Weapons & Equip What Thorium Mod teaches us about early game.

[Toxophilite [East]]

This post is obviously old, so I think it'd be completely unfair to judge the content here by today's standards, as of 1.4.3.6.

That being the case, I think this post would likely benefit more from perspective, instead of a critique, seeing as how perspective can be neutral. One of the mistakes that I think many Terrarians make, is getting caught up in the "Class Wars", in short, this describes a point-of-view in which players believe that the optional Classes in the game play a vital role in the greater whole of it's overall theme [which is far from the truth].

This isn't my opinion by the way, as I'd like to remind everyone here, it's more-than-possible to beat Terraria by strictly using Mechanisms, Bolder Traps, and other Class avoidant features, without using a single Weapon.

If anything, Classes in Terraria are the sprinkles on top of an already tasty Ice Cream Bowl, it doesn't need them to exist, and it's identity wouldn't be the least compromised had the feature been replaced with a different system entirely. This game doesn't quite depend on a Class System to define the identity of the Player, in the same manner as something like Morrowind, Skyrim, Fallout: New Vegas, or Final Fantasy VII.

In truth, Terraria could've easily went with Architypes, in a similar manner to a Fighting Game and gotten similar results. Just make each "type" of playstyle "feel different", and it would of course make the game a bit more entertaining. Would this contain the "essence" of what Terraria is? "No, it couldn't possibly... because then you'd have to ask the same question about a similar game, Minecraft, in which the answer would be a definite NO!"

---

The point here is, a "Class-focused-Mod" couldn't possibly teach Terraria anything about itself, it's simply not possible. Could it make some interesting and unique changes, that could possibly improve that specific feature of the game [Classes], of course it could; I'm sure there's Mods out there that already have!

One thing I'd like to add here as well, is that I think examining Terraria in a vacuum is a mistake, because that simply doesn't apply to actual gameplay, ever. Is Wooden Armor abysmal? You could make an argument for that, sure... but rarely is Wooden Armor alone in its use to the Player, a real playthrough would look more like this:

• any Wooden Armor [2+1]
• Shackle Accessory [+1], with a possible Modifier.
• Step Stool, with possible Modifier.

All the Player would need is a Armored Modifier on any of these two easy-to-obtain Accessories, and their defense would be six [6].

---

Also, what's with the distain Terrarians seem to have with "Humble Beginnings"? I do find it rather odd, that so many seem eager to add Combat Modifiers to a fresh, new Character, before even deciding what the Character will be; which some choose to just build things, and not even engage in "Combat Progression", which is a totally valid option.

I think it's fine to be introduced to newer mechanics as you progress [i.e. Class Emblems], less-is-more is still a valid design choice... just in case people've forgotten.

 

[Doodles]

Also, what's with the distain Terrarians seem to have with "Humble Beginnings"? I do find it rather odd, that so many seem eager to add Combat Modifiers to a fresh, new Character, before even deciding what the Character will be; which some choose to just build things, and not even engage in "Combat Progression", which is a totally valid option.

I guess its down to how you play the game. I personally choose what class ill be before starting a playthrough, so I would personally seek out benefits for that class early on.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I guess its down to how you play the game. I personally choose what class ill be before starting a playthrough, so I would personally seek out benefits for that class early on.

I think that's a very valid way to approach the game, especially in 1.4.3.6. where progression has many more avenues.

I always seem to post this image as a reminder, but you can pretty much obtain a Mage Starter Set, just by engaging in Township Activities, Fishing, and NPC Happiness [with little to no Combat].

What a number of players seem thirsty for, is literally in the game already...

 

[Xylia]

One thing I'd like to add here as well, is that I think examining Terraria in a vacuum is a mistake, because that simply doesn't apply to actual gameplay, ever. Is Wooden Armor abysmal? You could make an argument for that, sure... but rarely is Wooden Armor alone in its use to the Player, a real playthrough would look more like this:

• any Wooden Armor [2+1]
• Shackle Accessory [+1], with a possible Modifier.
• Step Stool, with possible Modifier.

All the Player would need is a Armored Modifier on any of these two easy-to-obtain Accessories, and their defense would be six [6].

The problem with this mentality, is that the same could be said for any armor.

Sure, you could wear a Warding Shackle and get 6 Defense, and get 3 more from Wood Armor.

Or, you know, you could wear that same Warding Shackle with Cactus Armor and get the same 9 Defense, PLUS the Cactus Effect.

Or, you could wear that same Warding Shackle with a suit of Silver Armor and get EIGHTEEN Defense.

Saying "But you could also wear X!" is silly, because you can do that with any armor.

The point to be made here, is that armors with pretty much zero stats or interesting features are just boring. Now, ok, maybe diving full-on into classes might not be the answer, but I think the point I was trying to make those years ago is that armor with actual stats beyond abysmal defense are more fun and interesting and are more worth using. When an armor takes more to make than what you get out of wearing it, then people will usually skip using it altogether because... why would you?

Can you honestly tell me that you ever started a playthrough and go "Hmm, I think for this run, I want to go make a set of tin armor"? Of course not, it would take you 30+ minutes to get all that tin to make that armor, and instead of going after tin, you could instead go after silver and get the silver armor, which you'd probably eventually end up doing anyhow.

Or you'll get enough hearts and kill EoC without wearing any armor at all.

When literally using *NO* armor is more attractive than taking time to make something that gives almost zero benefit (because it saves you time/effort), you know you have a problem.

EDIT: Actually, Warding accessories are a point to be made on how armors with no features on them are even more silly than they appear at first.

Let's say you have a Warding Shackle, and an Armored anything else. That's +8 Defense. So, you're taking 4 less damage from anything that hits you in Classic Mode. Then you go out and you make Wood Armor. Ooo, now you have 11 Defense and you're taking .... 5 less damage. Whoop-de-doo. There's not really any point in making that Wood Armor, even moreso after you have some accessories with Defense on them. Your accessories literally give more armor than your actual armor. And again... why make Wood Armor when Cactus Armor exists?

Especially since that wood could be put to better uses, like torches, building houses, platforms, etc?

Same defense, but again, Cactus Armor has an actual set bonus beyond +1 defense. And that's the whole point of the thread, yet again, is that armors that have almost zero defense with no set bonuses are boring and nigh-useless. Stick a set bonus on them that's helpful in early game and suddenly, the armor is more attractive to wear and actually use.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

The problem with this mentality, is that the same could be said for any armor.

Well yeah... that's kinda the point. At a certain "Level", this philosophy applies to nearly everything in the game, because I can assure you that in Journey Mode, with no additional setting changes, wearing Armor is even less necessary; and I'm talkin' Iron/ Lead. Whereas if we were considering something more in-line with Master Mode, FTW, you take all the GD help you can get!

Before I continue though, I think we should clear up a few things; just for the sake of perspective. Here are some gaming terms:

1. Power Creep.
2. Equitable Mechanics
3. Risk, Reward.

Keep these terms in mind as I address many of your points, because I think Players often make the mistake of manufacturing issues in places they don't exist in-game [save for Power Creep].

Sure, you could wear a Warding Shackle and get 6 Defense, and get 3 more from Wood Armor...Or, you know, you could wear that same Warding Shackle with Cactus Armor and get the same 9 Defense, PLUS the Cactus Effect.

Risk & Reward: Of course! This only makes sense because there's practically no risk to making things out of Wood, to include an Armor set, from a material you're already using; whereas Cactus is a bit more risky to obtain, and the threat level for obtaining it can vary in different ways.

• depending on how far your Desert is from Spawn/ Base.
• whether of not your Desert has Surface-Dwelling Antlion-type Enemies.
• Cactus must now be chopped, similar to Trees [1.4].
• whether or not your World Seed has mechanics from The Constant.
• whether or not a Sandstrom is happening, or will happen.
• Desert Enemies/ difficulty.

None of these risks exist when obtaining Standard Wooden Armor, in most cases.

Or, you could wear that same Warding Shackle with a suit of Silver Armor and get EIGHTEEN Defense...Saying "But you could also wear X!" is silly, because you can do that with any armor.

Equitable Mechanics: Yes, some mechanics only exist for the sake of consistency, because Players would be confused about why such-and-such mechanics works here, but not there [Pearlwood Armor], however, there are some instances of Power Creep that also exist, but let's tackle one issue at a time.

I'm sure that it goes without saying, why it is that Silver Armor gives a better Defensive Bonus than Wooden Armor does, but for the sake of clarity, time, resources, value, and availability all play a factor; keep in mind I didn't even address Combat just yet, of which Silver Tier'd Weapons do pretty much the same thing.

"You can also wear X with Y..." isn't a strange concept, this is exactly why items such as Worm Scarf and Shield of Cthulhu are considered "S Tier", they simply accumulate in effectiveness as the Players access to resources increase, I don't see how this is silly...

The point to be made here, is that armors with pretty much zero stats or interesting features are just boring...armor with actual stats beyond abysmal defense are more fun and interesting and are more worth using. When an armor takes more to make than what you get out of wearing it, then people will usually skip using it altogether because... why would you?

Power Creep: This I agree, is probably your real issue. Terraria is unfortunately filled-to-the-brim with Power Creep, but that's just a consequence of supporting any game for 10+ years, it happens to the best of 'em and is sadly unavoidable [Popular Card Games, World of Warcraft, Super Smash Bros Series (Season 2 pillage), Tekken 7, Dragonball FighterZ, etc].

All I can say here, is that Terraria fortunately handles it's Power Creep much better than most other games. One reason being that a majority of resources and Ores have multiple purposes, so something like Tin and Copper aren't limited to Combat and Combat Related progression; which also leads to Resource Management, whereas crafting a Copper or Tin Watch, might be more desirable than using up Gold or Platinum Ore, depending on the circumstances.

Because there are quite a few mechanics at play here, this obvious Power Creep can easily be seen as "Equitable Mechanics" at play, though we both have the luxury or tenure to know better...

Can you honestly tell me that you ever started a playthrough and go "Hmm, I think for this run, I want to go make a set of tin armor"? Of course not, it would take you 30+ minutes to get all that tin to make that armor...

I see where you're going with this, but as a Builder, I can't agree with you here. Going through the trouble of collecting Tin or Copper Ore [which sometimes appears on the surface, readily available, and sometimes inside of Slimes], relates to your goals [Tin Plating Wall is pretty attractive]. If by some chance I have enough to make both Armor and a Watch, I don't see the reason not to.

When literally using *NO* armor is more attractive than taking time to make something that gives almost zero benefit (because it saves you time/effort), you know you have a problem.

This could be Power Creep or simply Equitable Mechanics at play (I honestly couldn't say), but neither is egregious enough to justify an "overhaul" of some kind. If these Craftable Items can be ignored, then ignore them, their use isn't limited to Combat Mechanics, and likely exist for the same reason Pearlwood Armor exists.

EDIT: Actually, Warding accessories are a point to be made on how armors with no features on them are even more silly than they appear at first...Especially since that wood could be put to better uses, like torches, building houses, platforms, etc?

Well now you're just addressing Player Choice and Consequence, which I think, might be outside the scope of this specific discussion.

 

[Xylia]

I feel that you're completely missing the point.

There's nothing wrong with adding small set bonuses onto early-game armors that are only "good" for awhile (I use Armor Pen because that's an easy way to go, but there are surely others one can think of).

My earlier example in the thread of adding, say, "Ranged Attacks Ignore 4 Defense" to Wood Armor would make Wood Armor more attractive to use. Heck, some players might choose wood armor over silver if they feel confident in their abilities to avoid taking too much damage in favor of getting extra damage.

But yet it isn't really Power Creep because, seriously, how far into the game is 4 Armor Pen on ranged attacks going to be that useful? Not very far; the 3 defense will start to really hurt much past EoC for most players and they are going to want more defense. But yet, before you get to EoW/BoC, that 4 Armor Pen will help smooth out killing stuff like skeletons in the caves and/or it would make Wood Armor useful against the EoC.

As for Copper/Tin and Iron/Lead armors, you could do stuff like Armor Pen for Melee Attacks, or maybe you could do something like "Increases Maximum Health by 20", again, useful early-game, maybe useful up to EoW/BoC, but much beyond that, the 20 health isn't going to be too terribly useful to you, and again, would not add to Power Creep much, if at all.

It would, however, make such armors more interesting to use and perhaps even present a choice to the players as to what they would like to get and use.

Also, earlier you mention Risk vs Reward, but you somehow forgot Effort vs Reward which is just as important. Going back to your example of getting tin plate for building with, I would wager plenty of players don't worry overmuch about aesthetics early-game: their focus is more getting their character more functional to make getting stuff like aesthetics faster and easier.

You could either:

1). Skip all the tin and copper ores in favor of searching for underground houses, iron/lead (if you plan on making a railway, skip it otherwise), gold/platinum (to get your first pickaxe and to make your watch), and silver/tungsten (likely your first suit of armor beyond cactus), and then once you get these, go after your tin/copper if you wish to build out of that.

2). Spend 2x the gametime trying to actively mine tin and copper now, instead of waiting until you have a gold/platinum pickaxe and other equipment, and make the armor "if you happen to have enough" (which actually goes against your goal of getting said copper and tin to build with).

If you want to build with copper or tin, why would you want to waste 144 copper/tin bricks/plates (or 576 wall panels!) worth of copper/tin ore on a suit of armor that only decreases your damage taken by 3 and does nothing else?

That makes no sense. You'd think that if your intention was to build with copper/tin, that you would use your copper/tin for, you know, building, and make your armor out of something a little better? I've probably done at least two dozen, probably nearing three dozen playthroughs and I've found that in terms of effort vs reward and also luck, Silver is usually (not always) the sweet spot with ore armors, Pre-EoC.

Gold and Platinum make better armor, but it is rare I get enough of it to actually make a suit of armor before I get enough Silver/Tungsten, and there's also the fact that the first 12 bars goes into a pickaxe, and the 2nd 10 bars goes into a watch (since I will be combining that with a compass/depth meter later anyhow) and the defense difference between Silver/Tungsten and Gold/Platinum are not usually enough for me to care, especially when the biome boss is not too terribly difficult and you get far superior armor, even Shadow Armor is way better in every way.

And also, I don't get why you are mentioning Journey mode when this whole thread we've been talking about Classic Mode and the discussion was more turned towards people who are either entirely new to the game, or mostly new to the game. Said people are not going to be playing Master Mode most likely, so mentioning that is kinda off-topic too.

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

Just for the sake of perspective, I'll be replying to some of your comments out of their original order.

And also, I don't get why you are mentioning Journey mode when this whole thread we've been talking about Classic Mode and the discussion was more turned towards people who are either entirely new to the game, or mostly new to the game. Said people are not going to be playing Master Mode most likely, so mentioning that is kinda off-topic too.

...assuming that the newer Player isn't using a guide, then everything we're discussing here is of little consequence, because they won't be privy to skips and any metagaming strats, or insider knowledge until after-the-fact. Armor simply serving the purpose of a small boost to defense is more-than-sufficient, and we've already discussed why that is...

I feel that you're completely missing the point...There's nothing wrong with adding small set bonuses onto early-game armors that are only "good" for awhile (I use Armor Pen because that's an easy way to go, but there are surely others one can think of).

I would hope that I'm not missing the point, but if you're suggesting that items like Magic Hat, Mystic Robe, Flinx Set and Cactus Armor should be littered everywhere, I'd disagree; we already have quite a few already, and Accessories mostly do a decent job of this.

There's plenty of times it made sense to equip a mostly useless Accessory, simply because it had a Warding Modifier. This mechanic already exists and I don't really see a meaningful reason to retread water. As I addressed much earlier as well, introducing the Player to Classes nearer to Hardmode, makes much more sense. There's really no reason to min-max in pre-Hardmode, espcially if... again, we're discussing a newer Player.

My earlier example in the thread of adding, say, "Ranged Attacks Ignore 4 Defense" to Wood Armor would make Wood Armor more attractive to use. Heck, some players might choose wood armor over silver if they feel confident in their abilities to avoid taking too much damage in favor of getting extra damage.

A newer Player would just equip it, and it'd serve its intended purpose. I don't see a reason to create any "Progression Bias", or flood the Player with newer information that isn't really necessary at that point in the game, there aren't any obstacles or threats that would warrant this level of Metagaming yet.

But yet it isn't really Power Creep because, seriously, how far into the game is 4 Armor Pen on ranged attacks going to be that useful?

Exactly... so why bother adding it in the first place, and creating problems that didn't exist before?

As for Copper/Tin and Iron/Lead armors, you could do stuff like Armor Pen for Melee Attacks, or maybe you could do something like "Increases Maximum Health by 20", again, useful early-game, maybe useful up to EoW/BoC, but much beyond that, the 20 health isn't going to be too terribly useful to you, and again, would not add to Power Creep much, if at all.

...or, you can just not add it at all, and keep the game reasonably balanced, as is in it's current state; either way, a newer Player wouldn't even know to look for this stuff, because Stat Increases make the ears perk up, which is equivalent to a "special moment". I think that your veteran bias is reading too much into a fairly simple principle.

"If everything was special, then nothing would be special."

It would, however, make such armors more interesting to use and perhaps even present a choice to the players as to what they would like to get and use.

Player choice already exists in other areas of the game already, and they're quite complex. I don't see a legitimate reason to add more complexity, especially when it won't add much value to what already exists.

• should I go left?
• should I go right?
• should I dig down?
• should I build a house?
• should I...

...and that's assuming the Player is new, this list obviously expands much farther if the Player is experienced.

Also, earlier you mention Risk vs Reward, but you somehow forgot Effort vs Reward which is just as important. Going back to your example of getting tin plate for building with, I would wager plenty of players don't worry overmuch about aesthetics early-game: their focus is more getting their character more functional to make getting stuff like aesthetics faster and easier.

Well... I can assure you, doing a playthrough with over three different types of People, this assessment would be incorrect.

Spoiler: Vanity, all the Vanity plz!

You could either:

1). Skip all the tin and copper ores in favor of searching for underground houses, iron/lead (if you plan on making a railway, skip it otherwise), gold/platinum (to get your first pickaxe and to make your watch), and silver/tungsten (likely your first suit of armor beyond cactus), and then once you get these, go after your tin/copper if you wish to build out of that.

2). Spend 2x the gametime trying to actively mine tin and copper now, instead of waiting until you have a gold/platinum pickaxe and other equipment, and make the armor "if you happen to have enough" (which actually goes against your goal of getting said copper and tin to build with).

...or you could just use Bombs, which, depending on how you're choosing to progress, are free.

• Bomb Fish
• Scarab Bombs
• Dynamite [Treasure Boxes]

If you want to build with copper or tin, why would you want to waste 144 copper/tin bricks/plates (or 576 wall panels!) worth of copper/tin ore on a suit of armor that only decreases your damage taken by 3 and does nothing else?

Why waste Bones to build a Piano, or why spend obnoxious amounts of Gold on Vanity Sets, Pets, Paintings, and Wall Paper, that don't do anything? "I don't know, you'd have to ask the Players who love doing this stuff, of which I know many."

That makes no sense. You'd think that if your intention was to build with copper/tin, that you would use your copper/tin for, you know, building, and make your armor out of something a little better? I've probably done at least two dozen, probably nearing three dozen playthroughs and I've found that in terms of effort vs reward and also luck, Silver is usually (not always) the sweet spot with ore armors, Pre-EoC.

Though I agree with you, we're discussing a newer Player, who won't know about anything you're talking about right now.

Gold and Platinum make better armor, but it is rare I get enough of it to actually make a suit of armor before I get enough Silver/Tungsten, and there's also the fact that the first 12 bars goes into a pickaxe, and the 2nd 10 bars goes into a watch (since I will be combining that with a compass/depth meter later anyhow) and the defense difference between Silver/Tungsten and Gold/Platinum are not usually enough for me to care, especially when the biome boss is not too terribly difficult and you get far superior armor, even Shadow Armor is way better in every way.

This is your playstyle, this isn't universal. To keep it simple, keep in mind that Flinx Set is Gold Tier'd Armor.

 

[Yreorel]

Cactus Armor

Cactus armor didn't exist in 1.1, I don't know the new player meta in subsequent versions because by 1.2 I was already rushing EoW (platform) or BoC (bed glitch) straight from spawn.

 

[TMB50]

I have to say, that looking back at my first experience, I remember finding copper armor quite underwhelming, and ever since then, I didn't find any point whatsoever on getting less than Shadow/Crimson Armor.
As for the wood armors, I consider that each different wooden armor should have a different set. This would both make them all a tad more useful, and even within each other would mean that World Evil wood armor isn't the best (barring Pearlwood but that's Hardmode). Ideally, the World Evils should get the armor penetration on the grounds of not just having the most dangerous pre-HM surface mobs. The likes of Rich Mahogany and Boreal Wood should, however, have bonuses more ventered on tanking less damage and fleeing more easily (like increased mercy invincibility time).
Similarly, ore armor sets shouldn't be purely extra defense, specially the lower tiers which, as already explained, are usually much more trouble than they're worth, generally being inferior to Silver/Gold armor with nothing in their favor as far as obtaining them goes (you're easily best off just getting a gold pick, breaking a Shadow Orb, and waiting for a meteorite to land to get Meteor Armor).

 

[SkyanUltra]

Spoiler: Toxophilite (Quoted Messages)

This post is obviously old, so I think it'd be completely unfair to judge the content here by today's standards, as of 1.4.3.6.

That being the case, I think this post would likely benefit more from perspective, instead of a critique, seeing as how perspective can be neutral. One of the mistakes that I think many Terrarians make, is getting caught up in the "Class Wars", in short, this describes a point-of-view in which players believe that the optional Classes in the game play a vital role in the greater whole of it's overall theme [which is far from the truth].

This isn't my opinion by the way, as I'd like to remind everyone here, it's more-than-possible to beat Terraria by strictly using Mechanisms, Bolder Traps, and other Class avoidant features, without using a single Weapon.

If anything, Classes in Terraria are the sprinkles on top of an already tasty Ice Cream Bowl, it doesn't need them to exist, and it's identity wouldn't be the least compromised had the feature been replaced with a different system entirely. This game doesn't quite depend on a Class System to define the identity of the Player, in the same manner as something like Morrowind, Skyrim, Fallout: New Vegas, or Final Fantasy VII.

In truth, Terraria could've easily went with Architypes, in a similar manner to a Fighting Game and gotten similar results. Just make each "type" of playstyle "feel different", and it would of course make the game a bit more entertaining. Would this contain the "essence" of what Terraria is? "No, it couldn't possibly... because then you'd have to ask the same question about a similar game, Minecraft, in which the answer would be a definite NO!"

---

The point here is, a "Class-focused-Mod" couldn't possibly teach Terraria anything about itself, it's simply not possible. Could it make some interesting and unique changes, that could possibly improve that specific feature of the game [Classes], of course it could; I'm sure there's Mods out there that already have!

One thing I'd like to add here as well, is that I think examining Terraria in a vacuum is a mistake, because that simply doesn't apply to actual gameplay, ever. Is Wooden Armor abysmal? You could make an argument for that, sure... but rarely is Wooden Armor alone in its use to the Player, a real playthrough would look more like this:

• any Wooden Armor [2+1]
• Shackle Accessory [+1], with a possible Modifier.
• Step Stool, with possible Modifier.

All the Player would need is a Armored Modifier on any of these two easy-to-obtain Accessories, and their defense would be six [6].

---

Also, what's with the distain Terrarians seem to have with "Humble Beginnings"? I do find it rather odd, that so many seem eager to add Combat Modifiers to a fresh, new Character, before even deciding what the Character will be; which some choose to just build things, and not even engage in "Combat Progression", which is a totally valid option.

I think it's fine to be introduced to newer mechanics as you progress [i.e. Class Emblems], less-is-more is still a valid design choice... just in case people've forgotten.

Just for the sake of perspective, I'll be replying to some of your comments out of their original order.


...assuming that the newer Player isn't using a guide, then everything we're discussing here is of little consequence, because they won't be privy to skips and any metagaming strats, or insider knowledge until after-the-fact. Armor simply serving the purpose of a small boost to defense is more-than-sufficient, and we've already discussed why that is...

I would hope that I'm not missing the point, but if you're suggesting that items like Magic Hat, Mystic Robe, Flinx Set and Cactus Armor should be littered everywhere, I'd disagree; we already have quite a few already, and Accessories mostly do a decent job of this.

There's plenty of times it made sense to equip a mostly useless Accessory, simply because it had a Warding Modifier. This mechanic already exists and I don't really see a meaningful reason to retread water. As I addressed much earlier as well, introducing the Player to Classes nearer to Hardmode, makes much more sense. There's really no reason to min-max in pre-Hardmode, espcially if... again, we're discussing a newer Player.


A newer Player would just equip it, and it'd serve its intended purpose. I don't see a reason to create any "Progression Bias", or flood the Player with newer information that isn't really necessary at that point in the game, there aren't any obstacles or threats that would warrant this level of Metagaming yet.


Exactly... so why bother adding it in the first place, and creating problems that didn't exist before?


...or, you can just not add it at all, and keep the game reasonably balanced, as is in it's current state; either way, a newer Player wouldn't even know to look for this stuff, because Stat Increases make the ears perk up, which is equivalent to a "special moment". I think that your veteran bias is reading too much into a fairly simple principle.

"If everything was special, then nothing would be special."


Player choice already exists in other areas of the game already, and they're quite complex. I don't see a legitimate reason to add more complexity, especially when it won't add much value to what already exists.

• should I go left?
• should I go right?
• should I dig down?
• should I build a house?
• should I...

...and that's assuming the Player is new, this list obviously expands much farther if the Player is experienced.


Well... I can assure you, doing a playthrough with over three different types of People, this assessment would be incorrect.

Spoiler: Vanity, all the Vanity plz!

View attachment 381855

...or you could just use Bombs, which, depending on how you're choosing to progress, are free.

• Bomb Fish
• Scarab Bombs
• Dynamite [Treasure Boxes]

Why waste Bones to build a Piano, or why spend obnoxious amounts of Gold on Vanity Sets, Pets, Paintings, and Wall Paper, that don't do anything? "I don't know, you'd have to ask the Players who love doing this stuff, of which I know many."


Though I agree with you, we're discussing a newer Player, who won't know about anything you're talking about right now.


This is your playstyle, this isn't universal. To keep it simple, keep in mind that Flinx Set is Gold Tier'd Armor.

Yeah, I've got a couple hours to kill to talk about Terraria, let's do it.

You have a point, that classes don't really have too much of an effect on gameplay. Sure, you can beat the game without any form of "class" damage by using true weapons which have NO classified damage (eg. boulders, traps, cannons). You could argue that classes are arbitrary because of how certain items have constantly had their class damage be changed, such as the Starfury, going between Melee and Magic for a time, and the (god rest their soul) Throwing and Ranged weapons. (knives, shurikens, etc...) Hell, you could even argue that Terraria was never MEANT to be played with classes, considering how they weren't present in the base game back in 1.0!

But games change, and that statement is especially true over the course of 11 years.

---

So, let's get started here...

Spoiler: Main Arguments

In truth, Terraria could've easily went with Architypes, in a similar manner to a Fighting Game and gotten similar results. Just make each "type" of playstyle "feel different", and it would of course make the game a bit more entertaining. Would this contain the "essence" of what Terraria is? "No, it couldn't possibly... because then you'd have to ask the same question about a similar game, Minecraft, in which the answer would be a definite NO!"

Classes ARE archetypes, literally. They're there to give you a type of playstyle, which feels different from other classes to focus on, and spec into. They exist to give the player something to focus into.

You like melee? Grab some swords and big plated armor and swing like wild.
You like ranged? Grab a gun and play out your rambo-esque fantasies.
You like magic? Grab some fancy robes and a staff and begin chanting your magic spells.
You like summoner? Grab some fancier robes and a whip and start roleplaying your favorite Castlevania game.

While they may not be the main focus of the game, it's absolutely a central mechanic that the game focuses on.

The point here is, a "Class-focused-Mod" couldn't possibly teach Terraria anything about itself, it's simply not possible. Could it make some interesting and unique changes, that could possibly improve that specific feature of the game [Classes], of course it could; I'm sure there's Mods out there that already have!

Just because a mod focuses on a specific aspect of the game, doesn't mean it can't focus on every other aspect. Thorium adds new class based content, yes; that is the mod's MAIN focus. However, the mod also focuses on expanding the entire game, more notably the early game, which is the main topic at hand here.

What Thorium teaches the common Terrarian about Terraria, is that the Pre-Hardmode stage of the game is very limited in it's content. This isn't a bad thing; Terraria is one of THE most popular games, so clearly it isn't a glaring issue. However, Thorium provides you with tons of new content and new bosses to fight during this stage, along with granting you tons of new options which are fun and viable. Like @Xylia said...

... so many options. Early game isn't so boring now, it actually feels more like the rest of the game, especially post-hardmode where you have all of these options as to what to use.

... Just because some of that content is class-focused doesn't mean that Terraria needs more class-focused content in Pre-Hardmode; It just means it needs more content in Pre-Hardmode.

So yes...

I would hope that I'm not missing the point, but if you're suggesting that items like Magic Hat, Mystic Robe, Flinx Set and Cactus Armor should be littered everywhere, I'd disagree...

You did miss the point. Around this point you kind of go off and talk about how accessories exist after this, but i'll get to those misc. arguments later. They don't apply to the main topic at hand here, so i'll save them for last.

Also, what's with the distain Terrarians seem to have with "Humble Beginnings"? I do find it rather odd, that so many seem eager to add Combat Modifiers to a fresh, new Character, before even deciding what the Character will be; which some choose to just build things, and not even engage in "Combat Progression", which is a totally valid option.

Correct me if i'm wrong here, but Combat Modifiers? I think what you meant here was Combat Items. Regardless, the reason people are eager to get said items is because we want to play the game we want to. Seriously!

Some just choose to build things, yeah. But some also choose to Explore! Mine! Fight! If you want to build, that's fine... But most people play Terraria to build up to that inevitable Moon Lord fight, not to mention the ever-so-elusive GRIND! If there's one thing that's kept me attatched to this game for over 8 years now, it's been exactly that.

Having new content for Pre-Hardmode quite literally is a plus for everyone, even if it may end up a bit one-sided. Players get new items to mess with, which means players have much more to discover, which means more potential viable options for weapons, armor, etc! But that new content doesn't always just include new weapons and armor. That new equipment almost always follows with tons of new building blocks, furniture, new tools, and plenty more for builders to explore, which I should mention, Thorium also does!

It has plenty of new equipment to spice up the early game, but it also introduces entire new areas of the game, along with plenty of new materials to craft into tons of different furniture. The same Thorium ore that @Xylia mentions is also an ore that can be turned into new bricks, and new furniture! They have a whole deep sea set, both armor and building wise for a whole new aquatic biome that the mod adds!

Sure, we may not be talking about the building blocks. But that's not the focus here; we're talking about progressing through the game, and playing through the game how most people end up doing, because this isn't just a problem that affects the people who enjoy the game for it's big scary boss fights. It's a problem for the builders, the explorers, and the fishers! (Okay, well maybe not as much... They'll live just fine off their tons of goated accessories and good weapons.) Because it's part of your PRIMARY progression that you need to follow eventually to beat the game! Unless you're planning on staying in Pre-Hardmode, you have to beat Wall of Flesh eventually, and move on to Hardmode.

I think it's fine to be introduced to newer mechanics as you progress [i.e. Class Emblems], less-is-more is still a valid design choice... just in case people've forgotten.

And that's perfectly fine. But in the same breath, newer mechanics to bosses you've already fought? Newer content to discover in places you've already been to? It opens up a whole new world for veterans of the game to explore and dig their teeth into, while granting newer players a refined experience to play for themselves!

Less-is-more will always be a valid design choice. But there will always be those looking for something new. You could argue "that's what mods are for!" And you'd be right. But at the same time, a game shouldn't need to rely on it's modding scene to live on. At that point, the base game is dead, and the only thing truly alive are people's new reanimated corpses of that game. In other words, Necromancy!

"If everything was special, then nothing would be special."

Sure, but is this not just Hardmode in a nutshell? Y'know, stat increases everywhere and all that?

... introducing the Player to Classes nearer to Hardmode, makes much more sense. There's really no reason to min-max in pre-Hardmode...

Oh, nevermind.

That aside, just because there'd be stat-based armor everywhere does NOT mean that they wouldn't be special. Sure, you don't NEED to min-max in pre-Hardmode, but having the option is always nice for those playing on those higher difficulties. Not to mention, for players wanting to focus on something in early game, it makes for a great entry to class setups! Regardless, all of them would still have their own niche, no matter what. Mixing armor is always an option!

Player choice already exists in other areas of the game already, and they're quite complex. I don't see a legitimate reason to add more complexity, especially when it won't add much value to what already exists.

• should I go left?
• should I go right?
• should I dig down?
• should I build a house?
• should I...

...and that's assuming the Player is new, this list obviously expands much farther if the Player is experienced.

Most of what you list here is absolutely second-nature, even if you aren't experienced. The "complexity" being added here is quite literally just loot. A player who finds said new loot will probably check it out for a bit before deciding if they want to run said equipment, and if they don't it'll probably just be sold, tossed on the ground, tossed in a chest, or otherwise.

... so why bother adding it in the first place, and creating problems that didn't exist before?


...or, you can just not add it at all, and keep the game reasonably balanced, as is in it's current state...

And my final argument... Because new content is fun! It's that simple.

Just cause it can cause balancing issues doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Obsidian armor was ENTIRELY reworked in 1.4 into basically a new armor set, and players were able to have fun with an armor set that was turned from a basic armor set that gives just defense and nothing else, to a spunky, fun post-EoW/BoC summoner set focused around whipping your enemies into shape! But can you guess how many balance related issues that caused for such a long time? A whole ton. Sure, it was unbalanced, but it was new content that really fleshed out summoner!

Any same item could be added and completely change how players approach the game, or be just some middle of the road equipment. Regardless, it gives us new stuff to mess with! It's the entire argument i've been making this whole time! The main focus isn't on the balance of the game when adding content, because that comes after in the patch updates. It's to give players a new experience, something with a bit of variety, some new options, something... interesting!

---

Below are misc. arguments that don't really apply to the topic at hand.

Spoiler: Misc. Arguments

One thing I'd like to add here as well, is that I think examining Terraria in a vacuum is a mistake, because that simply doesn't apply to actual gameplay, ever. Is Wooden Armor abysmal? You could make an argument for that, sure... but rarely is Wooden Armor alone in its use to the Player, a real playthrough would look more like this:

• any Wooden Armor [2+1]
• Shackle Accessory [+1], with a possible Modifier.
• Step Stool, with possible Modifier.

All the Player would need is a Armored Modifier on any of these two easy-to-obtain Accessories, and their defense would be six [6].

Yes, no doubt accessories can have modifiers. Incredible! Just cause you can end up with 6 different accessories with warding doesn't mean you will, however. RNG is not a very stable argument for game balance. More realistically, you'll end up maybe getting 2 accessories that give you like +3 defense total, and the rest will probably be like +1% movement speed, 2% melee speed, maybe a Menacing accessory, and some other junk.

Armor simply serving the purpose of a small boost to defense is more-than-sufficient, and we've already discussed why that is...

That armor is looking awfully shoddy now, isn't it? Might wanna get some Gold/Platinum to remedy that awfully low defense...

... assuming that the newer Player isn't using a guide, then everything we're discussing here is of little consequence, because they won't be privy to skips and any metagaming strats, or insider knowledge until after-the-fact.

... a newer Player wouldn't even know to look for this stuff, because Stat Increases make the ears perk up, which is equivalent to a "special moment". I think that your veteran bias is reading too much into a fairly simple principle.

Who'd ever guess that the new player wouldn't know the meta like the back of their hand! "Veteran bias" doesn't really play into anything here either. At the end of the day, this is about filling up some of Pre-Hardmode with items to streamline progression and make it less of a slog. New players would also have their ears perk up by the sound of new content and quality of life, too.

...or you could just use Bombs, which, depending on how you're choosing to progress, are free.

• Bomb Fish
• Scarab Bombs
• Dynamite [Treasure Boxes]

???

This was dropped with little to no context, and I think even if I had context it'd still make no sense. Yeah no, there are different bombs you can use. We aren't talking about bombs though? We're talking equipment???

Why waste Bones to build a Piano, or why spend obnoxious amounts of Gold on Vanity Sets, Pets, Paintings, and Wall Paper, that don't do anything? "I don't know, you'd have to ask the Players who love doing this stuff, of which I know many."

I already talk about this earlier, adding new content won't affect builders in any negative way. More times than not, it gives them more to play with.

---

And that's everything. There's so much to talk about here that as i'm writing this final ending, I'm not even sure if it could even post this, considering how much detail I got into here. It's 7:40 AM for me now, i think I started writing around 5 AM? Time flies, damn. (Sorry in advance for the text wall, by the way... I just didn't have much to do tonight lol. It's all fun n' games anyways! ^^)

In conclusion, and TL;DR: I think that Terraria could learn from Thorium in the way that it could use more new Pre-Hardmode equipment to streamline the early game and to provide more for players to sink their teeth into. The current base game is a bit lacking in terms of unique, fun Pre-Hardmode content anyways, and new content hasn't hurt anybody! (Or atleast, I hope...) The balance of said items always comes second anyways, so why not have a bit of fun with it and add some new stuff for players to mess with, even if it might be pre-1.4.1 Obsidian armor, or Daedalus Stormbow levels of broken?

Anyways, have a nice day! :3

 

[Toxophilite [East]]

I assume most of what was presented in the 1.4.4 Updates, namely the adjustment to Melee Weapons, closes this case... but, just for the sake of closing the book on this subject, I'll add some useful commentary for legacy's sake [in case this topic ever comes up again in the future, though I doubt it].

Classes ARE archetypes, literally. They're there to give you a type of playstyle, which feels different from other classes to focus on, and spec into. They exist to give the player something to focus into.

Yes, but also no. Contextually, Classes are "identifiers", especially in other media, where a character is defined by what they do, or what they're good at doing [i.e. D&D].

For example, in Skyrim, there are several Main Guilds in the game, complete with Quests and Storylines, specifically catered to certain "Classes" and playstyles.

• Mages Guild Quests.
• Thieves Guild Quests.
• Companions Quests.
• Volkihar Clan Quests.
• etc.

The same can be somewhat said for Cyberpunk 2077, which separates "Class" from "Life Path", though the two occasionally intertwine depending on choices made by the player throughout the storyline.

Terraria is way too fluid [especially with the addition of loadouts], for Character Classes to be anything more than "Gameplay Flavor". Your character will never be defined by anything other than what you the player choose them to be.

Just because a mod focuses on a specific aspect of the game, doesn't mean it can't focus on every other aspect. Thorium adds new class based content, yes; that is the mod's MAIN focus. However, the mod also focuses on expanding the entire game, more notably the early game, which is the main topic at hand here.

Early Vanilla game doesn't need any help, especially not now with the 1.4.4 Updates. In fact, there are several "Chapter Ending" tasks and Craftable Items in pre-Hardmode, allowing the player to choose a specific style they want to use, by the time they are ready to Battle the WoF.

• Pylon Network set-up.
• Several Craftable/ Obtainable Accessories [i.e. Frog Gear, Obsidian Set, pre-Hardmode Apprentice Scarf, Bundle of Horseshoe Balloons].
• Adjustment to Legacy Swords with special Characteristics [i.e. Volcano, Muramasa, Evil Swords, etc].
• New Enemies and Bosses [i.e Deepclops].

What Thorium teaches the common Terrarian about Terraria, is that the Pre-Hardmode stage of the game is very limited in it's content. This isn't a bad thing; Terraria is one of THE most popular games, so clearly it isn't a glaring issue. However, Thorium provides you with tons of new content and new bosses to fight during this stage, along with granting you tons of new options which are fun and viable. Like @Xylia said...

I don't agree with this, even 1.4 on initial release was fine, for the most part. It's far from limited.

... Just because some of that content is class-focused doesn't mean that Terraria needs more class-focused content in Pre-Hardmode; It just means it needs more content in Pre-Hardmode.

I mean, if anything I think 1.4.4 executed this pretty well. At a certain point, games become bloated if they keep getting too much new content [World of Warcraft]. With that also comes a bunch of Power Creep and Gaming Fatigue, on the Players side, and the Development Team [who likely want to work on something else new after a while].

Terraria is a HUGE exception to the rule [it didn't escape these pitfalls, it simply survived them], powered by passionate fans, brilliant developers, and TONS of serendipity. These resources, though powerful, are finite. That's why if you pay attention, you'll see that apathy has set in for many Terrarian Fans.

Correct me if i'm wrong here, but Combat Modifiers? I think what you meant here was Combat Items. Regardless, the reason people are eager to get said items is because we want to play the game we want to. Seriously!

"Modifiers" are typically adjustments to Weapons and Accessories that allow small changes to any given Loadout, for example, two players can have the very same Weapons and Armor equipped, but perform differently based on "Modifiers", like "Large" on a Greatsword, or "Warding" vs. "Menacing" on your accessories.

This is why adding attributes to immediately accessible armor sets is pointless and will also create bias. Accessories do a fine job all on their own [and there's no immediate pre-Hardmode Enemies or Bosses that justify Min-Maxing that early on].

Some just choose to build things, yeah. But some also choose to Explore! Mine! Fight! If you want to build, that's fine... But most people play Terraria to build up to that inevitable Moon Lord fight, not to mention the ever-so-elusive GRIND! If there's one thing that's kept me attatched to this game for over 8 years now, it's been exactly that.

Don't forget about Adventure Maps, Player Servers, PvP and of course Modding [which often don't include Moon Lord].

Having new content for Pre-Hardmode quite literally is a plus for everyone, even if it may end up a bit one-sided.

Not necessarily, especially if the newer additions begin to invalidate older, Legacy choices still in the game [i.e. Power Creep]. We have actual proof of how fans will react in real time, no theorizing necessary.

It has plenty of new equipment to spice up the early game, but it also introduces entire new areas of the game, along with plenty of new materials to craft into tons of different furniture. The same Thorium ore that @Xylia mentions is also an ore that can be turned into new bricks, and new furniture! They have a whole deep sea set, both armor and building wise for a whole new aquatic biome that the mod adds!

That's cool and everything, but if these Mods are so "complete" and rich with content, why are so many waiting for them [these Mods] to catch up to first, 1.4, 1.4.3 and finally 1.4.4? Shouldn't fans just be playing that instead?

If the novelty of "because it's new" is the only drive for this take on Thorium, then it's an unreasonable standard and unsustainable. At a certain point, every game stops getting supported, both by the fans and the Developers. I think it's better to simply make the most "complete" game you can make, and allow the novelty of something being "new", to fall in the laps of those who enjoy such a thing, but it should NEVER be the rule, only the exception [i.e. Skyrim SE, over 70,000 Mods].

Sure, we may not be talking about the building blocks. But that's not the focus here; we're talking about progressing through the game, and playing through the game how most people end up doing, because this isn't just a problem that affects the people who enjoy the game for it's big scary boss fights. It's a problem for the builders, the explorers, and the fishers!

The only way I'd ever agree with this take, is if you can convince me that Thorium Mod and the 1.4.4 additions are anything alike [which I highly doubt]. One is clearly an overhaul, focused on making an already complete package more "refined", the other, like most Mods, is likely the vision of the Original Mod Creator [a fan of the game] and their small team, whose goals rarely match with the Developers.

And that's perfectly fine. But in the same breath, newer mechanics to bosses you've already fought? Newer content to discover in places you've already been to? It opens up a whole new world for veterans of the game to explore and dig their teeth into, while granting newer players a refined experience to play for themselves!

Which is what Expert Mode pretty much did in 1.3, and what Special Seeds pretty much do in 1.4.4 [of which I hear great things about Get Fixed Boi]. If this is simply a case of "yeah, but I want more of it", I'll continue to say the same thing, that's cool and everything, but that's an unreasonable and unsustainable expectation. Every game or Mod will eventually stop being supported at some point.

For the sake of real-life clarity, Skyrim SE is currently sitting at version 1.6.629, however, the most supported and arguably "complete version" of the game is considered to be 1.5.97 [Skyrim community consensus says this, not me btw, though I agree with them]. Why? Well, like I keep mentioning, both Mods and game inevitable stop being supported, version 1.5.97 has more support than any other version of Skyrim in existence, and so, even a community with 70,000+ Mods to choose from understands that there is a limit.

Less-is-more will always be a valid design choice. But there will always be those looking for something new. You could argue "that's what mods are for!" And you'd be right. But at the same time, a game shouldn't need to rely on it's modding scene to live on. At that point, the base game is dead, and the only thing truly alive are people's new reanimated corpses of that game. In other words, Necromancy!

As I said earlier, this is a luxury afforded to us by a VERY unique circumstance, which is the exception, not the rule! Keep in mind, 70,000+ Mods to choose from in Skyrim SE, but even that community knows when to "stop".

That aside, just because there'd be stat-based armor everywhere does NOT mean that they wouldn't be special. Sure, you don't NEED to min-max in pre-Hardmode, but having the option is always nice for those playing on those higher difficulties. Not to mention, for players wanting to focus on something in early game, it makes for a great entry to class setups! Regardless, all of them would still have their own niche, no matter what. Mixing armor is always an option!

This feature already exists in pre-Hardmode, and was improved in 1.4+. Adding more of it is certainly something you could do... but why? Is it because what already exists is lacking, or is it adding more for the sake of it? I'd argue that pre-Hardmode isn't lacking for any content, most Terrarians don't even know half the items or features in the game as it is [see the suggestions thread for numerous examples].

Most of what you list here is absolutely second-nature, even if you aren't experienced. The "complexity" being added here is quite literally just loot. A player who finds said new loot will probably check it out for a bit before deciding if they want to run said equipment, and if they don't it'll probably just be sold, tossed on the ground, tossed in a chest, or otherwise.

Not entirely... this is oftentimes a luxury afforded only to Sandbox/ Open World Games, that promote freedom of choice and freedom of approach. Though it's easy to assume, this isn't the type of game for everyone kind of person, some people do enjoy experiences "on rails", where their need to make a choice is extremely limited.

In addition, Terraria benefits from this design choice greatly, because almost every Map has a unique Seed [Special Seeds included], so those choices are actually critical to what kind of experience the player will have, and heavily strays away from the illusion of simply "not knowing where to go" in other Sandbox Games.

This is also one of the many reasons why some of the more seasoned players request that some items be rare or inaccessible, because that also contributes to the overall experience.

And my final argument... Because new content is fun! It's that simple.

Not always... and there are plenty of cautionary examples of this going the other way, so i won't bother insulting your intelligence. Just do some light research, it won't be too hard to find.

Just cause it can cause balancing issues doesn't mean you shouldn't do it...

I can't agree with this take, it's too obvious to me to bother explaining why, so just... "No"!

Any same item could be added and completely change how players approach the game, or be just some middle of the road equipment. Regardless, it gives us new stuff to mess with! It's the entire argument i've been making this whole time! The main focus isn't on the balance of the game when adding content, because that comes after in the patch updates. It's to give players a new experience, something with a bit of variety, some new options, something... interesting!

Variety is an illusion in a game with poor balancing, this is also a pretty self evident issue that I won't bother getting into. Simply look at the number of balance changes from 1.3.5 to 1.4.4 and that should give you some idea of how important it is to NOT oversaturate your game with "stuff" because "new", it don't quite work like that...

...See you in 1.4.4 [1.5].