1.4.4 Summoner Minion, Whip & Armor In-Depth Tier List

[Toxophilite [East]]

Since sentries are finally viable, are you going to tier them one day?

Sentries have always been viable, even in 1.3.5, I think the better word is probably "streamlined" [like most changes in 1.4.4].

A lot of players have just had really bad fundamentals for a long time, a very long time actually. However, seeing as how we practically have a brand new "Master Mode+", I don't see an issue with any of the newer, more streamlined changes. Sentries behaving similarly to how they do during OOA Invasions, only makes sense honestly.

Having more & stronger Sanguine bats on an otherwise Mage setup was what made the Forbidden Armor seem strong on paper, but now that Sanguine Staff is nerfed It's harder than ever to justify using it for how rare it is. Maybe a setup that involves whip stacking Blade Staff w/ Cool Whip while waiting for mana to regenerate could be strong, but tests would be needed.

You're practically the "King/ Queen of Whips" at this point [LoL], but I suspect that Sanguine Staff was such a crutch, that nearly every tier-appropriate Armor would also take a hit as well, right??

That being said, I do think it should be considered just how much DMG potential lies in stacking Nimbus, Clinger Wall and Ancient Sand Storm 25%/25% [and maybe even a Sentry or two]. I don't plan on campaigning for this Armor Set or anything, but I've already seen the complaints about Summoner being neutered in this update, even if some of use know better...

EDIT: Also, more Buff Slots, so every Mana Power advantage can be used, along with the new and improved Mana Bottle/ Lamps.

 

[Shyguymask]

TIER LIST IS UPDATED TO 1.4.4!!

I know I said I wasn't planning on updating it anytime soon, but I suddenly found myself motivated and went and done it anyway. Nearly every single description has been remade from the ground up, and I tried to streamline my explanations a bit in general (for better or worse, but I prefer the way it is now with it being a bit more straight to the point). I'm also taking multiclassing more into account now compared to before, which affected a few rankings.

---

List of ranking changes (a few comes from reconsideration rather than buffs or nerfs):

Abigail: A to B+
Finch Staff: A- to A
Slime Staff: B to B-
Hornet Staff: B- to A
Pirate Staff: B- to C
Sanguine Staff: S+ to S-
Optic Staff: B- to A-
Pygmy Staff: C- to C
Desert Tiger Staff: A to S-
Deadly Sphere Staff: C to A+
Xeno Staff: A- to S
Tempest Staff: C+ to B+
Stardust Dragon Staff: S to S-
Stardust Cell Staff: S- to A

Snapthorn: S+ to S
Spinal Tap: S- to A-
Firecracker: S to S-
Cool Whip: B+ to A+
Durendal: S to A+
Dark Harvest: S to A+
Morning Star: B- to S-
Kaleidoscope: S- to A+

Flinx Coat: A to S
Obsidian Armor: S+ to A+
Forbidden Armor: A- to B+
Hallowed Armor: S to S-
Tiki Armor: B- to S-

 

[Teiull]

overall happy with current rankings, I would still bump spooky armor too S- because of it's pure power as a offensive armor set, tiki is safer but spooky is by far superior in terms of damage output, especially on broom setups.

 

[qwerty3.14]

Desert Tiger Staff: S-
Rare to see in a playthrough unless you got lucky or went out of your way to grind for it. However, it's worth it. It hits like a truck coupled with Firecracker, resulting in the best DPS of all minions at this point until Xeno Staff and beyond assuming you are at least somewhat brave with Firecracker. Thankfully, the Tiki Armor whip range buff made Firecracker much safer to use consistently, which in turn makes Desert Tiger an even better option this update. It's hard to obtain and requires some bravery with Firecracker to maximize its potential, but those are up to the task will be rewarded with one of the best weapons in the game at this stage of the game.

Deadly Sphere Staff: A+
One of the most buffed weapons in this update, the Deadly Sphere Staff went from being a joke of a weapon severely outclassed by Blade & Sanguine, to outshining the two of them in most situations. Besides its very good damage output, its method of attacking makes it even more favorable against crowds of enemies and bosses with multiple parts. It doesn't even need whips to be able to cut through regular enemies like a hot knife through butter. In fact, it competes with Raven Staff despite it being obtained later in progression, beating it in some aspects including speed and crowd control. However, because it attacks by moving in "dashes", it can struggle to catch up to faster moving bosses like Pumpking or Empress of Light chasing you. Similarly to Optic Staff, it also gets stuck all the time in tight spaces like the Post-Plantera dungeon, however in Deadly Sphere's case this enables a funny blender strategy against Lunatic Cultist.

Raven Staff: A
Although a bit slower and less consistent than Deadly Sphere Staff, it has higher single target DPS which is mainly valuable for Empress of Light. An offensive setup using Witch Broom not only makes the Raven AI more consistent, but combined with more damage accessories this makes Raven kill Empress of Light impressively fast, even if still somewhat slower than Desert Tiger.

A few disagreements here
First of all on a high dps broom setup tiger is NOT better than raven, On my most recent test with morning star + darvest + raven vs Firecracker + morning star + Darvest + Tiger, I got 33 seconds vs 37 seconds. Tiger did 4 seconds worst while stacking an additional whip with less range.
With pre pumpkin moon gear desert tiger needs firecracker to beat deadly sphere at Empress of light and pre witch broom the range difference between cracker and morning is much more notceable.

Now for pumpkin moon, for me deadly sphere performs noticeable better than tiger a pumpkin moon. The reason tiger did better than deadly for you kept flying up during pumpking fights, this caused less stuff to spawn which not only resulted in you getting less points but prevented deadly's CC from doing much. I don't think there's many players whole will be aggressive enough to stack firecracker with 2 other whips yet not aggressive enough to keep pumpkin moon a crowd control event.

The gap between tiger and deadly widens dramatically when you get better gear. Did some new Pumpkin moon tests with a high dps post pumpkin moon gear and got.
Desert tiger: 17,704 points
Raven: 20,646 points
Deadly: 23,924 points
Xeno: 24,704 points

I actually think desert tiger is a bit weaker now that morning star is good I'm not as motivated to try and make firecracker a post plant whip, in addition desert tiger recasts are dead now.
I find little reason to use tiger in an actual playthrough the only time it can have a niche over deadly is before is pre pumpkin moon, but not pumpkin moon itself, just if I decide to do EoL before pumpkin moon.
Meanwhile deadly sphere still has a niche over raven, tiger does not seem to.|
Still need to test other events but in my 'all weapons' tier list I think deadly gets an A, Desert Tiger and raven get B. (I'm more strict with my S tiers).

 

[Schparks!]

I find it interesting that most of the summoner items are above C tier now.

It seems 1.4.4 was, overall, very kind to the Summoner class.

What would be your favorite set-up, regardless of game progression?

 

[Shyguymask]

I find it interesting that most of the summoner items are above C tier now.

It seems 1.4.4 was, overall, very kind to the Summoner class.

What would be your favorite set-up, regardless of game progression?

My favorite setups right now are:

Minmaxed early game Summoner in general

Hive Pack + Hornets + Bee's Knees + Bee Armor

Blade Staff + Cool Whip in general

Kaleidoscope + Morning Star + Durendal + Dark Harvest all stacked

 

[JeraldGaming2888]

Cool, now show us Summoner 1.4.4 progression loadouts guide.

 

[Shyguymask]

First of all on a high dps broom setup tiger is NOT better than raven, On my most recent test with morning star + darvest + raven vs Firecracker + morning star + Darvest + Tiger, I got 33 seconds vs 37 seconds. Tiger did 4 seconds worst while stacking an additional whip with less range.

In my own non-mounted Nighttime EoL tests, Tiger performed several seconds better than Raven Staff. Wasn't grinding for fastest speedkill as both minions had AI shenanigans during the fight, but the point is there.

If anything I think Desert Tiger should be able perform just as good if not better on a Witch Broom. Let me go test...

...Okay I'm back.

You told me you did those tests on Expert mode on Discord and also started counting on Lacewing kill, so with my rules your killtimes (on first hit) are actually 30 on Raven and 34 on Desert Tiger. Meanwhile with a Witch Broom setup and on Master, I got 32 on Desert Tiger and 34-35 on Raven. Desert Tiger I learned is less reliable on Witch Broom though, but in any cases I'm not dropping Desert Tiger yet.

Now for pumpkin moon, for me deadly sphere performs noticeable better than tiger a pumpkin moon. The reason tiger did better than deadly for you kept flying up during pumpking fights, this caused less stuff to spawn which not only resulted in you getting less points but prevented deadly's CC from doing much. I don't think there's many players whole will be aggressive enough to stack firecracker with 2 other whips yet not aggressive enough to keep pumpkin moon a crowd control event.

The problem is that what matters is not primarily the points, it's obtaining loot from the minibosses. Deadly Sphere can squeeze more points through killing smaller enemies faster, but Desert Tiger is better at what actually matters: Killing the minibosses (especially Pumpking) faster, leading to more loots and actually progressing through the game more efficiently. Yes sure, later waves increases the drop rate of items, but it doesn't outweigh the fact Desert Tiger will be killing more minibosses in general which also leads to more frequent heart drop packs thus more safety at the same time.

 

[qwerty3.14]

In my own non-mounted Nighttime EoL tests, Tiger performed several seconds better than Raven Staff. Wasn't grinding for fastest speedkill as both minions had AI shenanigans during the fight, but the point is there.

In your tier list you specificly talked about raven being slightly slower than tiger ON A BROOM which is what I was objecting too. Let's just say its about the same and move on.

You already know how I feel about wings vs witch broom.

The problem is that what matters is not primarily the points, it's obtaining loot from the minibosses. Deadly Sphere can squeeze more points through killing smaller enemies faster, but Desert Tiger is better at what actually matters: Killing the minibosses (especially Pumpking) faster, leading to more loots and actually progressing through the game more efficiently. Yes sure, later waves increases the drop rate of items, but it doesn't outweigh the fact Desert Tiger will be killing more minibosses in general which also leads to more frequent heart drop packs thus more safety at the same time.

Tiger having better survival than sphere is contrary to my experience where I get about 2 tiger deaths for every deadly death. I think its related to firecrackers shorter range, reduced focus from stacking a third whip, and on high dps build not being able to attack 2+ minibosses at the same time. Seems weird to me that someone who ranks tiki above spooky just doesn't seem to care about firecracker's shorter ranger.
On higher dps builds its not "just squeezing points from smaller enemies" Its spending most of the night attacking two minibosses at once, which is how it got near xeno performance.

 

[Shyguymask]

Let's just say its about the same and move on.

Why would I though? This is my tier list and with my own tests that seem to be more optimized than yours, Tiger can finish off EoL faster. What gives?

Tiger having better survival than sphere is contrary to my experience where I get about 2 tiger deaths for every deadly death

This is nothing more than an anecdote and doesn't affect anything I pointed out. The problem is you.

and on high dps build not being able to attack 2+ minibosses at the same time.

Firecracker's explosion also damages nearby enemies to a lesser extent. Tiger performs vastly better on multiple stacked minibosses than you're suggesting.

Seems weird to me that someone who ranks tiki above spooky just doesn't seem to care about firecracker's shorter ranger.

Tiki vastly increases Firecracker's range to the point of making it a lot easier and safer to use. That's the whole point??

most of the night

"most" is an exaggeration.

 

[qwerty3.14]

This is nothing more than an anecdote and doesn't affect anything I pointed out. The problem is you.

And I provided 3 possible explanations for this

Tiki vastly increases Firecracker's range to the point of making it a lot easier and safer to use. That's the whole point??

We're comparing morning star to firecracker Whether you opt into tiki or not morning star has more range.
What I'm saying is that you're willing to give up some damage output for range but when it comes to comparing tiger to a minion that doesn't need firecracker to get close to the same dps suddenly tiger's reliance on firecracker doesn't matter.

Firecracker's explosion also damages nearby enemies to a lesser extent. Tiger performs vastly better on multiple stacked minibosses than you're suggesting.

Firecracker's AoE is much smaller than the area a whip or deadly dash covers. Pumpkings AI often out sync each other, so you can end up with 1 in rush mode and 1 in 'greek fire' mode. They aren't stacked just near each other. Stacked morning woods are more common but not as common as two morning woods that are just near each other.
How else do you explain this:

The gap between tiger and deadly widens dramatically when you get better gear. Did some new Pumpkin moon tests with a high dps post pumpkin moon gear and got.
Desert tiger: 17,704 points
Raven: 20,646 points
Deadly: 23,924 points
Xeno: 24,704 points

"most" is an exaggeration.

Here's a video of the pumpkin moon that got that 23,924 score.
I got to wave 20 at 12:17AM so just under half the night I was dealing with constant minibosses, and I fought a few doubles before that. Might be in the 40%s if you count the time between kills.

 

[Shyguymask]

And I provided 3 possible explanations for this

Firecracker's range is not an issue with Tiki Armor, you don't need to stack three whips and "not being able to attack 2+ minibosses at the same time" is simply false.

What I'm saying is that you're willing to give up some damage output for range but when it comes to comparing tiger to a minion that doesn't need firecracker to get close to the same dps suddenly tiger's reliance on firecracker doesn't matter.

The reason I use Firecracker with Desert Tiger is because Firecracker is the best whip to increase damage with it. The reason I use Morning Star with Deadly/Raven is because Morning Star is the best whip to increase damage. If Firecracker was the biggest damage increase for Raven/Deadly, I'd use it with them instead of primarily Morning Star. I'm choosing the whips here based on damage contribution, not primarily range/safety. Morning Star setups have a range advantage over Firecracker setups, but Desert Tiger more than makes up for it through sheer damage output with Firecracker.

Pumpkings AI often out sync each other, so you can end up with 1 in rush mode and 1 in 'greek fire' mode. They aren't stacked just near each other. Stacked morning woods are more common but not as common as two morning woods that are just near each other.

Likewise Deadly Sphere dashes may not line up properly and hit both Pumpkings if they are spaced

Here's a video of the pumpkin moon that got that 23,924 score.

This tier list is for a playthrough in the context of tackling Pumpkin Moon with Pre-Pmoon equipment or with partial Pmoon equipment, not post-EoL equipment including Kaleidoscope. Let alone playing for highest score. Even with that you admitted that it's not "most".

 

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

How are you guys stacking whips and switching so effectively while moving at the same time? I'm having trouble whip stacking effectively, and can't really figure out a good hotkey setup, especially since the hotbar scroll bind does not work while using an item.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

especially since the hotbar scroll bind does not work while using an item.

When you give autoswing to weapons that don't have autoswing by default, which includes whips, you can switch weapons while actively holding down left click. I don't know whether the autofire option enables this or not, but Feral Claws definitely does.

 

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

When you give autoswing to weapons that don't have autoswing by default, which includes whips, you can switch weapons while actively holding down left click

For me, I am able to use specific hotkeys (ie the number keys) while swinging with feral claws, but assigning a button to "cycle left" or "cycle right" in hotbar controls does nothing while swinging. I feel like being able to use the cycle left or right functions would make three or four whips easier to use, as you would only need two hotkeys (one for the furthest right whip and one to cycle left).

 

[Shyguymask]

Updated some placements.

Stardust Cell: A to A-
Terraprisma: A+ to A
Kaleidoscope: A+ to A-
Spooky Armor: A+ to S-

Pillar mobbing isn't as difficult or long as in 1.4.3, Mage/Summoner hybrid is very strong Post-Plantera and Kaleidoscope just isn't particularly impressive or contributory in 1.4.4.

 

[Shyguymask]

More changes.

Desert Tiger: S- to A
Firecracker: S- to A+
Snapthorn: S to S-

When it comes to gearing up for Moon Events & Empress of Light, I find it more preferable to beat Duke Fishron with Eclipse & Hardmode Dungeon gear (pretty easy for a veteran player) for a hybrid loadout rather than go out of my way to grind for Desert Key. Desert Tiger isn't even a remotely useful minion without whips. Even worse, when qwerty made me DPS test Desert Tiger with Witch Broom I realized its AI becomes crappy when flying on a mount in the air. And since Firecracker is entirely reliant on Desert Tiger for its Post-Plantera performance, it drops too. As for Snapthorn, the latest update heavily nerfed its chance of inflicting Poisoned as well as reducing the duration.

Things should be more stable from here on out... probably.

 

[JeraldGaming2888]

Which is better for the mech bosses? Sanguine, Optic, or Blade?

 

[Shyguymask]

Which is better for the mech bosses? Sanguine, Optic, or Blade?

I don't know yet. But my assumption as of now is that before Durendal's, Blade is on average on par with Sanguine Staff on mech bosses depending on how aggressive you are with whips. Optic Staff overall outshines Sanguine Staff post-1mech though.

 

[Sprite]

Pardon the semi-unrelated question... Could you perhaps indulge us about minion iframes, and which cap out at what numbers? All that I know right now in terms of the local iframes and DPS, is that 3 Enchanted Sword summons cap out their unique iframes.