Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[WatcherCCG]

I love the cirtter shampoo its so nice to have your minions match the them of your character but... the stardust guardian is completely uneffected... please make the stardust guardian effected by critter shampoo.

The Stand is affected by the dye in your pet slot, actually.

 

[Yvori]

EXACTLY!

Rain armour is a brilliant idea. I love your brain right now.

Rain and Eskimo armor would be great candidates.
Also maybe Obsidian armor! I haven't checked yet, but last I did it was basically "very slightly better Gold armor which is pointless since by then you can access Shadow/Crimson/Hellstone armor pretty easily"

 

[Coolqwerts]

For a while I've been trying to think of ways to ease the early days of Summoners without overwriting any existing armors in use by other classes in their natural progression. At first, I thought the Pharaoh Set would be great for this as you can get it immediately, but it's a once a world chance. So... what's left? Only a few piecemeal that are both early enough in the game to be a first set before Bee Armor, and also not already class tied.

Two(Three) Candidates:
Rain Armor
Consists of two pieces. RNG based. Has negligible stats.

Eskimo Armor
Consists of three pieces. RNG based. Has no stats.

I'd recommend a +3% Summon Damage boost per piece and a set bonus of +1 Minion, or +9% as a set bonus and +1 Minion on the chest piece. The issue with Eskimo Armor is that it can be converted into Pink later. So I'm leaning towards Rain Armor.

So:
Rain Hat - 2 Defense
Rain Coat - 3 Defense, +1 Minion
Set Bonus - +9% Summon Damage

This is less defense than Lead Armor, and much less summoning stats than Bee Armor. Paltry, but it's something for Summoner when it'd otherwise have nothing. In this scenario, I'd buff the drop chance as well, if only a little.

EDIT:
Also some way for the Slime Staff to actually be obtainable within a time frame of use? A crafting recipe requiring a lot of Gel and Pink gel? A much higher drop rate from Pinky?

What about Obsidian armor also becoming a Summoner Armor?

 

[Izzabelle]

So Crystal Assassin Set is a curious story. It was originally meant to be a vanity set. It was just going to be a neat outfit people could use if they wanted, but we realized people would want Queen Slime to have a bit more, so we discussed implementing it as a true equipment drop. We had some planned special set bonuses for it, but they didn't pan out for logistical issues, and we ended up in a bind . . . with release approaching, time running out, and higher-level programmer time entirely dedicated to other concerns, we needed something viable for this slot.

With limited options available, I thought about how people had always wanted a true generalist set, and with that proposal, we went ahead with it. Its not flashy. Its not particularly exciting. But it is, in its own way, unique, and something people have expressed an interest in before, even if its not "meta". It even had a sort of thematic symmetry with the new Ninja set, which also had the same approach.

However, time was relatively tight with it, and we didn't have a ton of time to balance it, and its not set in stone. I've seen some of the discussions for more potent "hybrid class" set bonuses, and I think there is a possibility of that. So that's something on my brainstorm list as well.

tl;dr - I'd rather we got the generalist armor we got than just a vanity set. Its harder to get a vanity turned into an armor later, than it is to buff a weak armor.

I'm nowhere near this in my playthroughs yet, but I have been eyeing it. I think it'd be cool if this set empowered/modified "Throwing" weapons/damage/consumption in someway. They're all Ranged damage now, but even if it allowed you to throw those items farther or faster -- it'd be a cool nod back to a sub class now removed. Something like...

- Head Piece: Throw farther!
- Body Piece: Throw faster!
- Leg Piece: Conserve thrown weapons!

I guess that'd make it a ranged set so maybe the idea is too class-specific. Though I thought it could be like some weird nod and send off for what ultimately became an odd class contention. Also, 2 off topic-ish things:

- I have no idea why people get so ingrained in this idea that you HAVE to play a class or that the game HAS to be balanced around them when you can mix and match just about everything just fine.
- I still thoroughly believe and support the idea that Throwing should have been it's own class (rebalanced as such) with Boomerangs and Chakram weapons being absorbed by it. (which makes my suggestion for the Crystal Assassin set a bit biased. Oops.)

 

[Ruin]

Also maybe Obsidian armor!

What about Obsidian armor also becoming a Summoner Armor?

Unless Obsidian Armor was already changed in 1.4 (haven't made it again yet), I think that'd be a good candidate too. The reason I didn't suggest it though, was that you'd require either an "Evil" pick or explosives for the Obsidian. This is too late into the game's progression to be called "early". Plus it's defense would need to be lowered to fit in with Summon having the lowest defense armor (not that I agree with that). That, and it just doesn't look like a Summon set. Looks like a Ranged set, really.

On the note of it simply becoming one and not being the "first" set, this brings up the issue of it being easier to get than Bee Armor. If it was integrated, I'd lower it's defense a bit but give it +14%? damage and +1 Minion. Having said that, this creates a problem with Rain Armor. Other than a small +5% increase in Summon damage, all you're getting is more defense. Nothing else special. Would this be acceptable?

 

[Knotw]

Any thoughts on a slight buff or cost reduction for Fossil Armor? It feels a little weak compared to the other pre Eye of Cthulu gear since its ranged crit bonus is exactly the same as the Ninja set's generic crit bonus and the set bonus isn't particularly impactful for the stage of the game you get it at. Currently the fossil set needs 60 fossils to craft, for the same number of fossils you could make 1,200 Bone Javelins or 1,800 Bone Throwing Knives. In order for the set bonus to just break even with the number of javelins you could have made instead you'd need to throw roughly 6,000 javelins.
If you're using fossil armor alongside a platinum bow and Jester Arrows for Eye of Cthulu the increased damage is making it take about 15 less hits than using platinum armor, and of the shots that don't miss the chance to not use ammo will only save you about two and a half fallen stars' worth of ammo. You could miss three quarters of your shots against master mode Eye of Cthulu and still save less than 10 fallen stars' worth of ammo with Fossil armor. Ninja armor gives the exact same damage as Fossil but not restricted to only ranged, a movement speed bonus, and even has another point of defense too. The set bonus and crit chance bonuses do so little that there's next to no reason to use Fossil Armor even as a ranged only character past acquiring the Ninja set outside of silly things like using the Star Cannon to fight Skeletron.

 

[SweatSponge]

There is a new type of trap

Spoiler: a new type of trap

(the pressure plate track actuate blocks, dropping sand onto the player)

utilizing Pressure Plate Tracks.

No part of this trap is currently highlighted by the Dangersense buff. I would propose to let the Dangersense buff highlight Pressure Plate Tracks. I think that would be more fair, especially to hardcore players.

 

[slendyproject]

For a while I've been trying to think of ways to ease the early days of Summoners without overwriting any existing armors in use by other classes in their natural progression. At first, I thought the Pharaoh Set would be great for this as you can get it immediately, but it's a once a world chance. So... what's left? Only a few piecemeal that are both early enough in the game to be a first set before Bee Armor, and also not already class tied.

Two(Three) Candidates:
Rain Armor
Consists of two pieces. RNG based. Has negligible stats.

Eskimo Armor
Consists of three pieces. RNG based. Has no stats.

I'd recommend a +3% Summon Damage boost per piece and a set bonus of +1 Minion, or +9% as a set bonus and +1 Minion on the chest piece. The issue with Eskimo Armor is that it can be converted into Pink later. So I'm leaning towards Rain Armor.

So:
Rain Hat - 2 Defense
Rain Coat - 3 Defense, +1 Minion
Set Bonus - +9% Summon Damage

This is less defense than Lead Armor, and much less summoning stats than Bee Armor. Paltry, but it's something for Summoner when it'd otherwise have nothing. In this scenario, I'd buff the drop chance as well, if only a little.

EDIT:
Also some way for the Slime Staff to actually be obtainable within a time frame of use? A crafting recipe requiring a lot of Gel and Pink gel? A much higher drop rate from Pinky?

Whatever armor summoner can get needs to be something not dependent on rng. Literally half of the pre-hm summoner progression is locked behind luck, insane amounts of farming or just an event. It needs the armor to be consistently available.

Slime staff should just be a king slime drop. Its at the perfect place in progression, it fits thematically and it would fix the problem that theres still no guaranteed early game summoner weapon that can be aquired without farming for days.

 

[Ruin]

Whatever armor summoner can get needs to be something not dependent on rng. Literally half of the pre-hm summoner progression is locked behind luck, insane amounts of farming or just an event. It needs the armor to be consistently available.

Slime staff should just be a king slime drop. Its at the perfect place in progression, it fits thematically and it would fix the problem that theres still no guaranteed early game summoner weapon that can be aquired without farming for days.

Look, I think Summoner shouldn't have to rely on RNG in the early game either, but the only craftable set that fits the bill is Cactus. Cacti are far too plentiful and it would then make the Summon set the easiest class armor to get. As for the Slime Staff, making it a King Slime drop of course makes sense, but fighting King Slime with a Finch Staff? That'd take an eternity.

 

[Coolqwerts]

Unless Obsidian Armor was already changed in 1.4 (haven't made it again yet), I think that'd be a good candidate too. The reason I didn't suggest it though, was that you'd require either an "Evil" pick or explosives for the Obsidian. This is too late into the game's progression to be called "early". Plus it's defense would need to be lowered to fit in with Summon having the lowest defense armor (not that I agree with that). That, and it just doesn't look like a Summon set. Looks like a Ranged set, really.

On the note of it simply becoming one and not being the "first" set, this brings up the issue of it being easier to get than Bee Armor. If it was integrated, I'd lower it's defense a bit but give it +14%? damage and +1 Minion. Having said that, this creates a problem with Rain Armor. Other than a small +5% increase in Summon damage, all you're getting is more defense. Nothing else special. Would this be acceptable?

I think it would be kinda like Molten Armor for Melee. It's job would be to be the Summoner equivalent of Molten Armor.

 

[Motozappa]

Hi Leinfors and all the rest of the best,

We spoke about the changes to mining Green Bricks in The Dungeon as Surface or above being OK and now in the Underground as NG. So now the Reaver Shark went south and I'll need the Molten Pickaxe... right, it is what it is.

I hope I'm posting this in the right place as it does come down to "an item" ultimately, but if it's a no-no just say so....

However, I've a bit of a different issue whereas my Dye Trader (Bodashtart) will let me sell him Strange Plants, but only shows an option to sell. Is there something I'm missing/not seeing or understanding? Please find attached photo showing proper happy housemate and environment (less a few un-lucky candles (( apparently now allowed )) ):

 

[slendyproject]

Look, I think Summoner shouldn't have to rely on RNG in the early game either, but the only craftable set that fits the bill is Cactus. Cacti are far too plentiful and it would then make the Summon set the easiest class armor to get. As for the Slime Staff, making it a King Slime drop of course makes sense, but fighting King Slime with a Finch Staff? That'd take an eternity.

Well king slime is early enough to still be classless/using whatever you can.
Its technically the very first boss and just like queen bee its sort of optional so that would also fit summoner progression.

I think the idea of either changing meteor armor to be a summoner set or giving it a summoner helmet in addition to the current mage one is promising. If meteors get moved to post-eye instead of post-brain (which should happen anyway imo) summoner gets a set that is always gonna be available and is roughly at the same time other classes start being defined too.

 

[Rocketjay]

Hi Leinfors and all the rest of the best,

We spoke about the changes to mining Green Bricks in The Dungeon as Surface or above being OK and now in the Underground as NG. So now the Reaver Shark went south and I'll need the Molten Pickaxe... right, it is what it is.

I hope I'm posting this in the right place as it does come down to "an item" ultimately, but if it's a no-no just say so....

However, I've a bit of a different issue whereas my Dye Trader (Bodashtart) will let me sell him Strange Plants, but only shows an option to sell. Is there something I'm missing/not seeing or understanding? Please find attached photo showing proper happy housemate and environment (less a few un-lucky candles (( apparently now allowed )) ):

View attachment 272397

Speaking of that, did you know that Strange Plants can't be found until hard mode?

Yeah, I have no idea why this is a thing. It's not like strange plants are overpowered or anything.

It probably explains why you can't trade Strang Plants to him.

 

[Coolqwerts]

Speaking of that, did you know that Strange Plants can't be found until hard mode?

Yeah, I have no idea why this is a thing. It's not like strange plants are overpowered or anything.

It probably explains why you can't sell Strang Plants to him.

The selling potential of Trader Dyes have something to say about that.

 

[Ruin]

Well king slime is early enough to still be classless/using whatever you can.
Its technically the very first boss and just like queen bee its sort of optional so that would also fit summoner progression.

I think the idea of either changing meteor armor to be a summoner set or giving it a summoner helmet in addition to the current mage one is promising. If meteors get moved to post-eye instead of post-brain (which should happen anyway imo) summoner gets a set that is always gonna be available and is roughly at the same time other classes start being defined too.

To be frank, the changing of Meteor Armor's class will never happen. This isn't my opinion, but rather my observation. The team doesn't seem to want to do that to anything. Plus Leinfors doesn't have the ability to add in a separate helmet piece.

My opinion though, is that I agree about the class change. It's the perfect time for a Summon upgrade, and dare I say a new Summon weapon (Meteor Head?). Mage isn't really losing anything since Jungle isn't very hard to make and is available earlier anyway.

 

[Rocketjay]

The selling potential of Trader Dyes have something to say about that.

So... why don't they just reduce the price instead of pushing it to hard mode?

It just feels like yet another unnecessary change that didn't need to happen among many in this update.

 

[Coolqwerts]

To be frank, the changing of Meteor Armor's class will never happen. This isn't my opinion, but rather my observation. The team doesn't seem to want to do that to anything. Plus Leinfors doesn't have the ability to add in a separate helmet piece.

My opinion though, is that I agree about the class change. It's the perfect time for a Summon upgrade, and dare I say a new Summon weapon (Meteor Head?). Mage isn't really losing anything since Jungle isn't very hard to make and is available earlier anyway.

So... why don't they just reduce the price instead of pushing it to hard mode?

It just feels like yet another unnecessary feature that didn't need to happen.

It would still be a viable way of making money in early hard-mode that's the thing.

 

[Rocketjay]

It would still be a viable way of making money in early hard-mode that's the thing.

I really loved waiting until hard mode to get the hard mode dyes because I love the looks of them. They look really awesome.

Now I have to wait until hard mode to collect plants that were there purely for aesthetics because of easy money?

When there is a better way like having all of the plant dyes have no trade value then?

 

[Coolqwerts]

So why don't they just have all of the plant dyes have no trade value then?

I think the only way to get around it is making plant dyes sell for 0 gold in pre hard-mode and sell for 1 gold each in hard-mode if that is possible to code in.

 

[Motozappa]

@Coolqwerts

Sorry, I'm new here: I clicked "Quote" but it didn't react as anticipated.

Anyway I'm in pre-HM and still collecting Strange Plants. Not sure what's up on your end?