are Boss-Types who may, or may not have that ability. The three enemies the Cool Whip worked best on are the Parrot, The Captain's Ghost (after he dies) & The Flying Dutchman. Those three enemies basically get erased by Whips! I'm going to keep doing more testing, but it seems pretty clear that Whips are Specialty Weapons used for very specific circumstances.

The Whips' strengths are very particular, but very consistent it seems. The best way I can describe it is, Imagine if there was a video game mechanic where, once an enemy was stunned, you had a brief moment to deplete its health with a special ability (sort of like a riposte, if you've ever played a Dark Souls game).

Whip Weapon's Strengths:

1. Hits certain kinds of enemies through walls (i.e. Angry Trapper, Biome Mimic, Flying Dutchman, Captains Ghost, etc.).
2. Seems to build on some kind of snowballing damage mechanic, where, the more consecutive hits you land, the more DPS you get.
3. Can practically erase powerful enemies that are either stunned, not moving, or trapped behind obstacles.

Whip Weapon's Weaknesses:

1. Fast-moving or teleporting enemies are it's biggest hindrance; though it can kill them pretty fast, it's not worth the risk of getting close (especially if the enemy shoots projectiles).
2. The whips in Early-Hardmode don't seem to give the player very much knock-back, meaning, enemies can easily steamroll the player if they aren't using any kind of item that provides knock-back assistance (i.e. Clinger Staff, Minions with high knock-back).
3. The Cool Whip Summoner weapon has poor range, however, the amount of damage a Summoner can do might be a bit broken if the weapon had more. It appears to ride a very delicate line of being extremely bad or extremely good. I suspect that a person who masters Whips will be able to speed-run pretty reliably, but it's certainly not a weapon that just anyone can pick up & use effectively.

Alright, that's about all I got for now...

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Example One of the weird snowballing DMG mechanic using the Cool Whip: approx 486 DPS.

Example Two of the weird snowballing DMG mechanic using the Cool Whip: approx 1,117 DPS!!

 

[Aurora3500]

Looking at the Daedalus...
(Remember, Keys of Light, it's pre-mech, etc-etc. Just if you don't know, it can be obtained in ~20-30 minutes into hardmode before even defeating a single boss.)

This really goes off-topic.
There is no balance in this game, no matter how much you want to believe in it. This almost sounds like a religious level of belief.
This is getting ridiculous.


Except for acceleration, turning and stopping speed. Why am I even answering?

Obvious troll is obvious.

Quote me where I said that whips work outside of a summoner build or are not meant to be in a summoner build. I wait.
#1 If you knew the game, you would've known that you do not need the Saucer. There are 2 early hardmode pre-mech obtainable mounts with infinite flight. Again an argument based on pure ignorance.
2# It was simply a strawman that shows you why it was nerfed. Absolutely unrelated to the topic, and you claw yourself into it for some unknown reason.
All you do is completely ignore the entire whip-related post. For some reason. Either you don't care, or think my arguments aren't worth it to read them. In such a case you should not take part in a discussion.
If you read it all, you simply can't say anything about it, effectively ruling yourself out.

That is enough from both of you.

Because the discussion between you has not been civil, you have both lost the ability to post on this Thread until further notice. If you cannot remain respectful and debate the topic and not the person, that is when you need to stop. We will follow up in a PM if we decide further account action is needed.

 

[Zemroda]

I disagree. Whips give summoners a way to force their summons to target specific enemies. Which is helpful during events.

edit: And when you look at some of the other class weapons. They don't fit the class either.
Meles get several including boomerangs are melee. (not to mention the northpole).
Mages get guns that consume mana instead of ammo. But this is cause having hundreds of different ammo in the inventory is utter nonsense.

When it comes down to it. Ranger is the only class where every weapon the get fits them. They get, bows, repeaters, guns, launchers, etc.

This is how I know you weren't playing summoner before this update. Summon staffs can be right-clicked near and enemy to focus minions on to them, and it worked really well before whips were added. Now, this mechanic is basically useless, as before you could use the summon staff to tell the minions to go kill something while you were focusing on other things, but the whip overrides whatever you focused on and changes it to whatever enemy you just hit. As others have suggested, the whip either needs to not override summon staff focuses, needs to be a "lower priority" focus tag, or just needs to have a alternate right-click attack that does the "focus" on it, while left-click just hits.

 

[NizzeG]

Yeah i think the wips are really uselles, dosent feel like summoner.