Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[SsIras]

5. IMO, in an ideal world, I'd totally rework the Celestial-into-Moon Lord Summoner weapon progression. I wish Moon Lord dropped a real summon. But summons are not easy to add, they take 10x the work of other weapons, and an end-game summon even moreso. I made some adjustments to Rainbow Crystal Staff that, in my opinion, make a big difference. Public perception has not quite agreed with that. It is now at a point where minor adjustments will no longer cut it, it requires a rework, and I'm not capable of reworks to that level. And so there is not much else I could do. I could theoretically just do damage buffs, but I'm not sure how I feel about that right now.

In 1.4, Rainbow Crystal Staff was buffed to explode faster, which made it a much more consistent weapon, however, this was also accompanied by a massive damage nerf (150->80). I believe this nerf was actually unnecessary.
Here's the performance of other Moon Lord gear using godmode and valhalla set, each having 30 seconds against golem:


Star Wrath

Spoiler

Lunar Portal

Spoiler

Rainbow Crystal

Spoiler

 

[Lythael]

I absolutely rekt him with fire cracker + obsidian armor + spider + feral claw. He doesn't seem hard enough to warrent trying any 'cheese' strategies.

Oh well I havent tried fighting him yet after all the balance and tier changes.
Before it was absolutely tedious to get Sanguine Staff

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

It's easier to get the sanguine, and you deal much more damage straight out from killing the queen bee. They made summoner much stronger right off the start of hardmode, and now the sanguine is the only viable weapon, since it's not only easy to get, it now takes very little time. If you ask me, that's making the progression worse. (Pre-hardmode is better, however.)
You're also counting summons + megashark. Ranger is extremely busted in dps already, compared to the other classes. To say sanguine with megashark is slightly better than a full megashark build isn't a sign of balance, it's a sign of being way too strong.

As for the pygmy necklace, no? A bit of a dumb question but, have you used a ballista? For real, just use that and you'd have the smoothest of smooth sailings with the wall. It's the same thing for melee, just use a starfury, ya know? It might make it easier during the wall, but it's not like it was hard, either. Ballistas are extremely underrated for reasons like such.

I was making that comparison because a hybridized summoner build is naturally the strongest. My last playthrough was ranged-summon only, and I had a build that maximized both Sanguines and Megashark to the biggest effect - hallowed helm, huntress chestplate and spider greaves, as well as avenger emblem as an offensive accessory. I found that, compared to a ranger-oriented build with full ranger gear, I pulled higher DPS but was also considerably squishier versus the mechs and Plantera. In my book, that’s a fair weight for balance.

And yeah, I have used Ballista for wall, and I have to say, it’s very impractical. Compared to a Phoenix Blaster, or a Demon Scythe, or a Water Bolt... a summoner build worked down the Wall about half as fast when abusing the Ballista, and then without Ballista cheese, a summoner stands no chance versus the Wall.

In addition, extra minions are multiplied, but as you get more minions the boost lessens. Think of it this way: 1 to 2 minions is a 100% damage boost, but 5 to 6 (the current prehardmode boost) is only 20%. Granted, it’s still 20%, but it’s a much needed 20%. Then going in to Hardmode and spider becomes available, 6 to 7 minions is only a 16% damage boost. There’s also the fact that many minions have a weird antisynergy with themselves where more minions will actually cause less shots to land, best example being Imps. The damage actually begins tk even itself out.

Once you get into Hardmode, the necklace is suddenly competing with wings, cross necklace, Emblems, and sometimes other accessories. Fitting it in to your build becomes harder, so it’s more of a buff to the painfully underwhelming preHardmode Summoner.

Pygmy Necklace is a pretty substantial buff, but I very strongly believe that it was a good choice and is very valuable to summoners without being broken.

 

[Shady Glasses]

no I didn't I mostly stayed on the ground and dodged between shots, when he did his charge attack I SoC bounced off of him.

ah, that's more skillfull than you'd think. Dodging random attacks that have no pattern is kind of scuffed.

 

[Shady Glasses]

I was making that comparison because a hybridized summoner build is naturally the strongest. My last playthrough was ranged-summon only, and I had a build that maximized both Sanguines and Megashark to the biggest effect - hallowed helm, huntress chestplate and spider greaves, as well as avenger emblem as an offensive accessory. I found that, compared to a ranger-oriented build with full ranger gear, I pulled higher DPS but was also considerably squishier versus the mechs and Plantera. In my book, that’s a fair weight for balance.

And yeah, I have used Ballista for wall, and I have to say, it’s very impractical. Compared to a Phoenix Blaster, or a Demon Scythe, or a Water Bolt... a summoner build worked down the Wall about half as fast when abusing the Ballista, and then without Ballista cheese, a summoner stands no chance versus the Wall.

In addition, extra minions are multiplied, but as you get more minions the boost lessens. Think of it this way: 1 to 2 minions is a 100% damage boost, but 5 to 6 (the current prehardmode boost) is only 20%. Granted, it’s still 20%, but it’s a much needed 20%. Then going in to Hardmode and spider becomes available, 6 to 7 minions is only a 16% damage boost. There’s also the fact that many minions have a weird antisynergy with themselves where more minions will actually cause less shots to land, best example being Imps. The damage actually begins tk even itself out.

Once you get into Hardmode, the necklace is suddenly competing with wings, cross necklace, Emblems, and sometimes other accessories. Fitting it in to your build becomes harder, so it’s more of a buff to the painfully underwhelming preHardmode Summoner.

Pygmy Necklace is a pretty substantial buff, but I very strongly believe that it was a good choice and is very valuable to summoners without being broken.

Did you use whips? I'm assuming not if you used megashark most of the time. Focusing on more summoner slots + whips + ichor definetly wields better results than that.
Ballistas are extremely practical, spam clicking them is the best way to go about it, they deal strong, piercing damage and basically don't miss, it's a good chunk of damage. They are in fact weaker than the other classes still, but the way they went for balancing it ultimately made the situation more unbalanced in the long run.
The whole summoner damage thing, yes it deals diminishing returns, but even a 16% damage increase is a lot for a fast, strong minion that doesn't miss.

Also, competing with wings, cross necklace and etc. is just kind of not true. Sure, things such as the cross necklace are fine, but if you're focusing on damage you will never use those. I have never used a cross necklace, always opting for more damage. This mentality actually flourishes really well into "post-black spot" terraria, where you can get replacements for wings very early on. It also doesn't matter that much because there are not enough accessories for summoner that actually require you to take a few out for the sake of wings, which are really the only ones that are almost obligatory (in fact, you can very much use all summoner accessories at once and still have slots remaining.) There are very few accessories in terraria that are actually worth using over damage increases, but that's just a different issue. Pygmy staff is a good buff for pre-hardmode, but it absolutely helps in completely destroying hardmode to pre-celestial summoner progression, by indirectly buffing the strongest summon available.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

This doesn't seem like a fair compariosn to me, bee armor doesn't give you +4 minions it only gives you 2, there's no downside to a summoning potion and betwitching table so why wouldn't the ranger use them?

I had time to go in and redo the first set

Necro Armor, Phoenix Blaster, 3 Minions

Vampire: 36 seconds, 160-210 DPS

Hornet: 38 seconds, 140-210 DPS

Imp: 35 DPS, 150-220 DPS

Evidently, the extra summons make that little edge, bit didn’t have as much an effect as I would have thought. Still only slightly stronger than the other, more summoner-focused builds. Took two trials for each and averaged them, although I’m not confident with what I pulled for Imps so I may try again.

It still shows that Imp is better for hybrid builds and Hornet for pure builds and that Vampire Frog is perhaps slightly overstatted

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

Did you use whips? I'm assuming not if you used megashark most of the time. Focusing on more summoner slots + whips + ichor definetly wields better results than that.
Ballistas are extremely practical, spam clicking them is the best way to go about it, they deal strong, piercing damage and basically don't miss, it's a good chunk of damage. They are in fact weaker than the other classes still, but the way they went for balancing it ultimately made the situation more unbalanced in the long run.
The whole summoner damage thing, yes it deals diminishing returns, but even a 16% damage increase is a lot for a fast, strong minion that doesn't miss.

Also, competing with wings, cross necklace and etc. is just kind of not true. Sure, things such as the cross necklace are fine, but if you're focusing on damage you will never use those. I have never used a cross necklace, always opting for more damage. This mentality actually flourishes really well into "post-black spot" terraria, where you can get replacements for wings very early on. It also doesn't matter that much because there are not enough accessories for summoner that actually require you to take a few out for the sake of wings, which are really the only ones that are almost obligatory (in fact, you can very much use all summoner accessories at once and still have slots remaining.) There are very few accessories in terraria that are actually worth using over damage increases, but that's just a different issue. Pygmy staff is a good buff for pre-hardmode, but it absolutely helps in completely destroying hardmode to pre-celestial summoner progression, by indirectly buffing the strongest summon available.

Whips really are not balanced around hybridization. Their tag bonus only lasts a measley 4 seconds, short enough to where switching back and forth to whip the enemy not only puts yourself in an awkward position but also doesn’t net any return. If I wanted ichor, it’s also available as bullets - in both cases, I used crystal for Plantera as I always do, but switching to ichor would have had a similar effect in both cases.

Ballistas have a respawn rate of approx. half a second if you’re highly accurate. A good summoner build would probably pull 50 damage on a ballista. Sounds like a lot, but compare it to Phoenix Blaster (~35 damage, up to 5-6 times a second), Demon Scythe (~45-50 damage, about 3 times a second),etc. it doesn’t pull as well even including minion boosts. The 20% on Pygmy *that doesnt even apply to ballista* helps close that gap.

I have found that I’m always juggling accessories. Cross necklace to not take unneccesay double hits, anti knockback, wings, boots, survivability, damage accessories, etc. even with 7 slots, it’s still a tough balance.

It’s also a matter of risk vs. reward, yeah if I swapped out accessories for Plantera for a summoner emblem and ranger emblem, I’d pull even more damage, but then either my mobility is limited or I get killed in two hits. Plus, same applies to ranged build - I could theoretically add more emblems(tm) or reforge everything to menacing rather than go half menacing half warding, and my damage goes up but survivability goes down.

 

[qwerty3.14]

I had time to go in and redo the first set

Necro Armor, Phoenix Blaster, 3 Minions

Vampire: 36 seconds, 160-210 DPS

Hornet: 38 seconds, 140-210 DPS

Imp: 35 DPS, 150-220 DPS

Evidently, the extra summons make that little edge, bit didn’t have as much an effect as I would have thought. Still only slightly stronger than the other, more summoner-focused builds. Took two trials for each and averaged them, although I’m not confident with what I pulled for Imps so I may try again.

It still shows that Imp is better for hybrid builds and Hornet for pure builds and that Vampire Frog is perhaps slightly overstatted

I feel like the bee armor build should be doing more damage than the necro armor build since it has a bit less defense, this is why I feel that the imp and hronet staff could use some buffs although it doesn't seem like they'll need to be too major.

Also... are your weapons reforged?

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

I feel like the bee armor build should be doing more damage than the necro armor build since it has a bit less defense, this is why I feel that the imp and hronet staff could use some buffs although it doesn't seem like they'll need to be too major.

Yeah that would make sense.

To be fair these are very rough tests done using a stopwatch app and the ingame DPS meter. I did do each group multiple times to get the best numbers, but some things may be slightly inaccurate.

I’m still fairly confident in everything I’ve grabbed, however, since I tested many times, so maybe hornets are a bit weak? Idk.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

I feel like the bee armor build should be doing more damage than the necro armor build since it has a bit less defense, this is why I feel that the imp and hronet staff could use some buffs although it doesn't seem like they'll need to be too major.

Also... are your weapons reforged?

Ran all weapons tbrough journey copying to remove reforges

 

[Shady Glasses]

Whips really are not balanced around hybridization. Their tag bonus only lasts a measley 4 seconds, short enough to where switching back and forth to whip the enemy not only puts yourself in an awkward position but also doesn’t net any return. If I wanted ichor, it’s also available as bullets - in both cases, I used crystal for Plantera as I always do, but switching to ichor would have had a similar effect in both cases.

Ballistas have a respawn rate of approx. half a second if you’re highly accurate. A good summoner build would probably pull 50 damage on a ballista. Sounds like a lot, but compare it to Phoenix Blaster (~35 damage, up to 5-6 times a second), Demon Scythe (~45-50 damage, about 3 times a second),etc. it doesn’t pull as well even including minion boosts. The 20% on Pygmy *that doesnt even apply to ballista* helps close that gap.

I have found that I’m always juggling accessories. Cross necklace to not take unneccesay double hits, anti knockback, wings, boots, survivability, damage accessories, etc. even with 7 slots, it’s still a tough balance.

It’s also a matter of risk vs. reward, yeah if I swapped out accessories for Plantera for a summoner emblem and ranger emblem, I’d pull even more damage, but then either my mobility is limited or I get killed in two hits.

Their tag bonus means you need to constantly hit whatever you're fighting against. In the end, it's a strong damage increase. don't try to defend a class' balance options if you're not using them to their fullest. Ballistas are still good against the wall, and unlike all of those weapons mentioned, they're a secondary addition, as you can still fend off a lot of hungries and even attack the wall with your minions if you're good enough.

I have never used accessories like those, except wings and shields (only when i really can't replace them for anything else). I'd rather rely on myself rather than accessories, because once you lose that, you can severely screw yourself. Damage accessories are better for the simple philosophy of "the enemy can't kill you if you kill them first".

 

[qwerty3.14]

Ran all weapons tbrough journey copying to remove reforges

I think reforging weapons might put a bit more bias in the necro build since the pheonix blaster can get +damge + speed and +crit, while the minions only get +damage, it will probably be a relatively small bias.

 

[whoneedsnamestbh]

I think reforging weapons might put a bit more bias in the necro build since the pheonix blaster can get +damge + speed and +crit, while the minions only get +damage, it will probably be a relatively small bias.

Ranged weapons can get 15% damage and 5% crit, and summonweapons can get18% damage. Difference is prob negligible.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Their tag bonus means you need to constantly hit whatever you're fighting against. In the end, it's a strong damage increase. don't try to defend a class' balance options if you're not using them to their fullest. Ballistas are still good against the wall, and unlike all of those weapons mentioned, they're a secondary addition, as you can still fend off a lot of hungries and even attack the wall with your minions if you're good enough.

I have never used accessories like those, except wings and shields (only when i really can't replace them for anything else). I'd rather rely on myself rather than accessories, because once you lose that, you can severely screw yourself. Damage accessories are better for the simple philosophy of "the enemy can't kill you if you kill them first".

I almost never used the pygmy necklace, there are two accesroies that do its job objectievly better and those are obtained not long after it. After I use those two accesories its got some rough competition with the celstial shell, and the emblems.

The retiring of the pygmy necklace means that I finally see some use for it.

 

[Shady Glasses]

Ranged weapons can get 15% damage and 5% crit, and summonweapons can get18% damage. Difference is prob negligible.

ACKTCHUALLY

speed too, so like 1% higher dps

 

[Dapling]

You're circling him, right?

I assume so, that's the rulebook tactic to beating every single boss in the game.

Wall of flesh: exists

 

[Shady Glasses]

I almost never used the pygmy necklace, there are two accesroies that do its job objectievly better and those are obtained not long after it. After I use those two accesories its got some rough competition with the celstial shell, and the emblems.

The retiring of the pygmy necklace means that I finally see some use for it.

you know, there is no competition between summoner accessories. Like, at all? An extra minion is better than just a damage increase, despite the diminishing returns.

 

[qwerty3.14]

you know, there is no competition between summoner accessories. Like, at all? An extra minion is better than just a damage increase, despite the diminishing returns.

No... that is not even remotely true

 

[Shady Glasses]

Wall of flesh: exists

you knew what i meant...

 

[Shady Glasses]

No... that is not even remotely true

it really is, specially considering when it's not giving diminish returns, like with the stardust dragon. At the end of the day it's best to have more minions, specially considering how the good endgame choices don't need to aim.