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FAR TOO MANY NERFS

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
Waaaah, devs don't let me exploit oversights anymore!
While I always thought the Reaver Shark was a bad idea and I think it's the developer's right to change it, you can't call something an "oversight" when it passed through seven different revisions of the game unchanged.

This isn't correcting an "oversight;" this is saying, "that exploit we deliberately added to the game that people exploited for half a decade? Yeah, we really shouldn't have done that."
 

brbonfire

Terrarian
I never actually used the reaver shark, tbh. I fish for the Angler and that's about it. Why stand with a fishing rod when you could be killing things for their drops instead?

That being said, it was a nice little quirk you know? Something cool you could find if you knew how. A little speedrunning trick, a skip for the seasoned veteran. Because having to hack down the BoC and EoW every single world you start, assuming you were the kind of person who made lots of worlds? It was harmless. Why not just make it harder to obtain, require specific bait? Chum shows that that kind of tomfoolery is possible. Having a way to skip bosses isn't a bad thing in of itself, and sticking to a dev vision of how a sandbox game is meant to be played... doesn't... really jive all that well with the idea of a sandbox game in the first place.

To put it another way, why shouldn't creative workarounds to game challenges be allowed to exist?
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
I never actually used the reaver shark, tbh. I fish for the Angler and that's about it. Why stand with a fishing rod when you could be killing things for their drops instead?

That being said, it was a nice little quirk you know? Something cool you could find if you knew how. A little speedrunning trick, a skip for the seasoned veteran. Because having to hack down the BoC and EoW every single world you start, assuming you were the kind of person who made lots of worlds? It was harmless. Why not just make it harder to obtain, require specific bait? Chum shows that that kind of tomfoolery is possible. Having a way to skip bosses isn't a bad thing in of itself, and sticking to a dev vision of how a sandbox game is meant to be played... doesn't... really jive all that well with the idea of a sandbox game in the first place.

To put it another way, why shouldn't creative workarounds to game challenges be allowed to exist?
Because it's not especially creative.

This isn't like hoiking, which was a "mechanic" created by an arbitrary interaction of probably disparate pieces of code that has tons of varied uses. It's not like building an arena for a boss, which often involves understanding the boss's behavior and devising clever solutions to take advantage of their movement patterns. This isn't even like using explosives to quickly get to Shadow Orbs/Crimson Hearts without the appropriate pickaxe.

You do the thing, you get to skip to Hardmode. "The thing" isn't even hard to do: you get a rod, you get some bait, you go to a place, and stand there, waiting for the right thing to appear. There's nothing clever or creative about it. It may take a while, but it's not intellectually challenging or physically demanding.

Veterans already have a way to skip to Hardmode: bring a Nightmare Pickaxe from another world. It's simple and effective, and it is no less clever than "go fishing in the ocean". The only difference between that and the old Reaver Shark is that some people have defined this as "cheating." Even though it doesn't involve any manipulation of the game itself.

As for requiring a specific bait, well... how do you get that bait? Where would it be located, or what would drop it? The principle reason why people want the thing is to avoid playing pre-Hardmode. So if this bait is at all intensive to find (a rare item in the Cavern layer, for example), then you may as well just play pre-Hardmode normally.
 

Jostabeere

Terrarian
While I always thought the Reaver Shark was a bad idea and I think it's the developer's right to change it, you can't call something an "oversight" when it passed through seven different revisions of the game unchanged.

This isn't correcting an "oversight;" this is saying, "that exploit we deliberately added to the game that people exploited for half a decade? Yeah, we really shouldn't have done that."
Not only the shark. Stuff like lasers not passing trough blocks. The shark was just bad design. Imo they should've made it a hardmode drop instead. It makes no sense to have a second Gold pick. Instead make it a hardmode pre-altar pick.
 

Tyrian3k

Duke Fishron
Not only the shark. Stuff like lasers not passing trough blocks. The shark was just bad design. Imo they should've made it a hardmode drop instead. It makes no sense to have a second Gold pick. Instead make it a hardmode pre-altar pick.
So you want to move it from one location where it's useless to another where it's useless. Something like a hardmode pre-altar pick doesn't even exist since all hardmode picks are post altar.
 

brbonfire

Terrarian
Because it's not especially creative.

This isn't like hoiking, which was a "mechanic" created by an arbitrary interaction of probably disparate pieces of code that has tons of varied uses. It's not like building an arena for a boss, which often involves understanding the boss's behavior and devising clever solutions to take advantage of their movement patterns. This isn't even like using explosives to quickly get to Shadow Orbs/Crimson Hearts without the appropriate pickaxe.

You do the thing, you get to skip to Hardmode. "The thing" isn't even hard to do: you get a rod, you get some bait, you go to a place, and stand there, waiting for the right thing to appear. There's nothing clever or creative about it. It may take a while, but it's not intellectually challenging or physically demanding.

Veterans already have a way to skip to Hardmode: bring a Nightmare Pickaxe from another world. It's simple and effective, and it is no less clever than "go fishing in the ocean". The only difference between that and the old Reaver Shark is that some people have defined this as "cheating." Even though it doesn't involve any manipulation of the game itself.

As for requiring a specific bait, well... how do you get that bait? Where would it be located, or what would drop it? The principle reason why people want the thing is to avoid playing pre-Hardmode. So if this bait is at all intensive to find (a rare item in the Cavern layer, for example), then you may as well just play pre-Hardmode normally.
Yeah, the Reaver Shark did need to be changed. It was a pretty boring and uncreative way of doing it how it stood. And TBH if I'm just going to bring stuff from an existing world, why not just bring some endgame gear and a guide voodoo doll, drill down and kill the WoF for instant hardmode world? Obviously, if you import items this entire discussion becomes moot - but assuming you don't and assuming you like working through pre-hardmode, the idea of there being ways to skip bosses if you know how is one that should be encouraged for the reasons discussed.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
And TBH if I'm just going to bring stuff from an existing world, why not just bring some endgame gear and a guide voodoo doll, drill down and kill the WoF for instant hardmode world?
Because you want to experience pre-Hardmode play? Because you want to get to know your world before the infections start setting in? Because you want to harvest things from the pre-Hardmode worlds before Hardmode enemies take over everywhere?

Before Journey Mode, when I started a new world, I always gave myself a Gold Pickaxe and Axe, so I wouldn't have to deal with ultra-slow mining speeds. But I didn't give myself a Nightmare Pickaxe, because that breaks progression. I gave myself a Mirror because seriously, how can you play Terraria without one. But I didn't give myself even a basic grappling hook, because I felt that this was part of game progression.

It's not hard to decide for yourself what parts of the game you want to experience and what parts you don't. And there is a tool for doing that: dropping off higher-tier stuff in a virgin world. There does not need to be a mechanic in a virgin world to skip a single part of progression.

the idea of there being ways to skip bosses if you know how is one that should be encouraged for the reasons discussed.
Imagine there was a Terraria 1.2.4 without the Reaver Shark. Now imagine that 1.4.0 added the Reaver Shark as it currently exists.

Can you honestly say you would be making the same argument? That this newly added item should be buffed to the point where you can mine Hellstone?

After all, this entire discussion is really, really specific. I don't see posts saying that the developers should encourage players to have alternate ways to enter Hardmode without killing the WoF. I don't see posts saying that the developers should add ways to summon Plantera without killing the Mech bosses. I don't see posts saying that the developers should add a way to summon the Moon Lord without even once having killed the Lunatic Cultist.

The only reason we're having this discussion at all is that it's a thing we used to be able to do.
 

brbonfire

Terrarian
Because you want to experience pre-Hardmode play? Because you want to get to know your world before the infections start setting in? Because you want to harvest things from the pre-Hardmode worlds before Hardmode enemies take over everywhere?

Before Journey Mode, when I started a new world, I always gave myself a Gold Pickaxe and Axe, so I wouldn't have to deal with ultra-slow mining speeds. But I didn't give myself a Nightmare Pickaxe, because that breaks progression. I gave myself a Mirror because seriously, how can you play Terraria without one. But I didn't give myself even a basic grappling hook, because I felt that this was part of game progression.

It's not hard to decide for yourself what parts of the game you want to experience and what parts you don't. And there is a tool for doing that: dropping off higher-tier stuff in a virgin world. There does not need to be a mechanic in a virgin world to skip a single part of progression.



Imagine there was a Terraria 1.2.4 without the Reaver Shark. Now imagine that 1.4.0 added the Reaver Shark as it currently exists.

Can you honestly say you would be making the same argument? That this newly added item should be buffed to the point where you can mine Hellstone?

After all, this entire discussion is really, really specific. I don't see posts saying that the developers should encourage players to have alternate ways to enter Hardmode without killing the WoF. I don't see posts saying that the developers should add ways to summon Plantera without killing the Mech bosses. I don't see posts saying that the developers should add a way to summon the Moon Lord without even once having killed the Lunatic Cultist.

The only reason we're having this discussion at all is that it's a thing we used to be able to do.
I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this. We seem to in places be saying the same thing? The example I gave was how bringing progression breaking items in should be discounted from the conversation because well, you can and always have been able to bring whatever you want into a new world, like for example gold tools a nightmare pickaxe or indeed endgame gear. And of course this a niche conversation, I'm only really bothered by the happiness stuff and barely even used the shark in the first place.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is this: 1) The Reaver Shark change was excessive, and it is now essentially useless. Not the first useless item in Terraria, probably won't be the last even at this late stage in development. But it'd be nice if it did have a usable niche - just not the one it originally had. Mining "soft" blocks with two hits per swing was mentioned somewhere...
2) That, however, isn't as important as what the change represents. There is such a thing as someone opening a brand new world and seeing how fast they can hit Hardmode, without bringing anything in to help. From speedrunners, to people simply looking to challenge themselves, etc. Niche yes, but it's a way to play the game that the Reaver Shark exemplified. All of these are being removed or nerfed so that the game is played the way it was "meant" to be played.
3) There's always room to explore in not only the world itself, but the items you find and the ways to do something. It's always a good moment in a game when you figure out how to do something more efficiently than the "intended way", and outsmarting the game in the process - the beauty of this is that the game may not even necessarily be outsmarted! The entire eventuality could have been foreseen during development and an alternate way added to solve the problem. Things like the Reaver Shark, while poorly implemented as they were, were a step towards that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that having more than one way to skin the proverbial cat makes for a better game overall, instead of trying to tightly control player progression.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
1) The Reaver Shark change was excessive, and it is now essentially useless. Not the first useless item in Terraria, probably won't be the last even at this late stage in development. But it'd be nice if it did have a usable niche - just not the one it originally had. Mining "soft" blocks with two hits per swing was mentioned somewhere...
That's the thing though; there isn't really room for a pickaxe that can't mine Infected blocks or Hellstone, yet is somehow better than the Gold pickaxe. I mean, would you fish up the Reaver Shark just to mine slightly faster?

2) That, however, isn't as important as what the change represents. There is such a thing as someone opening a brand new world and seeing how fast they can hit Hardmode, without bringing anything in to help. From speedrunners, to people simply looking to challenge themselves, etc. Niche yes, but it's a way to play the game that the Reaver Shark exemplified. All of these are being removed or nerfed so that the game is played the way it was "meant" to be played.

3) There's always room to explore in not only the world itself, but the items you find and the ways to do something. It's always a good moment in a game when you figure out how to do something more efficiently than the "intended way", and outsmarting the game in the process - the beauty of this is that the game may not even necessarily be outsmarted! The entire eventuality could have been foreseen during development and an alternate way added to solve the problem.
You seem to be ignoring half of the post you quoted. If the Reaver Shark never existed, would you be saying that it should exist? And if so, why aren't you saying that we shouldn't have other alternative progression methods? Nobody's saying that we should have an alternate way to activate Plantera spawning, or to activate the Hardmode dungeon or the Lunear Events.

It's only a "problem" to be "solved" because we used to be able to do it.
 

Nimblentfox

Terrarian
That's the thing though; there isn't really room for a pickaxe that can't mine Infected blocks or Hellstone, yet is somehow better than the Gold pickaxe. I mean, would you fish up the Reaver Shark just to mine slightly faster?
At least, I do. Able to mine just Stone or lower at faster rate ..... somewhat Pickaxe Axe before hardmode? Sign me in. That alone have hell lot of use for me.
There are lot of way to make this poor shark still useful one without broke the game like before. They just go uber lazy route. Faster use time, longer reach, stupidly high KB at cost of dmg...

Edit:
In fact, I usually skip silver/gold pickaxe and grab Nightmare/Crimson one before Reaver exist. Because I didn't feel like they are worthty at all. Reaver do one thing to me - faster stone mining. (and save some bomb for Corrupt / Obsidian) By the time I reach Underworld via hell drop, I should already own NM/CS stuff while try to mine some Hellstone, so it don't matter for me.

If people find a way to skip thing so easy, some will do, while other may not. Just like your guy say about bring something from old world. Reaver may be too good, but didn't deserved to be another gold pickaxe at all. I pity gold pickaxe at this point, and silver one ..... your existence is no more than mushroom.
 
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XGhozt

Terrarian
I'm fine with the nerfs. It makes it easier for on-boarding new players and should help the game in the long run. Ultimately people looking for a tougher experience could get that through
community mods or public servers.
 

lesnor

Spazmatism
Thanks DEVS for splitting the community. These changes wer not needed after 5 YEARS. Your pushing the older players away(whitch i feel is intended to get more sales since otherworld failed) all because we wer not playing by YOUR RULES. This game is dead to many of us now. GOOD JOB.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
Thanks DEVS for splitting the community. These changes wer not needed after 5 YEARS. Your pushing the older players away(whitch i feel is intended to get more sales since otherworld failed) all because we wer not playing by YOUR RULES. This game is dead to many of us now. GOOD JOB.
If skipping pre-Hardmode was the only thing that kept you playing the game, are you sure you were even enjoying the game? Maybe you were just tired of the game.

Also, you can't speak for all of "the older players". I don't much care for NPC happiness, but nothing in 1.4 has pushed me away from the game.

Indeed, I found one "nerf" to be quite refreshing: being unable to mine meteorite with bombs. It was refreshing because it made something that I trivialized into something that required thought again. And then I remembered that I have block-swap, which made the whole thing so much more tolerable. It wasn't trivial (my meteorite happened to hit a Living Tree's top, which was high enough to spawn tons of Harpies, which apparently don't turn into Meteor Heads???), but it wasn't a tedious task.
 

brbonfire

Terrarian
That's the thing though; there isn't really room for a pickaxe that can't mine Infected blocks or Hellstone, yet is somehow better than the Gold pickaxe. I mean, would you fish up the Reaver Shark just to mine slightly faster?
It'd be an improvement over its current state, and actually give a reason to appreciate getting it rather than selling it as junk as soon as you catch it. If you're going to just stand there with a fishing rod looking like a prat rather than exploring and doing other actually fun things you should at least get something out of whatever you fish up. As of now the item could be removed and fishing odds adjusted and you'd get more value out of fishing overall.


You seem to be ignoring half of the post you quoted. If the Reaver Shark never existed, would you be saying that it should exist? And if so, why aren't you saying that we shouldn't have other alternative progression methods? Nobody's saying that we should have an alternate way to activate Plantera spawning, or to activate the Hardmode dungeon or the Lunear Events.

It's only a "problem" to be "solved" because we used to be able to do it.
No, because if there's a progression skip, it shouldn't come from fishing, IMO. I'm by no means a game designer or anything like that, but I can point out things that should exist even if I can't give you a fully fleshed out design or suggestion for it. The Reaver Shark needed a nerf to its progression capability. However, taken in its totality with all the other nerfs, it more or less amounts to a strict enforcement of dev-intended progression, which goes against the spirit of a sandbox game.

Having ways around "mandatory" progression if you know the trick is not a bad thing. It just needs something more engaging than the Reaver Shark. If I'm really, truly not allowed to make this argument without offering an alternate suggestion, so be it, I guess I'll throw together something after playing 1.4 a bit more later if I remember to.
I was using this thread to express my concerns over the enforcement of playstyle and progression by the devs, because it was a place with all the relevant "nerfs" being discussed. I used the Reaver Shark as an example for my thoughts on the matter.
 

Terrasoldier17

Official Terrarian
I really never used the things that have been... "balanced"
The only thing I used was the Martion invasion one...
So how are you supposed to survive them? I still die end game with the house up.

But fishing was the one that hit me!
I always used that in hardmode because finding the ores takes WAY TO LONG with a Crimson world! The altars spawn weirdly for me and before, they spawned all the way down the shaft! So when hardmode came, I smashed the alters and found enough Palladium/Cobalt ore for about 15 bars and I couldn't find anymore! I even went to the Jungle to search for a bunch but that didn't work! So I always used fishing in a Crimson world all the time.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
But fishing was the one that hit me!
I always used that in hardmode because finding the ores takes WAY TO LONG with a Crimson world! The altars spawn weirdly for me and before, they spawned all the way down the shaft! So when hardmode came, I smashed the alters and found enough Palladium/Cobalt ore for about 15 bars and I couldn't find anymore! I even went to the Jungle to search for a bunch but that didn't work! So I always used fishing in a Crimson world all the time.
Fishing still works. What doesn't work is stockpiling a bunch of crates pre-Hardmode, then openning them all up during Hardmode. You simply have to do the stockpiling in Hardmode itself.
 

Nicol Bolas

Terrarian
However, taken in its totality with all the other nerfs, it more or less amounts to a strict enforcement of dev-intended progression, which goes against the spirit of a sandbox game
Terraria has always had "strict enforcement of dev-intended progression". Different parts of the game may have had more or less "strict enforcement", and some parts may have multiple ways to go about progression, but it's always been a fundamental part of the Terraria experience. Terraria has always been a hybrid of sandbox and Metroidvania, and the latter means that, on some level, you have stages of progression that have to be crossed.

The Dungeon Guardian is a method for keeping people out of the Dungeon before you beat Skeletron. What is that other than "strict enforcement of dev-intended progression"? The Jungle Temple's super-blocks and unpassable (without exploits) door keeps you out of it until you beat Plantera. What is that other than "strict enforcement of dev-intended progression"?

You are complaining about something that has always been a part of Terraria. That's my point, and it's a point you don't seem to want to engage with.

You can argue that the balance has shifted too far in one direction, but you're going to need more evidence of that than just nerfing the pre-Hardmode bypass fish.
 

Jostabeere

Terrarian
Thanks DEVS for splitting the community. These changes wer not needed after 5 YEARS. Your pushing the older players away(whitch i feel is intended to get more sales since otherworld failed) all because we wer not playing by YOUR RULES. This game is dead to many of us now. GOOD JOB.
Seriously, gimme a break. Stop crying so dramatically. Seriously, what is wrong with people who cry about those things? "Pushing older players away? Seriously?
What player will stop the game because he has to play a bit differently for the first 2 or so hours?
You have a serious issue with your gaming preferences if a change to one pre-hardmore pickaxe makes the game dead for you. Or the fact that fishing gets delayed by an hour or two.
Wow, just wow. This is just foolery or straight trolling on a whole new interdimensional level.
 
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