Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[J Bame]

- Phaseblades don't seem quite strong enough yet, compared to Falcon Blade and Enchanted Sword at least. Their low knockback is an issue.
- Reaver Shark isn't as fast as I thought it'd be, it's only a tiny bit better than Deathbringer pickaxe. Granted, it doesn't take that long to get one but that time could just be spent killing the evil boss and crafting their pick. It could just get Bone Pickaxe speed honestly.
- That Brand of the Inferno buff.... i'm going to assume you didn't have enough time to do more.
- Before this update I had started using Betsy's Wrath more and... it felt much stronger than I thought. Its DPS is better than it initially looks, projectiles are big and accurate, and its AOE isn't half bad. And this is on top of +20 damage to any Magnet Spheres, Rainbow Guns, Xeno Staves, and Flameburst Sentries that you had lying around. I have not tried it yet but practically double damage on that thing looks super excessive. This may be stronger than pre-rework Razorblade.
- Tsunami Nerf doesn't look that impactful, but I haven't tried it.
- Gonna double down in that Unholy didn't need that little nerf.

That's about all my nitpicks, this update was awesome.

The rarity is another situation . . . all of the Pirate drops are "too rare" in my opinion, but I didn't get permission to change them. Personally, I'd have overhauled all of the Pirate Invasion drops to have more reasonable drop rates, but I couldn't swing it.

Is there still a chance to make the Flying Dutchman guaranteed to drop one of the items, like the Martian Saucer? Really, none of the Pirate Invasion items have a reason to be as rare as they are, even the Coin Gun.

 

[Marin21bg]

So i found a bug in Terraria 1.4.1, i was in singleplayer world and the OS i am using is Windows 10 version 2004.
The world i play on is NOT created on Terraria 1.4.1 (if this is needed information) it was created on version 1.4.0.3.

So the glitch:

I was mining chlorophyte at the jungle and i was listening to the game sounds (by sound i mean sound effects and music tracks of the game) with a headphones and there where some bugs. When i plug and unplug the headphones from my jack the sounds of the game just stops and i need to restart the game to fix it.

But there was a major bug that i was unable to replicate twice:
At some point in my mining i just decided to switch to my speakers instead of headphones and i did exactly the same i just unplugged the headphones from the jack and the game crashed.
When i got back into the world i was send back with about 5 minutes.

Sorry if there are some mistakes with the text but english is not my native language.
https://terraria.wiki.gg/Chlorophyte_Ore

 

[Leinfors]

- That Brand of the Inferno buff.... i'm going to assume you didn't have enough time to do more.

Only commenting on this one due to time constraints at the immediate moment, but in tandem with its dramatic damage buff in 1.4, I wasn't of the impression it was in a particularly bad spot. However, it felt way too small for hit detection, and it seemed like it needed to have more hit size, hence the buff.

Did you have something else in mind? (Its hard to justify more than doubling a weapon's damage, but if its truly necessary, I can re-evaluate it)

 

[qwerty3.14]

Only commenting on this one due to time constraints at the immediate moment, but in tandem with its dramatic damage buff in 1.4, I wasn't of the impression it was in a particularly bad spot. However, it felt way too small for hit detection, and it seemed like it needed to have more hit size, hence the buff.

Did you have something else in mind? (Its hard to justify more than doubling a weapon's damage, but if its truly necessary, I can re-evaluate it)

Brand of inferno base dps - 204dps
Hallowed repeater based dps (with wooden arrows) - 217.5dps

Why should I get so close with a sword when that repeater does roughly the same damage at range, and can get massive buffs with the right ammo?

 

[J Bame]

Well yes, it got its base damage doubled, which made it go from as "strong" as a Mythril Sword to this...

... which is noticeably worse than this...

... without counting the latter's projectile at all. If you do then it's not even a comparison.

I'm pretty sure that OOA T2 weapons are supposed to be as powerful as Chlorophyte ones, but this one is really about as strong as just the Excalibur or the Chloro Saber. (which isn't a high bar to beat at all). It does have that shield mechanic but that's way too gimmicky to ever be useful.

 

[Leinfors]

Well yes, it got its base damage doubled, which made it go from as "strong" as a Mythril Sword to this...

... which is noticeably worse than this...

... without counting the latter's projectile at all. If you do then it's not even a comparison.

I'm pretty sure that OOA T2 weapons are supposed to be as powerful as Chlorophyte ones, but this one is really about as strong as just the Excalibur or the Chloro Saber. (which isn't a high bar to beat at all). It does have that shield mechanic but that's way too gimmicky to ever be useful.

Yeahhh, you raise a good point there. The True Excalibur buff came later, didn't consider its impact there. It'll be a hard sell to buff it more though (we'll probably be looking at something like a 2.5x buff from its original damage). Not sure what I'll be able to swing but I'll put it on my list to review.

Brand of inferno base dps - 204dps
Hallowed repeater based dps (with wooden arrows) - 217.5dps

Why should I get so close with a sword when that repeater does roughly the same damage at range, and can get massive buffs with the right ammo?

Well admittedly, that's more of a Ranged vs Melee problem. If you compare almost any tier-appropriate HM ranged weapon to a melee weapon, the ranged one wins. Something that is too wide scale an issue for me to be able to comfortably resolve.

Excalibur was my original basis for comparison for it.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

I think there’s just a fatal flaw with non-projectile swords in that, except in very specific cicrumstances, you never want to be close enough to the enemy to actually utilize it. It’s an issue the entire game and the only weapons that are powerful enough at close range to ignore this issue are Terragrim and Fetid Baghs, and I believe that their attack speed makes them viable, which can’t just be added to every sword. Probably way too far gone to be fixed either.

 

[DragoonII]

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. To call Black Spot useless is honestly highly exaggerated and inaccurate. Cosmic Car Key is a solidly valuable mount that only goes 41 MPH, and it is a post-Golem/post-Martian drop.

Black Spot goes 36 MPH, which is 87% as much as the UFO mount!!! And it drops three boss tiers lower than Cosmic Car key (Mechs, Plantera, and Golem). That's a HUGE difference in tier. Yes, its acceleration is slow. Yes, that's intended. I know its a Master drop. And still I'm certain of this.

You cannot tell me that a 36 MPH infinite flight mount at pre-mech tier is useless, not when Cosmic Car Key (41 MPH) and Fishron Mount (40 mph when not wet and an Expert item to boot) are not dramatically faster in standard scenarios and also from End-game.

Let me be clear: as a pre-mech drop, even a Master one, Black Spot cannot be as good as UFO Mount. Period. And its already so close to the same speed already that we really can't buff it before it gets there. Any faster, and it outruns Skeletron Prime (WHICH IT SHOULDN'T!). That people have been so dependent upon how broken it was demonstrates all the more to me that this was an important change that needed to happen. If you think that there should be a better-than-UFO-mount pre-mech, then we have very different ideas of game balance.

I agree with the top speed being reduced (as you stated it it should not be better or as good as the UFO one), but I also agree with the others above that it feels like too much of a nerf, to the point of being unused for Mastermode Hardmode. Top speed being reduced is okay, since it was meant to be bad for boss fights, but why did you remove the dash boost and lower the acceleration if you've already reduced to the top speed? I don't even see the value in it being used to travel because now there are a lot of items that are much faster than it, and due to its large body, its already prevented from going into certain places. I don't think Infinite flight somehow balances this out. I don't think it should be as great/OP as it was before (just kiting every boss, even if they still do kill you often, is a bit cheap), but the way it is currently is just isn't good.

 

[Leinfors]

I think there’s just a fatal flaw with non-projectile swords in that, except in very specific cicrumstances, you never want to be close enough to the enemy to actually utilize it. It’s an issue the entire game and the only weapons that are powerful enough at close range to ignore this issue are Terragrim and Fetid Baghs, and I believe that their attack speed makes them viable, which can’t just be added to every sword. Probably way too far gone to be fixed either.

Agreed, the whole fundamental issue of Melee is something requiring a rework on the scale that I had neither the time nor the authority to do.

I had some ideas about it, and there has been tons of brainstorming about it over the years, but it was all too widescale to implement given the conditions I was working with.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Agreed, the whole fundamental issue of Melee is something requiring a rework on the scale that I had neither the time nor the authority to do.

I had some ideas about it, and there has been tons of brainstorming about it over the years, but it was all too widescale to implement given the conditions I was working with.

I feel like yoyo and the 1.4 flails are melee done right, they have more range than broadswords but not as much as most ranged/magic weapons wich can hit the edge of the screen. They also have strong abilities like yoyos being able to maneuver around walls and flails being amazing at disrupting hordes.

Another example would the death sickle, from a stand still it can't hit that far, however if you need to hit something far away with it then you can lure it into the projectile, which allows it to be a good boss weapon. If you have to think about the weapon's limited range but it still manages to be good then I think you've done a good melee weapon.

 

[SsIras]

Agreed, the whole fundamental issue of Melee is something requiring a rework on the scale that I had neither the time nor the authority to do.

I had some ideas about it, and there has been tons of brainstorming about it over the years, but it was all too widescale to implement given the conditions I was working with.

And I think there were a bit too many melee suggestions to work with for this update too, so I get why not all got reviewed.
All the hardmode ore swords, phasesabers, some spears, Horseman's Blade, jousting lances, even a few projectile based swords that got changed in 1.4 but not enough like Christmas Tree Sword.

I'm happy with the changes we got, and it would probably have been impossible to look at all these, but it's a shame how melee was a bit doomed from the start.

 

[Leinfors]

Honestly, I think it was doomed ever since Clockwork Assault Rifle/Megashark. They started a downward spiral of balance-around-Ranged-damage that started 3-4 years before I even got on the team. Too much damage done to shift course now.

 

[SsIras]

By the way, now that Terra Blade is buffed, Christmas Tree Sword feels even weaker, the amount of projectiles barely helps making it feel different mechnically (it does look cool tho) and now it has much lower DPS in comparison.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Honestly, I think it was doomed ever since Clockwork Assault Rifle/Megashark. They started a downward spiral of balance-around-Ranged-damage that started 3-4 years before I even got on the team. Too much damage done to shift course now.

How is that related to the bad prehardmode swords?

 

[Leinfors]

How is that related to the bad prehardmode swords?

The DPS discrepancy with pre-HM swords and pre-HM ranged damage wasn't as bad as HM.

If you consider it like this, there are two factors:
- Potential DPS (the maximum possible you can deal in perfect conditions)
- Effective DPS (the % of the time you spend actually dealing your potential DPS)

One of the issues with mid/late game Ranged is that not only is its effective DPS MUCH higher (because its dealing damage across the screen most of the time, while melee is only doing it when in range), but that the actual potential DPS of Ranged is literally higher. The most prominent example of this was Clockwork Assault Rifle compared to Breaker Blade and Laser Rifle, which I believe started a continuing trend effect.

While early game melee DID have the same "effective DPS" issue, the potential DPS problem was not nearly as pronounced, and in fact, favors melee in some scenarios.

In the end, Melee should have ALWAYS had the highest "potential DPS", which would have counter balanced its lower "effective DPS" and the inherent risk of being that close. But it didn't.

Why use a sword that does 100 DPS 40% of the time when you can use a gun that does 300 DPS 90% of the time. If those numbers were reversed? It might actually be balanced.

 

[Lythael]

Might i ask why the neighbouring NPC detection range was doubled??
Well .. aside from wanting to punish players even more for keeping NPCs in tidy multi-room apartmanets / castles / bunkers

 

[JohannSimm]

On the subject of the Horseman's Blade, is there a chance that it could be receive another balance pass, even if it's just a damage buff – or is that out of the question, since it was not touched in 1.4.1?

Some other potential buffs:
* Flameburst sentries – Increased attack range arc to allow it to hit flying enemies. Increased damage and rate of fire.
* Deadly Sphere Staff – Increased search radius; can pass through Terrain (like Stardust Dragon).
* Rainbow Crystal Staff – Increased damage; sparkles explode even faster. Knockback decreased.
* Lunar Portal Staff – Increased damage.

Might i ask why the neighbouring NPC detection range was doubled??
Well .. aside from wanting to punish players even more for keeping NPCs in tidy multi-room apartmanets / castles / bunkers

I believe that the range at which NPCs can detect liked/hated NPCs was increased, but not the overcrowding range.

 

[Leinfors]

Might i ask why the neighbouring NPC detection range was doubled??
Well .. aside from wanting to punish players even more for keeping NPCs in tidy multi-room apartmanets / castles / bunkers

Oddly, it was because of constant feedback that it was too hard to keep NPCs close enough to register as neighbors for each other to get the happiness bonus. People wanted more flexibility in their NPC positioning, and didn't want to have to cram them together.

Now I'm hearing the exact opposite. I suspect this one is a literal no-win scenario, since the original range was not enough, and the current range is too much. I might be able to find a middle ground between the two values, but I think I'm just screwed here now. No solution will result in happy players.

 

[SImonSix]

not a balance change but rather a suggestion: Can we craft demon altar and crimson altar? Because they are the only crafting station that cannot be moved. Hell make it post-moonlord but please. Cheers

 

[JohannSimm]

Two questions: Can the Lihzahrd Furnace be made to emit light like similar objects, and can glass be added to the crafting recipes of the Adamantite and Titanium Forges?