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Why is torch luck a mechanic?

GooGroker

Terrarian

Of all of the brilliant things which 1.4 has added to the game, one mechanic stands out as an utterly inexplicable design choice. For those unaware, the new biome-themed torches aren't just decorative. If you use regular torches in certain biomes instead of them, enemies have reduced drop rates. I cannot fathom a single justification for this bizzaire and completely unnessecary addition, nor for the fact that it's a completely hidden mechanic with huge ramifications on gameplay, especially the early hardmode period of farming souls.

I know I'm just a single player out of millions, and I'm not getting this removed on my own, but I would at least like a single good reason from anybody why this was added, and what it adds to the gameplay experience, aside from crippling players who simply aren't aware of its existence.
 

Greybrynn

The Destroyer

Of all of the brilliant things which 1.4 has added to the game, one mechanic stands out as an utterly inexplicable design choice. For those unaware, the new biome-themed torches aren't just decorative. If you use regular torches in certain biomes instead of them, enemies have reduced drop rates. I cannot fathom a single justification for this bizzaire and completely unnessecary addition, nor for the fact that it's a completely hidden mechanic with huge ramifications on gameplay, especially the early hardmode period of farming souls.

I know I'm just a single player out of millions, and I'm not getting this removed on my own, but I would at least like a single good reason from anybody why this was added, and what it adds to the gameplay experience, aside from crippling players who simply aren't aware of its existence.
Wait this happens? I didn’t know that, hmm interesting, well this is kind of off topic from what you are saying, but what is your favorite biome torch?
 

Mille Marteaux

The Destroyer
Out of all my time playing Terraria, I've always felt the Rod of Discord was just too common. It was simply too easy to get.

I'm glad to know that finally, this item that stands far and tall above the power curve for how absurdly quickly you can get it, can have its drop rate reduced simply by placing a few regular torches in my farming area.

E: this is sarcasm
 
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Greybrynn

The Destroyer
Out of all my time playing Terraria, I've always felt the Rod of Discord was just too common. It was simply too easy to get.

I'm glad to know that finally, this item that stands far and tall above the power curve for how absurdly quickly you can get it, can have its drop rate reduced simply by placing a few regular torches in my farming area.
Uhhh the rod of discord, it’s not that common, I have never once got it when I am trying to get it.
 
Yes, luck was a brilliant idea to allow the player to reduce farming tediousness, brilliant idea utterly ruined by the ultimate power move of "let's penalize the player for simply doing basic stuff such as putting basic torches to explore" ! How to shoot yourself in the foot, I hope any other game developer watching this will take notes - this is NOT a kind of mechanic you want in your game
(and by the way, as useful as luck is, it is very sneakily introduced - in Pre Hardmode right now I have found no information on it anywhere. I feel like it could be at least useful to tell the player that placing basic torches everywhere is bad ? I tend to put a lot of torches everywhere very early in the game, so even if the information is available later on it's pretty useless for me not to know it from the get go. i'm not going to replace all the basic torches with other, non penalizing torches now)
 

Buddha

Terrarian
They should have left the regular standard torches as +0 / -0 ... I don't get this specific RNG modification, because it is a hidden mechanic.
Literally just got aware of it due to this thread.
 

Bird up

Terrarian
I have no problem at all with the torch changes. According to the wiki, unlisted torches do not change luck positively or negatively, which means if you just make lots of white torches with the new diamond gem trees, then your luck is unchanged. You can sleep in the bed to speed up gem tree growth. White torches are the brightest torches anyways. You could also mass buy ultrabright torches.

Then when you actually want to farm, using biome torches is a huge plus, not a hindrance.
 

Nemo

Terrarian
I have no problem at all with the torch changes. According to the wiki, unlisted torches do not change luck positively or negatively, which means if you just make lots of white torches with the new diamond gem trees, then your luck is unchanged. You can sleep in the bed to speed up gem tree growth. White torches are the brightest torches anyways. You could also mass buy ultrabright torches.

Then when you actually want to farm, using biome torches is a huge plus, not a hindrance.
Using standard torches, the easiest to come by (and impromptu craft), results in lost of luck.
 

Bird up

Terrarian
Yes, which is why you should only use them for early exploration, then switch to a higher tier torch when you can. I was able to make hundreds of white torches before fighting a single boss using gem trees.
 

The Mad Engineer

Steampunker
I have no problem at all with the torch changes. According to the wiki, unlisted torches do not change luck positively or negatively, which means if you just make lots of white torches with the new diamond gem trees, then your luck is unchanged. You can sleep in the bed to speed up gem tree growth. White torches are the brightest torches anyways. You could also mass buy ultrabright torches.

Then when you actually want to farm, using biome torches is a huge plus, not a hindrance.
I mostly agree with this. I already have a few farming spots set up with correct torches and the increase in drops is noticeable. The main problem is, there's no way to know about how torches affect luck in game, so most people will just fill everything with normal torches. They should either at least add some dialogue about it to the guide or the torch's description, or remove luck penalties for standard torches completely.

Still, even with normal torches I haven't noticed a big decrease in drops, so I don't think it's that big of a problem, it would just be much better if it was explained or at least hinted at in game. Maybe some visual effect to tell you you're affected by good or bad luck would be another solution, so players can discover by themselves what gives you luck by noticing the bad luck effect when they're around normal torches and the good luck effect from biome torches.
 

Deceus

Terrarian
Yeah, this seems like a really weird change. An unlisted and extremely opaque change to drop rates and damage that (potentially) penalizes the player for using certain types of torches? Torches, of all things? Especially in a game that gives the player such freedom to decorate as they like? I don't get the appeal of this mechanic at all. Put me down in the "get rid of it" camp.

EDIT: Oh hey, I found this linked from the wiki. Assuming no one doctored a discord chat screenshot or something:


Um... wow. Alright then.
 
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Mille Marteaux

The Destroyer
So, the most important impact of Torch Luck for me was the theoretical DPS loss from it.

After having stared at a target dummy for 15+ minutes, I can safely say:

It doesn't matter. It's potentially a 1% DPS loss. Your attacks hit so frequently and they get rerolled so infrequently that you're unlikely to see any tangible increase on boss encounter times, even if you're in a Snow biome with normal Torches everywhere.

Besides, you could do a theoretical max roll of 215 that gets rerolled.. into 214.


Just let it get explained properly ingame somewhere and people won't care nearly as much.

E: Here is a video of me hitting a Dummy with a Solar Eruption to give you something to chew on as well.
 
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Mage-of-Rage

Plantera
Just let it get explained properly ingame somewhere and people won't care nearly as much.
Pretty much this. Outside the fact that regular torches giving a penalty is stupid the overall effect of Negative Luck is greatly exaggerated. Sadly I don't think simply adding more clarity is enough.

If it was on the release of 1.4 people wouldn't be as mad. But now? The damage has been done and people are angry. Devs are going to have to change the torch luck mechanic if they want to appease them at this point.

Edit: Also to be fair placing multiple normal torches would have the same effect as one normal torch. Same type of torches don't stack so your luck isn't going as low as you think it is.
 
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rooofus

Terrarian
Yeah, this is pretty bad. Incentivizing the player for using the correct torches in the right area is one thing. Punishing the player for using a basic utility item with absolutely no indication that you are doing so is insane, the notion that lighting areas you're exploring is actually cursing the environment is nonsensical and not a conclusion a normal player would arrive at. It's like finding out that using ropes instead of vines/webs in certain areas penalizes you.

And worse, for all I know, that is the case! Because this change was totally undocumented and not hinted at in the game at all, and I have no idea what other secret mechanics are incurring penalties for normal gameplay behavior. It's annoying that I had to discover this by lurking community forums and reading the wiki, you should assume that the average player does not do this. Any player who actively avoids "spoilers" and wants to discover things naturally is very likely penalizing themselves in the current version without knowing, and will never know.
 

Mille Marteaux

The Destroyer
Yeah, this seems like a really weird change. An unlisted and extremely opaque change to drop rates and damage that (potentially) penalizes the player for using certain types of torches? Torches, of all things? Especially in a game that gives the player such freedom to decorate as they like? I don't get the appeal of this mechanic at all. Put me down in the "get rid of it" camp.

EDIT: Oh hey, I found this linked from the wiki. Assuming no one doctored a discord chat screenshot or something:


Um... wow. Alright then.
Yeah, not to be sensational about it.. but it's absolutely real. I looked for it myself on the Discord server, and anyone can find it right now from just looking up redigit saying "punish."

Which gets really funny when you consider the other result that shows up is also him saying he doesn't want to punish creativity.

 

Mage-of-Rage

Plantera
Yeah, not to be sensational about it.. but it's absolutely real. I looked for it myself on the Discord server, and anyone can find it right now from just looking up redigit saying "punish."
I understand he made that post but you Red is a known :red:poster. He rewrites the lore and makes jokes every other Discord post. He made this back in 2019 and no one batted an eye. Now that they hate the mechanic they're ganging up on Red on the basis on this alone as if he's drunk on power or something.

Is it too much to imagine a dev made a bad move than make some convoluted plot as to why they're the villain suddenly.
 

Mille Marteaux

The Destroyer
Is it too much to imagine a dev made a bad move than make some convoluted plot as to why they're the villain suddenly.
It's called "optics." It's not unreasonable to expect people to be upset with Red for making a change that has lowered Biome Key drops from .04 to 0.2 just because a single normal Torch is nearby.

Especially because of how easy it is to take a statement like that out of context.

The damage has been done. This image has been posted, and it is circulating. It's made its way here, it's floating around Reddit, it's floating around smaller communities.

It doesn't matter if it was a joke or not because it isn't funny, and it is ultimately and actively what the system is doing.


And none of this would have happened if we could have just been told this system was added somewhere obvious in-game instead of not finding out about it at all until people cracked the game's code wide open and documented the guts on the wiki.

I need to stress that I'm not angry, I'm not upset, and I'm not about to tableflip anyone or try any smear campaigns. A lot of this is being blown out of proportion because of people being sensationalist gamers. But nothing around this situation looks good, and it will burn community goodwill if something about it isn't addressed.
 

Mage-of-Rage

Plantera
I need to stress that I'm not angry, I'm not upset, and I'm not about to tableflip anyone or try any smear campaigns. A lot of this is being blown out of proportion because of people being sensationalist gamers. But nothing around this situation looks good, and it will burn community goodwill if something about it isn't addressed.
Well said. It's incredible how much the community is blowing things out of proportion and I apologize if I came off a bit rude but the fandom has been incredibly rabid lately. Loki has already compiled the complaints and sent to the devs on Discord so we at least have that but I don't expect the complaints to die down soon.
 
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