• Journey's End on PC - Find info here and here. Please report bugs and issues for PC 1.4 and 1.4.1 to Re-Logic here.
  • Journey's End on Mobile - Find info here. Report bugs for Mobile 1.4 to DR Studios at this link and give as much detail as possible.
  • 1.4 will bring many changes to the PC version. We strongly advise making plans to back up your worlds and players prior to updating your game. More details here.
  • Console and Switch - The latest news can be found here. To report a bug, please use this link.

Journey's End 1.4: Official Item Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

ShinyLine

Terrarian
Or at least a Shadowflame Whip... talk about an ironic enemy.

(Dont think Tiki shoild get it as it has higher summon count than Spooky. Spooky getting it makes more sense with the Dark Harvest, but its unlikely any will get it. Maybe they could reduce the Spooky summon count by 1 so it has 2 less than Tiki and then add the whip range/speed.)
As of 1.4 Tiki and Spooky Armor have the same minion count, and Tiki gets immediately replaced by Spooky. But well, Tiki Armor is more of a "Minion" Armor so they can do the same thing like with Bee and Obsidian Armor, one is for +Minion DPS/-Whip DPS and the other is for +Whip DPS/-Minion DPS.
 
If we'll don't have more Summoner Armors with "Whip Playstyle" (I only can see the Tiki Armor for that), why not an Accessory?
This is interesting.

First, I’ll point out that summoners also already have whip accessory(ies) in the form of Feral Claws +, which both have the enormous benefit of whip autoswing as well as small but noticeable speed boosts. Berserker Glove in particular is valuable for summoners, granting both whip benefits and a powerful 8 defense.

Anyway, I think Tiki being made a whip armor could be cool, but the gap between Hallowed and Spooky would be pretty large, and usually you use Tiki to get gear suitable for the Pumpkin Moon and farm for Spooky anyway so it isn’t quite useless. In order for a big whip set in late Hardmode, we would probably need new items.

It’s never gonna happen as it is now, but I do think it’d be neat to have lategame whip sets. Summoner would be more branched out between summon focus or whip focus, like how Melee for example can alternate between defensive or offensive builds. Game is way past the new items phase, but it’s cool to think about.
 

ShinyLine

Terrarian
I’ll point out that summoners also already have whip accessory(ies) in the form of Feral Claws +, which both have the enormous benefit of whip autoswing as well as small but noticeable speed boosts.
I forgot to say that the Accessory will be for more Range, something that is extremely useful with only Obsidian Armor.
 

NeoPhantom

Skeletron Prime
This is interesting.

First, I’ll point out that summoners also already have whip accessory(ies) in the form of Feral Claws +, which both have the enormous benefit of whip autoswing as well as small but noticeable speed boosts. Berserker Glove in particular is valuable for summoners, granting both whip benefits and a powerful 8 defense.

Anyway, I think Tiki being made a whip armor could be cool, but the gap between Hallowed and Spooky would be pretty large, and usually you use Tiki to get gear suitable for the Pumpkin Moon and farm for Spooky anyway so it isn’t quite useless. In order for a big whip set in late Hardmode, we would probably need new items.

It’s never gonna happen as it is now, but I do think it’d be neat to have lategame whip sets. Summoner would be more branched out between summon focus or whip focus, like how Melee for example can alternate between defensive or offensive builds. Game is way past the new items phase, but it’s cool to think about.
Ah, good old branch outs... reminds me when Beetle Armor, Shroomite Armor and Spectre Armor were added. Shame that Summoner never got s similar treatment in that regards. Minion, Whip & Sentry similar to Shroomite was ideal.

Oh well
 

ShinyLine

Terrarian
It's so sad that not even an Accessory with the exact same Whip Range effect from the Obsidian Armor can be added, because trying to use the Firecracker or Durendal vs. Mechanical Bosses or Plantera in Master Mode it's not a good idea.

(It can be like the Gladiator and Cobalt Shield, Set Bonus/Accessory, but well...)

EDIT: With the upcoming Obsidian nerf there's space for using this Accessory without using the Obsidian Armor like the entire Hardmode. (I did that, the extra Range is extremely good.)
 

NeoPhantom

Skeletron Prime
Actually, I think that Balance-wise its impossible to add whip-range increasing effects to hardmode armors or accessories.

Think about it, you can fight Empress of Light immediately after Plantera and get Kaleidoscope. That whip has the same range as the Solar Eruption at base with the latest update. With Sluggish it already becomes longer than the Solar Eruption. I cant even image how long it is if you stack it with Obsidian Armor’s 50% whip length. That range is enough to really make many bosses much easier than intended due to attacking from much farther range and thus easier dodging.

(actually, would someone mind posting a comparison of the Kaleidoscope in those situations)

Basically, so long as the Kaleidoscope becomes broken with the effects it wont happen. If they DID add the accesory, you can kiss goodbye to the recent whip-range increase in the update in order to balance it out OR to slower modifiers making whips longer (maybe both). On the other hand the effect cannot be given to Tiki or Spooky because the Kaleidoscope can be obtained immediately afterwards, necessitating a direct nerf to the Kaleidoscope’s range in turn.

With said things, only Spider or Forbidden are viable options for adding the whip-range effect. Given the Forbidden armor already has its own thing as a hybrid armor plus the set bonus, the last choice is the Spider Armor who has nothing special to it. However doing so poses the problem that it is obtained so early in hardmode and would make the Forbidden Armor even more obsolete for pure summoners. (Thematically it would fit if there was a Web-based Whip though).
 
Actually, I think that Balance-wise its impossible to add whip-range increasing effects to hardmode armors or accessories.

Think about it, you can fight Empress of Light immediately after Plantera and get Kaleidoscope. That whip has the same range as the Solar Eruption at base with the latest update. With Sluggish it already becomes longer than the Solar Eruption. I cant even image how long it is if you stack it with Obsidian Armor’s 50% whip length. That range is enough to really make many bosses much easier than intended due to attacking from much farther range and thus easier dodging.

(actually, would someone mind posting a comparison of the Kaleidoscope in those situations)

Basically, so long as the Kaleidoscope becomes broken with the effects it wont happen. If they DID add the accesory, you can kiss goodbye to the recent whip-range increase in the update in order to balance it out OR to slower modifiers making whips longer (maybe both). On the other hand the effect cannot be given to Tiki or Spooky because the Kaleidoscope can be obtained immediately afterwards, necessitating a direct nerf to the Kaleidoscope’s range in turn.

With said things, only Spider or Forbidden are viable options for adding the whip-range effect. Given the Forbidden armor already has its own thing as a hybrid armor plus the set bonus, the last choice is the Spider Armor who has nothing special to it. However doing so poses the problem that it is obtained so early in hardmode and would make the Forbidden Armor even more obsolete for pure summoners. (Thematically it would fit if there was a Web-based Whip though).
Whip speed no longer has an antisynergy with range. In 1.4.1, the Speed modifier properly makes the whip swing more often with no effect on size, and the Size modifier correctly makes it longer.

On a separate note, according to the wiki - while Kaleidoscope now has 30 tiles of range, Morning Star has 45!. Morningstar needed this range between the weak tag effect and the painful speed, but I think it shows that having large effective whip range isn’t a no-go.

Also, a range accessory or armor set would - well, take up armor sets or accessory slots, so you’re modifying your build and weakening other aspects to accomplish this range. IMO, this would be a good trade off. Lategame whips are actually well balanced in power after 1.4.1 now that they have better general stats and flask compatiability, but I don’t think it would hurt to allow summoners to have more whip oriented builds.

Now that I think about it, I’m wondering if it would be possible to create a pseudo lategame whip build using the Old One Army’s melee sets for whip speed. Probably wouldn’t be as effective as even postnerf Obsidian Armor, but it’d be interesting to try.
 
Last edited:

ShinyLine

Terrarian
That whip has the same range as the Solar Eruption at base with the latest update. With Sluggish it already becomes longer than the Solar Eruption
Whips' Range as of 1.4.1 doesn't benefit from slow Modifiers.

And yeah, this whole thing only comes to my mind after using Obsidian + literally every Whip, and it's so good that I think it deserves some love in HM. Btw, I only mentioned Range, not the Speed from Obsidian Armor, so that is not extremely OP. (atleast in terms of DPS)

It's so powerful with Obsidian Armor because of the +43% Damage and +50% Speed, but if you leave the Range alone it's only safer to use the Tag Damage or Firecracker, not soooo powerful for killing Bosses. Maybe 25-33% in the Accessory instead of 50%? Idk.
 

NeoPhantom

Skeletron Prime
Ah, did not notice that change with the modifiers, though if size still modifies length the issue remains only with modifiers that increase size (Large & Massive) though Legendary is still preferable though its speed increase counteracts the size increase.
 
wat

Without Obsidian I see them both a little shorter than 30-45 tiles, maybe even 24 (KD) and 16 (MS)
Disregard that, I was looking at whip speed instead of range. The wiki apparently hasn’t yet updated the values for the range.

Anyway, I still believe that having more whip range gear in the lategame wouldn’t hurt, of course that’s a thing for the modding community as content development in vanilla is essentially closed.
 

ShinyLine

Terrarian
Disregard that, I was looking at whip speed instead of range. The wiki apparently hasn’t yet updated the values for the range.

Anyway, I still believe that having more whip range gear in the lategame wouldn’t hurt, of course that’s a thing for the modding community as content development in vanilla is essentially closed.
Well, I was hoping for a second Breastplate for Spooky Armor, you lose 2 Minions but gain some Whips bonuses. Idk, it's something.
 

NeoPhantom

Skeletron Prime
True dat, as for the pseudo armor you mentioned... Im guessing you mean the Shinobi Infiltrator?

30% less speed
17% more summon damage
No whip range increase
But better mobility and crit
 

marulok

Terrarian
Well, I was hoping for a second Breastplate for Spooky Armor, you lose 2 Minions but gain some Whips bonuses. Idk, it's something.
That's... actually a great idea. Shame that no new items will be added anymore. It'd fill the "Something special for post-plantera" theme someone mentioned earlier.

Oh yeah, in regards to Chlorophyte armor as material even though discussion is closed, im suggesting for an option to either craft the Shroom/ spectre armor with either pure Shroom/Spectre bars or a mixture of both the armour and a reduced amount of bars. Example:
Shroomite breastplate recipes:
18 shroom bar (I might be wrong, just assume that's the cost)
Chlorophyte chestplate, 8 shroom bars, and optionally x mushrooms.

The second recipe is technically more expensive, but it vastly reduced the opportunity cost of Chlorophyte armour.

If my calculations are correct, it'd add only 8 new recipes assuming that you can't use a melee helmet for shroomite and ranged helmet for spectre.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
(Dont think Tiki shoild get it as it has higher summon count than Spooky. Spooky getting it makes more sense with the Dark Harvest, but its unlikely any will get it. Maybe they could reduce the Spooky summon count by 1 so it has 2 less than Tiki and then add the whip range/speed.)
Spooky got an extra minon in 1.4 it is now objectively better than tiki.
 
I have to say, I don’t understand why people keep saying Tiki is useless now.

Yeah, Spooky is stronger, 28% more damage for only 5 less defense and the same minion profit. But it does also come later in progression. Most summoners would want to use Tiki to get the Morningstar or other summoner item, as well as to force the Pumpkin Moon. Using Spider or Hallowed over Tiki for the Pumpkin Moon puts you in a more difficult position. Spider or Hallowed have less defense, damage and minions than Tiki. Granted, Tiki doesn’t last very long, but it still fills a valuable role for making sure Summoners don’t have a tough time getting Spooky.

Most of the time, it’s also easier to get Tiki. It’s easier to spend a good chunk of money for an armor set than it would be to farm out 3 Pumpkin Moons with the same gear.

It’s like saying Adamanatite or Titanium are useless because of Hallowed. Hallowed is obviously better than both, and only comes slightly after in progression. But Adamantite/Titanium are still good for taking out the first mech a few times to get Hallowed, so they aren’t useless.
 

NeoPhantom

Skeletron Prime
I have to say, I don’t understand why people keep saying Tiki is useless now.

Yeah, Spooky is stronger, 28% more damage for only 5 less defense and the same minion profit. But it does also come later in progression. Most summoners would want to use Tiki to get the Morningstar or other summoner item, as well as to force the Pumpkin Moon. Using Spider or Hallowed over Tiki for the Pumpkin Moon puts you in a more difficult position. Spider or Hallowed have less defense, damage and minions than Tiki. Granted, Tiki doesn’t last very long, but it still fills a valuable role for making sure Summoners don’t have a tough time getting Spooky.

Most of the time, it’s also easier to get Tiki. It’s easier to spend a good chunk of money for an armor set than it would be to farm out 3 Pumpkin Moons with the same gear.

It’s like saying Adamanatite or Titanium are useless because of Hallowed. Hallowed is obviously better than both, and only comes slightly after in progression. But Adamantite/Titanium are still good for taking out the first mech a few times to get Hallowed, so they aren’t useless.
Yup, by the same logic all early game metal armors (copper, tin, iron, lead, Silver, Tungsten) are useless because you can get Gold/Platinum just by digging.

And that’s definitely untrue.
 

qwerty3.14

Terrarian
I have to say, I don’t understand why people keep saying Tiki is useless now.

Yeah, Spooky is stronger, 28% more damage for only 5 less defense and the same minion profit. But it does also come later in progression. Most summoners would want to use Tiki to get the Morningstar or other summoner item, as well as to force the Pumpkin Moon. Using Spider or Hallowed over Tiki for the Pumpkin Moon puts you in a more difficult position. Spider or Hallowed have less defense, damage and minions than Tiki. Granted, Tiki doesn’t last very long, but it still fills a valuable role for making sure Summoners don’t have a tough time getting Spooky.

Most of the time, it’s also easier to get Tiki. It’s easier to spend a good chunk of money for an armor set than it would be to farm out 3 Pumpkin Moons with the same gear.

It’s like saying Adamanatite or Titanium are useless because of Hallowed. Hallowed is obviously better than both, and only comes slightly after in progression. But Adamantite/Titanium are still good for taking out the first mech a few times to get Hallowed, so they aren’t useless.
Tiki isn't just trying to compete with spooky its also trying to compete with hallowed. I feel tiki doesn't have enough of an offensive advantage to justify giving up on hallowed armor's set bonus.
Although tiki has 30% summon damage compared to hallowed armor's 17% hallowed also gives minor buff to non summon weapons, so unless whips are your only primary weapon the damage bonuses are pretty competitive. Sure its got an extra minion but is that worth holy protetion?

I think tiki should get some sort of whip bonus, that would distinguish it pretty well from hallowed armor, as that 13% extra summon damage (vs. hallows 7% damage and crit) is only going to be noticeable when using whips anyway.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom