Update 1.3.0.3 and Moon Lord

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Grimmsy

Terrarian
Is Moon Lord even harder to defeat now or is this a bug? It spawned with several white eyes already orbiting him and simply obliterated me.

If it's the former, which I guess it is seeing the trend here, when is it going to be strong enough? When only but the most skilled players can defeat it? With the addition of Expert mode, why must Terraria be such a hardcore experience in Normal mode?

Barely a few days after 1.3 went live there were already threads about nerfing this and that. Why? Why must a boss fight be tedious and boring; why must it be so damn long?
Does everyone have time in their day to kill the Cultist, then the Pillars, then go in a drawn out fight against the boss, only to die at the very end and start all over again? Not to mention the time needed to build even a basic arena and gather materials for buff potions.

The fight is not entertaining, and quite boring after the very nicely done Cultist and Pillars phase. Maybe it's fun in multiplayer? Do let me know. But I doubt I'm the only one with no one to play with, and fighting over loot with strangers doesn't sound appealing to me.

I apologize for my bitterness, and I do understand this is THE last boss, but I play games for fun and this is only frustrating. I managed to beat him once (after about 8 fails) and most of the loot was rather disappointing for what is supposed to be the most end game gear.
 
If I may ask, why are you (and many others) having trouble with the Moon Lord? As far as I can tell, Normal Mode Moon Lord is but a battle of attrition using a Melee setup.

1. Start from your base
2. Lure the Moon Lord towards the edge of the map, attacking the Hand on the side you're on. (Scale Mail Phase)
3. When low on health, fly further out of reach, and dodge and weave while spamming Daybreak/North Pole/Terra Blade/Flairon Bubbles at the Moon Lord. (Shell Phase)
4. When close to death and/or near the edge of the map, magic-mirror back to base.
5. Get heals from the Nurse.
6. Wait for the Moon Lord to come to you.
7. Repeat steps 1-7 until Moon Lord is dead.
8. ???
9. PROFIT.
[DOUBLEPOST=1435877876,1435877663][/DOUBLEPOST]I think the problem is that people are far too used to their lifesteal strategies. 1.3.0.3 Moon Lord completely disables lifesteal, so you'll have to either dodge, tank the damage, or both.
 
And that is acceptable why? Teleporting back to base in the middle of a fight to heal and then jumping back in is better than a straight up fight or life stealing gear why? It draws out the battle more. And it is indeed a battle of attrition, no matter the setup (melee, ranger, whatever) and a long one at that.

Why do we need gimmicks like that to defeat a boss?

Here's an easier way to cheese it: 2 teleporters far enough from each other with pressure plates on them, a good ranged weapon with chlorophyte bullets and full summoner armor + cell or dragon summon. Just jump to switch location when it comes close and never let go of the firing button. Add Life statues by teleporters as fail safe and carry a shield to prevent knockback.

Oh what fun..

EDIT: the spawning of Moon Lord with the eyes already orbiting it was indeed a bug. Couldn't replicate it when I tried to fight it again to get a screenshot.
 
Grimmsy said:
And that is acceptable why? Teleporting back to base in the middle of a fight to heal and then jumping back in is better than a straight up fight or life stealing gear why? It draws out the battle more. And it is indeed a battle of attrition, no matter the setup (melee, ranger, whatever) and a long one at that.

Why do we need gimmicks like that to defeat a boss?

Here's an easier way to cheese it: 2 teleporters far enough from each other with pressure plates on them, a good ranged weapon with chlorophyte bullets and full summoner armor + cell or dragon summon. Just jump to switch location when it comes close and never let go of the firing button. Add Life statues by teleporters as fail safe and carry a shield to prevent knockback.

Oh what fun..

EDIT: the spawning of Moon Lord with the eyes already orbiting it was indeed a bug. Couldn't replicate it when I tried to fight it again to get a screenshot.
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Defeating bosses and events has always taken gimmicks after a certain point. Part of the fun of Terraria is finding out exactly what makes a boss tick, and then using that knowledge to defeat and/or farm the boss for fun and profit. Arenas, traps, platforms... things like that. I sincerely doubt it's possible to solo say, the Frost Moon with pre-1.3 gear, no arena, and no buffs. Boss fights take time and preparation, lest you be splattered on the ground like paste. Since I just killed the Moon Lord twice in a row with the method I mentioned, It's not unfair to say that the Moon Lord is actually underpowered. It's too easy to cheese the fight.

Because really, there's more or less only three ways a battle can go. You can either curb-stomp the enemy with OP gear, you can be evenly matched and fight a battle of attrition, or you can spend time figuring out the AI and then finding the best way to take it down.

With the Moon Lord as it is right now, the second option is the easiest one. Were the Moon Lord less easy to beat with cheap tactics, you'd have to actually learn how to beat it. You'd have to prepare an arena, take buffs and experiment with loadouts, just like most other bosses and events when you first prepare for them. It'd make the final boss a bit more interesting, that's for sure.

Because in Terraria you either learn to cheese, or you learn to kick some :red:.
 
I think there's a difference between events and bosses. I don't know how the pre-hardmode and mechanical bosses, plantera and golem are now since I haven't fought them with level appropriate gear in a long time (only with OP gear for their level), but when they were released I remember straight up fighting them without arenas and gimmicks, only dodging and using potions (healing, buffs, mana). And yes, I died many times but I always felt like it was my fault, not that the game is unfair.

They were boss fights and it was fun to beat the bosses in a straight fight. They were challenging but rewarding. Of course you needed to prepare, but the preparations consisted of crafting or finding gear and buffing up with potions, learning patterns and weaknesses. They did not require gimmicks or arenas to defeat, nor were they so hard or tedious to make me think the battle is unfair, and thus to cheat/cheese to get an edge.

The events are a different matter, since they have multiple bosses with a flood of minions and waves that have to be defeated in a limited time. But even in the events you could get all the gear without getting to the latter waves, thus not really requiring an arena or gimmicks to get all the loot.

And are you saying that the Moon Lord has to be buffed because it's easily beaten using gimmicks? Are we really going to balance the game according to exploits? Do you realize how insane that sounds and how it's basically terrible game design?

I just don't find it entertaining holding down a direction key on a long asphalt platform while firing until you reach the end of the map and then going to the other end until the boss is dead. Fights used to be more dynamic and involved, but trying to fight Moon Lord like other bosses is mostly suicide. Dodging 3 sustained laser beams in very quick succession every 5 seconds is luck not skill. Maybe if Rod of Discord didn't get nerfed to hell..
 
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Grimmsy said:
And that is acceptable why? Teleporting back to base in the middle of a fight to heal and then jumping back in is better than a straight up fight or life stealing gear why? It draws out the battle more. And it is indeed a battle of attrition, no matter the setup (melee, ranger, whatever) and a long one at that.

Why do we need gimmicks like that to defeat a boss?

Here's an easier way to cheese it: 2 teleporters far enough from each other with pressure plates on them, a good ranged weapon with chlorophyte bullets and full summoner armor + cell or dragon summon. Just jump to switch location when it comes close and never let go of the firing button. Add Life statues by teleporters as fail safe and carry a shield to prevent knockback.

Oh what fun..

EDIT: the spawning of Moon Lord with the eyes already orbiting it was indeed a bug. Couldn't replicate it when I tried to fight it again to get a screenshot.
Click to expand...


It's called tactics, it sounds like you just want something that's "tank and spank".
 
Tell me how enjoyable the sequence in your signature would be if instead of fighting, one of them would be using the "tactics" we pretty much have to use against Moon Lord?

Tactics and strategy. Remind me again why do we spend so much time to get better loot if we don't use it to fight the bosses? Armour, potions and accessories are irrelevant if you're only going to attack a target that's always on the edge of the screen with no way for it to ever hit you. No need to learn patterns and weaknesses, no need to dodge. Just keep 2 buttons pressed until the boss is dead and then call yourself a tactician and the post threads on how the boss has to be buffed.

I agree with you that games like Diablo, Binding of Isaac and The Witcher would be so much more enjoyable if instead of fighting the enemies we could just snipe them offscreen for half an hour each until a message pops up that they're dead. We need more games for "tacticians" cause that's where the entertainment is.

The fact that so many melee weapons are now projectiles are indeed proof that Terraria is now a game for "tacticians". Just cheese..oops, sorry, I meant use tactics to defeat the bosses to get their loot so you can then stomp over the normal enemies, since they're the highlight of the game. Bosses are more like some weird locking mechanisms for chests of goodies meant for use against common enemies.

I can't wait for an update in which you sit in your base and
 
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Grimmsy said:
Tactics and strategy. Remind me again why do we spend so much time to get better loot if we don't use it to fight the bosses? Armour, potions and accessories are irrelevant if you're only going to attack a target that's always on the edge of the screen with no way for it to ever hit you. No need to learn patterns and weaknesses, no need to dodge. Just keep 2 buttons pressed until the boss is dead and then call yourself a tactician and the post threads on how the boss has to be buffed.

I agree with you that games like Diablo and The Witcher would be so much more enjoyable if instead of fighting the enemies we could just snipe them offscreen for half an hour each until a message pops up that they're dead. We need more games for "tacticians" cause that's where the entertainment is.

The fact that so many melee weapons are now projectiles are indeed proof that Terraria is now a game for "tacticians". Just cheese..oops, sorry, I meant use tactics to defeat the bosses to get their loot so you can then stomp over the normal enemies since they're the highlight of the game. Bosses are more like some weird locking mechanisms for chests of goodies meant for use against common enemies.
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This is exactly what I mean when I say that as of now, the Moon Lord fight is too easy to cheese. It's gotten better now that we can't lifesteal our way to victory anymore, but it's still a problem. Sure, it's nice for farming drops if you're too tired to fight the Moon Lord properly, but I'd rather that it wasn't a viable tactic on the first fight.

The "buff" I was asking for earlier is to give the Moon Lord some way to punish you for using cheap tactics. Tactics like teleporting to the other side of the map and returning to the fight at full capacity. I've killed the Moon Lord multiple times in a row without fail using that "strategy". There's clever tactics and fight preparation, and then there's this BS.

It also doesn't make sense when you think about it. Normal bosses despawn when you're far. Event enemies spawn at your location. The WoF kills you for trying to escape. Yes, there are ways to cheat and make those fights easier for farming purposes, but at least those cheats require some thinking and effort. The Moon Lord doesn't do any of those; it's a straight-up battle of attrition that you could win with post-Solar Eclipse gear.


In other news, you might have a point regarding the Melee class' projectile weapons. I've never made as much progress with my other characters simply because it's just too tiring to attempt to play Ranger when you have to grind for your ammo, and likewise Mage since you need mana potions for everything. However; I don't particularly agree with giving the Melee class only "pure" Melee weapons such as swords. It'd be a living hell trying to deal damage when enemies move faster than you-or worse, teleport.

For this I think yo-yos, flails, and the Death Sickle have been a step in the right direction: Give the Melee class some range, but limit it so it doesn't go overboard.
 
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I'm all for melee weapon diversity. I think the solar melee weapons do it right. Daybreak has severe drop-off over a short distance, and Eruption has a rather limited range as well, and can't switch targets until it finishes it's attack animation, which is rather long. Flails, yo-yos and other nice weapons don't allow the player to keep the enemy on the edge of the screen while doing damage to it.

Of course, Wall of Flesh is an exception, since it was designed to be fought by keeping the distance and moving across the map. But it was designed in such a way that you can be close enough to fight him with melee weapons that have a bit of range; dodging is useful and can prevent most damage. The player actually fights this boss. Unlike Moon Lord where you're either stomped by it, or you crush it with cheese (and as you pointed out, the devs let that door wide open)

I agree with most of your post and it actually sustains my previous points, except the life drain nerf. And I asked before, why is it better and more entertaining to teleport back to base instead of staying in the fight while leeching health? Why is it bad game design to have life drain when so many other games, even with a competitive scene have no trouble pulling it off?
 
Grimmsy said:
I'm all for melee weapon diversity. I think the solar melee weapons do it right. Daybreak has severe drop-off over a short distance, and Eruption has a rather limited range as well, and can't switch targets until it finishes it's attack animation, which is rather long. Flails, yo-yos and other nice weapons don't allow the player to keep the enemy on the edge of the screen while doing damage to it.

Of course, Wall of Flesh is an exception, since it was designed to be fought by keeping the distance and moving across the map. But it was designed in such a way that you can be close enough to fight him with melee weapons that have a bit of range; dodging is useful and can prevent most damage. The player actually fights this boss. Unlike Moon Lord where you're either stomped by it, or you crush it with cheese (and as you pointed out, the devs let that door wide open)

I agree with most of your post and it actually sustains my previous points, except the life drain nerf. And I asked before, why is it better and more entertaining to teleport back to base instead of staying in the fight while leeching health? Why is it bad game design to have life drain when so many other games, even with a competitive scene have no trouble pulling it off?
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That's just it. It's not.

Cheesing the fight is boring. Pre-1.3.0.3, I could cheese the fight by face-tanking the Moon Lord. It just didn't do enough damage to overcome the sheer amount of health I was gaining from the Vampire Knives. Now that that option's out of the way, I've been forced to actually use buffs, platforms with campfires, dodging , and accessory switching (DPS to Defense and vice versa) to beat him.

I won't say that life-steal is a bad thing. Sure, if the debuff only removed 90% of your life-stealing capabilities, I'd be okay with it. Right now my only peeve with the debuff is that it is nigh-impossible to avoid. You can't outrun the "tongue" nor destroy it. With some skill, there's a small window of time where you can leech health off of the Moon Lord, but it's too small a window of time to bother with.

...You know, there's a thought: The Moon lord is basically Skeletron Prime Plus. That might be why the fight seems boring; it's happened before.
 
Using the nurse to heal isn't the "only" way to defeat the moon lord, even after the update. Any of the pillar weapons can make it easy to defeat, and hey, life stealing isn't useful anymore? Too bad we don't have potions that heal 200 HP! Oh wait...

There's more than one way to beat the Moon Lord - it's just that the Cheese Knives and Godmode Armor aren't the End All anymore, and players don't usually like it when their easy way out is not there anymore.

Welcome to 1.3. Leave your godlike items at the door, because they're not godlike anymore.
 
Kyouko Tsukino said:
Using the nurse to heal isn't the "only" way to defeat the moon lord, even after the update. Any of the pillar weapons can make it easy to defeat, and hey, life stealing isn't useful anymore? Too bad we don't have potions that heal 200 HP! Oh wait...

There's more than one way to beat the Moon Lord - it's just that the Cheese Knives and Godmode Armor aren't the End All anymore, and players don't usually like it when their easy way out is not there anymore.

Welcome to 1.3. Leave your godlike items at the door, because they're not godlike anymore.
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It's not the only way, yes. But I don't think it should even be a way. All the other bosses are usually dangerous and challenging fights. For the Moon Lord, you can damage it a bit, teleport, rinse and repeat. The "challenge" part becomes optional.

This is big deal when you can cheese the Moon Lord on Expert Mode.

(P.S. That last line should be be in-game. Preferably spoken by the Guide as you enter Expert Mode.)
 
Yes, 200HP healed with a long cooldown before you can heal again. Failing to dodge all 3 eyes firing at once or in very quick succession twice (I doubt I'm special and it only happens to me so often), and the fight is over.

No matter the gear, I could only get to almost opening it's core then I die, every time in a straight fight (with potion/food buffs of course). You're entitled to say that I suck at this game, that's all right, but does it really have to be such a hardcore high skill fight in Normal mode? The battle feels unfair. This is not Dark Souls where you fail on your own merits.

And what are you saying exactly? Leave the godlike gear and go for weaker gear to get killed even easier? I'm not sure what your point is.
Learn to fight the boss better? This one has barely any patterns to learn. Learn to dodge better? What, 3 rotating sustained laser beams from 3 different sources? I find it easier to dodge in bullethell games. At least in those you can see the projectile patterns and where the "I will die" spots is going to be in the next second

Especially with the new Expert mode, I think Normal mode should cater a bit more to casual players.

EDIT: nevermind that players like to role play and carry a specific themed gear. They have barely any hope of defeating the boss, when even min-maxing players find it very hard to defeat it with godlike gear.
 
No, I meant that the "godlike" aka "best" gear of 1.2 is rendered hardly useful, and thus you need to learn to use other type of gear, of a higher tier. As it happened with 1.2 when it came to 1.1 gear, and 1.1 when it came to 1.0 gear.

And yes, the fight is supposed to be hard - it's a final boss fight, after all. I could agree that the cheesing should be removed as well - but perhaps the devs leave it there so everyone can beat the boss? Isn't that what you are thriving for? For everyone, and not just some "pros" being able to beat the game? Well, you already have it. If you want to kill the boss the "right" way, you'll have to work for it, train and figure out which pieces of gear work best for you. Else, bring out the cheese, and kill the boss. Right now, Terraria can be 'beaten' by all players.

By the way, the Moon Lord has a pattern. Hard to follow? Yes, very. One error could screw you over? Yes. Is that how real old school game bosses were? Heck yes.

The Moon Lord is exactly what I expected from Terraria when I started playing it, four years ago. Good things come to those who wait.

"But it can be cheesed!" you say. I have to ask, how does that affect you? If you don't want to cheese the fight, then train until you find a way to beat beat it. If you want the easy way out, there's several paths for you to take.
 
Idk, I've managed to beat the Moon Lord without Life Steal before the update. I used homing rockets and Snowman Cannon first, then chlorophyte bullets and the Vortex Beater. Now, with full buffs, Vortex Armour, etc, I can beat him by flying around a bit an shooting a lot. The first time I maybe returned to heal 3 times, last time, only once.

I imagine as you get better at Moon Lord, you shouldn't need to return to the Nurse at all! That being said, I haven't tried Expert Mode Moon Lord yet -_-
 
I'm tempted to say that I managed Moon Lord with Spectre Armor and Damage Hood using the Venom Staff, without Teleporting. all I really used were my Butterfly Wings, and my Ivy Whip, and about 5,000 dirt blocks I'd placed in the air in various locations. Expert Mode kill 1.3.0.3 I made it harder than it had to be, and I still managed it reasonably easily. As far as fights go, he's NOT that tough. My Rival, Duke Fishron, is harder of a fight, honestly, with the gear you have available at the time.

It really is a matter of the main focus of Terraria, the terrain. Adapt it to your play style, make arenas. That's one of the first things you should do is at least a basic arena for a boss.

Wingcap said:
I haven't tried Expert Mode Moon Lord yet -_-
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You're in for a treat ^.^ He's QUITE a bit more challenging than Normal Mode.
 
I'm no expert at using the Spectre armor, so perhaps I underestimated it.

I also didn't use an arena for normal, but Expert mode was quite impossible for me without "platforms, platforms everywhere." And that's perfectly fine.
 
I under stand everyone's views on this topic, but I must say, the fight is a bit boring for me. Flying around and shooting at something. Whoop dee doo -_- such fun. I wish they could make the fight a bit more intense too. And maybe make it so that you don't have to spend ages killing the cultist and pillars.

Now if you disagree, be civilized and don't start a fight. This is MY opinion, don't let it influence yours :cool:
*walks out of the room like a bad :red: with explosions in the backround* :cool::cool::cool:
 
Kyouko Tsukino said:
No, I meant that the "godlike" aka "best" gear of 1.2 is rendered hardly useful, and thus you need to learn to use other type of gear, of a higher tier. As it happened with 1.2 when it came to 1.1 gear, and 1.1 when it came to 1.0 gear.

And yes, the fight is supposed to be hard - it's a final boss fight, after all. I could agree that the cheesing should be removed as well - but perhaps the devs leave it there so everyone can beat the boss? Isn't that what you are thriving for? For everyone, and not just some "pros" being able to beat the game? Well, you already have it. If you want to kill the boss the "right" way, you'll have to work for it, train and figure out which pieces of gear work best for you. Else, bring out the cheese, and kill the boss. Right now, Terraria can be 'beaten' by all players.

By the way, the Moon Lord has a pattern. Hard to follow? Yes, very. One error could screw you over? Yes. Is that how real old school game bosses were? Heck yes.

The Moon Lord is exactly what I expected from Terraria when I started playing it, four years ago. Good things come to those who wait.

"But it can be cheesed!" you say. I have to ask, how does that affect you? If you don't want to cheese the fight, then train until you find a way to beat beat it. If you want the easy way out, there's several paths for you to take.
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Rule of Game Design: If something is easily cheesable, it's bad game design. Simple, done, no exceptions, even if you don't have to cheese.

Learn the difference between smart use of tactics, and "cheesing." The former is using the game's mechanics like the developers expect you to use them. Cheesing is taking advantage of exploits and oversights that the developers didn't see.

The game currently has 2 bosses that are easily cheesable: Eater of Worlds and Moon Lord. (Golem used to be a very cheesable boss, but that was fixed.) I don't count King Slime because smart use of terrain is what developers want us to use to our advantage. I mean we can rearrange blocks for a reason.

From everything I have heard (haven't fought the boss myself yet), it sounds to me like the Moon Lord needs a complete overhaul. A simple change, as we have seen with the leech buff, won't fix it.
 
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