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WIP Minion Biomes?! Wieldable Minions?! Do Summoners even go to Class...?

Level to which we need this?

  • Shia Labeouf said "DO IT!" - beyond 100% if that existed

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Where has this thread been all my life?! - 99%~

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • This or anything like it, Re-Logic, please! - 80%

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Awesome, but I'm probably sticking with my Star Wrath and Last Prisim - 50.01%

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • Summoners can suck-it... us of Throwing Class are the real vitoms! - 20%

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Make like an NPC and kill yourself - 0%

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Face a 1000 flying-Medusa and Moon Lords you ####! - below reasoning if that existed

    Votes: 1 9.1%

  • Total voters
    11

Muteness

Terrarian
Before we get to the main topic I need to clarify something I see countless people missing, completely over looking at times and just out right not thinking about at all.

WIP stands for Work in Progress. The chances are you're thinking you know this and didn't need reminding, statistically though you're probably wrong. I don't have stats but if I were to guess I'd say if I wasn't Mute that at least half if not more of people read and formulate many thoughts ignoring this. These types of people apparently frequently feel compelled to share these thoughts, making a huge majority of comments. This is all from my personal prespective of observation mind you, this is what I saw and thought. There's a different between opinion and fact which I'll touch on later.

Now there's no doubt that even after typing this and highlighting this in the OP I'm still going to read comments I contribute to these lines of actions, telling me this is incomplete... DON'T DO THAT! Something that's a "work in progress" being incomplete? Heavens forbid! How dare people do that! Obviously if you begin work you should have immediately finished it.

Here's a thought though: Instead, give your best shot at constructive feedback about what's wrong, what can do with changing. You don't need to know the solution to a problem to point out there is a problem, so to the same note you shouldn't skip making a comment because you didn't think of how to change it. You got a problem you, you tell people. However it's against forum rules to couple this with insults or to simply state "I don't like and/or hate this". Same goes for positive too, no "this is good", "I support" and "love it". Comments are meant to be constructive as much as possible. If you like it then click the "like" button down below. It may be boring but those are the forums rules.

I'm very tempted to make the above its own thread, we'll see.


Personal Requests for Commenting:

  • These are additional Requests On My Behalf before you post a comment, these encourage following, but Are Not offical rules for the forum and aren't designed to infinge them
  • You Do Not need to recall everything to make comments but You Must fully know everything above, in Personal Requests for Commenting and both Digest Version / In-Depth Explanations
  • Do Not make single line comments that only discerns things such as or similar to "I support/I don't support this", "I can't think of anything else to add" or "I like/I don't like this". Explain positives or negatives in detail
  • Do Not make comments that Only state opening thread is incomplete, it is still being worked on. If at any point I do not intend to continue this I will specify whether it's because I've ran out of idea for the time being or am completely satified with the current results, at which point I'll decide if thread requires being locked
  • If I comment that you or other people aren't contributing to the thread due to arguments; it is a recommendation to drop the subject and get back on topic
  • There are no acceptible excuses to breaking any of these requests, rules of Player Suggestions: Rules & Guidelines or Rule Changes Regarding Suggestion Forum Behavior. Please correct minor infractions if you notice them

So in the title I asked if summoners go to class. What I meant by this was can they count as class combat like melee, range and magic? Now they've receive something pretty big from 1.3 in my humble opinion; the Summoner Emblem. This is what I imagine is an equivalent of graduating by the devs, it's some kind of licence that gives right to be recognised as something you can fight with... but is it? Is it really?

What does combat mean in video games? Don't Answer That! I'll answer for you: It's an active means by which you do something against something or someone else to simultaneously avoid being given a failure state and achieve success whilst having the opposite result happen to the opposition.
... What, you don't like my definition...? TOUGH! My thread, my tiny spec of power!
Fine... I'll also put it in my layman terms. *Clears throat*
Hit things so they die before you.

There's something that doesn't match-up though... How can Summoner count as a form of combat if the summoner doesn't actively use summon damage? Minions aren't a form of the summoner attacking, they are their own things doing their own attacks. Look at him; he's just swinging a Meowmare, firing an S.D.M.G and sometimes casting spells... OY! Wrong Class Mate! This needs fixing, doesn't it?

Summoners need to actively use their own method of combat, this is what I and some other people believe. Even if you wanted to take "the thrower class" as far as you could for a combat style, at least you'd be actively using "throwing damage", which is more than can be said about summoners. So below are my two current concepts. If I see anymore from comments I like enough, I'll expand upon them and add them below as well! By the way I claim no credit on these ideas, these have been inspired by things I saw on this forum. If you've seen something similar in another thread, please post it below or just message me. I'll confirm the validity and link them in this. Why? It's because people interpret things differently from each other. Who knows, maybe you won't like my version of summoner idea but will love someone else's.

Now before we begin... and some of you may be p'sed at me by now for making you read all this before even getting to the part you wanted to see - which the thought of by the way gives me the biggest smile - I'd like to tell you you're in luck! It just so happens that I've made a readers' digest version of each idea. Laz-, I mean... people who don't want to go super in-depth can see what this thread's about and those who are interested will (hopefully) get all the details they desire.

Minion Biomes
This is actually harder to describe than you'd expect from the title, or at least I think so. This combines two concepts together the Ice Rod and the Sandgun, result being a weapon that uses mana but applies summon damage. Just like with the Ice Rod you can click where to place blocks, whilst travelling they deal damage to things they pasted through like with the Sandgun, these are not solid though, they are a new form of liquid... kinda... It is suspended in mid air like blocks but has liquid collision rules. You and Players on your team can move freely through it without slowing down, everyone else experiences slowing effects similar to that of Honey. When there are enough blocks on screen additional minions appear and attack enemies around them. These blocks expire after a set time and if there aren't enough to count as a biome the minions instantly disappear. This means in order to maintain it you need to fire a minimum amount of times every few seconds. The minions are limited to stay in areas that count towards their biome.

Currently undecided details:
How to handle tethering minions from biome. Ideas so far are; free to attack anywhere as long players remain in mini biome or they can only move/attack so far from the respective blocks

Damage values across the board

Everything basically

If you'd like to take a crack at designing a balanced example of this I'd be happy to feature it here. If you don't want your creation to be changed a lot or in certain ways you can message me first and we'll discuss it.

Wieldable Minions
The idea is Piranha Gun and variations inspired by it but applies summon damage and are far more versatile. I think the weapons not counting towards max minion capacity is a must. These unlike the Piranha Gun will cost mana but at an exceedingly low rate, so something in the area of 2~ mana per second.
  1. You hold left mouse button down to have a minion constantly follow your cursor as it attacks everything in a limited range around it.
  2. You fire minions similar to that of the Piranha Gun per click and have a maximum limited (either its own cap or your max minion capacity) that attach to enemies and deal damage for limited time. Perhaps the max has a default of 3 for example and you can fire a forth if you have an available minion slot you're currently not using.
  3. When left mouse is held a targetting circle appear that your existing minions all target things in and apply bonus damage and/or effects on their attacks when in/around this circle.
Currently undecided details:
How to handle tethering minions from cursor and/or targeting in general

What delays are needed (if any) between firing/swinging/using etc weapon

Damage values across the board

Everything basically

If you'd like to take a crack at designing balanced examples of anything above, I'd be happy to feature it here. If you don't want your creation to be changed a lot or in certain ways you can message me first and we'll discuss it.


Comment, Rate, Subscribe

Wait, wrong place for that. Uh...

I'm announcing a miniature competition.

Contestants submit as detailed as possible creations pertaining to concept designs outlined above. Winners are decided by depth of their creations and will have theirs featured in the OP and accreditation annotations will be listed for your work. Submissions will keep their original stats and functions but presentation may be changed. However, if I'd like to make any changes to the item(s) themselves before featuring I will inform you and explain why. You are then free to negotiate or deny said changes. If there isn't an agreement then I'll have to decide to put it up as you want it or not at all.
 
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Hmm... I think the Minion Guns are the best way to go about this. (Oh, don't forget, Slime Mount and Unicorn Mount do Summon Damage and are effected by Summon Damage modifiers. :3c)

That being said, I've got an idea for the lowest level one. :3

Vulture Tome
10 summon damage
Very Weak Knockback
Summons a guided Vulture minion
(The vulture would fly at them kinda slowly, but would consistently damage enemies with... hmm... I'd say Piercing type damage so you can still damage it with your minions / slime mount, just like you can with Ravens + spear traps)

I'd say crafting it with some Books + Antlion Mandibles at a bookcase would be fine, since you can find enough books in the Dungeon Entrance, usually, and Antlion Mandibles need more uses, ha ha.
 

Muteness

Terrarian
Hmm... I think the Minion Guns are the best way to go about this. (Oh, don't forget, Slime Mount and Unicorn Mount do Summon Damage and are effected by Summon Damage modifiers. :3c)

That being said, I've got an idea for the lowest level one. :3

Vulture Tome
10 summon damage
Very Weak Knockback
Summons a guided Vulture minion
(The vulture would fly at them kinda slowly, but would consistently damage enemies with... hmm... I'd say Piercing type damage so you can still damage it with your minions / slime mount, just like you can with Ravens + spear traps)

I'd say crafting it with some Books + Antlion Mandibles at a bookcase would be fine, since you can find enough books in the Dungeon Entrance, usually, and Antlion Mandibles need more uses, ha ha.
Appreciate the effort but that might be a little too early in the game for a weapon like that. Even melee with its insane spoils for choice can only craft a yoyo of 4 base damage and limited reach/use time. I think an appropriate means time to get that is after being Sekeltron. It's not about the damage, it's about the easy of use and what options a player has during that stage of the game. I think it needing bones to craft and upping the damage to 16 would be good. I know summoners have it hard early game but even so; having a dungeon tier of weapon you can craft with easy helps them a lot.

Now that I think about it... Such an early tier item should have limited range from your character, and perhaps it shouldn't be flying. Now an Antlion, that could work. It's kind of combining the idea of sentries with player used items. How's this?

Type Weapon
Damage - 16 (Summon)
Knockback - 2
Max stack - 1
Velocity - 15
Critical chance 4%
Rarity Rarity - Blue
Use time - 31 (Slow)
Tooltip - "Command hords of Antlion from beneath the sands"
Sell - 60 Silver

Antlion mionions would rise up from the ground per *swing* from first instance of solid block beneath you (platforms not counted), going two blocks either side of your centre, total area five blocks. Auto fire because screw pointless clicking. They complete a short animation of borrowing up before shooting non-sand making projectiles once each and lower back into the ground, if auto swing is held an additional Antlion spawns per three uses. Contact with them does 8 damage per second with constant knockback of 1. They fire at your current cursor's location when they are ready. Projectiles affected by gravity so basically copy/paste Antlions but without the crappy firing arc limit.

The weapon would perform worse if you kept running one direction and the as Antlions would trail behind due to cast delay. Intented use; good for defending in open areas using vertical manuves instead of horozontal ones, so the idea is holding your ground, just like the ferocious Antlions themselves! (non-charger kind, screw those guys)
 
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Appreciate the effort but that might be a little too early in the game for a weapon like that. Even melee with its insane spoils for choice can only craft a yoyo of 4 base damage and limited reach/use time. I think an appropriate means time to get that is after being Sekeltron. It's not about the damage, it's about the easy of use and what options a player has during that stage of the game. I think it needing bones to craft and upping the damage to 16 would be good. I know summoners have it hard early game but even so; having a dungeon tier of weapon you can craft with easy helps them a lot.

Now that I think about it... Such an early tier item should have limited range from your character, and perhaps it shouldn't be flying. Now an Antlion, that could work. It's kind of combining the idea of sentries with player used items. How's this?

Type Weapon
Damage - 16 (Summon)
Knockback - 2
Max stack - 1
Velocity - 15
Critical chance 4%
Rarity Rarity - Blue
Use time - 32 (Slow)
Tooltip - Command hords of Antlion from beight the sands
Sell - 60 Silver

So Antlion mionions would rise up from the ground per *swing*, and the item is auto fire because screw pointless clicking. Every three summons you gain an additional Antlion, they complete a short animation of borrowing up before shooting non-sand making projectiles once each and lower back into the ground. Contact with them does 8 damage persecond with constand knockback of 1. They fire at your current cursor's location when they are ready. Projectiles affected by gravity so basically copy/paste Antlions but without the crappy firing arc limit.
Hmm, I like the idea. Combine it with the armor I made up he other day, and we're golden! xD

(It was supposed to be start-tier summoner gear that gave you an Antlion sentry minion that you could then use to go farm slimes for that staff. After all, antlions are pretty easy to kill with the copper shortsword / pickaxe / axe)

But yeah, I see what you're saying. It's like comparing the minishark and Musket. One shoots super fast, the other does 32 damage every so often.
 
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Muteness

Terrarian
I see what you're saying. It's like comparing the minishark and Musket. One shoots super fast, the other does 32 damage every so often.
If said weapon were ever implemented, it'd be that Antlion minions can only be summoned from first instance of ground beneath you, in a range of 3 blocks either side alone the, total area five blocks but not on other sides of walls. These only counting solid block (not platform), seems easy enough a requirement. The weapon would perform worse if you kept running one way as Antlions would trail behind due to cast delay.

Intented use; good for defending in open areas using vertical manuves instead of horozontal ones, so the idea is holding your ground, just like the ferocious Antlions themselves! (non-charger kind, #### those guys)

Now this is all well and good discussing how to balance things but the problem is that I made comparisons to Piranha Gun because I felt that it represented a stage in the game that manaless attacks using mechanics like this was acceptable, as thought by the devs when they put it in. Summoners using mana for their attacks is acceptable, they would even have a leg-up to magic users since Mana Sickness debuffs magic damage for potion abuse. Seeing your idea has made me question if there should be further limitations. Just because some feel melee got everything doesn't mean we should stoop to that level, having easy power given to us.

I'd like to see interesting way to impose limits to the summoner for their new found weapons, however, without creating a bunch of new game elements.
 
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Muteness

Terrarian
After having some time to think about this I came to some conclusions:
One; the Piranha Gun should consume ammo whilst it's being used to justify buffing it because It's so underwhelming by the time you actually get one and two; I should probably add mana costs to the weapon suggestions, though the cost should be exceedingly low, like say 2 mana per second? Since all minions currently in the game use mana it seems odd to exclude these items and it doesn't help balance their use out.

I'll edit the OP to that unless I think of anything better and besides, this means that new prefixes don't have to be thought up.

I've noticed there's a disproportionate amount of views to comments made, that being only one person has bothered. Is the OP unclear or intimidating or what? Please feel free to make recommendations as to what the thread should look like if you feel there's something done wrong.
 
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Perume

Official Terrarian
The first thing that comes to mind when thinking about direct minion damage is the witch doctor from Diablo III. Some of his attacks involve summoning flaming bats, so why not making weapons like this? Those would be similar to magic weapons like the bat scepter or the wasp gun. But with minion damage and further developed AI.
 
Literally my first thought: Bat Scepter. It summons bats. Keyword is summon. Why is it a magic weapon?

Seriously, though, there's a few weapons in the game that do magic damage but DEFINITELY qualify as 'summon' weapons, the Bat Scepter being one of them. The Bee and Wasp Guns (and to some extent, the Bee's Knees and Hellwing Bow when they only have wooden arrows) definitely qualify, and there's probably a few others. Converting them to summon damage (and probably supplying a new magic weapon to the Queen Bee) would only make sense, and it gives summoners a proper weapon for them to use.

Because you're absolutely right. Minions don't really count as YOU fighting, as they do all the work for you, down to targeting. At least with the Bat Scepter or similar weapons, you're telling them what to attack, AND you're actively using it.
 

Muteness

Terrarian
Bat Scepter. It summons bats. Keyword is summon. Why is it a magic weapon?
I feel inclined to agree.

Though it would make degrees of sense and I doubt there's many who'd miss them dealing magic damage; I tend to avoid changing the quoter for things already in the game because I think people opinionate their arguments too much when based around things they're use to. My threads trend towards giving something new without taking or changing existing content for I detest squabbles over defending who likes what.

Those weapons you listed are better at targeting but I was kind of hoping for ones that hit the exact target you want via flying at your cursor for finer control in crowd situations since summoners have a real lack of specific kills that other classes enjoy. If the above were changed to do summon damage I'd also like them to target where the cursor is rather than whatever's closes to help put them on more even footing.

Even then, changing the existing weapons would probably leave room for some of this thread's content to help fill out their choices in a play through or for end game equipment.
 

Afro King

Terrarian
Maybe a weapon that when fired could launch a minion at the enemy, so like maybe if it was cursed flames, a spell tome, and souls of night, it would launch a devourer in a straight line that would despawn once it was off screen.
 

Flashstriker

Plantera
How about a series of Tomes from each biome? These would be wieldable minions. The tome acts similar to a magic missile/flamelash (which could also be converted to summon damage?), summoning an orb or something similar that follows the cursor. While im no good at balancing, i think i have some crafting recipes.

4 Shiverthorn, 20 Ice Blocks, 1 Book at a Bookcase

4 Waterleaf, 4 Antlion Mandibles, 1 Book at a Bookcase

4 Deathweed, 4 Rotten Chunks/Vertebrae, 1 Book at a Bookcase (Could summon a shadow orb/ crimson heart, possibly)

4 Moonglow, 4 Jungle Spores, 1 Book at a Bookcase

4 Deathweed, 20 Bones, 1 Book at a Bookcase

You could possibly upgrade all of these in hardmode with X of each of the mech boss souls.
 
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