Weapons & Equip Summoner rework/additions

[MagicasquirrelTMT]

Honestly, your entire response feels like you just skipped half of everything I wrote and read what you wanted, which is understandable considering it's quite a lot of text, but still.

The Hornet Staff rework is cool but it's not necessary, just increase its damage to like 15 and then it'll be a nice single target weapon

This completely misses the point of what I was going at. Adding the measly two damage to hornets will not fix the fact that they're outclassed by imps and vampire frogs in both damage and reliability, and it won't fix the fact that hornets are just extra "projectile goes brrr" minions, and it especially won't fix the fact that summoner is the only class that has no use for hive pack, despite the whole concept of summoning bees fitting summoner the most.

The Pirate Staff changes are excessive, just having the parrots for weak anti air would be good enough for it. That "temporary minion on kill" thing has potential to be extremely abusable, they minions can already shred grounded

On second thought, the extra pirate thing might be a bit overkill. My initial idea was for this effect to be there in case players only want to use 1 or 2 pirates - the smaller pirates wouldn't be as strong, but would still get the work done. So, the player would have 2 choices: fill all slots with pirates and absolutely anhilate crowds, but do pretty much nothing against flying bosses/strong enemies, or have a few pirates, and then fill the rest of the slots with flying minions that could fight the boss/strong mob. Basically, so that the player had a choice between going all-in in one direction, or covering both sides equally. The parrots are just there so that the pirates aren't completely useless against air enemies in case the player decides to spam only pirates.

Flying Dutchman Staff sounds like just a redundant alternative to the Pirate Staff

...which is exactly what it's supposed to be. Sentires aren't meant to be solo carry weapons, or replacements for something - they're supposed to be more of a supportive, area denial weapon, something you can throw alongside your base setup for extra damage, to cover some of your weak sides, or to simply create a temporary sanctuary for yourself and your allies. Some people may not wish to use slots for the pirates, but still need crowd control - the flying dutchman would help there. It wouldn't just instantly kill all the invasions, but it would make sure you aren't completely helpless against 20 derplings going your way when you decide to all-in with sanguine bats

Why doesn't the Power Stone just add crit chance to minions?

This was my initial idea, but I realised it would kind of make morning star and kaleidoscope less special. With this effect, it will instead stack with them for really great damage... If your luck is maxed out

It's funny how nobody complained about Bee Armor until Obsidian armor came and broke everything; it's the latter that needs another nerf, not the former that needs a big buff

While I do agree that obsidian armor needs to be toned down just a bit more, putting it down to bee armor level won't help, as bee armor itself is bad, mostly due to I-frames making it so having less minions with higher damage is better than having more minions with lower damage.

The Tamer Glove and all subsequent tinkers are extremely strong, Berserker's Glove is already great for whips and that's just Feral Claws with 8 defense attached to them

I agree that it's a strong trinket, and perhaps some components should be moved later on in the game, but my point stands - summoner shouldn't just steal accesories from melee, it makes it feel less special as a class. You could say that using feral claws in the tamer gloves recipe is also stealing, but the final accessory benefits only summoners, and there is another instance of such "stealing" already in the game, in the form of molten quiver. (Also, 8 defence only really matters in normal mode, especially for a class which already has the weakest defence stats on armor in the game)

...I should really focus less on replying and more on updating the actual thread. You all have fun discussing this without me from now on, at least for now.

 

[tenthousandhoops]

This is a very solid list of suggestions. There's a lot of creativity here and I'd like to see it modded someday too.
Just a few critiques I have, hope it doesn't sound like I'm nagging or anything.

Manipulator Glove is too powerful, seems noticably more powerful than Papyrus Scarab yet it's available pre-hardmode. To even out the power curve, Power Stone could be a Hallowed Mimic drop since it doesn't have an accessory, but that still puts the Glove at pre-mech boss. Metal Tip and its tinker are fine for their tier, they're much more useful in the earlygame anyway.

Bee armor plus Young Queen Staff AND a Queen Bee drop (Bee's Knees, Beenades etc.) would make a lot of bees. Perhaps too many. The Young Queen Staff functioning as a scaling minion ala Tiger or Dragon would reduce the projectile spam and dfferentiate it a bit. The stinger is unneccesary, it looks plenty strong without it.

Guardian Staff fits the most as a Skeletron drop IMO, being a floating head. Dryad Spirit is unintuitive to obtain, kinda needs a guide to know it exists. Would be fine as a standalone Dryad or Witch Doctor sale in a Graveyard.

 

[MagicasquirrelTMT]

Thanks for the kind words! And yeah, I am open to critique and suggestions, since I don't know much about balance.

Yeah, Manipulator glove is mighty powerful, many people have said that, so I think I should move the components around a bit. I don't know about placing Power stone as a hollow mimic drop though, because then the three other classes would have weapon drops from the mimics, while summoner would have accessories. I could see it as a Queen slime drop, or maybe keep it as a travelling merchant item but move it to post-mech, or even as a regular mimic drop (albeit not as powerful). As for hollow, corrupt and crimson mimics, they could drop a summon, sentry and whip. (And as for the hallow mimic itself, it should get a universal, omni-class accessory like the other two mimics.)

I like the idea of making the Young queen staff stacking like the tiger and dragon, would add onto the "special" factor. Altough, what would change if you stacked more - would the bees deal more damage, or would they just fire faster? That's something I'll need to think about.

Guardian staff does feel more fitting as a skeletron drop. There should also be some summoner weapon in the chests, perhaps a sentry, so that summoner has a dungeon-related minion (guardians), whip (spinal tap) and sentry (something). Also, perhaps witch doctor could sell the staff if the dryad is just present in the world and he's in a graveyard. Graveyards and their special items from npc's are unintuitive on their own, and you'd either have to accidentally stumble into them, or search it up on the internet. Perhaps there could be something like a guide tip about graveyards, but that's something that should be talked about in an npc related thread.

 

[qwerty3.14]

While I do agree that obsidian armor needs to be toned down just a bit more, putting it down to bee armor level won't help, as bee armor itself is bad, mostly due to I-frames making it so having less minions with higher damage is better than having more minions with lower damage.

The i frame issue could be avoided if the hornet staff was actually good. Turning hornets into bee generators would make the problem worse.
You can also split your slots between flinxes and vamp frogs to take advantage of different iFrame slots. Of course... 1 extra minion can't compete with...

Obsidian armor's insane whips bonuses make more than bee armor look bad, it makes every offensive armor in pre hardmode look bad. The speed and minion damage make the spinal taps dps competative with late prehardmode weapons, and its huge hitbox completely distrupts any crowd you encounter. The minion bonuses on obsidian are basically just icing on the cake.

summoner shouldn't just steal accesories from melee, it makes it feel less special as a class.

Pygmy necklace, hercules beetle, necrotic scroll, and papyrus scarab: exist
Whips feel so much like melee weapons I'm really not bothered by them using the berserk gloves.

 

[MagicasquirrelTMT]

The i frame issue could be avoided if the hornet staff was actually good. Turning hornets into bee generators would make the problem worse.

Hmm, fair point, but I still feel like summoner needs some way to summon bees (and yes, I know you can just "use weapons from other classes", I'm talking about actual summoner weapons that deal summon damage). Perhaps hornets could be kept the way they are, with some stat changes to keep them useful, while the Young queen could be a sentry that's directly dropped by Queen bee herself, perhaps? Or maybe compensate the hornet change with a different single target minion, whichever works best.

You can also split your slots between flinxes and vamp frogs to take advantage of different iFrame slots.

Huh, do I-frames actually work that way? Wouldn't minion I-frames still conflict with each other? Either way, it's basically mixing two almost identical minions, which isn't really the point of mixing stuff. That's like mixing xeno staff with stardust cells

Pygmy necklace, hercules beetle, necrotic scroll, and papyrus scarab: exist
Whips feel so much like melee weapons I'm really not bothered by them using the berserk gloves

This is a funny argument. Space gun, laser rifle, laser machine gun and zapinators exist, but they don't get bonuses from ranger accessories like rifle scopes, even though they're "guns"; Magic dagger and shadowflame knife also exist, but they don't get boosted by ranger gear, because, again, they aren't ranged weapons, despite acting like them. There are probably a few more examples, but I think you get the point - despite whips being really similar to a melee weapon, they have their own distinct features such as tag damage, the multi-hit penalty, the fact they can't crit and the fact they deal summon damage. Having them share accessories with other classes might not be the biggest issue, but it's an issue nonetheless since it makes the class feel a lot less special, especially considering it's current accessories are nothing more than "more minions" and "more damage".

 

[qwerty3.14]

This is a funny argument. Space gun, laser rifle, laser machine gun and zapinators exist, but they don't get bonuses from ranger accessories like rifle scopes, even though they're "guns"; Magic dagger and shadowflame knife also exist, but they don't get boosted by ranger gear, because, again, they aren't ranged weapons, despite acting like them. There are probably a few more examples, but I think you get the point - despite whips being really similar to a melee weapon, they have their own distinct features such as tag damage, the multi-hit penalty, the fact they can't crit and the fact they deal summon damage. Having them share accessories with other classes might not be the biggest issue, but it's an issue nonetheless since it makes the class feel a lot less special, especially considering it's current accessories are nothing more than "more minions" and "more damage".

Magic guns don't feel any different from other magic weapons mechanicly, they still use mana, and since they're effected by mana sikness thats actually relevent (as opposed to summons). Shadowflame knife doesn't feel like a ranged weapon, it doesn't consume any ammo. The harpoon acutally feels a lot more like a melee weapon than a ranged one.

The reason whips feel like melee weapons isn't just visuals but also the fact that they mechanicly are more similar to melee weapons than to other summon weapons. They are the only summon weapons intended to be actively used, they are effected by melee speed, and they can use flasks. If it weren't for those tag bonuses I'd be ranting about these 'fake' summon weapons.

 

[CrazyDragon]

There are definitely some good ideas here. I remember making some old suggestion that involved special minions that buff you or debuff enemies, and are meant to be mixed in with traditional minions to add some alternate strategies. That's the main issue with summoners, I think. The other classes each have a bunch of unique weapons and strategies to try, but summoner just has minions, sentries, and whips, and different types of each don't really bring any new possibilities or changes to gameplay. I recently did a full summoner playthrough, and I ended up using a lot of weapons from other classes just to add some variety to the otherwise repetitive gameplay.

 

[MagicasquirrelTMT]

They are the only summon weapons intended to be actively used, they are effected by melee speed, and they can use flasks. If it weren't for those tag bonuses I'd be ranting about these 'fake' summon weapons.

Hmm, fair point. I still think that whips kinda fit into the summoner load out though, because think about this way: you have a passive weapon in the form of minions, a semi-passive weapon in the form of sentries (since you have to replace them every now and again) - it only makes sense to give summoners a more active weapon in order to balance out the weights. Especially considering that without whips, summoners would just go back to dodging in hopes that minion AI will be smart enough to carry them to victory, or they will start using other classes weapons again as their only choice. Yes, whips are flawed in the way that they just copy melee weapons and add fancy effects, but what else could be made instead of them, or changed about them, to give summoners something more active and unique? Something that wouldn't feel like it just copies stuff from another class? This topic is open for suggestions, because I honestly can't think of anything that would work at the moment

 

[semag]

I definitely agree that summoner needs far more variety, but I think whips need massive changes done to them. They are melee weapons, frankly, which is alright in themselves, if they provided support to the class and were not the literal focal point of it. Summoner is no longer summoner, it is a minor melee class, because whips are better than summons in general. Whips should do hardly any damage, but should provide their buff for like, 10 seconds instead of 4. This way you remain ranged like how a summoner should be, and then only have to swing by every 10 seconds to reapply the buff.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I definitely agree that summoner needs far more variety, but I think whips need massive changes done to them. They are melee weapons, frankly, which is alright in themselves, if they provided support to the class and were not the literal focal point of it. Summoner is no longer summoner, it is a minor melee class, because whips are better than summons in general. Whips should do hardly any damage, but should provide their buff for like, 10 seconds instead of 4. This way you remain ranged like how a summoner should be, and then only have to swing by every 10 seconds to reapply the buff.

Whips are really only the 'focal point' in prehardmode, that's when obsidian armor is at its peak.

In early hardmode the focus of whips becomes tag effects.
The fire cracker's dps with obsidian armor + feral claw is worse than the titanium repeaters base the only reason its good is thanks to its increadble tag effect which, requires minions. This is why if there was a theoretical whip that did slightly more damage but lacked a tag it would suck.

Then there's the blade staff, it has an increable synergy with every whip that isn't the firecracker which if you haven't killed a mech yet means you're using prehardmode whips. And since those tags don't scale with attack speed, but instead scale with minion count you're probably not using obsdian armor, in other words, the whip itself does almost no damage.

Once you get hallowed bars you have hallowed armor and the durandel.
Funny thing about hallowed armor is that it can use non summon weapon almost as well as whips, 7% damage and 7% crit vs. 17% damage. The only reason you'd be using the durandel with this is for that tag, which if you are using the blade staff the low summon damage of the armor isn't really an issue.

Whip dps doesn't become good until you get pumpkin moon gear since spooky armor has very high summon damage, and you throw in a papyrus scarab and necro scroll that you'll be using for minions anyway. Even with all this gear your whip dps is only comparable to magic and ranged weapons at base, so you either use whips for the tag effect, or you use non summon weapons for range, both are valid options.

 

[semag]

Whips are really only the 'focal point' in prehardmode, that's when obsidian armor is at its peak.

In early hardmode the focus of whips becomes tag effects.
The fire cracker's dps with obsidian armor + feral claw is worse than the titanium repeaters base the only reason its good is thanks to its increadble tag effect which, requires minions. This is why if there was a theoretical whip that did slightly more damage but lacked a tag it would suck.

Then there's the blade staff, it has an increable synergy with every whip that isn't the firecracker which if you haven't killed a mech yet means you're using prehardmode whips. And since those tags don't scale with attack speed, but instead scale with minion count you're probably not using obsdian armor, in other words, the whip itself does almost no damage.

Once you get hallowed bars you have hallowed armor and the durandel.
Funny thing about hallowed armor is that it can use non summon weapon almost as well as whips, 7% damage and 7% crit vs. 17% damage. The only reason you'd be using the durandel with this is for that tag, which if you are using the blade staff the low summon damage of the armor isn't really an issue.

Whip dps doesn't become good until you get pumpkin moon gear since spooky armor has very high summon damage, and you throw in a papyrus scarab and necro scroll that you'll be using for minions anyway. Even with all this gear your whip dps is only comparable to magic and ranged weapons at base, so you either use whips for the tag effect, or you use non summon weapons for range, both are valid options.

I'm pretty sure there is a video of someone using whips and obsidian armour to kill enraged empress of light in a few seconds. Besides, whips should NEVER be the focal point of the summoning class. It is the summoning class, not the whip class.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

I'm pretty sure there is a video of someone using whips and obsidian armour to kill enraged empress of light in a few seconds. Besides, whips should NEVER be the focal point of the summoning class. It is the summoning class, not the whip class.

That's because Obsidian Armour is incredibly overpowered and broken. I'm not sure why the developers gave it such high boosts and why they barely nerfed it in 1.4.1.2. But without Obsidian Armour, whips aren't very strong on their own.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

That's because Obsidian Armour is incredibly overpowered and broken. I'm not sure why the developers gave it such high boosts and why they barely nerfed it in 1.4.1.2. But without Obsidian Armour, whips aren't very strong on their own.

They did actually nerf it pretty substantially. It deals 17% less damage than before and the whip speed is 15% lower, meaning that your whips are more than 30% less capable than they were with it pre-nerf, as well as minions being nerfed. It’s probably still too strong, but it speaks to how goddamn overpowered it was in 1.4.1. Saying they “hardly nerfed it” is false.

And, it’s not *that* strong. It’s still the most capable prehardmode set when paired with Spinal
Tap and better than Spider, but it does fall off around Hallowed and Tiki because it *does* only offer one extra minion and the 35% whip speed begins to not make up for having 3 less minions to add. As for Hallowed, Hallowed is just so defensively strong that it’s hard to compete. I’m not saying it doesn’t need further nerfs, just that its ability is being overstated.

It’s very possible the video killing Empress with it the other user is referring to was before 1.4.1.2, and had a plethora of other offensive boosts beyond just Obsidian that most people wouldn’t prepare.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I'm pretty sure there is a video of someone using whips and obsidian armour to kill enraged empress of light in a few seconds. Besides, whips should NEVER be the focal point of the summoning class. It is the summoning class, not the whip class.

I did some minion testing a while back, Here are the kill times for empress of light using different minions.
I used spooky armor, mech glove, papyrus scarab, necro scroll and hercules beetle.
Notice how almost every minion lets me kill empress in less than half time as when I just use the kaleidoscope.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

Spine breaker

Very minor criticism, just nitpicking honestly, but there’s already a spine whip. Having two spine whips in back to back tiers would get confusing. Perhaps a tendon lash or something along those lines would work better, since it more directly fits into crimson and isn’t redundant with spinal tap?

 

[MagicasquirrelTMT]

Very minor criticism, just nitpicking honestly, but there’s already a spine whip. Having two spine whips in back to back tiers would get confusing. Perhaps a tendon lash or something along those lines would work better, since it more directly fits into crimson and isn’t redundant with spinal tap?

Yeah, I've been thinking about it lately, and it does need a change. I will think about the name for now, and change it once I start working on this thread again

 

[Schparks]

Full support! I think its a great idea to add more variety to the summoner class!

We only have 6 pre-hm minion weapons (10 if you count OOA) and I absolutely would like to see more. Same complaint with whips. There's only 4 pre-hm ones.

And you rarely see any summoning accessories that do anything else rather than increase minion slots/damage.

Why the heck do we only have 2 summoning sets?!

Btw I wouldn't mind spriting some of these items, lol.

 

[Bed_breaker117]

Full support! I think its a great idea to add more variety to the summoner class!

We only have 6 pre-hm minion weapons (10 if you count OOA) and I absolutely would like to see more. Same complaint with whips. There's only 4 pre-hm ones.

And you rarely see any summoning accessories that do anything else rather than increase minion slots/damage.

Why the heck do we only have 2 summoning sets?!

Btw I wouldn't mind spriting some of these items, lol.

I too would love to see more
Idk about spriting,I fall apart anyway

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

Why the heck do we only have 2 summoning sets?!

Prehardmode actually has 3 sets, which is equal to Mage and more than any other class. It also has 4 through Hardmode.

In terms of armor variety, I think the biggest thing would be unique set bonuses on Spider thru Spookg rather than an extra minion or some damage, and maybe another chestplate or helmet on Spooky with whip focus.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Same complaint with whips. There's only 4 pre-hm ones.

four! I thought there was only 3!