First off, I'd like to say thank you all for being sensible about this debate.
This. Definitely. Thank you especially mod developers for taking all comments on-board in an entirely well balanced and even tempered manner. I've certainly experienced middle aged adults, in other games, totally loose it over trivial critique of their way of playing or doing things, so it's very refreshing that the Terraria community seems to be pretty much a total chill-zone.
Now, reconsidering how it's probably being used, I'll probably change that.
When I get the time, I'll throw together a barebones screenlock/dummyghost only mod. After that, there'll be a couple more updates on the full Mechmod while we tie up loose ends and incomplete features
Ok, ok. What I'd personally like for you guys to do, for the moment, is not to do any massive about-turns. Mostly just carry onto the next step of whatever you were up to, and have this discussion hopefully help to steer the direction that you point towards thereafter. I think a somewhat 'over damped' response would be better than yo-yo'ing, springing back and forth (or shooting off in another direction entirely).
There's going to be at least as much of getting
me up to speed with
your world here, as taking on board any of my observations and inclinations. This dialogue is hopefully good for bridging the gap between you coders and us users. Helping us to appreciate what you have actually done and what you are (kindly) giving us. Short of seeing a log of your hours, it's kind of hard for me to know the lengths that have been gone to (even with a pretty good grasp on the game and a little familiarity with coding and software development). I think the scale of your efforts are almost entirely unperceived by us, out here. A lot of private communication (and administration) must be happening, aside from the 'actual work', itself. It's kind of a shame that's invisible, especially as it's all unpaid too!
So thanks, again.
Also, it's nearly impossible for us (code illiterate) users to know the implications of what it means to be using a "mod". I mean, just to get it to de-compile, re-compile and run, you've had to make edits to 'fix' bugs, right? Even without added features or tweaks it would be very slightly different code to the original, that couldn't be 100% guaranteed to *always* behave exactly the same under matching circumstances. So once you actually started grafting in significant new features, and making fixes to any issues arising, there's probably going to be fairly notable changes to how the game runs, in some places.
This might sound like a somewhat semantic point to you guys, but aside from fussy old players like me, a lot of more naive users might not realise that there might be any knock-on effects from the mod's features. Like mob spawning conditions, incorrect location of avatar icon on map, etc, etc, keyed off screen position, rather than player's true position... But I think we need to think carefully about what wants doing with this in particular; lock screen position doesn't
seem especially weird at the moment. So, I think there should be some (simple) informative warnings summarising roughly what (unexpected) ways gaming experience may be altered (or not altered). In the top post of this thread. Potentially in-game itself (but probably not, as it might make too much clutter).
It's unfortunate that (un)locking screen scroll has so many and various impacts throughout the code, as it is (in my experience) such a key feature. It does make my griping about
other potential (unknowable) knock-on issues from your other features seem a little silly, perhaps... Though again, those not seeing the code changes can't really gauge this... Maybe for deciding what features stay in a
MechModMini version, it should be a case of drawing up a table listing desirability of features verses potential for undesirable effects...? So, wiring highlighting is fairly cool and very 'safe' (and so kept), where-as map copying is extremely risky, and tricky to use (so excluded). Those in the know would have to decide this, on balance; ultimately you should know best.
And when I've said " 'stable' ", I don't mean to say that what you have made is broken, or half-arsed at all. On the contrary; I'm very impressed with the quality of finish!
(I've bought and played a number of full Steam games that
were broken, and MechMod is
not broken.) It's more about the emergent possibilities that new features produce and the scope for creating problems.
A lot of what MechMod has done, so far, is to bridge oversights of the Terraria devs, regarding implications and advanced usage of our certain aspects of interest...
My idea of an engineering mod of Terraria centers around being able to test and analyze structures in a way that I believe Terraria should... had engineering been a fleshed out aspect of the game, and hoiktronics a planned part of that.
... What I'm most wary of is the risk of over-reaching to the point of creating a lot more new, potential issues than what is being solved. Copy-pasting sections of map in-game is *
massively* ambitious. Kudos for making it work at all, but it's a huge thing to implement and it's currently trivial to very quickly mess up a world with it (and also to crash the game, e.g. copy-paste entire world!). I think this has great potential, who wouldn't want to be able to shuffle over part of a build by a tile or 2, rather than rebuild (or exit out to load TEdit), etc, etc. But it needs a large amount of discussion as to how to refine it, and should maybe never be accessible without explicitly acknowledging some fairly pointed warning messages...
With less EPIC features, it's more about your on-going process of trying to make the interface ever-more streamlined, trying to be as brutal as possible excluding unnecessary options, folding features in together where ever possible, etc. You know how that was supposedly part of the main brilliance of Steve Job's Apple: what *doesn't* get included. I've never been a fanboy myself, and couldn't believe iPhones did not have copy/paste functionality (at one point), but that can be the scale of self-restraint needed to hit the usability sweet-spot. This being said, the target demographic here
(with MechMod) is tech-heads...
[...]why you don't like the UI. [...] Personally, I think it fits really nicely within the game and isn't obtrusive
I, personally am pretty impressed with how integrated all the Mechmod options are within the game, in the same style as existing settings and such. However, I think that
@inomanoms, like myself, is a pretty sensitive instrument, naturally zooming in a lot on details. Overall, I think you're good, and seem to take pains already over design, but there's always room for improvements and a little tidying up here and there.
Well, would it be alright if parts of the mod are separated, but still in one mod?
That might well be one option - to have an "
advanced" mode, with more detailed options/controls, opening up from a more limited, simple set with defaults and such locked down. This would probably be a pretty decent way to limit the unforeseen consequences of accidental user mis-use of powerful additions, and could keep 'unnecessary' features out of the way, but I don't know how much it would eliminate the more fine grained changes to game behavior (as talked about above). If you've had to add a check to see if a feature is enabled, that already a change...?
do not want a plain quote stable mod.
It takes users away from what I consider the real mod, the one that we've poured our time into, and pushes the impression that the complete version is in fact buggy and likely to detonate your dynamite when you don't want it to.
Lovely turn of phrase!
I think most of your incoming users would probably lean towards the 'full fat' version, anyway. And it would be up to you guys how you word the description of each (potential) version. Calling a lesser one 'lite' implies it is the deviant, cut-down one... But I'm not saying this is definitely the way to go. Especially if it means doubling up on publishing efforts for each update/patch. It may be asking too much, realistically.
I do think we need to keep re-assessing what your lovely mod
is, as you move forwards, and a line might need to be drawn, and a split made, if you are moving into the realms of a full-on
general purpose creative mode.
at that point I don't know if I could endorse it as the "official T-MEC community mod", (not that I, not being a moderator of this forum, would have any ability to do so in the first place).
You have much ability, you have a MechMod badge in your signature, displayed everywhere that you comment.
This discussion group was created as a stand-in for an official wiring sub-forum, as it seems to continue to be. So I feel a duty to be as official as possible and as true to the base game as possible. I don't see any untenable departures from that with MechMod, so far, but would like to keep this in mind, and continue to avoid making something that is essentially a
different game. I see MechMod as a set of tools for better understanding, designing and building contraptions that are fun, useful or generally amazing when used
within the base game.
Whether or not one will always run the modded version, whenever playing, is a tricky issue... I don't like to have a 'god mode' button right there at my fingertips during regular play. Distracting. A players 'suspension of disbelief is a very subtle and delicate phenomenon. It's very easy to suddenly loose all motivation to play a game. I've generally always made a point to never look up cheat codes, in the past, until I'd exhausted the fun and was about to give up anyway (or was hopelessly stuck). For me, I had a little waver of this feeling when playing with MechMod's UFO speed adjustment. It's hard to say exactly what that feeling was, but the game suddenly stated to feel a little arbitrary (and pointless). It's fairly clever idea/feature, and almost certainly this won't trigger other users in the same way. But bear in mind, maybe. Very tricky issue.
I think there needs to be some psychological walling off of normal play from MechMod usage. I'm keen to see
@five--three 's new interface feature, whether there will be a permanent symbol/watermark on display at all times that the mod is running (I would like). To make it clear in user's videos, and mentally, for users experience.
Also, this might be a big ask, as well as being controversial, but what about Steam achievements...? Is it even feasible to disable attaining them while MechMod is active, say? I've accidentally triggered achievements when popping into old worlds with my old character, and felt robbed...
Also, also, MechMod is not a cheat engine, and we don't really want it to be used in lieu of one. So what ways can we gently discourage it's use as such? Like tweaking 'God mode' to be like more of a 'ghost mode' - invulnerable, to safely AFK experimental setups, but also unable to interact with the world... If adhering fairly strictly to an explicitly state remit, then (silly as this may sound) none of the features should be directly for fun (of e.g. making bosses insta-dead with an infinite damage ray)... A bit of a thin line to walk.
You might add part, parts, re-phased, or none of a statement like this to an "About" section of mod or the top of this thread (I make it sound painfully dull, so up to you guys!
):
"
MechMod is the official T-MEC community Terraria mod, created to boost the understanding of, aid the creation of, and ease the use of advanced wiring and other mechanical creations while in-game. It is not a cheat engine or content mod. Game behavior may be subtly changed while using this mod, despite best intentions."
//end of waffling for another today!
. And sorry about any turbulence in the wake of all that too.