Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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SsIras said:
In 1.4, Rainbow Crystal Staff was buffed to explode faster, which made it a much more consistent weapon, however, this was also accompanied by a massive damage nerf (150->80). I believe this nerf was actually unnecessary.
Here's the performance of other Moon Lord gear using godmode and valhalla set, each having 30 seconds against golem:


Star Wrath
View attachment 294815
Lunar Portal
View attachment 294816
Rainbow Crystal
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The reason you're seeing such a difference in DPS is because you're testing only against Golem. The Rainbow Crystal Staff performs better than Lunar Portal Staff against invasions (since it can fire multiple beams at once), but worse against single targets. Each has its own niche and I think they're pretty well balanced against each other, though they could probably both afford to be better compared to other ML drops.
 
Shady Glasses said:
it really is, specially considering when it's not giving diminish returns, like with the stardust dragon. At the end of the day it's best to have more minions, specially considering how the good endgame choices don't need to aim.
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In the early game there are a lot of minions that have iFrame issue to where going past 3 minions is kind of redundent, in the late game there are enough minions to where boosting the damage, of all of them will do more than addding 1 more minion.
 
qwerty3.14 said:
In the early game there are a lot of minions that have iFrame issue to where going past 3 minions is kind of redundent, in the late game there are enough minions to where boosting the damage, of all of them will do more than addding 1 more minion.
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and there's only one accessory in early game for summoners, lol

i was talking in the mid-way point, where summoner accessories start to exist, and where the other guy said there's competition.
 
Shady Glasses said:
and there's only one accessory in early game for summoners, lol

i was talking in the mid-way point, where summoner accessories start to exist, and where the other guy said there's competition.
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the feral claws give whips autoswing, and whips get faster with melee speed, so there's that too. Heck whips probably take advantage of it better than pre hardmode melee does.
 
Now that I think about I think the volatile gelatin could use a buff, it used be be an alright filler accessory to add a bit of passive damage, however now with the pygmy necklace re-tier an extra bat it provides would do its job better.
 
@whoneedsnamestbh Do you think the sharpening station applies to minions bug makes enough difference to try a melee summoner build? 12 armor penetration should be roughly equal to 6 summon tag damage on sufficiently armored enemies but the penetration is always active and you get to use a melee weapon instead of a whip. You could try juggling whip and melee to keep the summon tag damage bonus up at the same time as penetration if you don't want to attack with the melee weapon. It gives an excuse to use Bee Keeper which almost seems like a summoner weapon.
 
Mail said:
@whoneedsnamestbh Do you think the sharpening station applies to minions bug makes enough difference to try a melee summoner build? 12 armor penetration should be roughly equal to 6 summon tag damage on sufficiently armored enemies but the penetration is always active and you get to use a melee weapon instead of a whip. You could try juggling whip and melee to keep the summon tag damage bonus up at the same time as penetration if you don't want to attack with the melee weapon. It gives an excuse to use Bee Keeper which almost seems like a summoner weapon.
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I don’t think I’m gonna be testing any more builds, I was only trying to judge the power of Hornets, Vampire Frog and Obsidian Armor since I figured it would be helpful for balancing those items in particular. If you want to see how well it works yourself though then more power to you
 
Mail said:
@whoneedsnamestbh Do you think the sharpening station applies to minions bug makes enough difference to try a melee summoner build? 12 armor penetration should be roughly equal to 6 summon tag damage on sufficiently armored enemies but the penetration is always active and you get to use a melee weapon instead of a whip. You could try juggling whip and melee to keep the summon tag damage bonus up at the same time as penetration if you don't want to attack with the melee weapon. It gives an excuse to use Bee Keeper which almost seems like a summoner weapon.
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I just tested this bug and it seems to have been fixed
 
@whoneedsnamestbh Did you try using feral claws with your whips? They give whips autoswing now and since obsidian armor gives whips a massive speed boost the feral claws massively improves the effectiveness of that boost.
 
I'd like to bring up the matter of summoner staff sound effects again, which I don't think was ever looked into for 1.4.1. I'm pretty sure the new Flinx Staff also uses the Deadly Sphere summon sound effect, like many of the others added in 1.4.0 – which, being a mechanical/digital sound effect, is decidedly not aesthetically suited to those summon weapons.

Flinx Staff — Item_113 -> Item_44
JohannSimm said:
All the summon weapons introduced in 1.4, with the apparent exception of the Vampire Frog staff, use the Deadly Sphere Staff use sound effect, which is very metallic and digital-sounding. It doesn't suit many of the new summon weapons well at all, as it was intended to be the unique sound of the Deadly Sphere Staff. It seems almost as if the sound effect just got copied when the new items were created, and was never changed.

Summoner Weapon Sounds
Item_44 – The default summoner weapon sound. A diminutive croak.
Item_76 – The unique sound of the Hornet Staff. A fluttering whoosh.
Item_77 – The unique sound of the Imp Staff. A hollow whoosh.
Item_82 – The unique sound of the Optic Staff. A mechanical whoosh.
Item_83 – The unique sound of the Spider Staff. A chittering whoosh.
Item_113 – Formerly the unique sound of the Deadly Sphere Staff. A robotic/arcane whoosh. Currently used for six staves, five of which are new.

Meanwhile, large numbers of summon weapons introduced in previous updates still use the Item_44 sound effect, including both Stardust staves. The sound is extremely basic, and, in my opinion, ill-suited to the endgame summon staves.

Below are my suggestions for what I think should be changed, along with my reasoning:

Pre-Hardmode Summon Weapons
Finch Staff — Item_113 -> Item_44 (Item_44 is the best fit here, as it sounds like a small animal.)
Slime Staff — Item_44
Hornet Staff — Item_76
Vampire Frog Staff — Item_44
Imp Staff — Item_77

Hardmode Summon Weapons
Spider Staff — Item_83
Blade Staff — Item_113 -> Item_77 (The Imp Staff's sound is the most neutral of the sounds, and I think it suits an arcane dagger.)
Sanguine Staff — Item_113 -> Item_83 (The chittering Spider Staff sound is well-suited to a bat minion.)
Optic Staff — Item_82
Pirate Staff — Item_44
Pygmy Staff — Item_44
Raven Staff — Item_44
Desert Tiger Staff — Item_113 -> Item_77 (The Desert Tiger sound should be more majestic than Item_44, but not robotic like it is now. Once again, the Imp Staff's sound is the best fit.)
Tempest Staff — Item_44 -> Item_77 (The Imp Staff's whoosh is a better fit for an arcane shark-hurling whirlpool than the unassuming Item_44.)
Deadly Sphere Staff — Item_113
Xeno Staff — Item_44 -> Item_82 (The Optic Staff sound fits the flavour of a Martian Saucer better than Item_44.)
Stardust Cell Staff — Item_44 -> Item_113 (Item_113 sounds both technological and arcane, giving the Stardust staves the dramatic sound they deserve.)
Stardust Dragon Staff — Item_44 -> Item_113 (See above.)
Terraprisma — Item_113 (This one can be left as is, as the Deadly Sphere Staff sound already suits it well.)

I also have a suggestion for changes to the Sentry sound effects. For some reason, the Rainbow Crystal Staff and Lunar Portal Staff use the same sound effect as the Queen Spider Staff, which is very chittery and spider-like. It's too specific, and was obviously created for that staff alone. I think the two Moon Lord staves should use the same sounds as the Staff of the Frost Hydra.

(Clarification: The Queen Spider Staff and Staff of the Frost Hydra have both a "Use" sound effect and "Summon" sound effect. The Moon Lord staves only have a "Use" sound effect.)

Hardmode Sentry Staves (Tavernkeep sentries not included, as they have their own set of consistent sound effects.)
Queen Spider Staff — Item_78 + Item_46
Staff of the Frost Hydra — Item_1 + Item_46
Rainbow Crystal Staff — Item_78 -> [Item_1 + Item_46] (Change to same pair of sounds as Staff of the Frost Hydra.)
Lunar Portal Staff — Item_78 -> [Item_1 + Item_46] (Change to same pair of sounds as Staff of the Frost Hydra.)

(Possibly, Item_113 + Item_46 could be used for the Moon Lord staves.)
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qwerty3.14 said:
I just tested this bug and it seems to have been fixed
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It is most definitely not fixed. When testing make sure you are holding the melee weapon while damage is being dealt and that the enemy has enough defense.
An additional 6 damage per hit seems like a lot, especially on fast attacking pre-hardmode minions.
 
I know I've already brought this up, but how difficult would it be to have the Timeless Traveller crafting recipe use Tattered Cloth instead of Rotten Chunks, and the Plaguebringer crafting recipe use Vile/Vicious Powder instead of Vertebrae?

I find these materials much better-suited to the sets thematically. In addition, this change would make it so the sets are no longer locked to specific evil biomes, while still retaining their pre-Hardmode availability. How likely is it that such a change would be considered?
 
Out of curiosity since now we have access to Lava Proof Tackle bag in pre hardmode basically.

What is the point of Hotline Fishing Hook now?
5 more quests after it and we get the Golden Rod.

Seems like the Hotline Fishing Hook is almost useless now.
Not complaining about it just wanted to point that out.
 
Unrelated to most of the stuff here but did Leaf Wings ever get nerfed in 1.4? It basically completely gets rid of the struggle of gaining wings, and they're way too good for how early they can be acquired.
EDIT: Nvm just checked they did get nerfed. They seem pretty balanced now.
 
Adventurer32 said:
Unrelated to most of the stuff here but did Leaf Wings ever get nerfed in 1.4? It basically completely gets rid of the struggle of gaining wings, and they're way too good for how early they can be acquired.
EDIT: Nvm just checked they did get nerfed. They seem pretty balanced now.
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Yea Leaf Wings got slight nerf to flight speed and height from what i recall they are worse than Pixie Wings now.
 
Adventurer32 said:
Unrelated to most of the stuff here but did Leaf Wings ever get nerfed in 1.4? It basically completely gets rid of the struggle of gaining wings, and they're way too good for how early they can be acquired.
EDIT: Nvm just checked they did get nerfed. They seem pretty balanced now.
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They did, although still obtainable on the same way, they're now on par with angel/demon wings.
 
CellarDoor96 said:
The reason you're seeing such a difference in DPS is because you're testing only against Golem. The Rainbow Crystal Staff performs better than Lunar Portal Staff against invasions (since it can fire multiple beams at once), but worse against single targets. Each has its own niche and I think they're pretty well balanced against each other, though they could probably both afford to be better compared to other ML drops.
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Not quite true though.

Lunar Portal
Two minutes against Celestial Pillar
index.php

Against OOA T3
lunarportal.png

Rainbow Crystal
Two minutes against Celestial Pillar
rc.png

Against OOA T3
rainbowcrystal.png

You could argue that I should have used the same pillar or complain about the positions of the turrets, but it's clear there is a gap in power between them. And even if there isn't, the results also show how bad both of these weapons are.
I think the nerf to RCS should be reverted and maybe buff Lunar Portal a little.
 

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