WHO WINS? Phantasm, Tsunami or Vortex Beater (Post 1.3.0.4 Phantasm Nerf)

[Dark]

It started with a simple hamachi fight; Who would win? Phantasm or Vortex Beater.
Me: Phantasm. Definitely Phantasm.
Guy: No! Vortex Beater.
Me: Uhh, no. Phantasm has much higher dps.
Guy: I got more DPS on meter with Vortex Beater.
Me: Lol, you want me to make a VIDEO about it?

Then this came out.

Then... Suddently...

A WILD 1.3.0.4 NERF APPEARED!
Phantasm got baaaad. ;-;
But i did the tests, and still better than Vortex Beater. Though Tsunami was now better than it.

Guy: Now with the Phant nerf, Vortex is better!
Me: Wrong. I did the tests, and Phant is STILL better than Vortex. But tsunami is better than Phant now. Phant got 5.2k, Vortex got 2.7k and Tsunami got 6.3k.
Guy: Bro, Tsunami is weaksauce.

I did the tests again and took a print to show him.

Guy: Let me do this...
*5 minutes later*
Guy: The Phantasm had 2k dps, while the Vortex had 3k!

I was about to make a second video, but then i decided to take this to the public.

So, settle this debate once and for all!
Do the DPS tests. This is the setup:

Shroomite Set, with the helmet for the weapon.

- Sniper Scope
- Destroyer Emblem
- Avenger Emblem
- Ranger Emblem
- Celestial Stone

All menacing. Do the tests and vote!

 

[Nardog]

Phantasm nerf was so dumb hopefully reverted soon

 

[Ecna]

I swear the Devs have something against the Ranger class

1. They took the Ranger's highest DPS weapon and nerfed it into the ground

2. It's the only class without a valid form of life regen. Melee gets Vampire Knives, Mage has Spectre Hood/Nebula Armor bonus, and Summoner's hands are free so they get to use Vampire Knives anyway. Meanwhile, Rangers are sitting in the dark.

3. The set bonuses for the best two Ranger armors both suck. Most players play Singleplayer, and when it's PvE you really don't want to be standing in Stealth mode. Even in PvP, this isn't that big of a bonus because your location is still relatively easy to pinpoint.

I've only scratched the surface here.

 

[Snowhusky5]

Is a 14% nerf really that big a deal? It seemed like people thought it was super OP at first and now after a 14% damage reduction it's terrible? What?

 

[Nardog]

Because endgame items shouldn't be nerfed, especially when their fine like the phantasm used to be.

 

[Snowhusky5]

Because endgame items shouldn't be nerfed, especially when their fine like the phantasm used to be.

As I said, I saw a ton of people complaining about it being op compared to other moonlorde loot :/

 

[Stahn Aileron]

Is a 14% nerf really that big a deal? It seemed like people thought it was super OP at first and now after a 14% damage reduction it's terrible? What?

From my understanding (I haven't DL'ed and played the 0.4 update yet), it's not just a raw DMG nerf. The Phantasm's special ability (Auto-Homing Arrows on a target you're consistently hitting with regular arrows) got nerfed from 100% WEAPON DMG to like 15-20 DMG. (Not sure if the homing arrows take into account armor rating or just ignore it.) So in terms of DPS, it got horrendously nerfed compared to its original capabilities.

I would've kept the DMG rating and just nerf the ability to some lower % of weapon(+arrow) dmg and/or retuned the fire rate of the ability.

 

[Nardog]

Phantasm did a lot of damage, but this was balanced out by:

It costs ammo. Melee weapons are free and have the same range at endgame.

You actually had to aim it. Unlike many endgame items it doesn't
home.

 

[HUcast]

You forgot to include the Xenopopper, with chloro bullets that thing gets more dps than the vortex beater.

 

[medagross999]

Slight nitpick. The Phantasm ability is completely nullified against dummies.

 

[Stahn Aileron]

Phantasm did a lot of damage, but this was balanced out by:

It costs ammo. Melee weapons are free and have the same range at endgame.

You actually had to aim it. Unlike many endgame items it doesn't
home.

Ammo cost is moot point for this debate. All weapons mentioned and discussed are ranged/ammo-based. Aiming vs. spray and pray is the main gameplay difference (bows vs. guns).

Slight nitpick. The Phantasm ability is completely nullified against dummies.

Which is something I hope the devs will address in later, non-pressing update. For now, bug fixes get priority, of course. However, it would be nice for in-game test equipment to actually be able to test nearly all aspects of a weapon. The info accessories were a godsend for in-game testing. The Phantasm would just look like a lower, asynchronous version of the Tsunami if a user didn't know about the homing arrows. (i.e. They just shot it at the ground, a wall, into the air, or a test dummy instead of live mobs.)

The Test Dummy should be able to activate some/most special abilities (anything that does extra direct damage) and trigger homing. I say some/most to prevent things like Mages from using Test Dummies as procs for the Nebula Armor and such.

 

[SureKay]

Guy: Now with the Phant nerf, Vortex is better!
Me: Wrong. I did the tests, and Phant is STILL better than Vortex. But tsunami is better than Phant now. Phant got 5.2k, Vortex got 2.7k and Tsunami got 6.3k.
Guy: Bro, Tsunami is weaksauce.

I did the tests again and took a print to show him.

Which clearly states, that the Tsunami is the most powerful bow in existance, leading the other Lunar-event-tier (Which are clearly HIGHER Tier) weapons by +1k DPS. Again, Phantasm was too powerful as it were, but here we have proof that it has been nerfed too hard.

If the "auto-firing" phantasm arrows get nerfed to like 25-ish DMG istead of dealing 100% arrow dmg, then, at the very least, they should have become armor piercing to keep them somewhat useful. As it stands now, they are just not good enough to make a difference in most scenarios.

I rest my case...

 

[Alaron]

The Test Dummy should be able to activate some/most special abilities (anything that does extra direct damage) and trigger homing. I say some/most to prevent things like Mages from using Test Dummies as procs for the Nebula Armor and such.

The devs seem to disagree with you (and me), given that they removed activating Beetle Scale Mail with swordlike weapons on Training Dummies in 1.3.0.4.
I had reported how only my swordlike weapons were working, assuming the others were intended to too.

 

[Stahn Aileron]

The devs seem to disagree with you (and me), given that they removed activating Beetle Scale Mail with swordlike weapons on Training Dummies in 1.3.0.4.
I had reported how only my swordlike weapons were working, assuming the others were intended to too.

Well, I do understand a bit that "balancing" the Test Dummy (odd thing to say...) is kinda tricky. You have to let it display the strength and weaknesses of a weapon (and/or armor set) while at the same time preventing the abuse of Test Dummy as artificial proc multipliers for certain abilities. Some abilities would therefore be disabled when tested with Test Dummies, which then might skew test results. Really, it's kinda "damned if you do, damned if you don't" in a way there.

Anyway, I'm veering off-topic, so time for me to shut up.

 

[NotaVoltorb]

I don't see the point in the nerf, the game is hard enough as it is on expert mode.
The Moonlord was buffed and the Ranger was nerfed. I should have chosen the Melee class

 

[Mille Marteaux]

Phantasm is too weak now? What? I still hit 1k DPS on Warding with Beetle Shell using Endless Quiver.
Phantasm was balanced by costing ammo? Huh? 66% chance to not use ammo with most endgame sets having 20~25% and ammo box granting another 20? Okay then.

Unreal Phantasm was averaging 4.8~5.1k DPS on The Twins. With an Endless Quiver. With Solar Armor and melee damage investment.

Do you know what my other weapons were doing with similar accessories?

Buffs: Well Fed, Tipsy
Legendary Fetid Baghnakhs: 2.7k
Legendary Star Wrath: 2.5k
Godly Solar Eruption: 3.4k Shotgun, 2.6k mid-range
Godly Daybreak: 1.7k +200 with max Burning stacks
Legendary Meowmire: 3.1k in a small room so the cats can continuously bounce

You know what happened when I did full buffs with an Endless Quiver with actual range damage investment? 7k DPS. With Wooden Arrows.
Wooden Arrows.

As much fun as it is to use, this weapon was patently absurd. It outclassed Moon Lord drops at murdering things. Murder isn't even a strong enough word for what this weapon used to do, honestly. Using it was borderline a war crime.

And I loved every second of it.

 

[Dark]

Phantasm nerf was so dumb hopefully reverted soon

I swear the Devs have something against the Ranger class

1. They took the Ranger's highest DPS weapon and nerfed it into the ground

2. It's the only class without a valid form of life regen. Melee gets Vampire Knives, Mage has Spectre Hood/Nebula Armor bonus, and Summoner's hands are free so they get to use Vampire Knives anyway. Meanwhile, Rangers are sitting in the dark.

3. The set bonuses for the best two Ranger armors both suck. Most players play Singleplayer, and when it's PvE you really don't want to be standing in Stealth mode. Even in PvP, this isn't that big of a bonus because your location is still relatively easy to pinpoint.

I've only scratched the surface here.

Is a 14% nerf really that big a deal? It seemed like people thought it was super OP at first and now after a 14% damage reduction it's terrible? What?

Because endgame items shouldn't be nerfed, especially when their fine like the phantasm used to be.

Ammo cost is moot point for this debate. All weapons mentioned and discussed are ranged/ammo-based. Aiming vs. spray and pray is the main gameplay difference (bows vs. guns).



Which is something I hope the devs will address in later, non-pressing update. For now, bug fixes get priority, of course. However, it would be nice for in-game test equipment to actually be able to test nearly all aspects of a weapon. The info accessories were a godsend for in-game testing. The Phantasm would just look like a lower, asynchronous version of the Tsunami if a user didn't know about the homing arrows. (i.e. They just shot it at the ground, a wall, into the air, or a test dummy instead of live mobs.)

The Test Dummy should be able to activate some/most special abilities (anything that does extra direct damage) and trigger homing. I say some/most to prevent things like Mages from using Test Dummies as procs for the Nebula Armor and such.

Which clearly states, that the Tsunami is the most powerful bow in existance, leading the other Lunar-event-tier (Which are clearly HIGHER Tier) weapons by +1k DPS. Again, Phantasm was too powerful as it were, but here we have proof that it has been nerfed too hard.

If the "auto-firing" phantasm arrows get nerfed to like 25-ish DMG istead of dealing 100% arrow dmg, then, at the very least, they should have become armor piercing to keep them somewhat useful. As it stands now, they are just not good enough to make a difference in most scenarios.

I rest my case...

The devs seem to disagree with you (and me), given that they removed activating Beetle Scale Mail with swordlike weapons on Training Dummies in 1.3.0.4.
I had reported how only my swordlike weapons were working, assuming the others were intended to too.

Well, I do understand a bit that "balancing" the Test Dummy (odd thing to say...) is kinda tricky. You have to let it display the strength and weaknesses of a weapon (and/or armor set) while at the same time preventing the abuse of Test Dummy as artificial proc multipliers for certain abilities. Some abilities would therefore be disabled when tested with Test Dummies, which then might skew test results. Really, it's kinda "damned if you do, damned if you don't" in a way there.

Anyway, I'm veering off-topic, so time for me to shut up.

I don't see the point in the nerf, the game is hard enough as it is on expert mode.
The Moonlord was buffed and the Ranger was nerfed. I should have chosen the Melee class

Phantasm is too weak now? What? I still hit 1k DPS on Warding with Beetle Shell using Endless Quiver.
Phantasm was balanced by costing ammo? Huh? 66% chance to not use ammo with most endgame sets having 20~25% and ammo box granting another 20? Okay then.

Unreal Phantasm was averaging 4.8~5.1k DPS on The Twins. With an Endless Quiver. With Solar Armor and melee damage investment.

Do you know what my other weapons were doing with similar accessories?

Buffs: Well Fed, Tipsy
Legendary Fetid Baghnakhs: 2.7k
Legendary Star Wrath: 2.5k
Godly Solar Eruption: 3.4k Shotgun, 2.6k mid-range
Godly Daybreak: 1.7k +200 with max Burning stacks
Legendary Meowmire: 3.1k in a small room so the cats can continuously bounce

You know what happened when I did full buffs with an Endless Quiver with actual range damage investment? 7k DPS. With Wooden Arrows.
Wooden Arrows.

As much fun as it is to use, this weapon was patently absurd. It outclassed Moon Lord drops at murdering things. Murder isn't even a strong enough word for what this weapon used to do, honestly. Using it was borderline a war crime.

And I loved every second of it.

wow, is it even legal to quote that many messages in a single reply?

I saw plenty of people's opinions on this, and lemme give mine.

The Phantasm nerf was deserved, since the weapon was becoming too op. I don't think anyone disagrees. But i also think the nerf was too big, which is the problem. The -10 dmg part wasn't that big of a deal, sure. But the homing arrows part was a little too much. Now they do ~20 damage, which can then be negated by anything with more than 10 defense. And considering you get this weapon endgame, EVERYTHING is gonna have more than 10 defense. In my opinion, they should be buffed to ~30 or 40 damage and penetrate armor, or anything, because it's not logical for the Phantasm to be worse in DPS than the Tsunami. Not everyone got it worse, but i did at least, and some other people did.

So yeah, IMO the phantasm should be buffed, but NOT to the state it was before.

 

[Menegoroth]

Yeah, it can't be that hard to change it to a normal balanced endgame weapon ...

 

[SureKay]

wow, is it even legal to quote that many messages in a single reply?

I saw plenty of people's opinions on this, and lemme give mine.

The Phantasm nerf was deserved, since the weapon was becoming too op. I don't think anyone disagrees. But i also think the nerf was too big, which is the problem. The -10 dmg part wasn't that big of a deal, sure. But the homing arrows part was a little too much. Now they do ~20 damage, which can then be negated by anything with more than 10 defense. And considering you get this weapon endgame, EVERYTHING is gonna have more than 10 defense. In my opinion, they should be buffed to ~30 or 40 damage and penetrate armor, or anything, because it's not logical for the Phantasm to be worse in DPS than the Tsunami. Not everyone got it worse, but i did at least, and some other people did.

So yeah, IMO the phantasm should be buffed, but NOT to the state it was before.

So, there are some options here to get that thing back on track.

-1) Reduce its base damage even further but give the additional arrows 100% dmg to keep it at least on par with the tsunami. This method, in my opinion, matches the bow's theme and ecourages the use of higher quality ammunition, which is also synergizing with the Phantasm's reduced ammo consumption, which makes it unique among the arrow based weapons. I do not dare to throw numbers out here, but I do not have a test server either.

-2) Change the additional arrow's mechanics in such a way that they become more than a visual gimmick (Which they pretty much are at this point), that could involve 100% armor piercing, higher base dmg, an armour reducing debuff, a significantly higher crit multiplier (If codeable), just something that makes them worthwhile.

-3) Further increase the bow's attack speed, thus making the lower dmg of the additional arrows more frequent and more noticeable as a result.

If anybody has more ideas, I think this a good place to discuss them.

 

[Soulstiger]

I like number 1 Lower base damage might throw some people off, but I agree it stays truest to the bows original design.