Weapons & Equip Is the post bounce damage penalty for Chlorophyte arrows really necessary?

[J Bame]

the damage penalty applies only to the bullets base damage and not your total damage output like chlorophyte arrows do. This seemed so bizarre that I even tested it out in game wondering if it was a typo but no, that really is how it works!

Test again, this is not how this works. In the code a Projectile is not aware of the base damage of the Ammo item tied to it, and coding that would be extremely difficult for what would end up being a practically meaningless penalty. Nano Bullets are the exact same as Chloro Bullets.

Also, I can't believe that it hadn't occurred to me before but I just remembered that the dart rifle/gun and crystal darts also exist, which besides boosting a higher base damage than all the other dart types, it also has a much stronger smart bounce affect, able to do so six times compared to chlorophyte arrows one smart bounce, not to mention how much earlier it can be obtained. If a single smart bounce is such a powerful effect that it needs a massive 33% damage penalty applied to your total damage to balance it out, then why the hell is no one worried about crystal darts? It's like the more I look into this the more backwards it seems.

Crystal Darts are dummy OP. As in, "hold left click and all enemies in caves die" OP. They are a Razorblade Typhoon for early hardmode caves. And also, their output (at least for single targets) is much lower than Ichor darts or even Cursed Darts.

 

[Stonetribe]

You mean enemies reflecting bullets? that rarely happens and easy to avoid but I don't care if they remove damage penalty of nanite bullets.


Really? I didn't know that, then it barely affects weapons like sniper rifle, shroomite aromr is weird in the same way, IIRC it doesn't increase total damage like other armor sets but increases "weapon's damage" without increasing bullet/arrow/missile's damage

I was more referring to how enemies moving away from you can be an inconvenience, kind of like how too much knockback can make melee less effective.

Test again, this is not how this works. In the code a Projectile is not aware of the base damage of the Ammo item tied to it, and coding that would be extremely difficult for what would end up being a practically meaningless penalty. Nano Bullets are the exact same as Chloro Bullets.

Huh, yeah you're totally right. Not sure how I came to that conclusion, maybe I was just getting some unlucky damage numbers? I dunno, there's no good excuse.

Crystal Darts are dummy OP. As in, "hold left click and all enemies in caves die" OP. They are a Razorblade Typhoon for early hardmode caves. And also, their output (at least for single targets) is much lower than Ichor darts or even Cursed Darts.

Okay you're kind of contradicting yourself now. First you say that crystal darts are super overpowered, but then in the next sentence you go on to say how their alternatives are much better in certain situations, which is kind of the whole point of having different ammo types. But like, even assuming that crystal darts are op, don't you think that the fact chlorophyte arrows being able to only smart bounce a single time is enough to balance them even without a whopping 33% damage penalty to your total damage output?

I appreciate the nano bullet correction, but what happened to agreeing to disagree?

 

[Salty_]

The idea with the chlorophyte ammo is that they're aimbot in different situations. Chlorophyte bullets are aimbot if you have line of sight, Chlorohpyte arrows are aimbot if you don't have line of sight, which is a common occurrence in the jungle, temple, and dungeon. Both are made to be weaker than other options because of this.

The issue is that chlorophyte arrows don't reflect properly; they just go right back the way they came, which heavily limits their usage. If they reflected properly, you could bounce an arrow off several walls and hit an enemy that would be impossible to hit otherwise, and consistently as well.

in other words, it would be justified if they reflected like normal, but in their current state its too limited.

 

[Stonetribe]

The idea with the chlorophyte ammo is that they're aimbot in different situations. Chlorophyte bullets are aimbot if you have line of sight, Chlorohpyte arrows are aimbot if you don't have line of sight, which is a common occurrence in the jungle, temple, and dungeon. Both are made to be weaker than other options because of this.

The issue is that chlorophyte arrows don't reflect properly; they just go right back the way they came, which heavily limits their usage. If they reflected properly, you could bounce an arrow off several walls and hit an enemy that would be impossible to hit otherwise, and consistently as well.

in other words, it would be justified if they reflected like normal, but in their current state its too limited.

I don't think that's quite the case. Chlorophyte bullets absolutely can swerve around corners to hit enemies that aren't in your line of sight, but if chlorophyte arrows bounced normally then they could navigate around even more corners, and I totally support that because it sounds hella fun.

Regarding the damage, I wouldn't have any issues with chlorophyte arrows if they simply had a lower base damage like their bullet counterpart. Thing is, they apply a 33% penalty to your total damage, making the damage you lose out on disproportionately harsher, and I can't think of a good reason why that should be the case. Can you?

 

[J Bame]

Okay you're kind of contradicting yourself now. First you say that crystal darts are super overpowered, but then in the next sentence you go on to say how their alternatives are much better in certain situations, which is kind of the whole point of having different ammo types. But like, even assuming that crystal darts are op, don't you think that the fact chlorophyte arrows being able to only smart bounce a single time is enough to balance them even without a whopping 33% damage penalty to your total damage output?

Crystal Darts are op because they bounce and pierce a trillion times and never lose even 1% of their damage. Against one boss pierce is much much less useful, and you are not in a cave with tons of walls where the dart can bounce. Ther darts are much stronger against bosses because what Crystal Darts broken simply isn't made for bosses. I mention the DPS because it's important; Chloro Arrows are an Ichor arrow with a different side effect, Crystal Darts have much less single target DPS than the other 2 darts.

Chloro arrows bouncing a single time without penalty is not balanced, it's the best arrow in the game for general use. Ichor/Venom arrows will have similar DPS and a debuff but Chloro Arrows will be far more accurate. Holy Arrows will have higher peaks, but they need a lot of Armor Penetration, a Magic Quiver to improve their velocity, and above all they need you to move relatively little so the stars can actually hit. Piercing arrows all use Global or Static Immunity making them useless since every bow from now on is multishot. With these buffed Chloro Arrows all you need to do is shoot, and then you'll realize 90% of your shots hit things across the entire screen. They would have an extremely good side effect with no downside. It's like if you gave Chlorophyte bullets the same base damage as Venom Bullets. Nerf the homing all you want, so long as there is no real downside to the homing they would still be the best.

I think that's the part you don't understand. Yes, the smart bouncing with 67% penalty isn't very good. But the arrow itself is. You have to compare it to the alternative, which is simply inflicting Ichor on every hit.

I appreciate the nano bullet correction, but what happened to agreeing to disagree?

It's one thing to correct a new take you made, and another to continue a loop of "It's OP because it's Ichor Arrow with a much better side effect" and "I just don't see it that way"

 

[Stonetribe]

Crystal Darts are op because they bounce and pierce a trillion times and never lose even 1% of their damage. Against one boss pierce is much much less useful, and you are not in a cave with tons of walls where the dart can bounce. Ther darts are much stronger against bosses because what Crystal Darts broken simply isn't made for bosses. I mention the DPS because it's important; Chloro Arrows are an Ichor arrow with a different side effect, Crystal Darts have much less single target DPS than the other 2 darts.

Chloro arrows bouncing a single time without penalty is not balanced, it's the best arrow in the game for general use. Ichor/Venom arrows will have similar DPS and a debuff but Chloro Arrows will be far more accurate. Holy Arrows will have higher peaks, but they need a lot of Armor Penetration, a Magic Quiver to improve their velocity, and above all they need you to move relatively little so the stars can actually hit. Piercing arrows all use Global or Static Immunity making them useless since every bow from now on is multishot. With these buffed Chloro Arrows all you need to do is shoot, and then you'll realize 90% of your shots hit things across the entire screen. They would have an extremely good side effect with no downside. It's like if you gave Chlorophyte bullets the same base damage as Venom Bullets. Nerf the homing all you want, so long as there is no real downside to the homing they would still be the best.

Wait, but even without the multi target damage potential crystal darts can still smart bounce once against a single boss with no damage penalty. So why does it only become an issue with Chlorophyte arrows? Again, you're contradicting yourself.

And again, it'd be fine if chlorophyte arrows simply had a lower base damage compared to other arrows, but you haven't explained why they need a disproportionately harsher 33% penalty to your total damage output. All you said is that theoretically bullet firing weapons lose out on more since crystal bullets exist, which is circumstantial and not guaranteed with every shot. And while holy arrows can similarly deal extra instances of damage, albeit only 30% rather than 50%, this is also circumstantial and not guaranteed with every shot. (Also I don't think they are effected by armor penetration any differently than crystal bullets) And we're pointing this out because we're worried that the chlorophyte arrow smart bounce, which once again is circumstantial and not guaranteed with every shot (and even if it does proc still isn't guaranteed to actually hit) will otherwise be overpowered.

No.. No those are way too many variables to just assume such a harsh penalty is warranted. I'd be happy to hear you out if you can elaborate, otherwise I feel like the much simpler logic of just reducing the base damage makes way more sense.

 

[J Bame]

Wait, but even without the multi target damage potential crystal darts can still smart bounce once against a single boss with no damage penalty. So why does it only become an issue with Chlorophyte arrows? Again, you're contradicting yourself.

This is a false equivalence fallacy. "Chloro arrows smart bouncing with no penalty would be fine, because Crystal Darts can be effectively the same thing". The thing is, that arrows and darts have VERY different standards. Ichor dartss split into 2-5 this multiplies the DPS of your Dart gun by at LEAST 2x and can go up to 5x with some luck. Cursed darts leave a trail of flames that deal 75% of the dart's damage. If you shoot a dart at a boss there will be one flame created right before the dart connects, and the boss will be hit by both the flame and the Dart, so you will deal 1.75x, potentially more if more of the little flames hit.

Dart ammo is insanely strong, and that's because the dart guns themselves are actually low on stats. If any gun or bow could use dart ammo, it would become insanely powerful. This is why Chlorophyte Arrows are fine on bosses, but Crystal Darts are not. And why Crystal darts with a penalty on each bounce would be fine, but Chlorophyte arrows with 1 bounce with no penalty would be overpowered.

But you haven't explained why they need a disproportionately harsher 33% penalty to your total damage output

bro not again

All you said is that theoretically bullet firing weapons lose out on more since crystal bullets exist, which is circumstantial and not guaranteed with every shot.

Huh? Crystal bullets split on every single shot. The shards appear literally right next to the enemy, and while it's hard to tell if it gets hit by 1 or 2 of the shards, this is guaranteed with every shot and will always be better peak DPS than any other bullet can get.

Also I don't think they are effected by armor penetration any differently than crystal bullets

Multiplying damage by 0.3 ends up in very low damage per hit. Very low damage per hit gets affected very very significantly by a flat damage reduction by defense. Conversely, ignoring defense has a much better effect on low damage than on high damage. That's why both holy arrows and crystal bullets need armor penetration to peak.

it'd be fine if chlorophyte arrows simply had a lower base damage compared to other arrows [so you can get away with removing the penalty]

what would be the point, they are already good. In fact something like this would be bad for the game, it would be an arrow that wants you to mindlessly spam to get below average DPS instead of actually trying to aim. Dont make Chloro Bullets again.

 

[Stonetribe]

This is a false equivalence fallacy. "Chloro arrows smart bouncing with no penalty would be fine, because Crystal Darts can be effectively the same thing". The thing is, that arrows and darts have VERY different standards. Ichor dartss split into 2-5 this multiplies the DPS of your Dart gun by at LEAST 2x and can go up to 5x with some luck. Cursed darts leave a trail of flames that deal 75% of the dart's damage. If you shoot a dart at a boss there will be one flame created right before the dart connects, and the boss will be hit by both the flame and the Dart, so you will deal 1.75x, potentially more if more of the little flames hit.

Dart ammo is insanely strong, and that's because the dart guns themselves are actually low on stats. If any gun or bow could use dart ammo, it would become insanely powerful. This is why Chlorophyte Arrows are fine on bosses, but Crystal Darts are not. And why Crystal darts with a penalty on each bounce would be fine, but Chlorophyte arrows with 1 bounce with no penalty would be overpowered.

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to get at here. First you say that crystal darts are ridiculously op, then you tell me that the other darts are vastly superior in certain situations, but now you're saying that they're allowed to be insanely strong, but apparently crystal darts are just so incredibly broken even by that standard?

bro not again

Chloro arrows bouncing a single time without penalty is not balanced, it's the best arrow in the game for general use. Ichor/Venom arrows will have similar DPS and a debuff but Chloro Arrows will be far more accurate. Holy Arrows will have higher peaks, but they need a lot of Armor Penetration, a Magic Quiver to improve their velocity, and above all they need you to move relatively little so the stars can actually hit. Piercing arrows all use Global or Static Immunity making them useless since every bow from now on is multishot. With these buffed Chloro Arrows all you need to do is shoot, and then you'll realize 90% of your shots hit things across the entire screen. They would have an extremely good side effect with no downside. It's like if you gave Chlorophyte bullets the same base damage as Venom Bullets. Nerf the homing all you want, so long as there is no real downside to the homing they would still be the best.

I think that's the part you don't understand. Yes, the smart bouncing with 67% penalty isn't very good. But the arrow itself is. You have to compare it to the alternative, which is simply inflicting Ichor on every hit.

Okay firstly, you can't say that the damage difference is going to be negligible compared to Ichor and Venom arrows when the sole purpose of these debuffs is to increase your damage and deal significant damage over time. Secondly, holy arrow stars hitting their target is mostly dependent on an enemy's horizontal movement, their vertical movement has much less of an effect. Thirdly, I'm not asking that Chlorophyte arrows be given piercing, just that they don't incur such a harsh damage penalty after bouncing.

And lastly, okay please don't take offence to this but now I have to ask, have you actually tried using chlorophyte arrows? Even if you're intentionally going for smart bounces, you are not going to be hitting 90% of you're shots. Even in the best case scenarios, 90% is an exaggeration. You can't just ignore the limitations of smart bouncing and say that they'll be just as bad as chlorophyte bullets without the additional penalty.

Huh? Crystal bullets split on every single shot. The shards appear literally right next to the enemy, and while it's hard to tell if it gets hit by 1 or 2 of the shards, this is guaranteed with every shot and will always be better peak DPS than any other bullet can get.

They're guaranteed to split with each shot, but what isn't guaranteed is those shards hitting your intended target, or any target for that matter. It's pretty likely if it's moving towards you, but a lot less so if it's moving away. Just like with holy arrows, it'll increase your damage overall compared to other ammo types but can still be pretty circumstantial.

Multiplying damage by 0.3 ends up in very low damage per hit. Very low damage per hit gets affected very very significantly by a flat damage reduction by defense. Conversely, ignoring defense has a much better effect on low damage than on high damage. That's why both holy arrows and crystal bullets need armor penetration to peak.

Oh so you only meant that they're effected by defense a little more, not differently. Yes we can agree on that much lol.

what would be the point, they are already good. In fact something like this would be bad for the game, it would be an arrow that wants you to mindlessly spam to get below average DPS instead of actually trying to aim. Dont make Chloro Bullets again.

The point is that a 33% total damage penalty is disproportionately harsh compared to a lower base damage for just the ammo and that smart bouncing isn't anywhere near as reliable as you're making it out to be, especially compared to chloro bullets homing. You simply wouldn't get the same results from mindless spam with chloro arrows as you would with bullets. Earlier you said that the only thing balancing chloro bullets are them having a lower base damage compared to other ammo types. So let's just do the same thing with chloro arrows, simply remove the penalty and instead lower the base damage of the arrow itself, resulting in less damage compared to other arrows whether they bounce or not all while having a much weaker homing ability.

Look, I think that we're going to have to agree to disagree again because these posts are starting to turn into essays lol.

 

[J Bame]

You said this:

Thirdly, I'm not asking that Chlorophyte arrows be given piercing, just that they don't incur such a harsh damage penalty after bouncing.

as a reply to:

Piercing arrows all use Global or Static Immunity making them useless since every bow from now on is multishot.

I was going to make a reply but this part is where i've had enough. You are barely paying attention to what i'm saying at this point, and it's not just that quote, the entire reply is just Strawman's Fallacy of every single thing i said.

 

[chewythebigblackdog]

One of the points that Bame is getting at is that ammo types are not created equally, and this is accounted for by the stats of the weapons that use them.
Probably the easiest example is looking at the base damage of most rocket weapons. These are usually quite low, since rockets have insanely high

Dart weapons as a whole have relatively poor stats, so the ammo types can be made more powerful to compensate. This is why crystal darts are allowed to be as insane as they are, between smart bouncing and the ability to bounce between enemies. The other dart varieties have similar power level, with ichor's insane splitting ability and cursed's absurd flame trail.
Bullets are on the whole more powerful than arrows. Crystal bullets are stronger than holy arrows (since the arrows' delayed stars is a lot harder to enable than the shards, plus the shards do a higher % damage than the stars), and there's no real equivalent to chlorophyte bullets for arrows. This is why comparing to chlorophyte bullets isn't a fair comparison to make, and why comparing arrows to darts is a fool's errand.

I'll compare chlorophyte arrows to ichor and venom arrows.
For chlorophyte arrows to do more than venom arrows, (% of shots missed)*(% of smart bounced shots to hit)*(0.66)*weapon dps needs to be more than 30.
For chlorophyte arrows to do more than ichor arrows (assuming you have no other way to apply ichor), (% of shots missed)*(% of smart bounced shots to hit)*(0.66)*damage per arrow needs to be greater than 6.
In situations where you are fighting enemies/bosses with small hitboxes and there's terrain nearby, both of these aren't particularly difficult to have happen.

And if you are fighting something big and slow where you won't miss shots, that's what holy arrows are for.

 

[Stonetribe]

One of the points that Bame is getting at is that ammo types are not created equally, and this is accounted for by the stats of the weapons that use them.
Probably the easiest example is looking at the base damage of most rocket weapons. These are usually quite low, since rockets have insanely high

Dart weapons as a whole have relatively poor stats, so the ammo types can be made more powerful to compensate. This is why crystal darts are allowed to be as insane as they are, between smart bouncing and the ability to bounce between enemies. The other dart varieties have similar power level, with ichor's insane splitting ability and cursed's absurd flame trail.
Bullets are on the whole more powerful than arrows. Crystal bullets are stronger than holy arrows (since the arrows' delayed stars is a lot harder to enable than the shards, plus the shards do a higher % damage than the stars), and there's no real equivalent to chlorophyte bullets for arrows. This is why comparing to chlorophyte bullets isn't a fair comparison to make, and why comparing arrows to darts is a fool's errand.

I'll compare chlorophyte arrows to ichor and venom arrows.
For chlorophyte arrows to do more than venom arrows, (% of shots missed)*(% of smart bounced shots to hit)*(0.66)*weapon dps needs to be more than 30.
For chlorophyte arrows to do more than ichor arrows (assuming you have no other way to apply ichor), (% of shots missed)*(% of smart bounced shots to hit)*(0.66)*damage per shot needs to be greater than 6.
In situations where you are fighting enemies/bosses with small hitboxes and there's terrain nearby, both of these aren't particularly difficult to have happen.

And if you are fighting something big and slow where you won't miss shots, that's what holy arrows are for.

Huh, I was not expecting to be hit with actual equations like that. I'll be honest and admit still having trouble making sense of it, so I think that I'm just going to have to concede and assume that yes, the post bounce damage penalty really is necessary.

 

[chewythebigblackdog]

I do agree with you somewhat that it's a pretty harsh penalty, but I think it should stay as is. I say this not because of balance, but rather because of how you'd actually use them. If there weren't any penalty to the bounces, there'd be no reward to hitting your shots, since the smart bounce makes it quite likely that a miss turns into a hit anyways. Because of this, shooting them into the ground to take more advantage of smart bounce would probably be the best way to use them. I feel like bows should stay as the weapon type that requires a bit more aim compared to guns (which have higher velocity, no arcs, and access to chlorophyte bullets).

The equations were more to show that it doesn't take a lot to get decent output out of chlorophyte arrows. I underrated them myself, and should probably start using them more.

 

[Flint🪓]

Kinda late here but I want to mention that chloro arrows are really good with Daedalus stormbow, it migates the issue of the bow agaisnt small targets and does not give a penalty unlike holy arrows.

So in a nutshell, the penalty should stay.