Lucky vs. Warding one expert mode

[Kneller]

I feel like these are the two best modifiers for accessories. What do you think is a best modifier for general use? Lucky effective increases damage by 20% (like menacing, but is more effective against armor), but warding will have you taking 10 (or is it 15?) damage per hit. I know it partially depends on if it's an enemy you need to tank vs. one you can dodge, but barring that situational effect, does anyone have an opinion on this? Thanks.

 

[Ezel]

Defense is very important during Expert Mode, so I think warding is more valuable than lucky. You can still increase critical chances with reforges, emblems, etc. Use it especially if you have ranger/mage/summoner gear. Try to get also a decent % of ammo reduction. The Worm Scarf, Frozen Turtle Shell, Beetle Armor and Endurance Potion provide a very high ammo reduction (17% + 25% (if below 50% HP) + 15-45% + 10% = max. 97% damage reduction).

 

[Flask & Vella the Latias]

Both. Lucky is a risk-reward Prefix, meanwhile Warding incerases defence by max of 24 (36 if you enchant armor too, if you have access to inventory editor).
But Meanacing is more worth due to enemy defence

 

[CellarDoor96]

Both are crap, especially in expert mode. Sure, a Warding reforge means you now prevent 3 more damage instead of 2, but when enemies do 100-200 damage per hit, that doesn't mean a whole lot. You're better off just trying not to get hit and instead maximizing your damage so you kill things faster. The only time Warding is worth it is if you stack a whole bunch of it plus damage-reduction items like the Worm Scarf.

As for Lucky, crit chance is inferior to damage, even if only slightly. Against an enemy with no defense, both damage bonuses and crit chance bonuses will give the same increase in average DPS, but as you increase the defense of the enemy crit chance loses its effectiveness compared to regular damage.

Menacing is better than either of them.

The Worm Scarf, Frozen Turtle Shell, Beetle Armor and Endurance Potion provide a very high ammo reduction (17% + 25% (if below 50% HP) + 15-45% + 10% = max. 97% damage reduction).

That's not how damage reduction bonuses work in Terraria. With that gear, you would get a total of 73% damage reduction. The accessory and potion bonuses are additive, but the armor bonuses are multiplicative.

 

[felis]

This depends what you what to do and what's the situation.
I think pre-hardmode, warding is the best one, but only if you combine 5 warding and a good armor, you'll have more than 40 defense and would defeat most boss easily.

Menacing is better than either of them.

Normally, this is true, especially in hardmode and you are not a heavy-armored melee character or you are good at dodge.
For DPS increasing, the menacing is slightly better than lucky consider the defense of mobs.

But, the average DPS is count by [basic damage X (1+Damage increasing %)-def/2] X (1+Crit chance %), all need a round up, so, as the damage and crit chance are multiply relation, sometimes changing a Menacing to Lucky may increase the damage(depends on many factors though). Then due to the damage is round up, sometimes lucky is better, as the menacing may failed to increase the damage of a weapon due to its low damage. Finally, if a mob's health is much more than your weapon's damage, but less the twice of it, then lucky may be a better choice for the pathetically mob.
In a conclusion, I normally treat them the same, as to save the money for reforge.

For the violent, the situation is more difficult, the melee speed is highly inconstant, and depending on the weapon's basic use time and modifier.
This is how to calculate it http://forums.terraria.org/index.php?profile-posts/167557/, note this melee speed only works on any melee weapons can have a speed modifier, like swords and shortswords.
And it also increases the velocity of sword beams and boomerang, and could increase the range of some melee weapons(this seems constant).
So, some times, a violent could greatly increase the DPS of a sword, sometimes could be useless, it needs some calculation to see whether a violent is useful.

As for quick and arcane, I don't think they are useful, especially when you and not a mage and have a wing.

 

[FlakMaster]

Here we go again with the whole "Defense is useless" thing.

By the way, the practical difference between Lucky and Menacing are negligible. Strictly speaking, however, I believe some folk proved that Lucky has a slight lead in DPS. This is because the best DPS comes with a balance of %crit and damage bonuses, and you usually get more damage than %crit from armour and emblems and the like.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

Lucky provides more consistent damage, while Menacing provides potentially higher damage in bursts at the cost of potentially lower damage as well. Over long periods, they even out.

I did tests in 1.2.4 with Shroomite and Snowman Cannon rounds. Lucky would take a consistent 37 to 38 rounds to defeat Spazmatism while Menacing would take anywhere from 34 to 41 rounds, but my field testing was considered "flawed" because it wasn't exactly matching up with projected graphs. However, now with stuff like Vortex and SDMG full Menacing is better if you keep up crit potions because you can hit nearly 100% crit rate in normal mode while still investing Menacing which is hilarious.

Anyway, Warding is cool. Dead DPS is no DPS after all, save full damage builds for multiplayer where you have friends to distract stuff.

 

[CellarDoor96]

snip

I'm having some serious trouble understanding your English, so I could be wrong, but... I think I get the general gist of what you're saying.

I heard somewhere that you can achieve your max DPS when both damage and crit chance bonuses are balanced out, but I haven't experimented with it personally. I just know that when it comes to only damage vs. only crit, you're better off with damage. I suppose it makes sense that a balance of both would be better than either, since damage bonuses are additive and only expand on the base damage of the weapon instead of on other bonuses, while crit chance added to a damage bonus would also take the damage bonus into account. Still, the difference can't be all that much, since if you have a crit bonus you're sacrificing an equivalent damage bonus.

Here we go again with the whole "Defense is useless" thing.

Well, of course, lol. What do you expect? That's like saying, "Here we go again with the whole 'Gravity on Earth is 9.8 m/s^2' thing."

Anyway, Warding is cool. Dead DPS is no DPS after all, save full damage builds for multiplayer where you have friends to distract stuff.

Warding works early game when your mobility is limited and enemies tend to do very low damage proportional to your health and armor, but once you get to around mid-hardmode, especially in expert, it drastically drops off in utility. Once you get to that point the only way it'll be worth it over damage is if you combine it with damage-reduction items like the Worm Scarf and high-defense armors. On its own Warding is garbage at endgame, especially if you try to use it to patch up low-defense armors like Shroomite and Spectre, which will just lead to you being mediocre at everything.

 

[Deamterr]

If you're the beginner in Terarria, I think you must reforge your accessories on Warding because beginners are really bad to dodging enemies' attacks.

But if you're a good Terraria player, I think you need the Menacing accsessories! Why?
Enemies' attacks aren't a problem because you are know their and you can dodge from them. That means what you don't need a lot of defence. And damage... Uh, I really like to have a great damage! It makes gameplay more comfortable and interesting.

P.S Except the Tank class, he needs the Warding accessories anyway.

 

[FlakMaster]

Well, of course, lol. What do you expect? That's like saying, "Here we go again with the whole 'Gravity on Earth is 9.8 m/s^2' thing."

You're saying that like what you think is purely fact and what I think is false. I guess you didn't understand anything about the whole 'depends on playstyle' bit I wrote about.

To elaborate for the purpose of this thread, Warding (or otherwise more defence) is useful to reach the threshold where you can 'infinitely' survive the boss and therefore are able to take it out trivially regardless of how much health they have. At the same time, it reduces weak and spammy attacks such as Destroyer Probe lasers and Plantera seeds to a more manageable amount. To take an example, Destroyer's Probe laser does 88 damage. With Titanium Melee and some buffs, 60 defence ish. That makes the lasers do 43 damage. That's a large figure to suffer consistently. Now, if we add in 24 defence from Warding, that negates it to 25 damage.

So, it comes down to either 42% damage reduction or 24% bonus damage? Pick your preference. And no, this is not a rhetorical question. Some people will die regardless of the damage boost they will have if they have the bonus damage. So, what fits people the most is often reliant on how skilled they are.

This scenario better applies to Plantera than Destroyer, as Destroyer dies quick to Jester Arrows/Stormbow with the right preparation. Plantera's attacks have slightly higher figures, but the figures still apply the fact that you get a similar, if not more (100 damage with the same defence as above gives a figure of 33%), of an overall damage reduction from warding than you do damage boost from menacing/lucky.

 

[CellarDoor96]

You're saying that like what you think is purely fact and what I think is false. I guess you didn't understand anything about the whole 'depends on playstyle' bit I wrote about.

To elaborate for the purpose of this thread, Warding (or otherwise more defence) is useful to reach the threshold where you can 'infinitely' survive the boss and therefore are able to take it out trivially regardless of how much health they have. At the same time, it reduces weak and spammy attacks such as Destroyer Probe lasers and Plantera seeds to a more manageable amount. To take an example, Destroyer's Probe laser does 88 damage. With Titanium Melee and some buffs, 60 defence ish. That makes the lasers do 43 damage. That's a large figure to suffer consistently. Now, if we add in 24 defence from Warding, that negates it to 25 damage.

So, it comes down to either 42% damage reduction or 24% bonus damage? Pick your preference. And no, this is not a rhetorical question. Some people will die regardless of the damage boost they will have if they have the bonus damage. So, what fits people the most is often reliant on how skilled they are.

This scenario better applies to Plantera than Destroyer, as Destroyer dies quick to Jester Arrows/Stormbow with the right preparation. Plantera's attacks have slightly higher figures, but the figures still apply the fact that you get a similar, if not more (100 damage with the same defence as above gives a figure of 33%), of an overall damage reduction from warding than you do damage boost from menacing/lucky.

You're misrepresenting the amount of damage reduction you get from Warding. That 42% figure you gave is the percentage of the Destroyer's attack after armor defense is already applied that you save; 42% of 43 is not that much. In reality, it's only about 20% of the attack's total damage that those Warding accessories saved you. Your armor already saves you over 50% of the attack's total damage. The question then becomes, would I rather have 50% damage reduction and 24% boosted damage or 70% damage reduction and 0% boosted damage? I'd gladly take the former any day.

Besides, after Plantera the effectiveness of Warding and even defense in general drops off even further, as enemies start to be able to do 200-300 damage (in expert mode) while the best armor blocks only 59 damage, 77 with full Warding. It becomes worth it again if you combine it with percent-damage-reduction bonuses, but short of that it's blatantly inferior to damage.

You're also ignoring the value of killing enemies quicker so that they have less time to deal damage to you, which becomes better than defense the moment enemies start dealing enough damage to you that their DPS while reduced by defense is better than the damage your defense saved you. Which happens about mid-hardmode.

By the way, unrelated to all of the stuff above, I looked into it a bit and did some quick calculations and I determined that damage and crit chance bonuses do in fact result in greater DPS the closer they are to one another (as long as crit chance doesn't go above 100%, natch). That means that if the difference between your damage and crit chance bonuses from other means is more than 24%, Lucky is the best prefix for you.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

The question then becomes, would I rather have 50% damage reduction and 24% boosted damage or 70% damage reduction and 0% boosted damage? I'd gladly take the former any day.

And some other people will happily choose the latter. Fun is subjective. If somebody wants to build defense stacking then by all means let them, what they do in single player isn't affecting your single player experience.

Saying one is "better" than the other is an opinionated statement, and has been said, depends entirely on somebody's playstyle.

 

[FlakMaster]

You're misrepresenting the amount of damage reduction you get from Warding. That 42% figure you gave is the percentage of the Destroyer's attack after armor defense is already applied that you save; 42% of 43 is not that much. In reality, it's only about 20% of the attack's total damage that those Warding accessories saved you. Your armor already saves you over 50% of the attack's total damage. The question then becomes, would I rather have 50% damage reduction and 24% boosted damage or 70% damage reduction and 0% boosted damage? I'd gladly take the former any day.

No, you're missing my point. That figure is the comparison of Warding vs Lucky/Menacing, which is the topic of this thread. Without the warding set, you'll be taking 43 damage. With it, you'll be taking 25. 42% difference in damage taken, simple as that.

Damage bonuses are simple because they add up. Defence is different, as it is exponentially effective depending on the damage figures.

You're also ignoring the value of killing enemies quicker so that they have less time to deal damage to you, which becomes better than defense the moment enemies start dealing enough damage to you that their DPS while reduced by defense is better than the damage your defense saved you. Which happens about mid-hardmode.

I've already acknowledged that yes, killing targets faster = less damage taken, however with this you have to be under the assumption that the player can handle the target before they die. This is not guaranteed, especially for bosses, because it depends on the player's skill. That DPS boost won't matter if the player cocks up constantly, but extra defence means they receive less punishment and thus can get past that threshold I keep talking about where they can reliably keep their health up to high levels.

You also have to be under the assumption that the player is immediately aware of enemy threats. What about those sneaky casters in the dungeon? What good will bonus damage do if the lost souls have already hit you a couple of times before you get a chance to react? Nothing. What about those Gastros firing from two miles away? Nothing. But with extra defence, you save yourself a chunk of health. And, as I've said before, with common enemies high damage boosts aren't a necessity when they die so fast anyway. Great, you killed that Giant Tortoise 1 second faster, you just saved your skin.

 

[felis]

I heard somewhere that you can achieve your max DPS when both damage and crit chance bonuses are balanced out, but I haven't experimented with it personally. I just know that when it comes to only damage vs. only crit, you're better off with damage. I suppose it makes sense that a balance of both would be better than either, since damage bonuses are additive and only expand on the base damage of the weapon instead of on other bonuses, while crit chance added to a damage bonus would also take the damage bonus into account. Still, the difference can't be all that much, since if you have a crit bonus you're sacrificing an equivalent damage bonus.

Let say you have a weapon with a 100 damage and 0% crit chance, 1 swing per second. So, its DPS is 100.
Then 100% damage: 200 DPS
Then 100% crit chance: 200 DPS too.
But 50% damage and 50% crit chance: 225 DPS.

Then, if the enemy has 40 defence, it would be:
Normally: 80 DPS
Then 100% damage: 180 DPS
Then 100% crit chance: 160 DPS too.
But 50% damage and 50% crit chance: 195 DPS.
Also, the maxium DPS is 60% dmg and 40% crit at 196.

Consider that most armor and accessories add damage much more than crit chance, change menacing to lucky may be better for DPS.

Other situation is like using weak weapons like minishark, with a 6 damage, then 1 lucky is better than one menacing.
For 5 accessories, you may want to use 3 menacing and 2 lucky instead of 5 menacing due to round up.

 

[Demogarose]

one thing I often see overlooked in the Menacing V Lucky debate is attack speed.

I won't get into math (I suck at it), but its fairly obvious that the faster something attacks, the more it is going to benefit from Crit.

 

[CellarDoor96]

And some other people will happily choose the latter. Fun is subjective. If somebody wants to build defense stacking then by all means let them, what they do in single player isn't affecting your single player experience.

Saying one is "better" than the other is an opinionated statement, and has been said, depends entirely on somebody's playstyle.

That was only my response to FlakMaster's single example, which wasn't really a good one. Like I said, as you progress through hardmode and enemies start doing more damage, defense loses its effectiveness. This is a fact. People can still have fun using Warding, and people can still win using Warding, but that doesn't mean it's the best thing to use.

In any case, if you want to go with the tank playstyle, then you'll need damage-reducing items like the Worm Scarf and Beetle armor, not just Warding. Defense by itself simply won't cut it.

No, you're missing my point. That figure is the comparison of Warding vs Lucky/Menacing, which is the topic of this thread. Without the warding set, you'll be taking 43 damage. With it, you'll be taking 25. 42% difference in damage taken, simple as that.

Damage bonuses are simple because they add up. Defence is different, as it is exponentially effective depending on the damage figures.

I understand your point, but you left out a big factor in order to skew the numbers in your favor. The fact is that in that specific scenario, full Warding only adds on 20% damage reduction to the reduction you're already getting. Armor by itself is plenty sufficient to enable you to take a decent number of hits.

Also, while defense might be "exponentially effective" as you increase it, it's also exponentially ineffective as monsters get stronger. And the trend in late hardmode is for enemies to get stronger at a much faster rate than you can increase your defense.

I've already acknowledged that yes, killing targets faster = less damage taken, however with this you have to be under the assumption that the player can handle the target before they die. This is not guaranteed, especially for bosses, because it depends on the player's skill. That DPS boost won't matter if the player cocks up constantly, but extra defence means they receive less punishment and thus can get past that threshold I keep talking about where they can reliably keep their health up to high levels.

If you're talking about dodging skill, then if you can't win a DPS race against a boss with pure damage, you won't be able to win against it with pure defense. This is because, as I said, damage shortens the time the boss is alive, such that you take less damage overall than if you'd converted those damage boosts into an equivalent amount of defense. This is true even if you just stand there and try to facetank it, in which case, yes, you probably wouldn't be able to beat most hardmode bosses with pure damage boosts, but you won't be able to beat them with pure defense boosts, either. While both would have the same result, however, if you were to take away the factor of death and just look at the amount of damage a player with infinite HP would take from a boss in each scenario, you'd find that the player with the higher damage would take less damage in total than the player with the higher defense. And as the player becomes more competent at dodging, this gap increases, since dodging by its very nature reduces the effectiveness of defense.

As for the "infinite survivability threshold" you're talking about, that's only attainable in late hardmode if you factor in other things besides defense, like health regen and damage reduction. Defense on its own cannot bring you to that point.

And if by "skill" you're referring to aiming skill, I'm assuming that the player is capable of hitting the enemy at least some of the time, yes. Beyond that, though, it doesn't make a difference, since assuming all other factors are equal, a player with maximum damage bonuses will always take less damage during a fight than a player with the same amount of defense bonuses.

You also have to be under the assumption that the player is immediately aware of enemy threats. What about those sneaky casters in the dungeon? What good will bonus damage do if the lost souls have already hit you a couple of times before you get a chance to react? Nothing. What about those Gastros firing from two miles away? Nothing. But with extra defence, you save yourself a chunk of health. And, as I've said before, with common enemies high damage boosts aren't a necessity when they die so fast anyway. Great, you killed that Giant Tortoise 1 second faster, you just saved your skin.

In situations where enemies take you off guard, then yes, defense would be better to have. But those situations happen so rarely, there really isn't much point in planning for them. I'm talking in generalities, not about very specific scenarios where defense might have a minute advantage for a split second. If it were possible, the best thing to do would be to switch immediately to defensive gear whenever you take damage and then switch immediately back to offensive gear, but that's not possible, so the best thing to do is to be as prepared as you can for the most important threats. Which in late hardmode means stacking damage.

And if you're killing enemies before they hit you anyway, then it doesn't matter whether you've got damage or defensive bonuses. Common enemies shouldn't even be a factor in how you build your character at endgame. Their threat is minimal compared to bosses and events.

Let say you have a weapon with a 100 damage and 0% crit chance, 1 swing per second. So, its DPS is 100.
Then 100% damage: 200 DPS
Then 100% crit chance: 200 DPS too.
But 50% damage and 50% crit chance: 225 DPS.

Then, if the enemy has 40 defence, it would be:
Normally: 80 DPS
Then 100% damage: 180 DPS
Then 100% crit chance: 160 DPS too.
But 50% damage and 50% crit chance: 195 DPS.
Also, the maxium DPS is 60% dmg and 40% crit at 196.

Consider that most armor and accessories add damage much more than crit chance, change menacing to lucky may be better for DPS.

Other situation is like using weak weapons like minishark, with a 6 damage, then 1 lucky is better than one menacing.
For 5 accessories, you may want to use 3 menacing and 2 lucky instead of 5 menacing due to round up.

Yeah, that's basically what my calculations showed, too. Pretty interesting, I wouldn't have thought it would work that way. And it makes sense that crit chance would be more effective than regular damage for weapons with low base damage, since the damage bonus has to boost them to a whole number before it does anything, but the DPS increase provided by crit chance isn't bound to integers.

one thing I often see overlooked in the Menacing V Lucky debate is attack speed.

I won't get into math (I suck at it), but its fairly obvious that the faster something attacks, the more it is going to benefit from Crit.

I'm kind of loathe to get into that too, but I don't really bother that much with melee speed anyway since very few weapons use it, even within the melee class. On my warrior character my only weapons that benefit from melee speed are Meowmere and Star Wrath, neither of which I'd use in a serious fight.

 

[Tsuki]

I prefer warding, but only when coupled with high damage reduction / defensive armor/accessories.

Just my preference. Actually killed expert mode destroyer without even swinging a single weapon, or using traps, or using healing statues. Using only warding accessories / defensive equips and buffsf. Was fun.

Dunno which I'd say is overall best, but I will say that your playstyle highly supplements your decision. People who are extremely mobile and can effortlessly dodge attacks have no need to mitigate damage as much.

 

[CellarDoor96]

I prefer warding, but only when coupled with high damage reduction / defensive armor/accessories.

Just my preference. Actually killed expert mode destroyer without even swinging a single weapon, or using traps, or using healing statues. Using only warding accessories / defensive equips and buffsf. Was fun.

What did you use to deal damage? Turtle armor, Solar Flare armor, summons, or something else?

Either way there's something really satisfying about trivializing something that used to be a threat to you, lol. It's one of the reasons I love using my own tank character, since he's so stacked with not just defense but also damage reduction and regen that he can shrug off stuff that would three- or four-shot my other characters. Takes him a long time to kill anything, but I did manage to beat the expert Moon Lord while barely moving an inch with him.

 

[Tsuki]

What did you use to deal damage? Turtle armor, Solar Flare armor, summons, or something else?

Either way there's something really satisfying about trivializing something that used to be a threat to you, lol. It's one of the reasons I love using my own tank character, since he's so stacked with not just defense but also damage reduction and regen that he can shrug off stuff that would three- or four-shot my other characters. Takes him a long time to kill anything, but I did manage to beat the expert Moon Lord while barely moving an inch with him.

The major damage came from Spore Sac. We were testing out how useful it was when it was first added, and that's when I got the idea to see if I could kill Expert Destroyer with it. And if I remember correctly, the Spore Sac has actually been buffed since then.

I don't remember for 100% sure, but I believe my accessories were...

Spore Sac
Worm Scarf
Charm of Myths
Bee Cloak
Frozen Turtle Shell
And I think Ankh Shield because the tiny +4 defense.

All warding.

and then I had Beetle Shell set, plus a tiny pool of honey (no summons at all) and a campfire, and several buff potions, in a tiny little arena where I could really only dodge left to right. Took me a few tries but it felt so good when I finally managed to pull it off.

 

[CellarDoor96]

The major damage came from Spore Sac. We were testing out how useful it was when it was first added, and that's when I got the idea to see if I could kill Expert Destroyer with it. And if I remember correctly, the Spore Sac has actually been buffed since then.

I don't remember for 100% sure, but I believe my accessories were...

Spore Sac
Worm Scarf
Charm of Myths
Bee Cloak
Frozen Turtle Shell
And I think Ankh Shield because the tiny +4 defense.

All warding.

and then I had Beetle Shell set, plus a tiny pool of honey (no summons at all) and a campfire, and several buff potions, in a tiny little arena where I could really only dodge left to right. Took me a few tries but it felt so good when I finally managed to pull it off.

Has Spore Sac been buffed? I don't remember that being in any of the changelogs. But in any case, yeah, it's pretty awesome. Not as good as a minion, but still very good. I use it mainly for farming and sometimes exploration since there are other accessories I'd rather have during a boss fight, but it really comes in handy when I do use it.

My tank's accessories are wings, Celestial Shell, Celestial Stone, Worm Scarf, Frozen Turtle Shell, and Charm of Myths, and when I just want to facetank something I'll replace the wings with a Cross Necklace. I used the Star Veil for a while until I realized that since the falling stars deal piercing damage, they'll often block damage from other piercing weapons I'm using like Meowmere or the Terrarian, so I replaced it with a regular Cross Necklace. Everything's Warding. With that setup and a bit of help from heart lanterns, campfires, and honey, virtually nothing can kill me, not even expert Moon Lord (as long as I block his laser with a roof).

Not only the Worm Scarf and FTS but also the Celestial Shell and Stone are some of the best defensive accessories in the game, since each one actually grants 120 HP of regen per minute, essentially a free Honeyfin. If you use both of them together you get 240 per minute, more than a Super Healing Potion, and at night 270 thanks to the werewolf buff. The other bonuses they give like the damage and melee speed are just the icing on the cake. In fact, they're probably my favorite accessories in the entire game; I use both of them on all my characters, no matter their build. They're just that good.

TBH HP regen is pretty underestimated in general, probably because none of the items that give it provide a numerical figure the same way defense-boosting ones do. It's difficult to tell concretely if it's better than defense on a one-to-one scale, but the sheer amount you can get easily from the Celestial Stone and Shell and even from Regen Potions makes them much better than any mere defense-boosting accessory.