Game Mechanics What Happened To Being Melee? (Read OP, Under Revisionary Scrutiny)

[Muteness]

- Important Notice -
- Please Read 'Before voting'! -​

The following is subject to change. The main point of this thread is to discuess an alternative weapon choice to help prevent melee from feeling the same as those who are ranged. Nothing in this thread is final until it's locked.

If you hate that flails were added to the game, this isn't for you. If you hate yoyo were added, you may want to leave. If you never want to see new weapon choices/content in addition to what we currently have but won't provide a defence for your views - DON'T BOTHER VOTING!

This thread is for those with open minds that are interested in possible new weapons/items and mechanics. It is pointless to vote if you have no intention to evaluate arguments on merit.


CONTEXT OF THREAD
Before you go on to read the following it's important you know the context behind it. This thread's primary intention is not to change the existing weapons/mechanics that players currently have as they may enjoy the things currently in the game. This thread was inspired to question if those who aren't satisfied with status quo choice of melee weapons currently available in-game if they'd approve of recommendations of potential weapons in this thread.

THE OBJECTIVE
The aim is to create and collect concept ideas people have or had and list them for approval by others on the forum to reflect how well received they could be as furture content. This is looking into what new content for melee weapons should behave like if we took the feedback of people who want something different into account.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT "NERFING MELEE"
​

Animated sprites wanted

Spoiler: A short summary of reasoning behind this thread

The problem with close quarters combat is people clearly don't use it often, myself included. This is because you put yourself through difficulty compared to melee weapons with greater range but for no pay-off and probably a longer time to kill things for your troubles. Even if you had higher damage on such weapons the fact is you can't continuously hit enemies as fast on account of having to dodge and etc. That's why I suggested an additional mechanic for a new weapon set to reward the players for putting themselves through inconveniace whilst hopefully maintaining balance and a more intresting form of combat.

This isn't and doesn't need to be an in-depth list to convey the point across. Should you be left doubful/uncertain what the following is about please ask questions, not give opinions.

• Point blank Weapons; you can't avoid damage easily whilst attacking, it limits you to have at least - or more than - a minimal amount of armour due to risks and in some cases unavoidable damage.

Here's where most would interject stating that's reasonable or fair, but how is it? If you've equipped defence rainsing accessory and armour with high defence stats then you've traded in damage. For the sake of arguement propose there was a set of armour tiered to be a second melee set to the Solar Flare armour but it had 12 less defence and 4% melee damage/speed with 2% increased melee critical. What's fair about rasing your defence and lowering your damage just for the sake of less effective and pratical weapons? The answer as far as I'm concerned is only the novelty. You will take longer to kill things and recieve a much higher total of damage compared to someone else auto-swinging a long ranged melee weapon whilst using wings/mounts to easily dodge attacks with their armour/accessories all focused on damage.

• Flails/yoyos; easier to use and don't have the problem but at that point your attacks become more ranged than melee. Why bother hitting them with anything but you maximum range on said weapon?

• The complicated stuff; Terrablade, Meowmare, Star Wrath and other such weapons are classified under melee damage, as are a veriaty of thrown animations. To avoid making an obnoxiously longer list I'm simply going to classify all these here; the melee weapons with the most range. There are no downsides to using these compared to anyother weapons. Even if we pretend that all melee weapons had identical damage/attack speed in their tier group - could you come up with an objective reason to not use the most ranged melee weaponry?

I like to think it's mostly universal that people would like to see something more exciting and engaging from melee combat and I figured since we're asking for new weapons anyway why not add new combat mechanics with it? There's probably existing coding in the game that could be adapted for this (at least that's my hope).

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Anything I should included/explain better/take out?
POST AND TELL ME!

Spoiler: First Concept | NOT FINAL |

What I'd like to suggest is an alternative for melee, something where you don't feel like you're sitting back/running away whilst you shoot. That doesn't feel like I'm using melee, now does it? It almost feels like the only differences are in the menu, I open my inventory to read the tag "melee damage" and the fact that I don't consume ammo or mana when I fire. So how about we spice the combat up? What if we put those with the most armour front and centre! .... please?

For this we need a whole new range of weapons spanning somewhere from 'end game' backwards. I think it's important that they don't drop too low in tiers that they become first/fifth item choices because one; your armour is going to be rubbish at early stages of the game and two; it's meant to fulfil satisfying combat through mobility and that could get messy for balancing at early tiers.


- Mechanics & Various Details -

This genre of weapons (yes I'm substituting the word genre because I wasn't happy with what to name this yet, you'll cope) could use mechanics similar to the Rod of Discord: You teleport (or at least move very fast) in a direction you click, BUT for a limited distance AND you can't go through foreground blocks except platforms. All enemies you move pass are pieced for your weapon's damage as you move invulnerably passed them. I'm also debating a block feature in which you press right mouse button for a damage reducing block - an armour buff appears only when held. Blocking isn't a mechanic we really see from anything player related, it might be cool to see it in action with multiplayer against mobs, and whilst typing this I'm imagining that balancing for PVP would be intriguing. An alternative is to hold the left mouse button rather than have an auto swing. This is one of the very, very few cases that having a auto swing on a weapon could potentially be a bad thing. Limitation are important, such as you aren't allowed to move any higher than 90° sideways in mid-air unless you have equipped wings or are on a flying mount (this shouldn't be some weird form of flying).
Blocking could perhaps reduce knock back or have it so you're knocked in the direction you're already moving. It could even do something similar to the Cross Necklace and/or Panic Necklace to allow you to distance yourself before you're ready to launch your next attack.

Here's what I'm thinking.
Weapons should all be swords (for now).
Melee damage/critical chance could be higher than most weapons as a risk/reward balance.
Velocity is a kink, unsure about this.
Knock back to enemies is also something I'm unsure of, maybe they could be knocked towards your original position? Hmm...
Use time should probably best as very fast ~8 or so frames but have a cooldown between swings, like on the other swords and their projectile abilities, but it was be awesome to have one or two that charges up for its attack?
Mutiple attacks on the same mobs stack a buff on the player using this type of weapon simular to the effects of Beetle Armour whereby damage and maybe crit too are buffed per landing consecutive attacks on the same target
Rarities blue or upwards most likely.
Prices may vary.


- Bad but valid example -

Name - Scripple (...... shut-up)
Type - Weapon (swords are the default for now)
Damage - 85 / melee
Knock Back - Some or none... (to be determined)
Velocity - (should this even be here?)(this'd be how fast you the player moves)
Distance - 10 feet / 5 blocks (open to editing)
Critical Chance - 15% / 20% / (less? more?)
Rarity - Lime
Use time - 5 / insanely fast (this could have a recharge time similar to things like Starfury)
Tooltip - Hold left mouse button (or right) to block. Uses mana. (THIS IS WHERE WARRIORS COULD HAVE A USE FOR MANA?!?!)(per hit? per second? per level of your excitement?! Wait...)
Sell - 8 gold
In-game effect - Mutiple hits against the same enemy benifets the player over time (PENDING)


Now here comes the part where I admit I'm L-uh... loving fun times ahead?! Yeah, because here's where you can join in, the fun that is, by thinking up what you'd like to see out of this collection... yay!


But seriously, this isn't just about me and what I'd like to see, it's about what all of you think about this little pitch of mine. If this was to be done what would you like to see out of it? How could it be balanced? Have you felt similar in the past? Have you never really thought about melee's range before this thread?
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Spoiler: Second Concept | NOT FINAL |

Weapon type
Polearm (new)

- Mechanics & Various Details -

Like a yoyo this weapon extends from your character as long as you hold down the attack button. It is a long, straight line starting from near the centre of your character, instantly rotating one end towards the cursor. A smaller extension extends the opposite way by about 6 to 8 pixels out, roughly 1~ block.

Polearms are not however flails. The have a maximum and minimum unmodifiable distance they can reach.

All Polearms deal piercing damage and feature increasing the player's defence by an amount equivalent to what tier that Polearm is from. Defence values for tiers white; 2 -3, orange to light purple; 5 - 8, lime to yellow; 10 - 12, and finally for cyan to purple 15.

That's right... 15 defence from just holding a weapon!

- New Mechanics -

Polearms collide with blocks, what does this mean? It means that if you hit the ground or walls around you - you are propelled. An example; you hold the button to attack, you then rotate the weapon clockwise to have your character be flung a short distance to the right quickly depending on how fast you moved your cursor. Think pole jumping.

All Polearms of tier lime or higher have a 60% chance to inflict a new debuff "Stunned" (bosses are immune to stun time). Stunned prevents mobs from moving temporarily, duration will vary based on knockback resistance, meaning the greater that enemy's resistance is, the shorter the duration will be for it. Mobs can't have Stunned debuff refreshed in the middle of already being Stunned, plus they can't be inflicted by it again for 1.5 seconds, starting from when the debuff ranout on them.

The minimum amount of time an enemy can be Stunned is about 0.2 seconds and the longest is maxed at about 1.2 seconds. Mobs affected by Stunned also have their contact damage halved for twice the stun time they had, in the case of bosses their attack is reduced by 25% for 1.5 seconds

Spoiler: Potential Other New Mechanics

The previous doesn't require the following. This part is an unlikely addition to Polearms:

When hitting an enemy with high tier Polearms, a separate faded animated sprite of the Polearm's end appears emanating from your character to give the look of hitting multiple times rapidly. This occurs every two consecutive hits you land and deals one quarter weapon's damage, it doesn't count as piercing and has zero knockback. Think of something similar to Influx Waver for refrence.

Equipping any Polearm will increase your minimum movement speed in mid air by 10% in all directions unless you're riding a mount. That means any method (wings or not) when ascending, moving horizontal and falling will be 10% faster. The falling speed will not stack with the Portal Gun's.

As far as PVP is concerned there will probably never be an issue on account of this being very short range compared to other weapons. In PVP, damage seems to be superior to building up armour.

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Here is the best example of visual representations of what it might look like, though obviously you need a little imagination to see this in Terraria:

At 37 seconds in we see a lunge forward by the player (playing as Sephiroth) where they pass their opponent to deal damage. This is what Concept One is based upon, though without as multiple hits or as lasting stun time/knockback. If we watch 46 seconds in, we see the player deal very rapid hits that are added onto their normal attacks, this is idea of how the Polearm (Concept Two) could work; hitting a mob by hovering the weapon over them has additional damage dealt by sprite if held continuously.
These idea weren't meant to be taken from Dissidia, it just so happened I remembered my experience playing the game and realised it showcased pretty great examples by my favourite character to play as.

Cliff notes of discussions so far

Spoiler: Users concepts submitted

Spoiler: Timed blocking with melee weapons

Exicuting attacks at specific points in time will cancel or medigate damage to your character

Reason for dismissal
Concept doesn't currently take into account how to deal with multiple instances of damage or being attacked from multiple angles.
Doesn't mention how to make timing clear to players, i.e. giving visal cues.
No comparison to elements in the game this could be conpaired to of make use of.
​

Spoiler: Archive

1 - comment #1 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-634417

2 - comment #2 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-634427

Spoiler: Rotating sprite swing

Give melee weapons a secondary attack animation when players press left click with mouse
during the swing animation, providing a secondary attack option.

Reason for dismissal
Concept currently lacks depth and doesn't give details of functionality in different situations.
Doesn't currently give means of damage medigation via blocking, dodging or reduction.
Feature could be added on top of a seperate, more complete idea.​

Spoiler: Archive

1 - comment #50 / Page 3
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-3#post-659233

2 - comment #51 / Page 3
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-3#post-659500

3 - comment #52 / Page 3
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-3#post-659517

4 - comment #53 / Page 3
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-3#post-659552

Spoiler: Durability for weapons

Give melee weapons and potentially other types a limitation of use before needing repairs or other forms of renewal
to use them or their special combat effects.

Reason for dismissal
Is complected without an appropriately good reason for implementing into the game.
Has a high chance of upsetting the player base.​

Spoiler: Archive

1 - comment #77 / Page 4
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-4#post-752949

2 - comment #78 / Page 4
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-4#post-754156

3 - comment #79 / Page 4
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-4#post-754164

Spoiler: Miscellaneous

Spoiler: Discussions on Concept One | Archive

1 - comment #10 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-643082

2 - comment #11 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-643180

3 - comment #12 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-643804

4 - comment #13 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-643945

5 - comment #14 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-643988

6 - comment #15 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-644040

7 - comment #16 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-644062

Spoiler: Opposed views to blocking being incorporated into the game | Archive

Notes:
Comment #19 a users expresses they do not wish to see changes and doesn't want projectiles from melee weapons to cost mana.​

1 - comment #17 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-644085

2 - comment #18 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-644110

3 - comment #19 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-644125

4 - comment #20 / Page 1
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...under-revisionary-scrutiny.27193/#post-644146

5 - comment #23 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-644173

6 - comment #24 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-644194

Spoiler: Commentary on melee mobility | Archive

1 - comment #28 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-644218

2 - comment #29 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-644227

3 - comment #31 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-644292

Spoiler: Expression of dissatisfaction with sword shot projectiles | Archive

1 - comment #37 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-646736

2 - comment #38 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-646762

3 - comment #39 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-646771

4 - comment #40 / Page 2
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-2#post-646796

5 - comment #42 / Page 3
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-3#post-646844

Seperate instance​

1 - comment #47 / Page 3
http://forums.terraria.org/index.ph...revisionary-scrutiny.27193/page-3#post-652600

Thank you list for contributions through disccuion that convinced me to make changes
@Rough Draft
@Daminus

Please do not vote if you have a problem or suggestion and don't post it first. I (or someone else) could answer any questions and help make sure you've avoided misunderstanding. I'm currently giving feedback daily so it shouldn't take more than twenty four hours for a reply.

 

[Nobody Important]

If you try to get melee nerfed I will be the biggest pain in the for as long as the thread is open. That being said I have thought about ways to have "true" melee without invalidating the system already in place. Instead of holding right click to guard you press it before you are struck to deflect the blow. You can resist up to 99% of damage if you time it correctly. The longer the time after you right click is the less you are protected by it. You could craft your sword into a sword and shield with a few extra bars. That would allow a slight improvement for the time deflection is viable. It also would allow you to hold right click to provide a flat defense boost.

Just a couple random ideas I had.

 

[Xylia]

If you try to get melee nerfed I will be the biggest pain in the for as long as the thread is open. That being said I have thought about ways to have "true" melee without invalidating the system already in place. Instead of holding right click to guard you press it before you are struck to deflect the blow. You can resist up to 99% of damage if you time it correctly. The longer the time after you right click is the less you are protected by it. You could craft your sword into a sword and shield with a few extra bars. That would allow a slight improvement for the time deflection is viable. It also would allow you to hold right click to provide a flat defense boost.

Just a couple random ideas I had.

Meh. I don't like "hit this to block" games very much.

The ONLY game that has ever done that right, was Dust: An Elysian Tail.

The problem with "Hit this to block" games is that you're trying to hit some other button in a ridiculously small window (otherwise your blocks are ineffective in most of these games) and it is almost always better to avoid the enemies' attacks outright than to try blocking as the reward for doing so is usually small, and the penalty for failing is usually high.

BUT...

In Dust: AET, you use the same button you use for melee attacks to parry incoming attacks. This allows you to focus on jumping, attacking, and doing all of your usual stuff without requiring the use of an extra button. As long as this button is held down when the attack comes in, and IF you are facing said attack, you will parry it (and you get this awesome slow-down effect and sound effect that makes it look awesome) AND most enemies are dazed and are wide-open for high-damage attacks for a couple seconds.

I'm not saying we should do slow-downs every time someone blocks an attack in Terraria, but if we're going to do blocking (I'd like to see this), I DO suggest we use the same button we use for attacking like they did in Dust: AET. The combat in Dust just flows nicely, and even enemies that you must parry to kill, they aren't so bad because the game isn't so ridiculously draconian about when you hit what button to actually parry.

Now, obviously, if you got an auto-swing sword (Dust's was auto-swing too), you could just mow through the lands blocking everything, right? Well, we could either add some sort of block meter that allows you to only block a certain amount of damage until you let the thing refill (which would get better as time goes on?) or maybe use mana as the OP suggested, or some other mechanic that only allows you to block certain things?

But yeah, if we're doing blocking, we had better be doing it Dust-style. I don't want no third button that I must use to block. If it comes to that, I'd rather just avoid attacks entirely like we've been doing, which is what I usually end up doing in those kinds of games except for enemies that you MUST parry. If there are too many of those, I simply won't play the game (Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance comes to mind).

EDIT: I will add that is one of the reasons why I haven't been playing Starbound. They went the wrong route of A). Requiring a separate button, and B). The "You must hit the button in a ridiculously small window!" stuff I hate.

 

[Nobody Important]

Meh. I don't like "hit this to block" games very much.

The ONLY game that has ever done that right, was Dust: An Elysian Tail.

The problem with "Hit this to block" games is that you're trying to hit some other button in a ridiculously small window (otherwise your blocks are ineffective in most of these games) and it is almost always better to avoid the enemies' attacks outright than to try blocking as the reward for doing so is usually small, and the penalty for failing is usually high.

BUT...

In Dust: AET, you use the same button you use for melee attacks to parry incoming attacks. This allows you to focus on jumping, attacking, and doing all of your usual stuff without requiring the use of an extra button. As long as this button is held down when the attack comes in, and IF you are facing said attack, you will parry it (and you get this awesome slow-down effect and sound effect that makes it look awesome) AND most enemies are dazed and are wide-open for high-damage attacks for a couple seconds.

I'm not saying we should do slow-downs every time someone blocks an attack in Terraria, but if we're going to do blocking (I'd like to see this), I DO suggest we use the same button we use for attacking like they did in Dust: AET. The combat in Dust just flows nicely, and even enemies that you must parry to kill, they aren't so bad because the game isn't so ridiculously draconian about when you hit what button to actually parry.

Now, obviously, if you got an auto-swing sword (Dust's was auto-swing too), you could just mow through the lands blocking everything, right? Well, we could either add some sort of block meter that allows you to only block a certain amount of damage until you let the thing refill (which would get better as time goes on?) or maybe use mana as the OP suggested, or some other mechanic that only allows you to block certain things?

But yeah, if we're doing blocking, we had better be doing it Dust-style. I don't want no third button that I must use to block. If it comes to that, I'd rather just avoid attacks entirely like we've been doing, which is what I usually end up doing in those kinds of games except for enemies that you MUST parry. If there are too many of those, I simply won't play the game (Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance comes to mind).

No arguments from me. I usually just either build myself as a tank or keep my distance. You probably could put a better system in place than I could.

 

[Muteness]

If you try to get melee nerfed I will be the biggest pain in the for as long as the thread is open.

I'm afraid I don't follow... For clarity this is a thread based upon the notion melee combat could have new options available, this is in no way about taking any away. The idea is players would be able to maintain a closer distance whilst executing mechanics to dodge and attack simultaneously and the secondary suggestion of if there could be a block function incorporated is being entertained so others can make criticisms about how realistic it'd be to realise this in-game.

Meh. I don't like "hit this to block" games very much.

The ONLY game that has ever done that right, was Dust: An Elysian Tail.

The problem with "Hit this to block" games is that you're trying to hit some other button in a ridiculously small window (otherwise your blocks are ineffective in most of these games) and it is almost always better to avoid the enemies' attacks outright than to try blocking as the reward for doing so is usually small, and the penalty for failing is usually high.

Please bear in mind this is being an additional option to players, this isn't an overhaul of all melee weapons in general. The features suggested here are unique to this particular set of weapons.

Now with any new item(s) in an existing game like this it's your choice to use them. You don't like it; don't use it. That being said, would you be unhappy to see this being used by other players? If so then for what reasons? Do you think the block function is too difficult to implement? Personally I think a means of melee characters being able to reduce incoming damage with potentially something like not being able to attack whilst doing this to gain extra mobility for kiting would add a little variance to the combat and indeed may make something new and viable to build upon. If you have something like the Paladin's Shield then why not couple it with ways and means to better avoid damage? Basically a set of weapons that open up new defensive plays.

Of course that's only one of the possible ways this could go, for balance reasons it could be different? I welcome interjection but please reason it.

 

[Nobody Important]

I'm afraid I don't follow... For clarity this is a thread based upon the notion melee combat could have a new options available, this is in no way about taking any away. The idea is player would be able to maintain a closer distance whilst executing mechanics to dodge and attack simultaneously and the secondary suggestion of if there could be a block function incorporated is being entertained so others can make criticisms about how realistic it'd be to realise this in-game.

I just hate it when people try to nerf melee, there are quite a few people that have tried that. I have no problems with people adding on to it, hell I'll help you do so. Adding alternatives is a good thing in my opinion.

Sorry for seeming a bit hostile, I am not a morning person.

 

[Xylia]

@Muteness : I was replying to crackshot, not you.

As far as your questions, I would not mind weapons that function differently than other weapons, as long as the game is not designed with the assumption that I must use them. If they are optional, fine. If they are not optional, then we could have a problem.

As it is, I don't like there being 1-4 decent endgame weapons for melee... it'd be nice if there'd been a bit more variety, but once I get Solar Eruption, it is like "eh... nothing else needed".

 

[Muteness]

I just hate it when people try to nerf melee, there are quite a few people that have tried that. I have no problems with people adding on to it, hell I'll help you do so. Adding alternatives is a good thing in my opinion.

Sorry for seeming a bit hostile, I am not a morning person.

No problem. I was worried there that I made a grave mistake and miss-communicated my intentions. If my opening post isn't clear then please inform me.

As it is, I don't like there being 1-4 decent endgame weapons for melee... it'd be nice if there'd been a bit more variety, but once I get Solar Eruption, it is like "eh... nothing else needed".

This isn't just about potentially another one or two new weapons for the end game, it's also about addressing melee's play-through of hard mode and onwards. It would be nice if we could get back our ability to psychically stay close to our targets and deal damage. Hell it might even mean we could incorporate our hooks into combat. I.e we execute an attack and hook onto a wall in dungeons, using it as a means of dodging between attack/positioning to set up other attacks.

I don't know, it just seems fun to me.

 

[Muteness]

Upon thinking about it afterwards maybe this'd be better under "new mechanics". My issue with muti segement threads is that I neer know where to put them. I'd appreciate it if anyone can advise.

 

[Rough Draft]

While this sounds like it'd be neat to look at, a weapon that has you dash through your opponent for damage would be miserable to try to balance. End-game bosses have super high HP and basically all end-game boss fights consist of dodging like crazy while spraying projectiles in a target's general direction and hoping some hit. Basically, a massive amount of DPS is needed. The kind of weapon you suggest does not allow a massive amount of DPS.

Think of it this way: Your dash-through weapon allows you to damage a target once each time you line yourself up and hit the attack button. This requires you to turn around if your attack doesn't instantly kill the target. Against bosses, this would mean rotating back and forth to dash through an enemy over and over for several minutes until it dies. And you're either invulnerable while doing this, or right on top of whatever is spraying hate projectiles at you, meaning you're either doomed or incapable of failure. Making the damage high enough to not take several hundred dashes means making it high enough to completely trivialize non-boss enemies, especially if you want it to be high enough that you can dash through bosses sparingly and defensively without taking an hour to fight a boss.

This issue of needing high DPS could be fixed by having some sort of DoT effect applied in stacks by your attack, but then your main strategy will be to poke the target a bunch and then hide, essentially making you a ty summoner.

 

[Muteness]

While this sounds like it'd be neat to look at, a weapon that has you dash through your opponent for damage would be miserable to try to balance. End-game bosses have super high HP and basically all end-game boss fights consist of dodging like crazy while spraying projectiles in a target's general direction and hoping some hit. Basically, a massive amount of DPS is needed. The kind of weapon you suggest does not allow a massive amount of DPS.

Think of it this way: Your dash-through weapon allows you to damage a target once each time you line yourself up and hit the attack button. This requires you to turn around if your attack doesn't instantly kill the target. Against bosses, this would mean rotating back and forth to dash through an enemy over and over for several minutes until it dies. And you're either invulnerable while doing this, or right on top of whatever is spraying hate projectiles at you, meaning you're either doomed or incapable of failure. Making the damage high enough to not take several hundred dashes means making it high enough to completely trivialize non-boss enemies, especially if you want it to be high enough that you can dash through bosses sparingly and defensively without taking an hour to fight a boss.

This issue of needing high DPS could be fixed by having some sort of DoT effect applied in stacks by your attack, but then your main strategy will be to poke the target a bunch and then hide, essentially making you a ty summoner.

OK, you seem to have pretty valid views, however I don't think you put enough effort in to the reprehension. A damaging debuff would make it better against bosses, however I'd prefer if it had something like an ichor one that doesn't stack with other sources, in practise I guess it'd work on a first-come-first-sevre bases when it comes to what that mob can be inflicted by. That seems fair? What I was kind of hoping for was to have players spread out a bit in mutiplayer AND to open up something that's more true to close quarter combat. Being able to lower defence of targets meain it has more syngy if player in groups.

Anyway I didn't mean to give the impression of this being on par with all melee weapons. I see nothing wrong with this being slightly less powerful/useful compared to things like Meowmare and Star Wrath, just better suited to change playing melee up.

Now about the projectile issue, that's kind of the reason a form of blocking/defence rasing would be appreciated with a sort of risk/reward take to melee. The reward doesn't have to be sheer power, it could just be the novelty and challenge in using weapons like this.

 

[Rough Draft]

If a debuff doesn't stack with other sources and is an entire playstyle's primary source of damage against bosses, multiple players are discouraged from using the same playstyle, and that's pretty much awful. And unfortunately, you not expecting it to be very good isn't a good enough reason to add something in that hasn't been balanced to be on-par with other things of its tier, as a few million people who aren't you will also use it with different expectations. With the speed and rate projectiles fire, being right on top of an enemy gives you no time to block reliably. Your idea is really cool, don't get me wrong, but it just isn't suited to end-game play without something to make it do the sort of small, rapid hits that the rest of Terraria's entire end-game is based and balanced around.

Out of curiosity, how hung up on this 'dash through your target animu-style' thing are you?

 

[Muteness]

Out of curiosity, how hung up on this 'dash through your target animu-style' thing are you?

Well if you have a better alturnetive to melee characters mantaining max distance that can whilst auto swinging weapons like the Possessed Hatched, Star Wrath, Meowmare, Yoyo with Yoyo Bags equipped and etc I'd like to read it. I just wanted an alternative playstyle that doesn't necessarily depend on attacking things on the edge of your screen with "melee" damage.

If a debuff doesn't stack with other sources

To clarify it specifically doesn't with ichor. I see no reason it shouldn't with other debuffs. This is because stacking defence lowering debuffs might throw off balancing a regular mutiplayer play-through.

multiple players are discouraged from using the same playstyle, and that's pretty much awful.

That doesn't seem like it'd be the case, I don't get why they couldn't be a few people using this variant of weaponry? Anyway the debuff idea hasn't even been drafted yet. To put in in prospective of a rough idea of one possibility; two debuff types; first lowers defence, second has the inflicted target take a bonus 5% damage from that player OR takes damage over time for 15, (which ever is final version) stacks up to 5 times, lasts 6 seconds.

Unbalanced that the same player could change weapons back & forth? Not really, swapping weapons mid fight isn't done enough and using this form of weapon would probably make it hard to do since there's probably a defensive reason it works better at its kind of range. If you have a better suggestion then please share it. I haven't thought of one yet or I would of posted it by now. Perhaps I may in future, in which case I'll update OP. The idea is to encourage discussion so that I or someone else can think of something good to expand upon this, or change it. If there's no discussion there's no progression.

Now, about what you typed:

multiple players are discouraged from using the same playstyle

Another way to view this is a positive, meaning that this class of weapons encourages you to mix your weapon choices to maximise damage output. The player with the most armour can now separate himself more from those with less. They can take the aggro further from others. Currently I see no reason an entire team shouldn't all ride the Cosmic Car Key mount and all strafe in uniform wilding whatever weapons that all hit as far as or just further than their line of sight.
[DOUBLEPOST=1437773705,1437773151][/DOUBLEPOST]A side note; stacking a form of debuff is just one possible solution to making this weapon work against bosses, another is to simply balance the damage out so there's no need for one.

Met the combo meter that only progresses the more you hit the same enemy. The idea is it works like Bettle Might buff except it won't stack unless you've hit the same mob more than twice and it could have increases intervals between its stages of stacking, i.e - three hits on the same enemy; melee damage and crit raised by 4%, three more; melee damage and crit raised by 10%, three mores; melee damage and crit raised by 14%.

OR
Three hits; melee damage and crit raised by 5%, five more hits, melee damage and crit raised by 10%, seven more hits; melee damage and crit raised by 15%.

Thoughts?

 

[Rough Draft]

Currently, and historically, players have been free to use any play style they like with other players. This kind of freedom is good, it means everyone can have fun without someone else 'taking up' their favorite play style. If a certain play style depends on a debuff that can only be placed a certain number of times, this introduces a problem of 'I want to play melee, so you can't now.' That's just not the kind of game Terraria is.

As for an alternative form of close-range damage, we already have a decent form of close-range damage in swords and axes, they just need a new feature added to them other than 'projectiles' to make people who're mad about shooty-sword happy. Make the weapon do more damage if you're higher on health, or deal increasing damage up to a cap when striking a target consecutively without getting hit (which you suggested as I was typing this, so there's that). Give a weapon a mid-sized blade and make it attack like the arkhalis. Nobody complains about the huge- blade of fire... crafting something like that which swings extremely rapidly in a figure 8 would both look awesome and give you a decent enough distance to move around while still being fairly close and aggressive. Yet another item could be a ranged-esque weapon (like a chain sword) which does more damage the closer the target is to the player, which falls in line with your risk/reward gameplay idea while giving the melee user plenty of tactical options.

For that matter, why does the player only swing one blade? Projectileless variants that do more damage and swing two at once (perhaps in a scissor motion?) would be awesome. And being able to use two different melee weapons at once would be more so. All of these ideas would conserve the player's ability to move around and deal rapid, controlled amounts of damage while remaining in melee range.

 

[Muteness]

Currently, and historically, players have been free to use any play style they like with other players.

Somehow I doubt this'd ever become a big issue but OK, let's go with that it will; doesn't my combo meter idea solve that problem? Each player is recieving their own instance of a buff and there's no problem with serval players all wearing Bettle Armour, so there should be conflict with stacking weapons of this kind either.

 

[Rough Draft]

That idea does solve that problem, and I like it quite a bit! Mages get their own bar for mana, ranged gets its own slots for ammo, so a meter for melee would be a great addition. Also I guess summoning exists.

 

[Redstonetam15]

I dont support for many reasons. Blocking a bit of Minecraft's thing. I don't think it would be a great idea to implement too, it would be simply too much skill.

 

[Muteness]

Also I guess summoning exists.

Pics or it never happened.

But seriously melee have receive huge amounts compared to other classes and it feels like they do what they can but without restraints of mana or bullets. I like to think a majority of people would prefer to mix it up a bit. As for buffing the other classes... that probably needs to happen but that's not the subject of this thread.

I'm glad that you approve of the idea.

I dont support for many reasons. Blocking a bit of Minecraft's thing. I don't think it would be a great idea to implement too, it would be simply too much skill.

Many being that you don't want to copy Minecraft because block belongs to it? I have to point out that blocking isn't, has never and will never be something unique to Minecraft, ever. Blocking occurs is many, many sandbox based games. I fail to understand your reasoning.

As for this having too high a skill ceiling please understand this is just one set of weapons that I propose be added to the existing ones. This doesn't change what you can already use nor affect them in anyway. This is for the players that DO want to use these. Do you object to new furniture set being added? Just like with those there is no reason for you to use them if you don't wish to.

 

[Redstonetam15]

Many being that you don't want to copy Minecraft because block belongs to it? I have to point out that blocking isn't, has never and will never be something unique to Minecraft, ever. Blocking occurs is many, many sandbox based games. I fail to understand your reasoning.

As for this having too high a skill ceiling please understand this is just one set of weapons that I propose be added to the existing ones. This doesn't change what you can already use nor affect them in anyway. This is for the players that DO want to use these. Do you object to new furniture set being added? Just like with those there is no reason for you to use them if you don't wish to.

The melee system is as fine as it is and I enjoy the projectile swords. You're also potentially bringing back an old mechanic for melee; the stars that come from the Starfury will use mana again.

 

[Muteness]

The melee system is as fine as it is and I enjoy the projectile swords.

If it's fine as it is then why would additional content ruin that? Please explain your reasoning as to why you're disdaining of this? If you don't inform me I'll be forced to ignore your input because so far it doesn't look constructive.

You're also potentially bringing back an old mechanic for melee; the stars that come from the Starfury will use mana again.

I'm not. If I wanted melee weapons to use mana for their current additions like projectiles then I would of said so. Besides the developers haven't decided to make that the case with any of the old or new weapons. If they choose to leave them like they are then that's probably how they'll stay. Mana cost is suggestion to make these weapons feel unique and to help balacne out a method for damage reduction.