Game Mechanics No more Zombies on our Roofs!

[OlleWernersson]

Sorry, still don't agree. It just seems like too much work to fix a non-existent issue.

Gosh darn it! Were you at least convinced that bases using walls for defense would become a more serious option for defending against events and invasions?

Let me, with an open mind and the intuition that we will have to further refine this suggestion, try to address your concerns here, starting with your worry that this feature would only fix a non-existent issue. Of course, what is considered an issue for some may not be considered an issue for others. So, instead of framing this in terms of issues that we think this feature would address, let's focus on why I believe the consequential changes that would occur are indeed positive outcomes.

Besides making wall-defended structures not worse for defense than an open area and actually making them a serious option, ensuring that every player who builds these kinds of bases is happy that their base is well-suited for defense, I also believe there are numerous positive changes outside of defense from events and invasions. Consider just a normal day or night in Terraria: now there will be significantly more situations where you can relax inside your walls, not having to worry about slimes, zombies, wolves, possessed armors, and many more walking enemies. Upon entering your base, you can instantly relax, without worrying about some walking enemy jumping from the roofs before you get inside. Considering this, I think that this feature will enhance the contrast between feeling safe near our buildings and feeling fearful out in the wilderness, increasing the immersive feeling when playing the game.

I also believe that this will enhance the immersive feeling in more situations than just this one. For example, consider if players are building a bridge or arena above ground, thinking they can bypass more enemies by staying above them. They will soon realize that every mob will still spawn on this bridge, making it no safer than walking on the ground. Imagine trying to pass through a sandstorm or the jungle and building a bridge above ground. Wouldn't it be cool if only the flying mobs were attacking on that bridge, rather than angry tumblers still rolling toward you or jungle slimes and zombies?

Every Terrarian builds something, whether it's just one base or one arena; this feature would still have an impact for everyone. Is there really nothing you find positive about this change? Wouldn't it be satisfying to have an arena where no zombies or slimes spawn? Wouldn't it be satisfying to have a wall-defended base with dart traps outside?

Finally, I would like to address your concern that this feature would be too much work. We worked hard yesterday to come up with a solution that would require as little effort as possible, both for the developers and for the in-game calculations, while also providing a satisfying result. That being said, we are very open-minded and would be forever grateful if there was another solution that required even less work than this, while still giving a satisfying result, of course.

Certainly, we are not claiming that implementing this would require less effort than adding a weapon or perhaps even an armor. Personally, I believe we have reached a point where we don't necessarily need a lot of additional content in terms of more items. It's not to say that some additional items wouldn't be highly appreciated, but rather that improving the game mechanics and the existing features could go a long way. I think we can all agree that changes like the ability to auto-jump one block instead of having to jump every time we want to move, or the ability to sort and quick stack to nearby chests with just one button, are highly appreciated. If we are looking for more items, extreme weapons, armors, or bosses, we don't have to look further than mods like Calamity and many others.

 

[Seagull of Rage]

Gosh darn it! Were you at least convinced that bases using walls for defense would become a more serious option for defending against events and invasions?

Let me, with an open mind and the intuition that we will have to further refine this suggestion, try to address your concerns here, starting with your worry that this feature would only fix a non-existent issue. Of course, what is considered an issue for some may not be considered an issue for others. So, instead of framing this in terms of issues that we think this feature would address, let's focus on why I believe the consequential changes that would occur are indeed positive outcomes.

Besides making wall-defended structures not worse for defense than an open area and actually making them a serious option, ensuring that every player who builds these kinds of bases is happy that their base is well-suited for defense, I also believe there are numerous positive changes outside of defense from events and invasions. Consider just a normal day or night in Terraria: now there will be significantly more situations where you can relax inside your walls, not having to worry about slimes, zombies, wolves, possessed armors, and many more walking enemies. Upon entering your base, you can instantly relax, without worrying about some walking enemy jumping from the roofs before you get inside. Considering this, I think that this feature will enhance the contrast between feeling safe near our buildings and feeling fearful out in the wilderness, increasing the immersive feeling when playing the game.

I also believe that this will enhance the immersive feeling in more situations than just this one. For example, consider if players are building a bridge or arena above ground, thinking they can bypass more enemies by staying above them. They will soon realize that every mob will still spawn on this bridge, making it no safer than walking on the ground. Imagine trying to pass through a sandstorm or the jungle and building a bridge above ground. Wouldn't it be cool if only the flying mobs were attacking on that bridge, rather than angry tumblers still rolling toward you or jungle slimes and zombies?

Every Terrarian builds something, whether it's just one base or one arena; this feature would still have an impact for everyone. Is there really nothing you find positive about this change? Wouldn't it be satisfying to have an arena where no zombies or slimes spawn? Wouldn't it be satisfying to have a wall-defended base with dart traps outside?

Finally, I would like to address your concern that this feature would be too much work. We worked hard yesterday to come up with a solution that would require as little effort as possible, both for the developers and for the in-game calculations, while also providing a satisfying result. That being said, we are very open-minded and would be forever grateful if there was another solution that required even less work than this, while still giving a satisfying result, of course.

Certainly, we are not claiming that implementing this would require less effort than adding a weapon or perhaps even an armor. Personally, I believe we have reached a point where we don't necessarily need a lot of additional content in terms of more items. It's not to say that some additional items wouldn't be highly appreciated, but rather that improving the game mechanics and the existing features could go a long way. I think we can all agree that changes like the ability to auto-jump one block instead of having to jump every time we want to move, or the ability to sort and quick stack to nearby chests with just one button, are highly appreciated. If we are looking for more items, extreme weapons, armors, or bosses, we don't have to look further than mods like Calamity and many others.

Again, not worth it. It's to much work to fix a non-existent issue.

 

[OlleWernersson]

Again, not worth it. It's to much work to fix a non-existent issue.

Certainly, I understand your perspective, and I genuinely appreciate your feedback. I believe this feature could bring positive aspects, but I'm eager to hear more about your concerns. Could you please share why you think the aspects I mentioned might not be positive in your view? Your insights are valuable and could help us refine this idea further.

 

[Seagull of Rage]

Certainly, I understand your perspective, and I genuinely appreciate your feedback. I believe this feature could bring positive aspects, but I'm eager to hear more about your concerns. Could you please share why you think the aspects I mentioned might not be positive in your view? Your insights are valuable and could help us refine this idea further.

As stated before, it's just not worth it. The issue is basically non-existent in the first place, and doesn't need a "fix".

 

[OlleWernersson]

As stated before, it's just not worth it. The issue is basically non-existent in the first place, and doesn't need a "fix".

Is it safe to assume that none of the aspects I brought up would be seen as positive for you? Of course, if you don't find anything positive about these aspects, then any amount of work done by the developers for a change that, in your view, doesn't provide anything positive would necessarily not be worth it for you.

 

[Seagull of Rage]

Is it safe to assume that none of the aspects I brought up would be seen as positive for you? Of course, if you don't find anything positive about these aspects, then any amount of work done by the developers for a change that, in your view, doesn't provide anything positive would necessarily not be worth it for you.

Yeah. Thats exactly what ive been saying.

 

[OlleWernersson]

Finally had some time to work on this idea, mostly focusing on improving the communication about where this idea comes from and why we feel it would be worthwhile to implement.

@a really far away planet You have made some comments about this post that I can't find to be very constructive. Please remember that criticism is supposed to be positive and help us improve on the suggestion.

This would require breaking the game in order to "fix" something extremely niche.

Help us understand which part of the game would be broken by this feature so that we might find a better way of doing things.

OlleWernersson has invented an overly complicated and consequential solution to a problem that simply does not exist, and I feel like that is more than sufficient enough for me to disagree.

We have worked on making this solution as uncomplicated as possible while ensuring a satisfying result. When you say that this is overly complicated, could you please elaborate on which part could be made less complex?

The point here is that it should be a consequential solution that will have consequences for just about all buildings in all biomes on the surface. As well as other positive consequences that we believe exist. If you think that there is a negative consequence to this feature, please share it with us so that it can be brought to the surface and perhaps worked on.

Which aspect that we have brought up is a 'problem that doesn't exist'?

Just that some "realistic solutions" like these aren't actually beneficial in any way whatsoever and just make the game a whole lot less fun.

Here, it seems like you have a consequence in mind that would make the game less fun. What consequence do you think would make the game less enjoyable in your opinion?

there are still several other issues involved with this "solution". For one, Terraria as a game isn't meant to be realistic - you can literally fall miles and not die if you fall on poo blocks. There's no problem with abiogenesis in Terraria, and I think it should even be explicitly canon. Additionally, it would greatly reduce the number of spawns that an enemy has, which would hurt players in multiple ways if they were, say, a Summoner, and were trying to get Flinx Fur for equipment.

First of all, this isn't a realistic solution. It classifies all walking enemies into one group that jumps equally high and doesn't consider how fast they can move to the left or right, for example. This solution also isn't realistic, as nothing under the surface line would be affected. No, this solution is meant to improve gameplay experience, not add realism in the first place.

This would not make it harder to farm for any type of enemy, as you can just go outside of the base, and Flinx fur is obtained from Snow Flinx, which wouldn't be affected at all by this feature, as they are underground.

 

[The lil duck]

To @Depressed 0wl and everyone who states that this feature would not improve the situation of bases and structures being seen as optional places to defend against intruders:

Consider the following base:
View attachment 430809
The Blue lines represent the areas where currently all walking enemies can spawn, thereby breaking into this base at almost any point and filling this place with walking enemies.

During just one goblin invasion, this proved to be an annoyance. The following are just a small sample size of situations that arose during this goblin invasion:
View attachment 430811View attachment 430812View attachment 430813View attachment 430815
Although no situation arose where it resulted in death during this goblin army encounter, I can assure you that because of situations like this, we die a lot more than would otherwise be the case. Dying like this isn't fair or enjoyable in our opinion.

From the four examples above, we can observe in the first example how walking enemies jumping from roofs can startle you. The next two examples illustrate that if you leave the base just a little, there will be walking enemies that have filled the base when you come back. The last example shows how annoying it is to have walking enemies stacking on the roofs, making it much harder to go out, as well as dealing with the sorcerers.

It might seem like I'm saying that events shouldn't be hard, but this is not at all what I'm suggesting. Simply put, this would reward you for having built such a base and make it possible to use your base instead of an outside arena to manage events and invasions more easily.

Please remember that this is only one building example with one event in one biome. This feature would affect pretty much all buildings, events, and non-events in every biome on the surface.


To everyone who states that this feature will be too complicated to implement or will cause lag, all of this features main parts of concern:

• Define the surface line and update it sparsely (not being a concern for lag and isn't complicated conceptually).
• When a walking monster is to be spawned, which is the minority of monsters, by the way, two checkers would have to move a few tiles, let's say 50, not more than what the spawning system already does when checking if there is a block below (not being a concern for lag). Also, movement in the spawning system is already a working feature (not being a concern for too much complexity).
• Make a rough estimate of the jump height of the kind of monsters in the list provided. I see no reason for why this would take more than 2 hours, depending on how accurate one would want this

From my understanding if zombies couldent got on roofs people could make there surface world out if roofs and they wouldent spawn

 

[Heath04🌳]

Is it safe to assume that none of the aspects I brought up would be seen as positive for you? Of course, if you don't find anything positive about these aspects, then any amount of work done by the developers for a change that, in your view, doesn't provide anything positive would necessarily not be worth it for you.

even if it's seen as positive or not this post is talking about reworking spawning itself. Terraria is a "Spaghetti Code" game, meaning they have to rewrite all spawning lines to make this. Even if they do that, the amount of work and testing that needs to be put in to make sure there aren't any bugs, even after the QA team gets done with it and it releases then you have the players who will break this down to the bones and exploit it however they can, then the devs need to put more work. The devs didn't want to do a boss, which could be for entirely different reasons yet still I do not think that they would wanna rewrite the entirety of the code for spawning mechanics just so zombies don't spawn on your roof. This seems like a very large task just for the small reward that I don't think most players would even notice. You may remember this post that you made about the game engine, take note of Tunnel King's response about is it worth adding.

 

[ADDemon🌳]

Introduction
What constitutes a good defensive structure in Terraria? The answer is simple: construct a large hole, burrow beneath it, and wait.
What makes for a terrible defensive structure in Terraria? The answer: a massive castle or town surrounded by walls.
Why are we punished for using walls but rewarded for using holes? Why are we penalized for building a castle but praised for digging ourselves underground?

You know what else is annoying? Spending time building something, only to have every walking enemy spawn on the balconies, roofs, elevated decks, or any elevated surface within our structure, turning the entire area into a creature-filled sanctuary.

This feature will level the playing field and lead to a much more satisfactory experience for all builders and inhabitants of these buildings.

Proposal
Code the following addition to the current spawning system:

Spoiler: Implementation Guideline

The entire idea here is to define a surface line that represents all the blocks where walking enemies can spawn. When the spawning system generates a walking mob, it checks if the block it will spawn on is part of or below the surface line. If it is, the walking monster can spawn. If the block is above the surface line, the walking monster will not spawn.

Spoiler: Surface Line Implementation

The surface line can be defined and reevaluated in 4 easy steps:

1. The surface line begins as a line of tiles between the lowest floating island level and above where land can exist.
2. Each tile will move down until it reaches one of these walls: dirt (crafted or natural), mud (crafted or natural), Hardened sand (every type), Snow (crafted or natural), Ice (natural), evil stone, pearlstone, and natural grass.
3. Each tile will move up until there are no longer naturally placed blocks such as dirt, any stone, any sand, mud, any snow, or any ice.
4. To smooth out the surface line and fix player-placed blocks, removed blocks, pyramids, and the dungeon, a checker will move first to the right, then to the left. Wherever the checker can move, the surface line will be adjusted accordingly.

Spoiler: How the Checker will move

Firstly, the checker will start from the leftmost tile that is part of the surface line and move to the right, following the surface blocks. At each step, the checker will check if there is a block with no blocks above it, 7 tiles or less above the checker. If such a block is found, the checker will teleport to that position and continue its journey. The checker will become stuck if it is forced to move to the left to follow the surface blocks. In that case, the checker will teleport to the next tile to the right that is part of the surface line, until it finds a tile that has air above it. The process will be complete when the checker reaches the rightmost tile that is part of the surface line, where another/same checker will start but be configured to move to the left.

You can visualize the checker as an 8-block high and 1-block wide rectangle that moves from side to side, always with the bottom tile touching the ground. If there is a tile above to jump to, it will do so.

Spoiler: Mobs that would be affected

Forest

• Slimes
• Zombies
• Possessed Armor
• Warewolf
• Goblin Scout

Snow

• Slimes
• Zombies
• Wolf
• Ice Golem
• Ice Elementals

In fact, there is no mob in the surface snow biome that can fly! So you can feel very safe in a snow biome castle Unless these is a blizzard in midnight(deerclops)
Desert

• Mummies

Jungle

• Slimes
• Zombies
• Derpling (if the structure if high enough)
• Turtles (if the structure is high enough)

Crimson

• Face Monster
• Slimes
• Herpling

Corruption

• Slimes that are not Slimers

This feature would not directly affect the ocean, but it would have an impact if you had a large structure built that extends beyond the ocean into another biome.

Sandstorm

• Angry Tumbler

Blood Moon

• Zombies
• Clown

Goblin Invation

• Peon
• Thief (Although perhaps this one should be able to climb )
• Warrior
• Archer

Slime Rain would not be affected

I don't know about the Frost Legion, as I've never experienced this problem with this event. Although I could imagine it being a problem, I don't know.

Solar Eclipse

• Swamp Thing
• Frankenstein
• Eyezor
• Fritz (if High enough)
• Creature From the Deeps
• Butcher
• Nailhead
• Psycho
• Dr. Man Fly

Having a smart defensive structure could prove valuable in this event, only having to worry about certian enemies on roofs, like Vampire, the possessed, Reapers and Mothron

Pirate Invation
All pirates would be affected, although I would imagine that pirates could jump from the Flying Dutchman, or they could use planks to reach more structures!

Pumpkin Moon

• Scarecrow
• Splinterling
• Hellhound
• Headless Horseman
• Mourning Wood

Frost Moon

• Gingerbread Man
• Elves
• Nutcracker
• Yeti (although it would be cool if the Yeti could climb)
• Krampus
• Everscream
• Santa-NK-1

Martian Madness
Everything except the Martian Saucer and Drones would be affected.

The bullet points for this feature:
Increasing Immersive Feeling!

• Eliminates jump scares from walking monsters falling from our roofs or similar structures. You can simply walk to your house without having to worry about a zombie falling down on you.
• Enhances the coziness and homely feeling of all houses and built structures, as there is no longer a need to worry about safeguarding all areas under roofs or balconies from walking mobs. Now, you can actually have open doors to your balconies in the snow biome, as there are no flying mobs that can fly more than 8 tiles high!
• Introduces the possibility of creating structures/castles that are completely safe from certain enemies. Instead of the disappointing experience of learning that even though you built walls around your castle, there will still be the same intruders as before!

More Strategic Options!

• Would make the usage of traps much more satisfying for any defensive structure surrounded by walls, as an arrow trap would shoot at all walking enemies
• Now more structures can be seen as a viable choice for defense during events and invations. We don't enjoy when the intruders are using our roofs against us! Having walking intruders drop down from everywhere is just messy and doesn't allow for a great experience when defending from our castle!
• Now you can easily build a Skeletron arena that no zombies spawn on!

Spoiler: A letter on why we feel this would be a worthwhile feature.

Of course, no one would like a feature to be implemented that wouldn't yield any positive gameplay experiences for them. It would be seen as a waste of time when the developers could have worked on something they would have appreciated instead. This letter is written to explain why this feature would be appreciated by us, but also in the hopes of including something that everyone would find positive. Although not all features have to be appreciated by everyone, we do feel that a feature like this needs more motivation than the addition of a new item, for example, as adding this feature would certainly require more work than introducing a new weapon or armor.

How did we come up with this idea in the first place? During our Mediumcore Mastermode playthrough, we have to take progression rather slow as this is the hardest setting we have played on. With a slower progression pace, we find ourselves enjoying building more than ever. Since we know we will live in these buildings for a long time, we start focusing on building a lot even before defeating any bosses. This approach leads to us having numerous buildings all across the map that we spend a lot of time in during early pre-hardmode. We soon start to notice zombies and walking mobs always being on our roofs, and we always comment on how this should not be the case. We ask, 'How did they get up there?' This is how the idea on how to prevent such occurrences sparked in the first place.

When working on the idea, we realized how many more types of these occurrences have annoyed us. For example, our main and first base in the forest is constructed with walls all around, in the hope that we would be safer inside the walls, essentially making this base a castle. However, to our disappointment, there were still zombies and slimes spawning inside this castle. Since we have roleplayed that this is a castle, we like to view it as our defending point when intruders come. We were saddened that during blood moons and when the goblins came, they simply used these buildings and walls against us. They spawn everywhere on the roofs and walls, dropping down and making it harder for us than if we fought outside of our castle. Illustrative example:
View attachment 433063
The blue and green areas are where walking mobs can currently spawn. Because of the blue areas, this base is being targeted during any type of event, as illustrated by the following examples:

View attachment 433066(Jumpscare)View attachment 433067(walking mobs filling up the base when going outside for just a second, using the roofs against us)

With this feature enabled, walking mobs would only spawn in the green areas, making this base more viable for defense and cozier in general.

Continuing with the idea, we realized the potential benefits that this feature could offer beyond the scope of our specific experiences during our playthrough. Consider how much easier it would be to build an arena that was safe from walking enemies. Tired of zombies walking into your Skeletron arena? For example:
View attachment 433072
This small arena would be zombie-proof with this feature enabled. But in the current state of Terraria, this happens:
View attachment 433073(Zombies spawning in the arena stop us from spawning Skeletron. And when we are fighting Skeletron, we don't want zombies in the arena.)

Overall, this feature would affect every building in every biome on the surface, making them cozier and enhancing the immersive feeling. This feature would also allow these wall-defended bases to be a fun and viable choice as a defense for every invasion and event. This is why we believe that implementing this feature would be worthwhile.

Spoiler: Criticism and Responses

Criticism: Just build walls to prevent mobs from spawning.
Response: This just forces us to make design choices that are neither visually pleasing nor mechanically satisfying. And it would continue this way throughout the game, especially being mechanically unsatisfying as it adds another annoyance of having to place walls everywhere. Additionally, player-placed walls do not have the functionality of blocking walking mobs; they have the functionality of blocking pretty much every mob.

Spoiler: Exclusions

• Underground, this would not affect the underground at all. We've talked more about spawning conditions underground here.
• Farms, if you somehow happen to have a farm above the surface that you want walking enemies to spawn in, there is an easy fix! place a dirt wall behind a block.

This feature is only meant to affect buildings, houses, structures and even towns on the surface.

Wow, everything, just wow, this would be absolutely perfect in all ways

 

[OlleWernersson]

From my understanding if zombies couldn't get on roofs, people could make there surface world out of roofs and they wouldn't spawn

The idea is that if the block considered for spawning a walking enemy is above the surface line, then it wouldn't spawn. So you would have to build "roofs" such that the checker never reaches that level. This could be achieved by creating a platform that is always 8 blocks or higher above the ground, for example. In this case, walking on this platform would feel safer, as no walking enemies would directly spawn on it. However, please remember that everything below the surface line (the surface line defined by the implementation guideline) would not be affected at all.

Having the ability to build such a platform, in our view, would be a positive consequence of this feature. We believe it would be cool if you could use such a platform to navigate through a sandstorm or jungle, for example. You wouldn't have to worry about the angry tumblers or zombies on the ground; only the flying enemies would reach you, while you see the walking enemies filling up the ground.

When we find time, we will add some pictures to show how the checker moves, making it clearer and reducing any confusion that might arise.

even if it's seen as positive or not this post is talking about reworking spawning itself. Terraria is a "Spaghetti Code" game, meaning they have to rewrite all spawning lines to make this. Even if they do that, the amount of work and testing that needs to be put in to make sure there aren't any bugs, even after the QA team gets done with it and it releases then you have the players who will break this down to the bones and exploit it however they can, then the devs need to put more work. The devs didn't want to do a boss, which could be for entirely different reasons yet still I do not think that they would wanna rewrite the entirety of the code for spawning mechanics just so zombies don't spawn on your roof. This seems like a very large task just for the small reward that I don't think most players would even notice. You may remember this post that you made about the game engine, take note of Tunnel King's response about is it worth adding.

They would have to rewrite all spawning lines for this? We have designed this feature to become an addition to the current spawning system. The only difference, as far as the current spawning system is concerned, would be that when a walking enemy is to be spawned, it checks if the block is above the surface line or on/below it.

Breaking this down to the bones is what we have tried to do so that there are no obvious bugs or exploits. What exploits would arise from being able to prevent defined walking mobs from spawning above where the checker can't reach?

Don't you think people will notice that their arena can actually be built so that no walking enemies spawn directly on it? Or that anyone who built something larger wouldn't notice that possessed armors, zombies, and whatnot would no longer intrude every surface and balcony of that building?

 

[Heath04🌳]

They would have to rewrite all spawning lines for this? We have designed this feature to become an addition to the current spawning system. The only difference, as far as the current spawning system is concerned, would be that when a walking enemy is to be spawned, it checks if the block is above the surface line or on/below it.

All is misleading, although it is still a lot of work that would need to be rewritten and there's a large chance that this just won't be done since again, this would barely be noticeable to most of the playerbase. Also define "surface line"

Breaking this down to the bones is what we have tried to do so that there are no obvious bugs or exploits. What exploits would arise from being able to prevent defined walking mobs from spawning above where the checker can't reach?

Don't you think people will notice that their arena can actually be built so that no walking enemies spawn directly on it? Or that anyone who built something larger wouldn't notice that possessed armors, zombies, and whatnot would no longer intrude every surface and balcony of that building?

This thread is brainstorming, nothing is being broken down since it's not even written into the code yet. Also no, I really don't think many people would notice.

 

[OlleWernersson]

All is misleading, although it is still a lot of work that would need to be rewritten and there's a large chance that this just won't be done since again, this would barely be noticeable to most of the playerbase. Also define "surface line"

Why does anything have to be rewritten, though? Can't the current design just be an addition to the existing spawning system? We have defined the surface line in the implementation guidelines, and it is this definition that I'm using when speaking of the 'surface line.'

Perhaps not many people are thinking about how walking enemies and zombies are invading almost every corner of their base, but I'm sure that with this implementation, just about all players will feel a difference. However, you are right that there might be some players who don't mind this right now; some players might be used to having walking mobs spawning in every arena and on every surface of their buildings, and some might not want this to change, and that is totally fine. Although I would argue against

I also think that there are many consequential aspects that would be positive if this feature were implemented. I go through some of them in the post and some in the comments.

This thread is brainstorming, nothing is being broken down since it's not even written into the code yet

True, every feature has to be bug tested, of course. But if the implementation guidelines are followed, they can be used as tools to make this feature work.
EDIT:
I might have misunderstood you here; we have indeed broken down this implementation and worked hard on ensuring that if the steps are followed, it would give a satisfying result and that no obvious bugs or exploits would arise. But of course, if anyone finds a flaw with the implementation, we would be highly thankful for finding it and helping in improving the idea.

So assuming that the implementation can work as planned, hopefully, we have thought about enough scenarios to prevent bugs or exploits. Although it would be foolish to think that this implementation is perfect. In fact, it is not and needs to be further refined.

 

[Heath04🌳]

Why does anything have to be rewritten, though? Can't the current design just be an addition to the existing spawning system? We have defined the surface line in the implementation guidelines, and it is this definition that I'm using when speaking of the 'surface line.'

Perhaps not many people are thinking about how walking enemies and zombies are invading almost every corner of their base, but I'm sure that with this implementation, just about all players will feel a difference. However, you are right that there might be some players who don't mind this right now; some players might be used to having walking mobs spawning in every arena and on every surface of their buildings, and some might not want this to change, and that is totally fine. Although I would argue against

I also think that there are many consequential aspects that would be positive if this feature were implemented. I go through some of them in the post and some in the comments.

"Re-Logic decides to add some major functionality, then 'the game engine' usually requires a major modification too, which can be a massive undertaking by itself as they have to make sure that the existing features continue to work."

For the other point I don't think most players will notice since
A, newer players tend to make NPC hotels so zombies spawning on the roof means nothing
B. more advanced players really don't care about such a thing

There are multiple different ways to counter the zombie attacks (or any other enemy using fighter AI) so this suggestion would be meaningless to those players. These types of things are so ingrained in my brain personally that I don't even tend to notice it, whenever I see zombies on my platform my first instinct is to just dunk and recover, it's 2nd nature now. Which is why I really don't agree with this suggestion overall, without these features that are currently in the game then players wouldn't have figured out such counters to the AI or ways to add defenses to housing. Without such features videos like this would have never been made most likely. You also still yet to explain this "surface line"

True, every feature has to be bug tested, of course. But if the implementation guidelines are followed, they can be used as tools to make this feature work.

EDIT:
I might have misunderstood you here; we have indeed broken down this implementation and worked hard on ensuring that if the steps are followed, it would give a satisfying result and that no obvious bugs or exploits would arise. But of course, if anyone finds a flaw with the implementation, we would be highly thankful for finding it and helping in improving the idea.

So assuming that the implementation can work as planned, hopefully, we have thought about enough scenarios to prevent bugs or exploits. Although it would be foolish to think that this implementation is perfect. In fact, it is not and needs to be further refined.

It's perfectly fine for people in this thread to theory craft a way for this to work but from what I've read it just doesn't seem like there is any/enough thought put into this. Even if you spend ages to add to it you'll also have everyone who isn't on the forums or hasn't seen this thread who can further push this idea and potentially break it. Just because someone in this thread can't give a good reason to break it doesn't mean that someone who does play the game and reads the code can't. There are a lot of people who enjoy reading the source code and finding what they can exploit in this game, especially bugs.

 

[OlleWernersson]

@Heath04🌳 Thank you so much for such a well-structured response with illustrative gifs. (I have to work on making higher quality and bigger gifs like yours )

"Re-Logic decides to add some major functionality, then 'the game engine' usually requires a major modification too, which can be a massive undertaking by itself as they have to make sure that the existing features continue to work."

I'm really glad that we received these wonderful answers when we asked about the game engine. I never expected any response, but I was pleasantly surprised!

Regarding this suggestion, I can see how step 4, with the checker moving from right to left, could be considered a major functionality. Although I won't know for sure, as no one has commented on what would actually be the major functionality here. What I do know is that the current spawning system already has a 'moving' functionality where it checks if the tile is in the air or not and then moves down until a block is reached. However, this is, of course, simpler moving than what the checkers are doing, and I don't know if there is any feature that already has a very similar function to what the checkers would have.

I also think @punchready added some great insights:

And to answer the original question properly, the commonly spread notion that the "game engine" is limiting is simply wrong, instead the game's implementation has grown to such a messy state that many new features would require significant engineering effort like Tunnel King explained. There are still instances where the effort was put in however, for example with the release of 1.4 the implementation of enemy loot was completely redesigned from a terribly messy single function to a very robust and extensible system. In some cases, the "new feature not being possible" is also just due to "lazyness", for example it would be trivial to restructure the internal tile representation just a little bit to support twice as many liquid types, or twice as many paint types (or even both).

What I interpret from this is that it is easier to add code to an existing structure, such as adding a weapon, item, or mob, as these elements can seamlessly fit into the current working system. However, if the game engine has to be changed, unpredictable issues might arise due to the messy and complex nature of the engine. This is one of the reasons we aimed to propose something that wouldn't alter the current system significantly and hopefully would just be an 'addition' in terms of code.

Additionally, I interpret that some changes to the game engine are possible without breaking the game. For instance, it appears that enemy loot was completely redesigned, making it easier to add and modify loot behavior(my guess). However, I'm uncertain about the extent to which this feature would need to change the game engine or how significant its impact on the game's functionality would be. Nevertheless, I believe that step 4 is the major cause for concern.

For the other point I don't think most players will notice since
A, newer players tend to make NPC hotels so zombies spawning on the roof means nothing

I just watched a YouTube video where someone played Terraria for the first time. They built an arena by placing platforms on top and to the side of their 'NPC hotel.' At night, when fighting the EoC for the first time, zombies became a major obstacle to their victory, preventing them from staying on the arena. (I can try to find this video if you want).

I don't believe there's any new player who is satisfied when they learn that zombies and walking enemies spawn even when building platforms high in the air and on their roofs. No, I think more players would be satisfied if they learned that they can actually build their structures to their advantage, keeping all the walking enemies below them, watching helplessly as the enemies can't reach them. Instead of being punished by walking enemies jumping from roofs and invading every arena.

Alright, players often figure out that they can build a large hole and just dig themselves down next to it to deal with almost all enemies. But players who try defending themselves with walls and height won't be nearly as rewarded as those who build large holes. In fact, they will mostly be punished.

For the other point I don't think most players will notice since
B. more advanced players really don't care about such a thing

I think this becomes more prevalent when building larger buildings and bases, as the effect of walking enemies spawning everywhere has an even greater impact and is more dangerous, especially in higher difficulties like Mastermode and mediumcore/hardcore.

You bring up interesting points here:

There are multiple different ways to counter the zombie attacks (or any other enemy using fighter AI) so this suggestion would be meaningless to those players. These types of things are so ingrained in my brain personally that I don't even tend to notice it, whenever I see zombies on my platform my first instinct is to just dunk and recover, it's 2nd nature now. Which is why I really don't agree with this suggestion overall, without these features that are currently in the game then players wouldn't have figured out such counters to the AI or ways to add defenses to housing. Without such features videos like this would have never been made most likely.

Are you saying that players who have learned to counter these fighter AIs would see this feature as meaningless? Why? It's not like these players will have no need for these techniques anymore. You will still encounter just as many fighting AIs around the world; you would just have the option of not having them on the roofs or arenas. If you miss walking enemies on any of these areas, just place a dirt wall behind a block somewhere, and the checker will ensure that walking mobs will spawn there as usual, or just remove the wall, and the surface line will be reevaluated (perhaps not immediately).

The defensive possibilities would be even greater so that Khaios' video would be even longer and with more tricks! All the tricks he showed will still be very relevant. What trick that Khaios brought up wouldn't still be relevant?

You also still yet to explain this "surface line"

What more explanation is needed beyond the definition provided in the implementation guidelines with the four steps given in the post? This is the definition that we have to use when talking about the surface line, so that we don't get confused and all refer to the same thing.

It's perfectly fine for people in this thread to theory craft a way for this to work but from what I've read it just doesn't seem like there is any/enough thought put into this. Even if you spend ages to add to it you'll also have everyone who isn't on the forums or hasn't seen this thread who can further push this idea and potentially break it. Just because someone in this thread can't give a good reason to break it doesn't mean that someone who does play the game and reads the code can't. There are a lot of people who enjoy reading the source code and finding what they can exploit in this game, especially bugs.

Well, you are helping by adding thoughts into this right now, and I can assure you that we have thought hard about the implementation guidelines. But of course, it still needs refinement, and any additional aspects are greatly appreciated. As I've said before:

If anyone can find a naturally generated surface or player-built structure that this current implementation guideline does not address satisfactorily, your assistance will be invaluable in helping us refine the details of these tools we have laid out!

This feature is meant to be utilized so that players can enjoy not having walking enemies everywhere. It is designed so that you can alter your world and build places where no walking enemy can reach.

However, I don't see how this would "break" the game. If you wanted to prevent walking enemies from spawning on the surface of the world, you would have to ensure that the checker never reaches the surface. This would be equivalent to building an artificial surface without any of the walls defined in the second step and with no way for the checker to reach any part of it.

In other words, I don't see how you could use this to your advantage other than preventing roofs, arenas, and bases from being filled with walking enemies. There would be no realistic way to use this feature to ensure that no walking enemies spawn on the surface, for example. Building an entire artificial surface wouldn't be an overpowered strategy, especially not when compared to simple lava-filled holes.

 

[Heath04🌳]

What I interpret from this is that it is easier to add code to an existing structure, such as adding a weapon, item, or mob, as these elements can seamlessly fit into the current working system. However, if the game engine has to be changed, unpredictable issues might arise due to the messy and complex nature of the engine. This is one of the reasons we aimed to propose something that wouldn't alter the current system significantly and hopefully would just be an 'addition' in terms of code.

Additionally, I interpret that some changes to the game engine are possible without breaking the game. For instance, it appears that enemy loot was completely redesigned, making it easier to add and modify loot behavior(my guess). However, I'm uncertain about the extent to which this feature would need to change the game engine or how significant its impact on the game's functionality would be. Nevertheless, I believe that step 4 is the major cause for concern.

You can't simply just add this in though, this is a major change of how the spawning works.

I just watched a YouTube video where someone played Terraria for the first time. They built an arena by placing platforms on top and to the side of their 'NPC hotel.' At night, when fighting the EoC for the first time, zombies became a major obstacle to their victory, preventing them from staying on the arena. (I can try to find this video if you want).

I don't believe there's any new player who is satisfied when they learn that zombies and walking enemies spawn even when building platforms high in the air and on their roofs. No, I think more players would be satisfied if they learned that they can actually build their structures to their advantage, keeping all the walking enemies below them, watching helplessly as the enemies can't reach them. Instead of being punished by walking enemies jumping from roofs and invading every arena.

For me personally if I start a new game and if I make a base and that prevents any harm done by mobs then I am going to be disappointed, if enemies can break down my doors and jump down from the ceiling that just adds the excitement of danger. I wouldn't see why anyone wouldn't be satisfied with the added difficulty, it's not like it makes the game too hard.

Alright, players often figure out that they can build a large hole and just dig themselves down next to it to deal with almost all enemies. But players who try defending themselves with walls and height won't be nearly as rewarded as those who build large holes. In fact, they will mostly be punished.

Punished for not preparing their base with defenses seems fair, especially during invasions.

I think this becomes more prevalent when building larger buildings and bases, as the effect of walking enemies spawning everywhere has an even greater impact and is more dangerous, especially in higher difficulties like Mastermode and mediumcore/hardcore.

You bring up interesting points here:

Are you saying that players who have learned to counter these fighter AIs would see this feature as meaningless? Why? It's not like these players will have no need for these techniques anymore. You will still encounter just as many fighting AIs around the world; you would just have the option of not having them on the roofs or arenas. If you miss walking enemies on any of these areas, just place a dirt wall behind a block somewhere, and the checker will ensure that walking mobs will spawn there as usual, or just remove the wall, and the surface line will be reevaluated (perhaps not immediately).

The point was that I was going to miss using the techniques, it was that since there are such simple ways to deal with this it isn't a problem. A player simply isn't annoyed by this or bothered since advanced players are so used to playing with it. If it were implemented then the devs just put a ton of time into adding a feature hardly anyone would notice still. Sure it will be known but it wouldn't affect anyone's gameplay in a meaningful way.

The defensive possibilities would be even greater so that Khaios' video would be even longer and with more tricks! All the tricks he showed will still be very relevant. What trick that Khaios brought up wouldn't still be relevant?

Less reason to add defenses to your base would make you not want to watch the video in general.

What more explanation is needed beyond the definition provided in the implementation guidelines with the four steps given in the post? This is the definition that we have to use when talking about the surface line, so that we don't get confused and all refer to the same thing.

A visualization of the process.

Well, you are helping by adding thoughts into this right now, and I can assure you that we have thought hard about the implementation guidelines. But of course, it still needs refinement, and any additional aspects are greatly appreciated. As I've said before:

This feature is meant to be utilized so that players can enjoy not having walking enemies everywhere. It is designed so that you can alter your world and build places where no walking enemy can reach.

However, I don't see how this would "break" the game. If you wanted to prevent walking enemies from spawning on the surface of the world, you would have to ensure that the checker never reaches the surface. This would be equivalent to building an artificial surface without any of the walls defined in the second step and with no way for the checker to reach any part of it.

In other words, I don't see how you could use this to your advantage other than preventing roofs, arenas, and bases from being filled with walking enemies. There would be no realistic way to use this feature to ensure that no walking enemies spawn on the surface, for example. Building an entire artificial surface wouldn't be an overpowered strategy, especially not when compared to simple lava-filled holes.

You can currently see no flaw with it since it's your idea, but I can assure you if it's implemented especially on early release with bugs n such people can and will pick it apart.

 

[OlleWernersson]

You can't simply just add this in though, this is a major change of how the spawning works.

Again, you say that this is a major "change," but what about the current spawning system needs to change? (Except when a walking enemy defined by our list is to be spawned, it has to check if the block is below/on or above.)

I see no reason why the calculations on the surface line has to be coded inside the "current engine functions" lets say, and not be a seperate part of the code.

Do you disagree with this? And if so, where is my reasoning flawed?

For me personally if I start a new game and if I make a base and that prevents any harm done by mobs then I am going to be disappointed, if enemies can break down my doors and jump down from the ceiling that just adds the excitement of danger. I wouldn't see why anyone wouldn't be satisfied with the added difficulty, it's not like it makes the game too hard.

You can already construct such a base though, just build your base in the ground. Also, if you build a base with walls as I've talked about, then it wouln't prevent flying mobs from entering, and wouldn't prevent goblin peons from breaked doors, so it would still be alot worse than just digging yourslef down under a big hole.

Are you arguing that all players will be satisfied to learn that their attempt at building a safer base with walls will result in a less safe place to be in? The exact same intruders are there as before, and now they are jumping down on you as a bonus...

This change isn't mainly focused on making the game easier; it is specifically targeted to prevent the game from being difficult in ways that feel unfair and dissatisfying.

Punished for not preparing their base with defenses seems fair, especially during invasions.

The players who try to prepare with walls and height are preparing, though. They are just punished by the game because it doesn't recognize it as preparation. The game recognizes hiding underground as preparation, but not hiding inside walls or above ground.

The point was that I was going to miss using the techniques, it was that since there are such simple ways to deal with this it isn't a problem. A player simply isn't annoyed by this or bothered since advanced players are so used to playing with it. If it were implemented then the devs just put a ton of time into adding a feature hardly anyone would notice still. Sure it will be known but it wouldn't affect anyone's gameplay in a meaningful way.

You can still use the same techniques, as I've said before; there will still be the same amount of walking enemies around. You will just have the option of creating safer roofs and platforms.

How can you just say, 'it won't affect anyone's gameplay in a meaningful way'? I think we have given a fair amount of ways that this will change gameplay in the post and in the comments. If you don't agree with any of these aspects that will change gameplay, then why don't you bring that aspect up so that we can talk about it?

What kind of features would affect players' gameplay experience in a meaningful way if not features like this?

Less reason to add defenses to your base would make you not want to watch the video in general.

Why would there be fewer reasons to add defense to our bases?

A visualization of the process.

You are right; As soon as I find time I will try to add some kind of visual representation to explain how the checker works, as I guess that is what is most unclear. Which part of the implementation do you find most unclear?

You can currently see no flaw with it since it's your idea, but I can assure you if it's implemented especially on early release with bugs n such people can and will pick it apart.

You are kind of right that we don't see flaws, because when we discover them, we just correct them. This is why we need your help, and others'! You have to tell me why you are concerned about people picking it apart. What danger to the game arises from people exploring exactly how this feature works?

 

[The lil duck]

I just wana say even if i like this idea or not how active you are on the chat and how well your explaining you point i amazing i think im convinced that this would be good but i still dont get how you would be able to stop this problem

 

[Heath04🌳]

Again, you say that this is a major "change," but what about the current spawning system needs to change? (Except when a walking enemy defined by our list is to be spawned, it has to check if the block is below/on or above.)

Firstly do not use Fandom Wiki when looking up information, the site has been abandoned mostly and isn't as updated as the Official Terraria Wiki

I was incorrect about my understanding of how this can be implemented, I talked to someone I know and they said that it wouldn't be hard to implement just needs tweaks. The tweak being that it would have to evaluate every game tick, the CPU wouldn't want to scan the whole world left tor right like that.

You can already construct such a base though, just build your base in the ground. Also, if you build a base with walls as I've talked about, then it wouln't prevent flying mobs from entering, and wouldn't prevent goblin peons from breaked doors, so it would still be alot worse than just digging yourslef down under a big hole.

Are you arguing that all players will be satisfied to learn that their attempt at building a safer base with walls will result in a less safe place to be in? The exact same intruders are there as before, and now they are jumping down on you as a bonus...

Are you placing walls outside and just expecting enemies to not spawn inside em? Enemies don't spawn inside your house if you have walls.

This change isn't mainly focused on making the game easier; it is specifically targeted to prevent the game from being difficult in ways that feel unfair and dissatisfying.

I don't see how it's unfair, I been playing since 2015 and never heard anyone complain about this nor have I ever even given it thought. Even after giving it thought I still don't see it as unfair, as many other stated this is a non-issue still.

How can you just say, 'it won't affect anyone's gameplay in a meaningful way'? I think we have given a fair amount of ways that this will change gameplay in the post and in the comments. If you don't agree with any of these aspects that will change gameplay, then why don't you bring that aspect up so that we can talk about it?

Most of the comments state how minor of a gameplay change this would be, the "we" in your sentence looks to only be referring to about 2 people.

What kind of features would affect players' gameplay experience in a meaningful way if not features like this?

Why would there be fewer reasons to add defense to our bases?

Features players would genuinely noticed, if this change was implemented with no patch notes how long do you realistically think that people would find out about it? Ignoring the players that check the source code every so often.

You are right; As soon as I find time I will try to add some kind of visual representation to explain how the checker works, as I guess that is what is most unclear. Which part of the implementation do you find most unclear?

What the surface line exactly is

 

[OlleWernersson]

Firstly do not use Fandom Wiki when looking up information, the site has been abandoned mostly and isn't as updated as the Official Terraria Wiki

Oh, I wasn't aware of this. Thank you for informing us!

I was incorrect about my understanding of how this can be implemented, I talked to someone I know and they said that it wouldn't be hard to implement just needs tweaks. The tweak being that it would have to evaluate every game tick, the CPU wouldn't want to scan the whole world left tor right like that.

Oh, that is wonderful news! I wouldn't know exactly what the optimal solution for the checker going through the world here is. Perhaps it would be better to have it scanning more locally where the players are and building. By evaluating every game tick, would that mean that the checker would move one tile every game tick?

Are you placing walls outside and just expecting enemies to not spawn inside em? Enemies don't spawn inside your house if you have walls.

Look at the example that we provided in the letter; it explains with a picture where walking enemies are currently spawning and where we want them to spawn. (we want them to only spawn on the green line)

I don't see how it's unfair, I been playing since 2015 and never heard anyone complain about this nor have I ever even given it thought. Even after giving it thought I still don't see it as unfair, as many other stated this is a non-issue still.

Don't you think that building a base defended by walls, only to discover that walking enemies take advantage of it, can be seen as unfair? Or that building an arena above ground to deal with the Eye of Cthulhu or any boss, only to find out that it will be filled by walking enemies anyway, is unsatisfying? Doesn't anyone complain about walking enemies on roofs, as they intrude everywhere, being annoying? what about this recent post?

We've been playing in 2011, but we haven't given it much thought either, or at least we haven't had much of an idea about how we think the situation can improve, until recently when we tried harder difficulties such as master mode and mediumcore, and slowed down progression.

Most of the comments state how minor of a gameplay change this would be, the "we" in your sentence looks to only be referring to about 2 people.

Well, I think that this would affect more than what you might think at first glance. I believe there are more positive consequences than you might realize if you only consider, "Oh, I have no problem with zombies on my roofs, so this wouldn't affect me at all."

Features players would genuinely noticed, if this change was implemented with no patch notes how long do you realistically think that people would find out about it? Ignoring the players that check the source code every so often.

In the next trailer, there will be a segment where they defend a pirate invasion from a large castle. We see pirates struggling to climb the castle walls, with flying parrots being the first to arrive! Eventually, the flying ship arrives, and chaos ensues as pirates start jumping down from the ship.

There will also be a segment where they relax by bathing in bubbling bathtubs on a balcony in a large building in the snow biome during hardmode, as no common enemies are able to reach them up there.

What the surface line exactly is

I had a short amount of time where I managed to add one example of how the checker will move and not cause the surface line to reach the outer walls, consequently ensuring that no walking enemies would spawn on that wall. Check it out in the implementation guidelines!

If you have any questions about why the checker moved precisely in that way and think that it doesn't align with what the Checker Rules would allow, please let us know.

When more time is found, more examples will be added there